I was reading the Panasonic info on the new P2 cards announced at NAB, but had a few questions. The price has been lowered significantly, but I got the impression that the new cards will not last as long as the previous P2 cards. I believe that Panasonic said that with once-a-day recording, the new e-P2 cards will last about five years. Is card wear only dependent on recording, or would they also wear out in five years if the card were played back daily? They also seemed to imply that the new cards may not be quite a physically rugged as the earlier cards. Either way, they would be fine for my purposes, but I was curious about the differences.

I have just ordered a 301 with four 32gb E cards, five years is the quoted time span but that will be fine for me and it ties in with the five year warranty.
They certainly look robust enough as they are still alluminium cased, I will haev them in about a week so can report more then.

Gary

Where did you order them, I was under the impression they weren't out yet?

Thanks
Alden

Prestons in the UK have them:Panasonic AJ-P2E032XG P2 (http://www.videokit.co.uk/2328-panasonic-aj-p2e032xg-32-gig-p2-card.html)

John Preston said all my kit was in stock so it will be with me by the end of next week.

According to my sources the time limit on the E Cards is software controlled. Panasonic is using a different internal technology compared to the previous cards as well which helps with the price. It will be interesting to see if someone cracks the software code to extend the cycle limit on the cards or whether there is a true technological reason for the time limit.

Use of once a day for five years is plenty enough for me, I have ordered the duel adaptor for the mackbook so the cards will be used in rotation and dumped to pro res daily.

On my shoot yesterday we used 1 32 Gig card, 3 16gig cards and we used the 32 gig for 2 cycles and 2 of the 3 16 gigs for two cycles so it is relatively easy to see how having only a few cards could cycle faster than people might realize. Still not a big deal but worth noting

According to my sources the time limit on the E Cards is software controlled. Panasonic is using a different internal technology compared to the previous cards as well which helps with the price. It will be interesting to see if someone cracks the software code to extend the cycle limit on the cards or whether there is a true technological reason for the time limit.


In another thread, maybe on DVX user, Barry Green said they worked like a disk drive. As memory locations stop working, they are mapped out of availability. So, you'd see a gradual decrease in space over time and eventually they'd announce themselves bad.

Yes, disk drives do the same thing--totally transparently. They generally have a reserve space so that is mapped in so you don't notice a decrease.

Yes, it is a software process but it is not planned obsolescence. I don't know this for a Panasonic-given fact but it makes sense.

Andy,
I also heard the explanation you are referring to of how the new E cards worked when they first came out. I heard a different explanation more recently which made me doubt the initial explanation. I don't take this sources opinion lightly as they have had many years in the business. My experience with harddrives is they tend to fail to be reliable when the software has to map out new bad sectors. It remains to be seen if someone will try and extend the life of an E version card after the software has reached its designated cycle cut off. Most manufacturers would underestimate the durability of their products in this case so they don't run into too many early failures requiring reimbursement. Guarantee it for a number of cycles which 99.9 percent of the cards can achieve without problem. There is a good chance that 95 percent of the cards would last substantially longer. An example in this field was how long would video heads last on a machine. Some machines would last double the hours the manufacturer would recommend before needing replacement while others barely lasted what the manufacturer recommended. The person I was talking to thought the new E cards could function a lot longer than the software cycle was going to allow. Maybe he is wrong maybe not

Gotta admit the idea of software-determined obsolescence feels like usury to me. Why not just let gear wear out on it's own the old fashioned way?

-Noah

Gotta admit the idea of software-determined obsolescence feels like usury to me. Why not just let gear wear out on it's own the old fashioned way?

-Noah

the old fashioned way?
V
Latest Technology,

Days of Quality, long lasting products, are a fast fading memory, kinda nice idea though.
You just have to make it pay for it's self prior to it reaching it's "expiration" date.

