I am thinking of buying the Red Rock follow focus and am wondering of anyone has used it not only to rotate the focus ring but also the zoom ring? I am used to a smooth motorised zoom from pro lenses and also from the zoom that came with my XL-H1, but find I cannot replicate it by manually turning the lens ring of a Canon lens mounted on the 5D Mk II while filming. Any other suggestions apart from a FF unit would be welcome.

I would also like some information about this. I have been thinking about whether or not it's possible and can't for the life of me think of a reason that it wouldn't work.

the zoom via follow focus would be neat. wonder how it would work?

Just saw a rig for this somewhere, maybe Cavisions site? It was basically a dual follow-focus rig, with a right side dial for the zoom and left side for focus.

Thanks for the lead - I checked out Cavision and the answer appears to be here

Basic Mini Single Wheel Follow Focus - Dual Setup (http://www.cavision.com/followfocus/dualmini.htm)

For a smoother manual zoom you don't need something a elaborate as a follow focus which may not be very useful without a large knob anyway. You simply need a lens ring with a lever attachment that gives you something more substantial to hang on to but also crucially allows your hand to move through a much larger arc. It's easier to create a smooth movement by rotating your hand & wrist through 90 degrees rather than rolling a focus ring between forefinger & thumb.

When zooming, the effect is immediately obvious on the frame and thus to the viewer. Consistency of speed and feathering of starts and stops are both critical to making zooms invisible (if that is the goal), otherwise, a snap zoom is all about speed and accuracy and landing at the exact focal length desired. For a follow-focus type mechanism to work best for a zoom, it has to have just enough drag that one can enact a super-slow zoom and feel a certain amount of resistance; too little, and the hand has nothing to "lean against", too much and you fight against the friction which results in erratic bursts of speed. As Nigel indicates, a larger hand motion is much more effective at simulating a continuous movement. This is the theory behind the geared head, where the big rotation of a generous and weighted handwheel allows the operator to create a super smooth pan or tilt; contrast this to doing the same thing on a fluid head where the operator must train the muscles to perform like a machine, applying a tiny and perfectly linear force to the head (which of course provides an adjustable amount of resistance to make this possible). Old pedestal type studio television cameras had a large zoom crank for this reason.

Zoom levers work OK by the principal of leverage; many years ago I used to take a ballpoint pen, empty out the ink cartridge and stick it on the tiny little lever on my camcorder to increase the leverage and required arc (still not a bad trick)! I'm not particularly convinced about the use of a follow focus to do the same thing. Certainly it's better than just a couple of digits on the barrel of the lens, but I would keep looking for other mechanisms. Maybe it's time to bring back the crank zoom! I just remembered the venerable Angeneuix 12-120 16mm lens that had an integrated crank--here's a pic:

http://xl1solutions.com/i-1_B.jpg

I sometimes just use a zip tie on the focus wheel to get a nice follow focus at a penny price, the truth is follow focus is often best done with a "speed crank" and that is pretty much what a lever does. I also mark focus cues on lens barrel with white tape.

I have not tried it on zoom wheels yet, but it would probably work fine.

There are a lot of different zip tie weights, if you use a long one that is stiff you can have a long lever. The thinner ones flex nicely for smooth stops and starts. I usually cut them so they stick out 1-2", heavy ones can be 6" long.

This may sound silly, but a few people that have seen me do this are blown away with the result. It is certainly worth a try.

When zooming, the effect is immediately obvious on the frame and thus to the viewer. Consistency of speed and feathering of starts and stops are both critical to making zooms invisible (if that is the goal), otherwise, a snap zoom is all about speed and accuracy and landing at the exact focal length desired. For a follow-focus type mechanism to work best for a zoom, it has to have just enough drag that one can enact a super-slow zoom and feel a certain amount of resistance; too little, and the hand has nothing to "lean against", too much and you fight against the friction which results in erratic bursts of speed. As Nigel indicates, a larger hand motion is much more effective at simulating a continuous movement. This is the theory behind the geared head, where the big rotation of a generous and weighted handwheel allows the operator to create a super smooth pan or tilt; contrast this to doing the same thing on a fluid head where the operator must train the muscles to perform like a machine, applying a tiny and perfectly linear force to the head (which of course provides an adjustable amount of resistance to make this possible). Old pedestal type studio television cameras had a large zoom crank for this reason.

