Hey guys I was talking to a salesman about the okatava's and is the mc012 and mk012 the same thing? He said one replaced the other? I told I was looking for a hyper cap and the usual dealies.... Thanks again...
Neil

Neil, sorry your question didn't get answered here sooner. Maybe you already got your answer.

I don't know if one of those model numbers replaces the other, but they are basically the same mic.

It would be interesting to see/hear if there are any differences in those mics... as I've understood it up till now, they are the same.

Beas got some cool black ones up in Canada. If you get 'em down here they're silver...

Thanks Matt, no one got back to me, I thought maybe it was too stupid question... I wasn't sure about if was, kinda but not 100 percent, I was reading past posts and did contact those places bryan talked about, but they don't do the single hyper with the mic... but I should definitely ask for the black... Thanks again
Matt...
N

AVR will sell one capsule sets (cardoid and pad) or three capsule sets (pad, omni, cardoid and hyper) in single or supposedly matched pairs. Choice of finish is matte black or silver.

I just got off the phone with Jason.

ARG well there goes that idea. Thanks for the legwork guys...so Neil, I am in the same boat as you. Have you decided what you will be doing now?
Thanks,
Rob

Thanks Bryan, I called Jason and they have it... I called him on Saturday but he wasn't in...

Rob they sell it exactly as bryan says...
one capsule sets (cardoid and pad) or three capsule sets (pad, omni, cardoid and hyper) the best deal is to get the three...
mean wanted the hyper, i was going to scrape buy using my onboard cam mic for ambient, but this way goes i can use the omin and do it properly.... whatcha going to do, Rob?

The difference between the kit of 3 capsules and the single hyper is only $50. If you did want to save then but one kit and one single. That way you'd have 2 cardoid for stereo and be able to mix the remaining capsules between the 2 preamps.

I get my Shoeps mk41 tomorrow (i'm such a gear slut ;) I'll have to do a comparison. The standard foley test , heavy rocks glass drop the ice and pour many fingers of scotch. This is followed by another glass, rocks , popping a can of club soda and then pouring. (The soda is in a separate glass, I mix internally)

Following this, some witty pros.

All kidding aside, Matt G did this and it blew me away. He actually mixed good whiskey with coke though (shudder!) The ice, the glug, glug of the booze, the sharp pop of the soda pop can and the fizz when opening and pouring the mix really show a fair bit about the mic.

The tests that I've done used either a very good single malt scotch or a top blend.

Now Whiskey has to go with coke, otherwise it's damned awful...Well ok, Jacks with coke and that's technically Bourbon I guess.

Bryan, isn't the MK41 the big mamma of the microphone world - used by them fancy buggers in the movies?

Can't wait to hear the tests if it is.


Cheers
Aaron

Hey Neil, just so you know... I'd suggest getting one complete Matte Black kit to start... Unless you can afford two kits... Or maybe even one complete kit and one cardioid only kit? (As Beas suggested... but if it's only $50 difference... get the 3 cap kits.)

Using two Oktava's for stereo works great! What I did was buy (2) cardioid cap kits, but almost immediately I wanted for the hyper cap... so then I ordered that...

As it turns out, in my experience, the most common use for the Oktava is going to be one mic at a time, with either the cardioid or hyper cap. Even at times when I could easily use two mics, I'm mainly using one Oktava for primarily dialog, or else for a second track to capture mostly ambience. Meaning Tram on my speaker, and Oktava cardioid capturing location on channel 2. *OR* I'll use the Oktava hyper boomed/pointed at my speaker and then internal mic (turned up) for location.

Of course when you really want to capture an acoustical space you'll enjoy what you hear from two Oktava's in an XY or ORTF configuration. So face it, eventually you'll be in the gear slut cult yourself! You'll probably want two complete Oktava kits whether you think you need 'em now or later... It's just a question of what you can afford now. I paid $73 shipped for one hyper capsule... After I eventually complete two whole kits I will have been better off just getting the kits complete to start. Plus I coulda' had black.

I would like to see every DV shooter with one killer mic for everyday use or at least for special ocassions. That's where I'd put a mic such as an Mk41... It's a KILLER mic that should kick ass in ANY use.

As far as Oktava's go. We're blessed to have some pretty decent mics available at such a fantastic price (for what we get.) I wouldn't put an Oktava in the "killer" category... but they're cheap enough that you can get two for good stereo... and fortunately they're so cheap that it's worth it just to have a spare for the times when you DON'T care about stereo, which will be often.