Cheers
Tom K

Another viewpoint is this. If I am shooting on P2 - I want the data to be recorded with 100% certainty. Not 99.9999%. If Panny could only guarantee its E-P2 cards to be of a certain lifespan - I am not going to argue with that. If I am shooting a once-in-a-lifetime video - I don't want that E-P2 card to fail on me, just because we need to extend it's recording lifetime by a couple of months.

I also noticed an interesting question posted earlier on - does the wear and tear of the E-P2 cards only happen on the write cycle or both read and write? Meaning, if I record once, but read 100 times - does the 100 read cycles contribute to the shortened lifespan of the card?

Hi TingSern Wong

sounds like you don't want it "Both Ways", a good question, I think that for 99% of P2 users the E-series cards will be fine, Every thing has a "Use BY" date, even the Highest quality, Highest priced R-series cards won't last forever they may fail any time also. I bet most R-series are redundant prior to being "worn-out", there is most likely a better/cheaper medium for aquisition on the drawing boards already.
Only wish the E-series were out prior to me purchasing three 32's and four 8's, all R-series, all very expensive.

E-series card buyers will turn a profit much faster than us early investors in P2.

Cheers

Hi Tom,

Yup - I deliberately delayed my purchase of higher capacity P2 cards for nearly 6 months - using the 60GB HDDs to offset the lack of capacity in the original P2 cards. Whew - I was lucky here.

Now, waiting for the 64GB E-P2 cards to be available - was told by end-August this year.

Of course, the question might be theoretical ... for me, I shoot on my HVX172, then read them into my workstation's RAID hard-disks and then work from there. So, for my case, one write, one read, then erase.

Other people who have the P2 enabled card readers from Panny or other sources - might not be the case. For them - one write, many reads, then erase. So - for them, this question of read cycles contributing to the degradation of memory cells might be relevant to them.

I do know - a newer technology of doing memory cells will put this degradation away forever. Panasonic could incorporate them into another series of P2 cards when this is available ....

Cheers,
TS

Prestons have the 64gb cards now:AJ-P2E064XG (http://www.videokit.co.uk/2329-panasonic-aj-p2e064xg-64gig-p2.html)

I suppose it makes sense to limit the card lifespan and as stated this happens on hard drives too.

What will be happening is that if the card sees a bad block it will automatically add it to the bad block map.

There are normally two bad block maps on a drive, the first one at manufacturer and is fixed. The second is dynamic and every time the disk is formatted it adds any new found bad blocks to the map and then knows not to try to write to them.

For big broadcasters like the BBC and SKY who use P2 a lot this E card mapping is good news as it allows them to manage their card useage and maintain integrity of rushes data.

64GB E-series available now? That's impossible. From their website (videokit.co.uk) ...

The 64GB E-Series P2 card will be available in August at a suggested list price of 720€.

Please read the website carefully :-).

64GB E-series available now? That's impossible. From their website (videokit.co.uk) ...

The 64GB E-Series P2 card will be available in August at a suggested list price of 720€.

Please read the website carefully :-).

Sorry TingSern I stand corrected and I didnt read all the detail, I just looked on this page and saw that they are marked as available:H Preston (http://www.videokit.co.uk/search.php?search_query=p2+cards&submit_search=Search)

That's okay, Gary :-).

Just found these releases re Fuji's E-series P2 card line up, they may be an alternative to pana's offerings, at least it's a choice some will explore.
Most likely they come from the same factory as Pana's ?

PR-USA.net - FUJIFILM Showcases New P2 Memory Cards at NAB 2009 (http://pr-usa.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=200904&Itemid=28)
FUJIFILM Showcases New P2 Memory Cards at NAB 2009 (http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/Fujifilm-NASDAQ-FUJI-976595.html)
Fujifilm Expands Professional Video Portfolio with P2 Format | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS116964+07-Apr-2008+BW20080407)

may dump my 8gigs R-series and get some E-series 32's, as I shoot SD DVCPro50 64 gig would be overkill for me.

