Emilio Olivares brought this news in DVinfo DV Industry News forum but can be interesting for our HDV editing issues too.

http://www.ati.com/products/PCIexpress/index.html

I would like to open a discussion about using PC-X slot that can be found in new PM G5 or some other fastest PCs and HDV editing options (encoding/editing/decoding). For example Blackmagic DeckLink HD (Mac/PC card) claims that using that slot in new Mac G5 (or powerful PC) can provide more HD real-time effects. How CPUs are getting faster that better works for the DL HD card (probably for all other HD enabled cards too) that is a simply I/O HD with PCI-X bridge.

How this ATI technological advanced card option could reflect faster and easy to edit on FCP (Mac) or PC (Premiere Pro/AspectHD), Vegas etc?

Sanjin

Hi,

Still o any replay...but OK...

People still didn't get what is actually going on with the next generation of video cards that are going to replace AGP on both, desktop and mobile soon.

I will give you now 4 quotations from ATI announcment:

1. Already one application - HDTV video editing - requires PCI Express, and there will certainly be others in the near future, including PC gaming .

2. "ATI’s PCI Express design provides up to double the bandwidth of bridged PCI Express solutions. Full bandwidth is available in both upstream and downstream directions, whereas bridged PCI Express (AGP) provides only unidirectional bandwidth."

3. "Better power management...Notebook users will find this feature of particular importance."

4. "Made possible by PCI Express’s high speed data transfers, the demonstration has to use the industry’s only true PCI Express visual processing unit (VPU). ATI’s PCI Express VPU, in conjunction with the advanced real time HD engine being developed by Pinnacle, takes advantage of the new read and write capabilities offered by PCI Express.


The future is here, stay tuned to see it first with ATI.“


Sanjin

PCIExpress and PCI-X are not the same thing. Current desktop systems that use PCI and PCI-X use AGP for display controllers.

HDV is a format that uses essentially a DV data rate (ignoring Cineform's stuff). It is not particularly demanding on disk IO nor is rendering it particularly demanding of 2D video performance. If you think that PCIExpress is somehow going to make video editing faster and easier I think you'll be disappointed. Computers will continue to get faster and make editing subsequently faster, but as of now it's primarily a CPU and memory challenge. IO is not the big holdup.

As for HDTV editing requiring PCIExpress, tell that to the people who are doing it without PCIExpress. PC gaming seems to be doing fine without it as well. PCIExpress is simply Intel's replacement for PCI/AGP. Many won't even know it when they get it.

I am not technician but I will quote again

Apple said about PCIX technology on their G5 Page:

- 133MHz PCI-X expansion
The Power Mac G5 features PCI-X, the hottest new advance in PCI technology. The PCI-X protocol increases the PCI bus speed from 33MHz to 133MHz, and the throughput from 266 Mbps to a combined total of 2GBps. PCI-X also operates more efficiently, giving you more usable bandwidth at any clock frequency — ideal for HD video and other high-bandwidth applications.

-PCI-X protocol specs:
...These new standards keep pace with upcoming advances in high-bandwidth business-critical applications such as Fibre Channel, RAID, networking, InfiniBand™ Architecture, SCSI, and iSCSI....
(This can be found at http://www.pcisig.com/specifications/pcix_20)

Also I know that Steve Jobs is not going to implement any new technology that is out of the PC standard just to not put Apple in troubles that happend before.

I think it is about the same PC-X in Apple and PCXpress in ATI supported by Intel or who else.

Apple also needs ATI video cards in future. no doubts...

Sanjin

Sorry, but once more to add this opinion...

JVC said HD to masses.

Guys who edited HD on systems that costs fortune can continue to do HD on it in future for sure.

But WE, bunch of ordinaries (masses in the language of JVC) can do HD(V) editing with a little help of cheaer video cards that consists ATI, Nividia...or who else... with latest technologies that are becoming cheaper and cheaper...also with a little help of JVC, Apple, Intel, Heuris, CineForm,... etc.

These are companies in avant-garde of HD for the people.

Avid and other guys can continue with a little help of corporate money. I am talking about spending MY, PRIVATE money for my little HD vision.

Sanjin

I must be missing something here, but is this PCI-X card needed for capturing raw uncompressed HD?
Does the JVC even output such a stream?
Is this all to avoid the mpeg2 stage?
You would need to tether the JVC camera to a computer, right?

-Les

Les,

First you can capture your video from JVC HDV camcorder in two ways:

A. To convert your camcorder analog signal to HD-SDI that starting from component output (Y/Ps/Pb) via Analog to Digital converter a la AJA A/D to HD 10 and at the end you must get it in your dektop via BNC HD-SDI input that you can find in every HD enabled card. So only DeckLink HD claims that has PC-X option at the moment. PC-X anyway helps in to move your HD files with a faster bandwidth through your hardware and software or computer in general.