You may not realize it yet... but you're about to step out onto a slippery slope... The Oktava is a good "initiation" to the world of better DV sound... Oh, don't get me wrong! It's a fun ride... but as soon as you hear how good the Oktava is compared to a lot of other mics, you'll start fantasizing about "perfection" that you never thought possible. Just ask Beas. He sucked me in... and I'm hot on his heals for a mic such as the omnipotent Mk41.

If I could go back in time with even one of the little Oktava's I'd reshoot almost every project I did before getting them.

Welcome to GSA (Gear Sluts Anonymous)...

Neil, i'm not sure what I am going to do now...more research i guess... :(

(a dissapointed) Rob

Aaron
It is indeed. I'll do a test as outlined. What self repecting Kiwi would adulterate the breath of life with bloody coke. That's the kind of thing a Canadian would do. Not even a whindging pomme would do that! Oy vey, the pain!

Bryan. Excellent, can't wait!

Us Kiwis are a little less civilised in the whiskey department. I do remember almost having a heart attack when I was holidaying in England many years ago and walked into a small village pub and said "Could I have a whiskey and coke please" and he goes which one and proceeded to swing his arm like he was unveiling a wall, and,err, well, unveiled a whole damned wall of whiskeys!

Aaron

Bourbon and Coke(especially Makers Mark) would sound really nice recorded with an Octava. Skotch and any mixer would produce terrible audio, and the soundmnan who tried should be fired immediately.

What is Skotch?
Scots Whiskey or Scotch is an aquired taste and doesn't go well with anything but water or carbonated water.

Makers Mark and other decent Bourbon's should be enjoyed whatever way the buyer wants. I prefer to savor the actual taste.

If I adulterate it with coke I should use a cheap whiskey and use a low cost Chinese microphone.

Actually the ice clinking in the glass, the pop of the can opening and the rush of effervesance when you pour the product makes a really interesting test.

Thanks Matt for the detailed rundown... I probably going to go with the 3 cap set in black, I always thought omin was good for ambient, now guys wanting me hungering for more equip, which means more money to spend, damn!

<<<-- Originally posted by Bryan Beasleigh :
What is Skotch?
-->>>

I guess I recorded a little too much Johnny Walker last night.

You should record some Bagpiper or McDowels #1. It's enuff to gag a maggot. Made in India. They can't even legally call it scotch.

I don't think that I have the proper mic for that.

Tested all three capsules available for the Mk012 set on the same mike to see the difference in off axis rejection and tone.

Please know that I am an audio engineer with very good ears and about 30 years experience.

The difference between the hyper cardoid and the regular cardoid is nearly non existant. Very very little, and insignificant in practice. Yes, It'll show up on a graph or VU meter, but BARELY.

The hyper-cardoid will cut a little tiny bit more of off axis noise than the regular cardoid, but practically speaking, it is so little I could only see this on a VU meter. The sound of both capsules is identical. In fact, if you look at both capsules, you could not tell them apart in construction save the little yellow dot inside, aparently the only way the factory can tell them apart either.

The Omni capsule DOES sound significantly different than the other two. It also does have a much wider pick-up pattern, hense, prone to pick up camera noise and off screen noise. It might be good if you are trying to record ambient sound, since the pattern is very wide. Generally it has a sound that I would never want to use-- it is a more hollow sound, and not natural sounding, and would need a fair amount of EQ to sound right for a human voice. If I were recording ambient sound, I might be more tempted to use a large diaphram condenser, like my (admittedly expensive) Neuman TLM103, though this is a much bigger and heavier mike.

I have a hard time justifying paying $199 for the 3 capsule kit, when you can get the 1 capsule you'll use for the majority, if not all of your work, for half that amount. If you are set on spending $199, get a stereo pair or 2 $99 1 capsule mikes.

In terms of general quality, this microphone is an astonishing bargain.
No, it doesn't have the output of my $1000 TLM103, but the TLM will not fit on my camera.

I have owned an ME66, which is the broadcast industry standard-- but remember that to a NEWS CREW, a shotgun and off-axis rejection is as important to their application in noisy public environments as is actual sound quality. Now, I've been comparing the MK012 to my Neuman, which is in another class than the ME66 altogether in terms of sound and response-- and the Octava sounds damn good, and from many accounts many prefer it to the Seinheiser standard. I am VERY happy with the Octava at a fraction of the price of anything else.