They don't see Fuji's P2 cards in Singapore. We can only get Panny's P2 cards.

For me, the 64GB E-P2 cards are heaven-sent :-). I shoot HD-720p (and sometimes, in the mountains / wilderness areas, for up to a month at a time) - so the 64GB means I don't need to carry so many P2 cards with me - and along with it, the possibility of dropping the P2 cards down a ravine.

I bought a 32gig Fuji late last year here in OZ, interesting you can't get them in singapore, yes the first time i swapped out a card in the field my heart was pumping too, as I did not want to drop it >
Funny thing, you can buy a good used car here in OZ for the cost of a R-series card.

Yup - some things you can get Down Under - you can't find here. I think the importer isn't interested in Singapore market - too small (and too specialised) for them.

I just got myself 3 tapes ... DLT VS1 tapes that is - only one shop in Singapore sells it ... and took me months to hunt for it. And incidentally, BluRay recordables are still very rare here - about SIN$25 for one. However, DVD+/-R disks are very common (about SIN$20 for 55).

Right - back to E-P2 cards - yes, that's exactly my point of not trying to swap P2 cards in the field ... so, for me, the larger the capacity of the card, the better ... HVX172 can take 2 P2 cards - that's make it for 128GB (2 x 64GB) ... plenty of recording time for me. Now, hoping Panny can actually deliver that card on time .......

Yes, I suppose that's why the US market gets the first bite of the cherry on new products, size matters as they say. we smaller markets get the dregs or old technology is dumped off here. someone once said to me "we are a dumping ground", maybe they were right.

I Just set up a Pioneer Blu-Ray burner on my Macpro (in an external USB and esata case ) cost was $280 AUD for the burner , small extra $'s for the ext case. using Toast Titanum Ten software, BR blanks are still expensive but will drop over time as have DVD's.

BluRay writer prices are okay. About $250 - $300 locally. It is the blanks that are expensive .. not sure if they are viable long term - given that one OZ researcher just did a 2,000 GB optical media (you did read that correctly - 2,000 GB) - and told Samsung to make the drives :-). Now, if we know the Koreans - they will be jumping up and down in bed ... given the opportunity to beat the rest of the world. We see in due course .......

I have had the odd request for Blu-Ray so I decide to get a burner and have a play..still, much cheaper than my first DVD burner from memory I paid $1100 AUD, and with-in 12 months they were under $200.
but we all learnt so much. now DVD is great 99% of the time.

2000gig, whoa,that may shake the market, But I think DVD is here for some time yet, it's cheap and every man and his dog can burn / play them.

Understand your point. Locally, nobody is interested in BluRay at all. Not even large companies. DVDs are good enough for them. Most of them only has SD players - no HD. Hence, no use for BluRay for me right now.

Hi TingSern Wong

sounds like you don't want it "Both Ways", a good question, I think that for 99% of P2 users the E-series cards will be fine, Every thing has a "Use BY" date, even the Highest quality, Highest priced R-series cards won't last forever they may fail any time also. I bet most R-series are redundant prior to being "worn-out", there is most likely a better/cheaper medium for aquisition on the drawing boards already.
Only wish the E-series were out prior to me purchasing three 32's and four 8's, all R-series, all very expensive.

E-series card buyers will turn a profit much faster than us early investors in P2.

Cheers

That's fine but I've personally never, ever seen a Flash card, P2 or SDHC card stop working. I thought the whole point of this technology was no moving parts, lasts forever. So the idea of artificially limiting a card's life span to a specific number of cycles is about profit, not about 'protecting' users from some sort of failure.

If a memory fails on it's own, that's fine. It happens once and you'll know about it immediately and get another when. But why should it fail just because the software tells it to? Imagine if you bought a computer that said on the box, will stop working in exactly two years to protect you from experiencing the potential of a natural failure. Wouldn't you feel kinda gypped?

-Noah

my first DVD burner from memory I paid $1100 AUD, and with-in 12 months they were under $200.

