I've shot a few weddings (3) with the DVX100 and really began to think I'm using the wrong camera for my craft. I was seriously considering the PD170 for it's low light performance especially in regards to wedding receptions which tend to be quite dim. I originally got it to shoot 24p shorts but have yet to really make use of it in that way.

So what do you guys think? Is the PD170 a better choice for my particular field? In optimal lighting in 60i how do the two compare. Lastly is there a benefit to shooting DVCAM?

I don't shoot weddings at all, but what always seems to mystify me in these posts about weddings is that there always seems to be low light concerns. Is it not possible to do lighting for weddings? Even some minimal low watt diffused lighting? In the few weddings I've attended, it seems the still photo guys are using flash or am I mistaken?

If you can't light and your getting grainy footage, I think you had better look for an alternate, extreme low-light video camera.

-Rodger

I've shot quite a number of Weddings with both Sony PD-150 and JVC GY-DV301 (Streamcorder). From my experience, all 1/3" CCD cams provide about the same low-light quality.

Too dim, you are going to get flat and uninteresting footages. So, I carry along a 50W light and to prevent spoiling the atmosphere, I point the light upwards and have the ceiling/wall bounds it back.

You maybe right Yik, regarding all 1/3" cameras providing similar low-light quality...however, not all the same with gain applied. The 1lux rating of the PD-170 is most definitly measured WHILE using gain- just as the DVX100's 3lux rating is at a terribly grainy +18db.

Rodger, you make a good point but beings you never shot a wedding you probably wouldn't know that using external light is resort during recpetions. I always try to shoot without external light if possible. Plus on camera lights are very harsh and create contrasty subjects with harsh shadows. Granted they make on-camera softboxes but have yet to see them implimented with a camera the size of a DVX and/or PD170.

Im a DVX'er so am somewhat biased.

Lets pretend you get the other camera and then one day and wake up a say to yourself "I have today off from the shooting weddings, what i want to do is make some shorts"

hmmm..

If only you had the DVX.

You are right Glenn.

Sony cams do provide cleaner images at max gain (+18dB), but, to me, all cams' max gain to me are not useable at all.
The grains are simply distracting and makes lousy MPEG compression. They tend to make my work look 'consumerish'.

Usually, I'll go up to +9dB only at max, no more than that.

I'll be getting a DVX100A next month and I believe I'll limit the gain up to +9dB too.

I really appreciate the JVC DV300's 12-bit A/D which helps to deliver less contrasty footages, especially bright/highlights subject(wedding gowns) over a shadowy dim background.

The new DVX100A with 12-bit A/D could deliver the same result, I guess.

I actually find it better to not use on camera gain at all. It is much easier to fix lowlight footage in post than if you have already added gain to it. When you use your NLE you can decide how bright (exactly) you want to go before you see too much gain. You can then adjust the brightness/contrast and levels to darken the darks, lighten the lights and get rid of grain all together. If you record with gain on, now you have to get rid of the grainy footage before you can adjust anything. The only time I use gain is when i need to set my white balance and the lights are too dim to do that.

a 20w on cam light is all you need to have optimal footage with ANY 1/3 ccd cam...

without light there is no colour. simple.

for those thinking they can film a reception lit only with fairy lights and small candles, let me just say that if i was the client, and my footage was dark wnad you had the opportunity to use light, i wouldnt be happy...

if you explain to the client that lights are a necessity, theres no issue.

less contrasty footages, especially bright/highlights subject(wedding gowns) over a shadowy dim background.


err.. dude, thats what the scene files are for :)

Err, what I mean is, wider dynamic range. That's what the 12-bit A/Ds are for.

That's also one of the reason I choose the Streamcorder and DVX100A over 100.

Scene files only let us have preset Black Compress/Stretch, matrix etc, but not improving on providing more color depth for the DSP to work with.

PD-150/170, and VX have 8-bit A/D

<<<-- Originally posted by Yik Kuen : Too dim, you are going to get flat and uninteresting footages. So, I carry along a 50W light and to prevent spoiling the atmosphere, I point the light upwards and have the ceiling/wall bounds it back. -->>>

Funny you should mention your technique for lighting. As I was typing my initial reply to Glen, I was thinking of a low light system made by DVTec, the people who make the DVRig Pro I just bought from Rush over at EVSOnline.com. It just seems to me this would in no way interfere with any part of the wedding/reception if used tastefully. No cords to get in the way, battery is a counter-balance on the DVRig Pro and is designed to fit right on the DVRig Pro -- Which by the way all of you wedding videographers should be using.

Here's a link http://www.dvtec.tv/_wsn/page9.html and make sure to look at the DVRig Pro shoulder mount while your there. This thing is really the HOT! setup.

-Rodger

rad, you got the dv rig pro
I wish I could get that, but I just bought my dvx a month ago and my wife is still trying to get over that. Want to buy one for me too?

<<<-- Originally posted by Stefan Scherperel : rad, you got the dv rig pro
I wish I could get that, but I just bought my dvx a month ago and my wife is still trying to get over that. Want to buy one for me too? -->>>

Sorry, too much stuff to buy yet.