Electronic Musician Magazine did a VERY in depth comparison between various condensers, and the Octava held it's own against mikes costing 6 times as much, and some liked it best in many situations.
See: http://industryclick.com/magazinearticle.asp?releaseid=5572&magazinearticleid=65282&siteid=15&magazineid=33

Neil... I'd give that one more day of careful testing. It's just my experience, but in my use I found the hyper to be way more like a short shotgun then the cardioid is.

I packed the cardioid cap away 'cause the hyper did what I wanted the Oktava for in the first place... make a good sounding little mic that works almost as good as a short shotgun.

If you didn't buy two mics then you'll have a hard time identifying the difference in cardioid/hyper as you switch out the caps and then repeat whatever test you're doing.

I took two mics gaffer taped together running stereo into a pair of 7506 headphones... then as I experimented in several ways it was easy to hear that the hyper attenuated off axis sounds substantially more then the cardioid.

I found the cardioid to be pretty much an omni with a reduced rear hemisphere... whereas the hyper really needs to be pointed at the source.

I spent a couple hours testing these suckers tonight, and checked with a very accurate bar VU to make sure my mind wasn't playing tricks on me.

Yes, there was a very slight difference in off axis rejection between the two cardoids- the best test was having a TV set at low volume in another room behind the mike.

I also tested with normal speaking at 90 and 45 degrees to the mike.

The difference was slight regardless of the off axis sound.

I mean, it's there, but if you've got a decent level to begin with, which you should, the difference is going to be impossible to guage with the human ear.
MY opinion.

Thanks

I've also found that in less than ideal spaces the hyper cap picks up far less of the room. I don't think you would notice the difference if you were miking an acoustic guitar from 4", but if you have them about 18" over an interview subject, weth the rear facing the furthest surface, you can hear a substantial reduction in ambient noise and room reflections.

Well, actually, that's how I tested the mikes- actually about 30" from my mouth, with TV from the rear 3 rooms away--

a difference, but not a great deal.

Also tested off axis fan-- same.

Here's the actual numbers, the difference according to these specs is 4 DB. Frankly, I think this is optimistic, and my tests don't show this much. I might actually use a test tone and verify what I'm seeing...

Technical specifications:
MC012 (011) MICROPHONES

Mic type: Small diaphragm condenser
Phantom voltage required: ............................ 48 +\- 2V
Full impedance, module: .............. less than 300 ohms
Weighted SPL (ref. DIN 45412): ..................... 18 dBA
Maximum SPL in 250-8000Hz range,
(less than 0.5% THD): ...................................... 130 db
Weight: ................................................................... 70 gr.

Free field sensitivity at 1KHz: ...................... 10 mV/Pa
Free field sensitivity roll off from
40Hz to 20KHz should not exceed: ................. +\- 3 db

The difference in free field sensitivity between O° and 90° should be as follows:

For omnidirectional capsule:
in 40-1000 Hz range: .......................no more than 2 db
in 1-5 KHz range: .............................no more than 4 db
in 5-8 KHz range: .............................no more than 8 db

For cardioid capsule:
in 250-8000 Hz range: ......................no less than 4 db

For hypercardioid capsule:
in 250-5000 Hz range: .................. ...no less than 8 db

Average sensitivity difference between
O° and 180° for cardioid capsule
in 63-12500 Hz range: ........................................ 16 db

I'd say just go with the cardioid set if it'll suit your use. Ultimately all mic purchases come down to what you want and nobody should make decisions based on the opinions of others.

The only reason I'm even posting this right now is because I think quite a few people stumble across these threads and I want them to read a rebuttle to your statement that the difference is almost non-existant.

For me the difference in rejection outweighs the extra cost of the hyper cap. I paid $73 (shipped) for a SINGLE hyper cap 'cause I only had the cardioid kits...

I repeated my earlier tests before adding this post and I can see where you may feel the cost of the additional hyper isn't worth it.

When I plug the two mics into the dvx and then pop on the 7506s it just sounds like somebody is panning a balance knob off-center as I point the two mics at, and then away from, the source... The sound "moves" about half-way to whatever ear is getting sound from the cardioid.

I'll agree that the value of this degree of directivity is subjective... it isn't like the cancellation you get from a medium shotgun, but also I can tell that it would be REALLY hard to even tell the difference without a direct A/B comparison.