The company I worked for paid $5000 for the first Pioneer burner on the market (it burned DVD (A) discs.) It think it would have been around 1998 or 1999.

Daniel Weber

"If a memory fails on it's own, that's fine"
Yep, any piece of electronic must fail one day or another.
So if the manufacturer does limit the lifetime of such device to a predefined time or cycle, it is to make sure it does not happen randomly (and some law says it always be at the worst moment).
So they can print on the package, that the memory is ok for 50.000 write cycle and you know that there is very little chances that will happen before.
on the other hand, you can guess that some cards "could" operate properly on 70.000 write cycle or even more. But chances there would be a failure will go up significantly too.
I am not sure people would accept that.

Hello Daniel,

From Memory my First DVD Burner was the Pioneer A01, it made many many coasters out of $35 AUD blank DVD's , This early foray into DVD , yes back in the last millenium, was an expensive exercise indeed.
was yours a Video disc burner , $5000 sounds over the top..
Cheers

That's fine but I've personally never, ever seen a Flash card, P2 or SDHC card stop working. I thought the whole point of this technology was no moving parts, lasts forever. So the idea of artificially limiting a card's life span to a specific number of cycles is about profit, not about 'protecting' users from some sort of failure.
If a memory fails on it's own, that's fine. It happens once and you'll know about it immediately and get another when. But why should it fail just because the software tells it to? Imagine if you bought a computer that said on the box, will stop working in exactly two years to protect you from experiencing the potential of a natural failure. Wouldn't you feel kinda gypped?

-Noah
Hi Noah,
I have many industry colleagues who repair current electronic equipment, they tell me (and I believe them) that most goods built these days are built to last not much more than the warranty period.
I have personally owned many devices that last not much longer than the warranty period, that is where I base my opinions on longevity of current electronic devices.
I believe that as you pointed out above (said on the box, will stop working in exactly two years) that is the case , it's just called another name,"Warranty"
seriously, does anyone believe a R-series P2 card will "Last Forever" , I don't.

EG, about 3months ago I replaced 7 DVD burners in my Burn Tower (with brand new units of course), now two burners in the stack are failing to burn/verify and will have to be replaced, they may have only burnt 30 or so disc's each. they all have 12 months warraty,go figure ?, Nothing lasts forever.
Cheers

Noah, look into MLC memory vs. SLC memory. Two different technologies, and SLC memory will last 10x as long as MLC.

MLC is cheaper. It's denser. You can store multiple bits per cell (hence the "M", meaning Multi).

SLC memory lasts much longer, and you can read lots of articles on MLC vs. SLC when you look into SSD drives.

SLC memory should last for 100,000 rewrite cycles, MLC memory lasts for about 10,000.

As to the question of whether reading the memory will cause it to wear out, I don't think so but don't know for sure. It's my understanding that it's "rewrite" cycles that are limiting the lifespan, MLC only supports up to 10,000 rewrites. So possibly you could read it a million billion times but write only 10,000 times?

Barry - it will be important to me, and I'm sure to others, that if the card expiration is indeed software-controlled, is it based only on the number of record cycles, or is playback also counted. If playback is counted, I will ensure that I use older series cards for frequent playback and the E-series for record and dump once. If Panasonic could clear this up it would be helpful.

MLC memory should last for 100,000 rewrite cycles, SLC memory lasts for about 10,000.



Barry,

I believe you got that mixed up :-). SLC memory will last 100,000 rewrite cycles, whereas MLC will only go 10,000 times.

Cheers,
TS

Edited and fixed.

100,000 rewrite cycles?
the connectors will be well worn out prior to that being achieved, in the real world of field shooting, grit etc will get amongst the sockets and pins, and speed up the wear factor.

May I re-say with respect, "Nothing lasts forever".

Cheers

100,000 rewrite cycles?
the connectors will be well worn out prior to that being achieved, in the real world of field shooting, grit etc will get amongst the sockets and pins, and speed up the wear factor.