B. You can capture in MPEG2-TS but some software has to convert in files that are HD by nature, uncompressed are the best, all other compressions still has to improve HD quality. So that means that new video card like ATI is going to make can be HD enabled, and maybe we can get it on laptops and in that way faster to move our videos through editing process.

About PC-X technology and HD is that gives more bandwidth that older PCI AGP tech.

HD video card vendors a la Blackmagic DeckLink, Aurora, Pinnacle, AJA... and also consumer video card vendors a la ATI, Nvidia... are all moving development in that way.

Wait for NAB in April and have a look in HD situation then...

Sanjin

So does this analog capture avoid the mpeg2 stage, and make it better because of this?
Otherwise, I don't see the point.
So are you proposing to shoot with the camera to it's DV tape? Or are you tethering a computer to the camera and just using it as a camera head, not using it's tape at all?
-Les

Les,

No, the thing is very simple, This JVC HDV Camcorder allows you two kinds of output, analog and digital. Analogs are component and composite/S-video. Digital is firewire. So for HD capture works analog/component and digital/firewire option. Analog/component is not SDI enabled and if you need it you must convert it. And to get it in computer you need HD enabled card with BNC HD-SDI input+ software. You capture always in 10 or 8 bit UNCOMPRESSED. Digital/firewire you capture via MPEG-TS file that must be converted in 8 or 10 bit UNCOMPRESSED or another compression that can show HD quality. Thats diverse from OS etc.

PC-X or PCXpress display card when becomes a standard on PC/Mac desktop/laptop can help to move your "monster" HD files through all your hardware and software or your computer HD workstation faster than before with PCI AGP display controllers.

That's all folks...

Sanjin

Is it me, or are you avoiding my questions?

See post above.

Question #1: Is the capture method still MPEG2 derived video?

Question #2: Are you capturing live, not using the DV tape in the cam?

It's simple. Yes and No works well. There are two questions.

Thanks!

Cheers!
-Les

Answers:

1. One of capture methods is to get it in MPEG-2 TS (TS is transport stream) that you can find in HDTV equipment...

2. I do not understand what does it mean to capture Live by your opinion? You must record in some certain media, that it is a tape. Also some vendors offer To record on Hard Drive, but these drives are still small for HD, DV is another story. Do not be confused if you can watch your HD picture live via component output in plasma or on beamer, but camcorder when recording has to put a picture in some cartain media...if you can output a picture from your plasma or beamer to deck, camcorder or HDD just drop your tip to us in this forum...Sorry, but I must repeat again!...if I am wrong please reply with your explanation...

Sanjin

OK, I think you answered my question, that the video capture that you are describing with the cards *is* going through the mpeg2 bottleneck, that is the 19 megabit compression.
So Why would I want to ruin it even more by transferring it as an analog signal?
Copying it as the firewire standard capture is pretty much a straight data quality copy to the computer harddrive. Doing an analog transfer is relying on the camera to decode the mpeg stream again, and then introducing more signal quality loss as it goes from digital to analog and back to digital.
That would be like copying an MP3 music track from one computer to another through the sound port as analog signals and re digitizing it again at the other end.
That extra analog step is not desired in any system.
Don't you want the file transfered to the PC as clean as possible, ( bit for bit copy ) and let the PC decode it into the best suitable format for editing?

Modern video engineering frowns on analog where it isn't needed in the chain.

Why go to analog?
-Les

Have a look on Pro HD stuff from Sony, Panasonic and Thomson Grass Valley or CineAlta, Varicam and Viper and see how it is going on there. Mostly it about is HD-SDI output directly, but where(?), to deck (mostly) or computer HD RAID storage via HD video card a la DeckLink, CineWave, AJA, Aurora (some Mac stuff) and than from that in NLE.

What it is analog and what it is digital you can find on links below:

- CineAlta link
http://www.cinealta.com/product/acquisition/index.html

- VariCam Link
http://www.panasonic.com/PBDS/subcat/Products/cams_ccorders/f_aj-hdc27v.html

- Viper Link
http://www.thomsongrassvalley.com/products/cameras/viper/

Also try to get some more knowlage about HD issues on the links about HD below:

http://www.highdef.org/library/glossary.htm

http://www.hd24.com/

Sanjin

Sanjin,
HD-SDI is a digital signal. No analog. Going to a deck is all digital too. Going to disk is digital too.

The JVC has no digital output other than the firewire.