Believe it or not, the Oktavas sound A LOT like the 4073a... In a double blind test it would take a while to tell which is which... Sonically they're 90% the same mic... So then it comes down to directionality/off-axis cancellation. The 4073a is maybe 15% more directional then the the Oktava hyper which is about 15% more directional then the Oktava cardioid.

Is 15% woth $455? I decided "no"... Is it worth $73? I say "yes".

[I should add that the 4073 is also significantly more sensitive then the Oktavas and that the levels had to be set to equal output. If you're cam needs a hot signal then the value of the 4073a (over the Oktava) goes up considerably... In a dvx it's easy to balance levels with plenty of mic pre to spare... and then it's hard to tell much difference.]

Okay-- I like to be accurate when I give feedback, so I ran more detailed tests on the difference between the Octava capsules. I will REVISE MY OPINION- but not a lot. Essentially, my more extensive testing gave me the same results as before concerning off axis filtering. The Hyper remains more sensitive at greater distances than the regular cardoid- using a test tone.

Here's what I found- the operation and difference of the Cardoid and Hypercardoid differs depending on the distance from the sound source, providing this is an A440 test tone from a single speaker as my source. Using human speaking voice from a speaker, its a less audible difference- I couldn't tell the two mikes apart significantly at any distance. It may be that the test tone reflected considerably more off the walls of the room and this affected the apparent DB level on the meters, setting up interference patterns that showed up as differing levels from each mike. It would seem that voice sampling would be more important than recording a steady 440hz test tone, and ultimately, this is what convinced me that the difference between the hyper cardoid and the regular cardoid was very small indeed.

I placed the mikes three distances from the source, a steady test tone, common distances when using a mike in conjuction with a camera- 24", 36", and 64". AT 36", I changed the angle of the mike 90 degrees, first pointing at the hardwood floor, then up towards a 10 foot ceiling. I left the mike in stand in place, and only unscrewed one capsule and screwed in the other without moving anything.

Ref. CARDOID: At 24" the regular cardoid measured -3 DB, at 90 degrees towards the side this dropped about 4 DB to -6 or -7 DB. Same as the official test.

HYPER CARDOID: AT 24" the hyper cardoid was equally sensitive at -3, at 90 degrees to the side it dropped about 8 or 9DB to -11, -12 DB. Again, this confirmed the official numbers. This isn't a great amount of difference, but some.

CONCLUSION at 24"-- about a 4 DB greater cut at 90 degrees for the hyper-cardoid over the regular cardoid.
A difference, but not really significant, although somewhat apparent on the VU. The ear may or may not pick up this difference. If someone is talking in the room off camera, both mikes are still going to pick this up, and the difference won't be that great- you are still going to have to tell these noisy people to shut up (!)

******

HYPER: At 36" it gets interesting, the hyper cardoid was measured at -3DB as before, pointed 90 degrees towards the floor, it dropped -3 to measure at -6DB. Pointed 90 degrees towards the higher ceiling, it dropped an additional -3 and gave me -9 DB. This is less cut for the Hyper at 36" than at 24". I would have guessed just the opposite. This changed, however, depending where in the room the mikes were placed, tipping me off that interference patterns were having an effect. In some locations, the difference in the sensitivity of the mike made much less difference.

Reg. CARDOID: At 36" the regular cardoid is 6 DB less sensitive than the hyper, giving me only -9DB of sound. 90 degrees towards the floor, it dropped -2 and gave me a -11DB reading, towards the ceiling another dropp of -2, and a reading of -13 DB.

CONCLUSION at 36"- The hyper is can be more sensitive at 36" than the regular cardoid, although the off axis filtering is actually not as great than at 24"-- both have about the same off axis filtering at this distance from the source.

*****

Reg CARDOID: At 64" the reg. cardoid still registers about -9DB, drops -3 and gives -12DB pointed at ceiling or floor.

HYPER CARDOID: At 64" the hyper drops about-3 same as at 36" when pointed at the floor, and drops another 1 DB pointed at the ceiling.

CONCLUSION at 64" The hyper cardoid remains about 6 DB more sensitive at 64" than the regular cardoid. It filters just an inkling more off axis than at 36" when pointed at the ceiling rather than the floor.