May I re-say with respect, "Nothing lasts forever".

Cheers

Connectors have been tested to 30,000 insert/remove cycles. But with the bigger cards, it may come to the point where people never even remove their cards. If you had two 64gb cards, which could record 12 hours of 720/24pN footage in AVC-I 50, it's conceivable that you could leave those two cards in-camera all day long, and transfer at night. You'd never need to swap, as you couldn't physically shoot more (in a normal 10-hour day) than you could fit on the cards!

In any case, yes, 100,000 rewrite cycles. And yes, I've asked and been told that read cycles do not contribute to them wearing down, you can read as many times as you want, it's writing that wears out the memory.

Hi Barry,

If the connectors have been tested to 30.000 insertion / remove cycles, does that mean that they failed at that point or did they consider it was their life cycle limit ?. Saying that they are good for 100.000 writes but only testing insert / remove to one third of that, leaves me thinking Hmmmmm.

Bigger capacity P2 cards sure will reduce the need for removal for reading on bigger shoots, but for many shoots as news/EFP/etc, shooting 10-20mins is about the norm.
The two slot P2 camera's will have cards removed /inserted many more times than the four and five slot P2 cameras.
The newer E-series will be welcomed by many users, I doubt whether the R-series will survive the long haul, probably fade into techno oblivion.
cheers

If the connectors have been tested to 30.000 insertion / remove cycles, does that mean that they failed at that point or did they consider it was their life cycle limit ?
It is my understanding that they had a machine physically plug in and remove the card 30,000 times with no failures, and they said "okay, that's good enough for us." There was no failure, but 30,000 times of plugging it in and out (which equates to inserting and pulling the card 3x a day every day for 10 years) was enough to get the point across.

Saying that they are good for 100.000 writes but only testing insert / remove to one third of that, leaves me thinking Hmmmmm.
Why? Many folks don't even pull their cards out at all, using the camera as the offload station. But if 30,000 times aren't enough for you, well... :)

Panasonic has released some details about the new firmware needed to make the E-Series cards be all they can be. Check out the chart on their site - https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/support/desk/e/update.htm#p2_card

And I wrote up a little article on my blog as well - E-Series P2 Card Firmware Updates | CineTechnica (http://blog.abelcine.com/2009/05/27/e-series-p2-card-firmware-updates/)

Hey Andy,
Thanks for the valuable information. It seems like Panasonic has kept quiet about this issue as no one has mentioned it to me before seeing your post and I have asked a lot of people about these cards coming out. Seems to me if Panasonic is saying delivery is at the end of May but the the cards will not function fully until they release a firmware upgrade which is anywhere from 1 to 3 months after the cards are available they are not putting their best foot forward.

Hi Barry,

Some folks in News and simmilar demanding areas will insert and withdraw many times during a days work, sure some shooters will never withdraw , so maybe if the tests assumed that 30.000 would be enough, well, Hmmmmm.
I personally would have run the tests to the point of some sort of failure, much like any tests on products these days to determine a realworld lifespan.
Also in the realworld there are issues encountered that can't be duplicated on the "test bench", that may also have a great bearing on longevity.
News crews in my experience generally use smaller cards (8g-16g)as they can have more cards per camera for a days shoot, and off load times are faster than dumping a full 32or64gig for example, and helps to make the camera op to shoot "tight" knowing they have say a 15min limit @ DV50, or 30min Limit for DVCpro25.

Andy, Great piece of info re these new E-series cards, I see that my camera (SPX800)is one that dosen't need firmware, that's nice to know. Interesting that most products on pana's list that are good with the new E-series cards are the older units.

Cheers

I just got my 301 today, I ordered and paid for four 32gb E cards, it has been delivered with A cards so I am very happy bunny!

