All the footage is in HDV or DVC Pro HD.

So now we've decided to post in SD - 4x3 aspect ratio.

I'm thinking I should convert the clips first and then edit in SD, rather than editing an HD program and then downsizing on export?

But some of the shots may need pan & scan.

And if I down convert the footage to "SD widescreen", wouldn't that lower the quality, since there's the same number of pixels as non-widescreen SD - the pixels are just wider (less detail)

I'm editing with PPro CS4.

any thoughts? Thanks...

Robert, your best quality result is to edit in HD and convert to later. If you export to a CineForm file then HD Link can rescale your HD to SD for you including adding letterbox for you.

"your best quality result is to edit in HD and convert to later."

Really? That means I'd be rescaling all the graphics and animations and effects. Seems like it would be better quality to rescale first and then do a nice clean edit (?)

also, I want the final program to be without letterbox - just full screen 4 x 3 SD.

So some of the HD clips need to be 'pan & scan'd so the best action is in the 4 x 3 frame.

any other suggestions?

i do lot of full screen SD 4x3 output and i resize to SD first (in AE) using cineform codec. Then i import it into a SD timeline and export it to DVD etc giving me crisp output. My previous workflow of doing HD and then exporting to SD resulted in soft clips.

Anish,

are you down converting the raw HD footage to SD in AE, or are you first converting to an HD cineform intermediary format?

cineform hd first..then down to sd (cineform codec)..i found that once i convert to sd, the color gets bit washed out but i fixed that by going to the cineform properties when in AE render queue and changing the encoding to use RGB instead of bt.709 colorspace.

Iam keen to hear of better workflows but this one worked fine for me. This workflow worked best for me because my timeline is SD and i have some clips which are SD 4.3 which are in every episode i do (intro etc.). I only need to color correct once as the footage is usually from same light conditions so doing color correction in AE and then downconverting to SD makes life easier. i keep codec to cineform until the final export.

First does Neo HD have the compresor that Prospect HD has?

If you are working on a HDV project 1440x1080 and want to output to both BD and DVD do you use HDlink to resizes your project to say 720x480 ntsc wide and you take that into Encore to output to SD DVD. Encore compress more correct when it transcodes?

If so how much is that degrading the output? Beccause we all know that Adobe compressor really stinks

I'm also wondering if HD link is better at conversion than AE?

In AE I put 1920 x 1080 footage in a 1440 x 1080 comp to convert it from 16:9 to 4:3 aspect ratio - then did a "stretch" down to 720 x 480.

It looked good.

Another approach might be to try downcoverting the original 16:9 format 1920 x 1080 to a 16:9 format SD 996 x 480 (.9 PAR) via HD link or AE.

Then this footage could be pan & scanned in the SD NLE timeline.

guess I'll try that next!

When HD link converts 1440x1080 HD footage to widescreen SD, I'm assuming it's the widescreen SD format....720x480 with 1.2 pixel aspect ratio (PAR)? so all the widescreen info is schmooshed into 720 pixels, that are then stretched sideways to give the widescreen effect.

(I just tried this and the video looks soft)

Since I'm going to pan and scan - I think the quality would be better to go right to a .9 PAR, instead of reducing the size and then having the pixel stretch sideways.

But HD link only has pre-sets - you can't choose your own export format.

AE DOES let you choose the exact frame size and PAR, so seems that would be the best solution. Downsize to 960x480 with .9 PAR and then import that into an AE comp of 720x480 .9 PAR....then pan and scan.

any thoughts?

I think that there is not only one best workflow to go from HD to SD with Cineform – there are few of them.

The best workflow depends on many different factors like:
- do you prefer quality or speed
- do you want to work more, or you want that most of the work (time) is done with your
PC
- which software do you have (becide Cineform)
- which Cineform do you have
- do you make only SD (DVD) or only HD (Blu Ray) version of video, or both in the same
time
- do you want that SD copy and HD copy are exactly the same (from the same Project)

But, the most important for HD and SD video is to go just once in Cineform, edit and eventualy scale from one to another resolution there, and after that to go just once in mpeg2 (mpeg4) for DVD or Blu Ray. You shouldn’t do that more than once because most degradations of video are happening when you render to mpeg (and they are cumulative). If everything is done right, first generation of mpeg losses is OK and hardly visible, but second is very visible.

What's wrong with using David Newman's method (#2 in this thread as well has his blog note at the bottom of #2) or Robert Young's method mentioned in the same thread (#5)?