OVERALL CONCLUSION of CARDOID VERSUS HYPER CARDOID: The difference between the cardoid and hypercardoid at distances greater than 24"- with a test tone and using a VU meter, is that the hyper cardoid gives you about 6 DB more sound, allowing a lower mike input level at the camera. But I notice, this wasn't always and consistantly true. There were places in the test room where I got different results. When I tested a speaking voice out of a speaker, or off a TV, the mikes were much more closely matched in sensitivity. AT 24", both mikes were equally sensitive.

From my own impression- by ear- as well as by meter- the off axis drop off and rejection is not that different between the two mike capsules at 90 degrees-- a little, but not significant at 36" and greater. Pretty much the same findings as before.

Let's think this through-- AT 64", you have a signal coming in at -3DB on the hyper straight on towards the mike. To get the same signal strength on the regular cardoid at this distance- worse case scenario- you have to boost the input +6 DB. Now, off axis sounds drop -3DB on the Hyper, fine. Off axis sounds drop the same -3DB on the regular cardoid, but to get the same straight on level from your source, you've boosted the input +6 DB, which would have the same effect on the level of ALL sound sources, including the off axis. So, the off axis sound levels, that previously measured -12 DB, now measure -6 DB, exactly the same as the Hyper cardoid. By using the Hyper cardoid instead of simply boosting the regular cardoid signal, you've actually gained nothing in reducing off-axis sounds.

I just can't see the point of the hyper cardoid capsule on the Octava, in the end, the difference is more academic than anything. I couldn't tell the difference without using a VU meter at all, despite trying for several HOURS.

The OMNI capsule, however, has significant differences in pickup pattern from the two cardoids, there is little drop off at 90 degrees off axis at any distance. Pretty amazing if you think about it. Again, the sound is not as pure an accurate as with the cardoids. If you will be videotaping a WIDE SOUND SOURCE , like a choir, or for ambient sound, this will be a good mike for that. Remember however, you will have to EQ this sound to get an equally accurate sound as from the cardoids.

OVERALL TOTAL EVALUATION CONCERNING A SINGLE CAPSULE VERSUS THE 3 CAPSULE SET: Again, the Octava MK012 is a really cost effective and wonderful bargain in the mike world. If you want a little more high end sparkle, you can spend another $300-$1000 on a fancier mike, or you can simply use the EQ knobs on your mixer for free, and add a smidgen of 10K, or whatever suits you. Left alone, the MK012 gives you a very very well balanced sound without any EQ to begin with, and this may be the best thing to do anyway. In the Electronic Musician shootout, many prefered the non-EQed MK012 on instruments like guitar over mikes costing much more.

If you can justify the additional use of an OMNI capsule, the $199 3 capsule set (Guitar Center) will give you options. You can't get this mike with just an OMNI capsule. OMNI directional mikes are not a particularly good mike to use for general camera work, because you are going to pickup sound from everything, not just your subject in view. It's more for getting crowd noises, or ambient environmental sounds, or sounds from a very wide sound source.
ANY of the Octava mikes are significantly better than the internal mikes on practically any camera, including the DVX100 which has good internal mikes to begin with, and great mike preamps.

The difference between the HYPER and the regular cardoid is in some situations is in sensitivity, and I could only find this using a VU meter on test tones. On voices, I couldn't tell the two apart, and I tried. The off axis filtering and rejection difference is fairly minor if at all. 1 DB difference is NOT detectable by the human ear, at that's what we're talking about with sound sources greater than 24".

Since you need phantom power with these mikes anyway, and most phantom power sources have some means of gain control, it's fairly easy to boost the output of the regular cardoid without adding any audible/discernable mike noise. 6 DB isn't much difference to get.
At 24" and closer, the sensitivity of these two capsules is pretty much the same.

So, it really boils down to what do you need your mike for, and is it worth $100 to splurge on the omni capsule, and minor or questionable differences between the regular and hyper cardoid?

With all respect to Matt's observations, I didn't find them to really bear out. It sounds nice, if this were the case that one mike would really reject off axis sound regardless of the situation, but I couldn't find it so.

I also tried the two mikes at once into the camera with earphones like the test he made. I couldn't find anything happening once the mike levels were set equal. I watched my camera's very accurate VU meters also- nada.

If you are a millionaire with unlimited funds, hey, just get the 3 pack.

If you are watching pennies, its hard to justify the 3 pack.

In either case, it's impossible to find as good a mike for anywhere near this price.