Hi Gary,

well done, Just make sure they don't want to "swap the cards over" when the e-series hits the shelves.

cheers

And I wrote up a little article on my blog as well - E-Series P2 Card Firmware Updates | CineTechnica (http://blog.abelcine.com/2009/05/27/e-series-p2-card-firmware-updates/)

Hi Andy,

I read your blog and then spent the next hour or so trying to track down your source for the VFR statement. I think you have it misstated.

From our Compatibility Sheet: Without the upgrade, P2 camcorder and recording equipment may experience error messages when recording over multiple P2 cards (Spanned Recording).
These “REC Warning Error” messages may appear in the P2 camcorder’s viewfinder or the P2 recorder’s LCD screen during Spanned Recording when utilizing the following modes:
a. INTERVAL REC MODE (in DV or DVCPRO)
b. LOOP REC MODE (in DV or DVCPRO)
c. NORMAL REC MODE (in DV or DVCPRO)

Note that all of these are Standard Definition Modes.

d. VARIABLE FRAME RATE RECORDING/NORMAL in the 12p or 15p VFR settings in DVCPRO HD
720/24pN, 720/25pN or 720/30pN (AG-HVX200/AG-HVX200A, AG-HPX170 and AG-HPX500 models only)


This is the part you had me chasing after, as on your blog it sounded like it was in all VFR modes and cameras and it is not. And even better it isn't the more common side of the VFR use, more people do overcrank vs. undercrank. Good news is that it is a quick fix and that fix isn't that far away.

Best regards,

Jan

I think it's important to point out a few similarities that P2 shares with it's sibling flash memory, CF cards. Most would say that it's nearest neighbor is the SD card because P2 media is built around SDHC modules however, a standalone SD or SDHC card doesn't use standing-posts for it's connectivity but rather flat-side connectors, which by the way is NOT considered to have a long service life and is in fact a consumer-grade connector.

As someone who's always been a quick adopter of new technology I drooled at the prospect of dropping 35mm film canisters for CF-memory flash media when shooting stills. Believe it or not I still have one of the very first mass-produced pro DSLR's produced by Canon (the 1D) and it's had it's internal post connections gone through literally tens of thousands of insert/remove cycles with standard CF media. Never once has there been a failure related to it's CF media connections.

P2 uses the same style of physical connectivity (albeit with a larger post-panel) which is one of the main reasons why my company was one of the first adopters of P2 technology for commercial purposes; I KNEW that connector-type would stand up to as much use as I or my crew could dish out.

I often talk with the west-coast repair facility for Panny and to date they've never had a service call related to card connectivity - with exception to those who abuse the card slots by slamming in the cards like they were slamming a door shut.

As for required firmware to have the cameras become compatible with newer, faster media that has been the case ever since the "R" series 16GB cards were announced. Consider it a bonus that the entire P2 system allows for such user-upgradability rather than expensive trips to the repair shop just to keep working.

Honestly I've never understood why so many choose to fuss over these minor details. The entire P2 system including the physical media has proven itself beyond expectations both by my production company and others who've adopted it and remains the most robust, user-friendly and well thought-out system offered by any manufacturer. Not since the days of D2 or D5 has any company produced such a well-rounded product line.

Get the cards, get the firmware updates and use it like there's no tomorrow - just don't "spank" your cards home and you'll be rewarded with literally years of reliable "take it to the bank" service. If you need to spank something I know this chick in LA... (big laughs).

Robert,
I would love to get the cards and the firmware update but they are not all being delivered or ready for my camera yet. Not sure I want to buy cards and then wait for a firmware update to se get the same functionality I expect with the older cards

This is the part you had me chasing after, as on your blog it sounded like it was in all VFR modes and cameras and it is not. And even better it isn't the more common side of the VFR use, more people do overcrank vs. undercrank. Good news is that it is a quick fix and that fix isn't that far away.

Best regards,

Jan

Thanks for the correction. I've updated the blog as well. We have E-Series cards in stock now by the way. So give us a call if you are interested.