I don't see why JVC HDV users would want to capture analog when they can stay 100% digital out of the camera.

Please explain the reason you would prefer to capture the analog signal from the little JVC camera. I don't understand!

Thanks!
-Les

Les,

-Digital firewire is not the same as HD-SDI stream, otherwise all Pro HD camcorders would run firewire HD output. This is a difficult technical issue I guess.

-So JVC HDV camcorder uses firewire to output MPEG2-TS that is HDTV standard.

-I have got one DVD titled HDVTraining that you can order from Darren Kelly, one of us from this forum, and saw a great picture quality he achieved with this camcorder and also great compression on DVD. So I asked him how he get it and he answered, I am quoting him from his email to me:
"The program was shot and edited completely in HD. I use FCP and Kona HD and converters. It was downconverted to MPEG2 using Compressor in Final
Cut Pro."

Get his DVD abd see...

Or if you have some questions before about that topic please contact him at

http://www.hdvtraining.com

Sanjin

Righttttt...
So what does that have to do with my concern of you suggesting we capture the video from the JVC cam in ANALOG ????

Analog is bad.
The company where my film scanner is used has a full Avid HD edit suite that is used all the time to work on HD. It always comes in as digital video on HD tapes.
Nobody in Hollywood uses analog if they don't have to.

Question #1 : Tell me again why you think capturing ANALOG from the JVC is good or better that capturing from it's firewire port?

-Les

Les,

I see but what you mean but Darren Kelly did conversion via AJA A/D HD10 converter and than feed FCP with HD uncompressed files via AJA KONA HD card. I repeating again this process. Digital MPEG-TS must be converted in HD standard uncompress 10 or 8 bit files and it is matter of software perfection. Heuris should be good option.

I am not pro-analog or contra-digital. I am simply about getting highest picture, analog or digital does not matter, it is about quality for basic files and after that you can start to work on your movie...

S

Ok, got it.

So you agree that you can get the same quality by just using the firewire transfer, and editing with good software and software decoders/encoders.

I make it very simple:
1> Capture with JVC provided HD capture utility to harddrive.
2> Edit m2t clips directly with Sony Vegas.
3> Output render 4 to 7 Mbit Media9 WMV files from Vegas, so I can put 80 min on one DVD-R at HD resolution. Playable on modern PC's.

Three steps total. No messy multi format conversions.
It's easy. Like it should be.
-Les

Les,

You are really Lucky Loss Vegas Guy, but that is not HD quality WMP HD is Microsoft HD dump, it is a fake HD same as Pixlet on Mac, THEY ARE BOTH COMPRESSIONS. By the way on doing steps, Mac has the same 3. 1. Heuris XtractorHDV mpg capture, 2. directly to drop in FCP for editing and 3. various compressions in fake HD to play in QT longer than 80 min on DVD. But it is not a real DVD neither HD. What does mean "modern PC"? PC architecture is outdated, get a Mac Man...

REAL HD IS ABOUT UNCOMPRESSED 10 BIT FILES IN 1920x1080 PERIOD

After that you can convert in what you want mpeg2-1, wmp, qt or whatever...

I just have got Logic Pro 6 on my door and must stop it now...

Sanjin

I use Media9 for my final output only.
It looks very good, especially at the 7 megabit rate.
It is the best DISTRIBUTION format at the moment, and it supports 5.1 sound as well.I have film scanned over 20 30 min. 35mm films for an organization, and they were all encoded in Media9 format for distribution. They are very happy with the quality.
Digital theater projection in public theaters are all using compressed formats, you know that, right?
Besides, the Mpeg2 that the JVC uses to hold the HD on DV tapes is *very* outdated antique stuff. Bad compression technology for sure!!! *It* is the major destructor of image quality on HDV footage! ( but it can be done real time, so it's in there.... )

------------
Question 1: What do you suggest as an alternative to send a HD movie out on, to friends?
------------

Years ago I was a Mac Fanatic, but switched over to PC because they were cheaper, and they have over 90% market share.
Plenty of other reasons too, I won't start that here.
If I bring over a movie to a friends house on DVD-R in media 9, there is a good chance they can play it.
It's about the numbers!

So if compressed HD is not good for you, stay away from the HDV cameras at all costs!
They use 1990's technology on that tape!

-Les

Les,

I don't want to start a PC vs. Mac debate here. Also, many home users don't have Windows XP Pro which, since I last checked a couple of months ago, is the only way to view Windows Media 9/HD files. But that may have changed, and I'll research it. I'm sure you know better.

If you want to talk tape issues with HDV and mini-DV, that's a debate probably better suited for the HD10/HD1 thread.