Neil

And if you do buy the single capsule at GC you could wind up with the unknown or nada. You also have no way of knowing where you are, in that sea of uncertainty that the Oktava QC resides. The only thing between a good mic or bad could very well be a bored clerk.

The difference between the single capsule and the set for me was $50 Canadian, that's less than $40 US. I also have a distributor and a dealer that QC'd them before i got them.

If you look at a polar plot there isn't much difference between the card and hypercard with the exception of the tail (lobe) It's about 4 db difference .

If you keep things in perspective the Oktava is a good deal singley or in the set.

To keep things in perspective, i just spent $1200 on one supercardoid that blew the CS-1 and CS-3 away so far as off axis rejection. Am i going to sell my Oktavas? No way!

There are some clips online at www,freelancer.com.
The schoepes is clearly the better sounding mic than the oktava but that not all the extra thousand and some buys. The biggie is the off axis rejection.

Well, I wouldn't buy 3 capsules just to insure that one of them works... if I buy anything and it doesn't work when I get home, back it goes. I can't imagine any Guitar Center anywhere making you keep a brand new anything that's defective, whether its a pack of strings or something more expensive. I've always gotten exceptionally good service at these stores, and that includes returns and exchanges.

As it turns out, Guitar Center in north Denver was happy to give me the single capsule mike and refunded me $100 and took back the 3 capsule set. Kudus to them. The clerk was glad I took the time to investigate the reality of the Ocatava capsules, and found this information valuable. An honest clerk looking out for his customers.

As in many things, performance is sometimes exagerated by companies in order to justify sales of a product.

In the US its a $100 difference between the 1 and 3 capsule sets, so a little more money involved here, and what you are actually getting is a little more relevant. A spare capsule for $50 is a good deal--- at $100, you could get a whole new mike rather than just a capsule, so I passed on the 3 set.

Niel
My point was that the Oktava QC at best is questionable. Although many are happy, the quality of the GC stock has been questioned. There are those that buy several , take them home test them and return the ones that don't meet their criteria.

There are also those that are happy to pay The Sound Room $190 for a single capsule, they get piece of mind and a mic that is among the best that oktava puts out. The Sound room and a few other Oktava resellers pay a premium for the pick of the litter. The actual production cost of a mic preamp or capsule is very low, the cost is in testing.(and lots of profit)

Try and buy a Schoeps , Sanken , Sennheiser or Neumann at a deep discount. It makes me shudder.

All said, the oktava is a hell of a good deal.

$50 cheaper? How much are both 1cap and 3cap set CAD? (I am long distance, someone elses phone bill right now...can't call)

Thank you all for this oktava info...it's REALLY helping me and I am sure many, many others.

Thanks for the hard work guys!
Rob

Rob
The numbers for the Toronto Oktava dealers are toll free.

The AT 4053a Hyper is only a 4 db difference (between the cardoid) at 90 degrees as well (on paper). if it wasn't important to some people they wouldn't make them. -6db is half the sound so -4 would still be a fair difference.

This thread has gotten a bit wacky, pero I would like to add one bit. Niel's very interesting tests showed that oktava with the hyper capsule "at 90 degrees to the side it dropped about 8 or 9DB" This is what most manufacturers state about their short shotguns. A 10db drop at 90 degrees is considered ideal for a hyper or short shot. This may not seem dramatic, but take two dialogue tracks into your multitrack software and listen to them compete at the same level. Ahora, drop one of them 10db and listen to the difference. I think you'll find, you can suddenly understand the unaffected track.

thanks bryan, really appreciate the help.

Um--
Well, they make a lot of Ford Explorers also, and I wouldn't buy one of those either if my life depended on it :-)

Anyway, my point being for all of this trouble, is the APPLICATION of the Octava for video/film rather than for music application.

In the context of a camera or boom mike, where you are primarily recording a talking head/heads on camera-- the hypercardoid versus cardoid Octava mike is pretty much a non-issue for me, and my guess, anyone else using these mikes in this application.
That's because there will almost certainly not be a sound source anywhere near the sound levels off axis of your subject, almost certainly within that 24" or closer area where the real difference between the hyper and regular cardoid can be seen.

Off axis at distances greater than this, hardly any difference between the two capsules of note.

In MUSIC APPLICATIONS, this difference can be important- for example, miking a snare drum that is sitting within inches of a tom tom or cymbal, and you really need to isolate these sounds that are in close proximity. And keep in mind, the Octava MK012 was manufactured with musical applications in mind-- not video cameras.