John Rich

"What's wrong with using David Newman's method (#2 in this thread as well has his blog note at the bottom of #2) or Robert Young's method mentioned in the same thread (#5)?"

John -
Where are these #2 and #5 methods? in this thread? or in the 'cineform software showcase' section? are they in one of the 'stickys'???

and Ivan -

I'm starting with raw .mpeg or .mxf files and converting thru AE so I can get a 960x480 SD file.

are you saying I should convert the raw files to the cineform HD intermedairy format first, and then input to AE?

I tried exporting the 960x480 SD from AE as a cineform .avi file. I'm guessing that's the cineform intermediary formate?

That might make the editing in PPro CS4 easier?

or should I just stick with a standard .avi file?

Yes I was looking for #2 and #5 also?

I think you want CF to do all of your compression. ADOBEs compressor for SD is really crappy! weather you use 960 or 720 you want to use CF to get you there first. The either AE or Encore or what ever to do the final transcoding to DVD. My question is how much does ADOBE hurt the CF file when transcoding to DVD. If CF would build a transcoder for Encor and AE I think that would the best picture.

Tim Bucklin or Dave Neuman or Jake can you comment on the best compression method and what harm does Adobe do in the final output? I know you are very busy with first light!

Sorry. I can't believe I left out the link
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/cineform-software-showcase/146874-cine-br-dvd.html

#2 is David's answer and #5 is Robert Young's located in this thread ie they are responses.

John Rich

As you see from all treads from Cine to BR & DVD thread, I am not an expert with Cineform (I am using only trials) and I am thinking that NEoHD would be better investment than Scene (and especially now with the First Light). The main reason is different HDLink and its advaced features.

I tried #2 (#5 is very similar) and found that it is great method to get clean and sharp SD video from HDV cam. I work with Vegas, Vegas can't use Cineform compresor, so you must do that with HDLink.

I was trying few months really very hard to get clean SD video with Vegas scaling down (and some other programs), but never could get it. Instead, I captured twice from cam - once in HDV and second in SD and it was always better than scale down in SD with Vegas. Most people from other forums didn't agree, but, well it's their problem. Important is, I am talking only about interlaced video here. When I tried to do that with Cineform workflow from #2 or #5 I get it from the first attempt.

But I tried and this: convert with HDLink 1440x1080 m2t from cam to Cineform SD (16:9); edit that Cineform SD on Vegas timeline and render it to mpeg2 for DVD - it was also good and I can't say that I could see any difference between this and first method. First method is more practical if you are doing both in the same time (DVD and BluRay). I can't imagine situation in which I would make only DVD copy of video (much more, there are situations that I am doing only BluRay copies of video).

Somewhere on this forum I also found this method: convert m2t from cam to Cineform 1440x1080 (or 1920x1080); edit in your NLE program; when finished, render that to mpeg2 HD for Blu Ray; for SD, scale this new m2t with HDLink to Cineform SD; render this Cineform SD with your NLE program to mpeg2 for DVD - this is not good, because you have not so good SD video like with first two methods - you have two Cineform to mpeg2 transformations for SD video - such video is also without scaling artifacts, but you can very easy notice that it is darker and with much less colours (it looks greenish).

But, this third method is fast and you can use this method if somebody ask you for DVD and you don't have you Project and Cineform master anymore and you don't want to do everythig from the begining - but you shuld compensate for colours and levels in video. Even this method is for me better than method of scaling HD to SD with Vegas (and most other Programs), becuse you can do something with colours and levels, but you can't do nothing with scaling artifacts. Again, it is only for interlaced video. If you want progressive SD video (form interlaced HD video) Vegas will do it very good.

I tried another method for converting HD to SD and to my amateur eye it looks good. I captured 1080i HD clips from my Sony HC1 camera using Ppro 3 and Prospect 3 HD (HDLink).

After all edits were in place I exported a CFHD Avi and then authored a SD DVD using that avi and a SD 720x480 preset with TMPGEnc Authoring Works 4.0xx. The program costs $99, but it seems to be full featured and I found it easy to use. This may sound like a commercial but I have nothing to do with TMPGEnc!

I played the DVD on at least 2 DVD players without issue. Based upon this experience, I am going to try authoring a BluRay disc from both a CFHD avi and AVCHD clips and hope for the best.

Marty

ok I have a question why wold't you use encore if you have pp? Just curious?

I have just not been comfortable with Encore. The learning curve is more than I care to tackle.

I look at Encore as a no cost option since it is included with PPro, but still prefer TMPGEnc which has virtually no learning curve and for me at least, good results.