BTW your wife will never get over it. It will always pop up in a conversation now and then. But, if it brings in some money here and there and some of that money goes into something nice, say for the house or for her, she slowly begin to hold it less and less over your head.

So far, I'm hooked into a new living room set. Before I'm done buying what I need, I could very well be refurnishing the whole house.

-Rodger

Glen, many cams are good for shooting weddings, but if you want a good low light cam, how about a used DV500 or DVC200?

The DV500 would be great but isn't it quite a lot more expen$ive?

Rodger, how much does this DVRig Pro cost complete (w/o light) for use with the DVX100? It looks great from the pictures. If you can, send me an e-mail and tell me all about it please.

As someone who does event (wedding) work and who migrated from Sony's to DVX-100's as a way to bridge the gap to HD (sounded good at the time), I have often thought that I purchased the wrong camera for my work. The DVX's are superb for scripted shots but my experience with the Sony's are that they are simply easier to use for events where shooting conditions change quickly. But I still do not regret buying two DVX-100's over a year ago. (now I'm thinking "a")

Lighting for wedding receptions is often a hot issue. Some clients just do not want lights on your cameras shinning in the faces of their guests. And when you tell them that you will loose color and add noise, they say "whatever" (or they say that the other guy said he could do it with his camera). But when they see these images afterwords, they always complain about either how dark they are or how bad they look. Wedding customers are often not as reasonable as corporate or other customers. No amount of extras in post will compensate for even small portions of video with low audio (during ceremony) or dark video. Their expectations are that they must have paid for Steven Spielberg and his production team if they pay you any more than a grand. That being said, I do, as do most wedding videographers, use a light. I use a light with a dimmer and when used properly, this helps. But I still get "dirty looks" from guests and participants when using the light even at dimmed levels. As a wedding videographer who relies on word of mouth for new business, you really have to walk a fine line between being a distraction at the reception and providing an acceptable product. If you fail at either, you will not get the referral.

I cannot say if the Sony's are better at low light, but I do agree that an on cam light with a dimmer is the way to go with any camera in this price range.

<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Morrell : light even at dimmed levels. As a wedding videographer who relies on word of mouth for new business, you really have to walk a fine line between being a distraction at the reception and providing an acceptable product. If you fail at either, you will not get the referral.

-->>>

All I'm worried about is if the B&G are irritated by the light. Who cares if Cousin Vinny is distracted- it's all about the client. Granted I *do* try to keep my distance while using my light to at least give them some distance- it can definitly be blinding up close. Problem is most catering halls purposely dim the lights..they claim it helps get people on the dance floor. Kinda ironic I ruin the mood by using onboard light- but a clear clean image is most important. If any guests scowl, thats what editing is for.
There are, however, times during the reception I *don't* use the light and it's during the formal dances. Usually I luck out and the lights aren't dimmed to cave'like darkness at that time.

Its interesting to hear the different strategies used for wedding clients. The formal dances are something that I usually do have the light on for. I do usually stay pretty far away from the dance floor though. Shooting strategies are always judgment calls and often you have to make your decisions quickly when you are documenting the event and do not have control of the surroundings.

I will have to say that you never know who might be your next referral. I got a referral recently from a Bride's brother. So even cousin Vinny can be someone that you try to please too.

Absolutly all my business thus so far has been from referrals. I get excited when I get a gig from a new couple- I think to myself...a "new" circle of friends! Seriously...for every bride I shoot I end up doing at least two of her friends weddings.

You make a good point but my referals haven't been based on me using or not using a light- it's been on my final product. Even if, say, a possible client was irritated at on camera lighting I used at her friend's wedding- she'd change her mind once she saw the finished product. The proof is in the pudding is suppose, but that's not to say presentation and manners aren't important as well. If lighting posed enough of a problem I would surely work to fix the situation. It's just that the most I get are a few dirty looks. A few dirty looks vs grainy color-less video.....it's a no-brainer. Thanks for the input.

Well guys, again pure amateur at setups for weddings and still shoot off his mouth -- but as long as you don't write it in the contract NOT to use lights, I would if needed. I might even have a clause in there that I CAN use lights if ambient light is unsuitable. But then again, if that Vinny guy you both seem to know came over to me and started making faces, I'd probably blow the whole deal anyway ;>).

So, here's another option. When it is really too dark, try and use 24PA and 1/24th shutter. Pan really slow or not at all unless your following a target. Use a steadicam or stabilizer of some sorts and maybe you will get some wonderful low light shots you would never have found otherwise.

DVRig Pro is just about $600 bucks. Over priced for what it is, but what it is has no equal at the moment. It is very close to, but not quite, a steadi-something. I will say, if you're good to great shooting freehand, this will be a steadicam for you.

Just some thoughts.

-Rodger

<<<-- Originally posted by Stefan Scherperel : rad, you got the dv rig pro
I wish I could get that, but I just bought my dvx a month ago and my wife is still trying to get over that. Want to buy one for me too? -->>>

Tell your wife that with the DvRigPro. you will never complain about back pain or neck pain again, So you will be able to help more with the house work...