So, the justification of the design difference of these mikes, and the way they work- makes the difference important for one field, but rather inconsequential for the other.

IN the same vein, news broadcast cameras almost exclusively use shotguns, because these people are on the street, and noisy enviornments where news is happening. Unless you are a news cameraman, most of us shooting video and film work on either a closed set, or an isolated set, where background noise is already fairly quiet, and certainly nothing at all like miking an instrument in a loud band, or isolating a drum in a set- applications where the -4 DB reduction at 90 degrees makes a difference. At 36" or more, the difference between the cardoid and the hypercardoid is miniscule and is academic.

Only when you've got a -3DB signal at 24" or under do you see the difference between the mikes-- and only if you have a SECOND OFF AXIS sound source at this same level coming at the mike.

Less signal- sound sources at greater distances (which will not have the same level, unless you are in a very busy bowling alley!) not even a VU meter is going to see any audible differences between these mikes.

In practical terms, this means if you are miking an on camera conversation, and a car rolls by, or a truck, or there's a TV on in the next room-- things that you are not going to do "take two" because the environmental sounds are not already drowning out your subjects-- you won't be able to tell the difference in off axis noise rejection between the Octava cardoid and the hypercardoid capsules. And my educated guess- having also tested this with $400 AT C3000 large diaphram studio mikes-- is that it wouldn't make a difference with more expensive cardoid/hypercardoid configurations either. Mike design differences between these two just isnt' that great to begin with.

Now, comparing an omni directional with a cardoid/or hypercardoid that's an entirely different story. Same with comparing a true lobar or shotgun design against the cardoid/hyper cardoid-- a noticable difference.

But with all three types cardoid/shotgun/omni-- each of these designs will have inherent sound signatures-- this is apparent just camparing the Octava cardoids against the omni- noticable difference.

There is NOT a difference in the sub-catagories, i.e. cardoid versus hypercardoid-- they sound essentially the same.

People are making the assumption that the 4 DB difference between the cardoid configurations is an across the board number regardless of where the mike is and how its used, it's not.

I wish it was! Then I would be pleased as punch to pay the extra $100 US to upgrade the normal cardoid mike.

Hope this clears up a couple of the details of the WHY these mikes exist and what the actual practical application of the differences boils down to.

Be aware, I'm not putting anyone's opinions down and I enjoy delving into these things. Mostly because I want to justify spending the extra $100 for a capsule- and if it actually will make a difference in my application, or if I'm just throwing money away. If it were just a $50 difference here in the US-- hell, I'd buy the 3 capsule set too, just to get the omni! But its, not, its another $100.

(Bear in mind that I already have a Neuman TLM103, and two AT C3000 mikes for my little studio, and each of those has a cardoid and hypercardoid switch.)

Neil

I just typed a super long post and then erased it before popping this up. Sometimes I think these "debates" are interesting to readers and sometimes I think it promotes ill feelings between members... and I don't want this to become one of those threads.

In my opinion. You don't have to be a "millionaire with money to burn" to justify a lousy hundred bucks for two caps... I find it ironic that you felt the need to point out that you bought a thousand dollar studio mic and then you want to convince everybody else that $50 bucks a cap is millionaire money.

As per your findings for $50 per cap you will get a difference that you can hear as well as measure.

I do put my Oktava's to use in very crowded situations and in noisy environments and every bit of desired signal coming in over unwanted noise is valuable. Weddings, events, sports, ENG...

If you don't hear any difference then keep the cardioid and forget the other caps... for anybody reading this I suggest you completely DUMP the idea of getting any Oktava and get the At4073a... it is audibly and measurably superior to the Oktava.

For $530 you can have a mic that's about 15% better then the Oktava hyper (at the things you want a shotgun/hyper for)...

What's that? You say "but it's only $200 for a kit which includes a cap that sounds just a little worse then the At4073a" and you say "you even get an omni and cardioid for other uses"?...

What are you? A millionaire? Just get the 4073a and be done with it.

I should add that, for anybody trying to decide what Oktava choice to make, that I actually DID previously decide to get the cardioid only kits... but when I compared an Oktava cardioid with the 4073a I was dissappointed at how much off-axis sound was competing with my dialog.

My original intent with the Oktavas was to have a nice sounding, small mic for on-cam use... when I needed it. (Super short shot)

So if you buy the cardioid only kit and later decide you want one of the other caps... it'll cost you $73 shipped. For ONE cap.