Good point! Let me add another challenge to the pile...
Since we're talking about 35mm still lenses, there's also the fact that almost none of these (save the push/pull models) zoom smoothly through the whole range. So on top of the challenge of spinning a wheel consistantly, you've also got to ramp up the force (or limit your zoom range) at the right time to avoid suddenly losing/gaining speed in the zoom. Like you said, a large hand motion would help, but I prefer the following method:


many years ago I used to take a ballpoint pen, empty out the ink cartridge and stick it on the tiny little lever on my camcorder to increase the leverage and required arc (still not a bad trick)!

I've done this with a pen and a heavy elastic band for years from a tip I got off DVinfo, and in retrospect, I'm pretty sure it was from you!

here's a dedicated solution from Chrosziel
www.chrosziel.com/data/chrosziel/media/doc/InfoPage-DSLR_english.pdf

Many, many years ago a mentor of mine said this, "Living zooming is a sure sign of the amateur. Frame your shots. If you want drama get a dolly." I've stuck to that to this day. Zooming is for soccer mom's, framing is for professionals.

my $.02

Zooming is for soccer mom's, framing is for professionals.Then again, zooming is also for news and live sports - and when you want a POV amateur shot in your film. :)

Zooming is for soccer mom's, framing is for professionals.

I guess that makes me a soccer mum :-) (although I do try to carefully frame and control both ends of my zoom, which I guess this thread is about). I have a dolly, a glidecam and a jib arm, but I still find plenty of opportunities to zoom, and I do miss the slow, smooth zoom of a camera like the XHA1 when I'm using the 5D.

For intance, I was just shooting a doco on an Island from which you can glimpse a major city. Using the XHA1 I was able to do a tight shot of the city then zoom wide to include the city, the cliffs of the island I was shooting from, and the sea between. It was a way of contextualising the island for viewers that I couldn't have achieved without a zoom.

I often use slow, creeping zooms in nature shoots and corporate vids, although I wouldn't use one for a drama. A lot of times it's impractical to take a dolly along, or it just doesn't achieve the degree of movement required.

Rather ironically, I have a redrock follow focus but I can't test out how well it works with a zoom as I sold the three zooms I had - they weren't getting much use on the 5D as I've been using primes. I never thought of using the follow focus that way, dang.

Many, many years ago a mentor of mine said this, "Living zooming is a sure sign of the amateur. Frame your shots. If you want drama get a dolly." I've stuck to that to this day. Zooming is for soccer mom's, framing is for professionals.

my $.02

The key here is "many, many years ago". For a long time, zooming was considered "dated" following the initial craze in the 70's--you can see tons of them in amazing films (how about that opening shot of "The Conversation"?!) as well as the dreck from that area. Starting about 10 years ago, zooms have crept back into acceptance for features and episodic, and they can be downright cool these days if used with discretion and creativity. The key is to deciding when to use them rather than just substituting them for a dolly move. I work with one particular DP who I introduced to the Radio Microforce (http://prestoncinema.com/products_radiomicroforce.html), which allows him to sit at the monitor and work the zoom while I do a Steadicam shot. He tweaks my frame around, I respond to that, he responds back--we have a marvelous little dance that keeps things interesting and ever evolving.

Don't be afraid of the groovy zoom, folks! Have fun with it!

Many, many years ago a mentor of mine said this, "Living zooming is a sure sign of the amateur. Frame your shots. If you want drama get a dolly." I've stuck to that to this day. Zooming is for soccer mom's, framing is for professionals.

my $.02

The key here is "many, many years ago". For a long time, zooming was considered a dated concept following the initial craze in the 70's--you can see tons of them in amazing films (how about that opening shot of "The Conversation"?!) as well as the dreck from that area. Starting about 10 years ago, zooms have crept back into acceptance for features and episodic, and they can be downright cool these days if used with discretion and creativity. The key is to deciding when to use them rather than just substituting them for a dolly move. I work with one particular DP who I introduced to the Radio Microforce (http://prestoncinema.com/products_radiomicroforce.html), which allows him to sit at the monitor and work the zoom while I do a Steadicam shot. He tweaks my frame around, I respond to that, he responds back--we have a marvelous little dance that keeps things interesting and ever evolving.

Don't be afraid of the groovy zoom, folks! Have fun with it!