Ok I see! Did you ever try lynda.com on line training? it will get you up to speed real fast and I think they even give you a 7 day trial. I love it for all it has to offer.

Thanks for the link, John.

I'm trying to go from HD widescreen to SD full screen 4:3.

These conversions with HD link appear to be taking HD 16:9 format and shrinking to SD 16:9 format, but with the SD widescreen info compressed into 720x480, and then expanded using 1.333 PAR.

On the other hand, my original footage is also 1.333 PAR (1440x1080) - so I'm starting with 1920x1080 compressed into 1440x1080!? Maybe it's a wash???

Or would it be better to 'expand' the raw horixontal 1440 to 1920 in a 1440x1080 comp in AE (4:3)....and then export as a 720x480 non-widescreen cineform avi?

will AE create a good a cineform avi as HD link? is it the same codec being used?

If not, maybe I could just export the 4:3 1440x1080 sq pixel comp from AE as an avi file, then use HD link to downsize to an SD 4:3 file???

AAAhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

I just completed a short with mixed footage, SD and HD at 720P(not my choice, director's choice). I intentionally shot 720p in order to better match the final output format. I tried several different approaches and picked the one that gave me the sharpest looking result. For me, the best method was to transcode all the footage, SD and HD, up front with NeoHD, into SD formatted Cineform DI. After injesting all the transcoded footage into Avid, I had to crop the SD footage to match the widescreen format of the HD footage. This method gave pretty good results considering that working with the Cineform DI, I was working in 10-bit. No upscaling was performed, to avoid making the SD footage even softer than it started. Final output was to DVD, everything remained astonishingly sharp. Even the SD looked OK against the HD.

Ok I see! Did you ever try lynda.com on line training? it will get you up to speed real fast and I think they even give you a 7 day trial. I love it for all it has to offer.

Bruce:

Thanks for the suggestion. I used my free time on something else.

I've been doing tests for the last few days.

I started with DVC PRO HD footage (1440x1080 1.333 par) and XD CAM EX footage (1280x1080 1.5 par) and down sized them to SD widescreen.

First I tried HD link to downsize them to the cineform intermedairy

Then I tried After Effects - and 'outputted' to standard AVI, CF AVI or BlackMagic AVI.

I really can't see any difference in quality between any of these methods. they all look good.

does anyone know if the cineform will maintain quality better as it passes thru PPro CS4 with effects and color-correction added?

any other reasons to go with one method over another?

hi Robert did take them all the way to Dvd? And view them on 40 or50 inch LCD tv. There is where you will see the difference! A big difference! Adobes compression is really bad goi g to SD DVD!

no - didn't end up on DVD. we're only going to video tape. I compared by looking at a 14" production monitor.

david newman sez best quality staying in HD thru edit, then downsize. but not sure my computer will handle editing in HD with animation and effects, etc.

So I don't know what to do. and I need to decide fast! :(

I've used a variation of Bob Young's and David's method for editing AVCHD footage to wide screen DVD (PAR 1.2).

After converting to Cineform .avi Progressive with HDLink (1920x1080) PAR 1.0, I've imported the footage into a Cineform 1920x1080 project, edited and then output using Export-Movie with as Cineform.avi Progressive, 720x480 (widescreen or PAR 1.2).
I then import this into an Encore project and have Encore encode as MPEG2 for the DVD.
This I think, looks good on a 65 inch TV playing with PS3.

I'm using PP3 and an AMD quad core (XP Pro, SP3). ProspectHD.

The only problem comes up when I try to incorporate some graphics using AE. Here, I used a 1920x1080 comp size and exported either as Quicktime, or Cineform. Neither of these would play on the above timeline unless I rendered them first (Hit enter and redline over these converted to green), which took quite a while. (interestingly, the cineform codec's default is with alpha channel ie RGB+).

I don't know whether the AE problem is related to the computer, but I would think that a quad core could handle this. Anybody else having this problem with AE playing on the ProspectHD timeline?

John Rich

after doing tests and comparing, I've decided down rez using AE. I'll import my 1440x1080 1.333par footage into a 1440x1080 1.333par comp in AE, then export to SD widescreen avi.

To my eye this conversion method looks as good as any...

I've decided to edit the original footage and then downconvert. Hopefully PPro CS4
won't bog down...

Trying to convert my original video files (.mxf files from a P2 card) is way too time consuming. each mxf file is 'buried' at the end of a cascade of folders, and each clip is labled with a random alphanumeric code, so each interview is broken up into multiple clips with unrelated names!

I just keep telling myself, "2 months from now it will all be done"...