Then at that point you're only looking at a $30 savings over the 3 cap kit. Or worse, let's say you end up wanting all 3 caps... Those extra two caps will then cost you around $135... putting your total cost UP $35 from what it would have been.

I ordered the hyper cap to compliment one of the two cardioid only kits... I still haven't decided if I need two hypers, but I have had times when I'd have liked to have two omni's and I've had times when I wanted two cardioids.

So when it's all said and done I'll have spent $70 or so MORE by not just getting the 3 cap kits from the start.

I'm speaking from experience on all this and I can tell you, that the differences and the VALUE of those differences in mics greatly increase when it becomes the only limiting factor on a shoot. How many times have you read posts asking how to fix "soft" audio or how to clean up extraneous noise? With your video you can cut to black or do a fade or jump-cut to something unrelated and if your audio is preserved nobody even notices... but if your sound has problems it's all the viewers can think about...

When I received the hyper cap and tested it... I realized I probably wouldn't need the At4073a at all. That's a pretty big compliment for $73... (which is only $27 away from the extra $100 for TWO caps)...

Hey, isn't this why we have DISCUSSION? Nothing personal at work here.

Matt, however, the first rule of debate is don't contradict yourself :-) (friendly jab jab)

>If you don't hear any difference then keep the cardioid and forget the other caps... for anybody reading this I suggest you completely DUMP the idea of getting any Oktava and get the At4073a... it is audibly and measurably superior to the Oktava.

then
>When I received the hyper cap and tested it... I realized I probably wouldn't need the At4073a at all. That's a pretty big compliment for $73...


Matt found a difference between the hyper and the regular Octava capsules-- I found minimal.

I guess that sums it up pretty good.

I spent several hours A/Bing the mike capsules under various conditions that I might expect to find, specifically comparing the differences.. And that's what my opinion is in the end. Like I said, I WISH I had found a significant difference, but I just didn't. So I decided to spend my money on something else..

I would like to hear from someone else who has both the hyper and the reg. cardoid who will do a few systematic tests with a VU meter and see what they find. Maybe I just had a piece of crap hyper capsule for all I know!

Happy sound recording y'all.
Cheers.

Neil... sorry if I sounded like a smartass. I was being sarcastic about the Oktava hyper vs. the At4073a when I said to get the AT... what I meant is that the same approximate jump from the Oktava hyper to the AT is over $400 and the same little jump from the cardioid to the hyper is only a hundred or less... plus you still get the cardioid (and omni)...

Seriously I'm just glad you got turned on to the Oktava 'cause I think they're such a bargain at the price.

That's the only reason that I think the extra caps are so cheap... even though they only mod the mic a bit... it is a difference that can be seen and heard... all for $50 a cap...

I was only debating on a matter of principle based on what our little hobby can cost us.

At this point I've probably got around $15K in it so a hundred bucks seems cheap.

If Oktava really wanted to they could release the MK012 as a "deluxe" with all the hot-rod components installed... then they could ask for $200-$250 for it... and we'd gladly pay. At least I would have (before we knew we could get these at such a bargain).

So I guess really I was just debating the value of the 3 cap kit vs. the value of the 1 cap kit overall. I think they are at the minimum an equal value, and in my opinion the 3-capper is the better deal if you end up wanting all 3...

Sorry if I don't always make my points clearly... and thanks for not being offended when I toss out that sarcasm. I don't want to cause ill feelings... I just wanted to make my "value" point a little sharper.

Ah yes, sometimes humour doesn't translate in emails and text....

These day's I'm really watching my pennies, so I have to really justify spending even $50, and then $100--

I've more than once heard claims about equipment, whether it be a printer, or a piece of audio gear- only to find at home and in application that it doesn't live up to claims.

I'm not complaining about the overall sound quality and relative cost of the MK012-- it's tremendous. I'm just being realistic about the actual differences I found with my capsules, and whether or not for me it was worth spending double for something (additional caps) that didn't make a big difference as I observed it and tested it.

Thanks
and thanks for your input. Glad I learned about the Ocatava option in the first place!

Guys....I think it's time for this thread to end, I've been watching it, and nothing good is coming out of it any longer, except a couple of private emails to me asking about it. Let's move on, OK?

Personally, I always thought "thanks for your input" was a good way to end a discussion.