Thanks,

heath

Sanjin,

Your posts are a bit confusing here, as well. LOSS VEGAS??? Are you talking about Vegas Video?

Darren talks about capturing via FIREWIRE through the HD10 into his Apple with the Kona HD card. I've spoken with AJA's engineers about this, and their quite proud that their Kona HD card can handle HDV very well. It's uncompressed, of course.

Also, thanks for the links to HD knowledge, but I sense you feel we don't know as much. Many of us, including Les, deal with HD every day, or at least HDV. I've had the HD10 since last July, and I'm learning a lot, but I also know much.

Just clarify your points more, so we can understand them better.

Thanks,

heath

Heath,
You can play Media 9 on Macs too!
You have to encode on PC, however.
It's not just XP pro.

FYI
-Les

I just tried a presentation that I encoded in WM9 and distributed on CD on a dual 2GHz G5 and it stutters. The same CD plays fine on a 3Ghz pentium. I have examples of DivX, 3ivX that I encoded of the same presentation that play fine on the G5. This seems to suggest that either WM9 is more processor intensive than DivX, or then Media Player 9 is not optimized on OS X.
Doom9.org has a codec comparison in which DivX wins out over WM9.

http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/codecs-203-1.htm

I think doom9 is a great resource, although a quality comparison will be subjective in this case. Their reputation is as a site about DVD ripping, but it contains content in other areas as well, AVIsynth for example.

WM9 has the advantage of near ubiquity, you can't be sure that people have DivX, 3ivx.

<<<-- Originally posted by Les Dit : Heath,
You can play Media 9 on Macs too!
You have to encode on PC, however.
It's not just XP pro.

FYI
-Les -->>>

Les,

Thanks for clarifying. Last time I checked, you couldn't play it on anything BUT XP Pro!

Anyone figure out how to watch T3 Extreme HD version on a Mac?

heath

Getting back to the first silly point of this thread, PCI Express and PCI-X are absolutely not the same thing. PCI-X is a logical extension of PCI while PCI Express is entirely new. What ATI is developing to has nothing to do with what is integrated in G5 systems today. Quote all the Apple propaganda you like but it's all irrelevant.

It should also be mentioned that both PCI and PCI Express are products of Intel and come from PC's as does AGP. Steve Jobs has no trouble lifting PC technology for use in macs. Where do you think hypertransport, PCI, PCI-X, AGP and USB come from? Take away those things and IBM's processor and you have a box full of fans. Cool looking box, though.

Faster busses and video cards will contribute nothing to improving the HDV editing experience, mac or pc. Neither will a Rube Goldberg approach of redigitizing HDV video though the component outputs of the camera. Good way to spend big money though.

Thanks for the clarification Craig. The visual of an empty box full of fans gave me a good laugh!

Paul, I tried Divx 5.02 on some 720P footage, and had some problem playing it back. What bitrate did you use for the 1280 x 720 30fps frames? I'd like to revisit it, with the N pass encoding that Divx has.BTW, the video card does seem to make a difference on playback. My 4X AGP stuttered, and my 8X AGP does not. Same mx440 chip on both cards.
I liked the bitrate tuning that Divx has. Media9 needs more control over the encoder, it does not have enough 'knobs'.
Doom9 tends to be a Divx clique, were they critiquing it at HD resolutions? They tend to be focused on ripping DVD's, for the most part.
-Les

Hi Les,

I don't recall the bitrate for DivX...
I used DivX with the lowest compression/highest quality only to get a project from the Mac to the PC so I could encode it into WM9 (I know the re-encode is not a great idea, but I couldn't transfer 30 minutes of uncompressed over the network). The evaluation software has since expired so I haven't tried it again. I tried 3ivX after seeing Frederic Haubrich's commercial http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18954&highlight=3ivx, but I only used it on a small clip to try it out.

Pehaps the DivX played back without a problem for me on the Mac because I didn't overly compress it?

The doom9 report was not about HD, but I assumed that compression quality would carry over to HD.

Getting back somewhat to the thread topic, here is and article about analog capture cards from LAFCUG
http://www.lafcpug.org/feature_capture_card.html

To coment on the origional point of the post: We are dealing with HDV format here, not HD. The PCI express cards will not offer us any great advantages for editing this format, including AspectHD codec. Our video systems handle these formats just fine.
Yes these new video cards may be helpful for true HD multi track, but as Les tried so nicely to explain, there are currently no advantage to exporting uncompressed out of this cam via analog out to digital SDI as the compression has already been applied. For speed, usability, and quality Cineforms codec can't be beat. And you do not need PCI-Express to use it.
Ken