Then again, zooming is also for news and live sports - and when you want a POV amateur shot in your film. :)

Seriously, the 5D makes pretty images, but the last place I'd use it is for sports and news. I shot sports for six years and I can't imagine (even with a third party rig like Red Rock or Zatuco) throwing this puppy on my shoulder and running up and down the sidelines. Nor would I want to. Thats not what makes this camera great. It's like using a hammer to put in a screw, it's not it's function. Now would I use a 5D on a great nature doc? Yep. On interviews? Yep. For Cowboys vs. Redskins? Hell no. For instant coverage of the train wreck down the street? Hell no.

This is not a news camera. This is not a sports camera. This a camera to make pretty pictures when you have the time to do setups properly and make full use of the primes that you can now use. Isn't that the whole reason we're buying these things? To take full advantage on the bokeh? Now you want to zoom like an MTV junky? Have at it. I'm going to continue making pretty picayune moving images.

I have my third live event under my belt where the 5D was my sole camera in use. All three times were under duress..... my main cam was down.

Here is where I have forced myself to examine the possibility of buying the tools to make the cam more capable at run and gun, hence the search for improved zoom control.

Fact is the portability, low light and amazing image as well as all of the other good stuff just makes it hard to go back to hauling my EX and all the related stuff that makes the bag super heavy.

For event shooters like me that makes a huge difference in how our lower backs feel around age 40 :)

Being a Glide cam user I RARELY zoom except for the walks. Frame and shoot, or glide but a smooth zoom would be nice if even just for the walks.

Thanks to all for the killer sugestions.

David,

I agree. This ain't no broadcast cam.

But if I drove by a house on fire and had my camera with me, voila, it's a news cam. If I get the footage before the news truck can get there, I win. I don't even need 24p, though I sure would like audio gain control and monitoring for single system recording.

And it could be a good camera for sports background stories, a la NFL Films. Certainly, we won't see it live on Sunday afternoon.

In both news and sports context, we are often limited as to where we can be. Showing the context and zooming into the action or the crowd can be effective. Dollies and Steadicams aren't always options.

But I think we're mixing up two concepts. One is "should zooms be shot?", and the other is "what does the 5D2 do well or poorly?"

All that said, I only own primes. ;)

Starting about 10 years ago, zooms have crept back into acceptance for features and episodic, and they can be downright cool these days if used with discretion and creativity.
Charles, I'm sure I'm not thinking hard enough, but I don't think I can recall a single non-ironic use of a zoom in/out in mainstream feature filmmaking since about 1979. Maybe there are real subtle zooms during steadicam that went over my head, but I'm talking about a real, "hey, I'm using a zoom" kind of shot. Can you point me to one?

I mean, it all comes down to taste, of course. If you can do something unconventional and make it work, more power to you... But my immediate reaction to seeing a zoom shot is to snicker.

That said, many DPs, who would rarely zoom during a shot, swear by zooms simply because cuts down on lens changes and speeds up production. You see a lot of zooms flipping through the pages of AC.

Honestly there are so many--action scenes are full of snap zooms and little reframes here and there to add energy; super-slow zooms during intense dramatic scenes; hidden zooms during pans and pushes etc. are all over the place (combo push in on dolly/zoom very common and virtually impossible to detect). I know this because I've done them on features and episodic myself and seen them elsewhere. They don't really jump out because they are what they are--just another tool in the toolbox.

One example of a filmmaker who loved zooms and never really stopped using them was Altman--he chilled out a bit from his really audacious earlier efforts in the 70's but I recall that there was plenty going on in Gosford Park which wasn't all that long ago.

Wish I could be more specific, it's just not something that really stands out enough for me to be able to quote chapter and verse. I'll keep my eyes open though.

I wonder if this on the zoom ring too might be helpful
Cheap follow focus DIY on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/4270555)

I really need zoom.

The focus and the zoom are camera shakers for me.

I use zoom for shooting concert gigs where I want to include the whole band and then zoom in to the lead singer for close up shots. Without a second camera what other way could this be done?
I usually do as steady and gradual a zoom as possible and this last time i actually experimented with the very fast zoom which turned out looking like total crap. I use Sony Vegas Studio 9 PE.
I'd cut out the shaky zooms but need the music to sync. My short term solution is to fade in still shots that pan smothly over the shaky zooms but I'm a relative beginner to this group and have been searching and reading all i can but haven't found a solution yet.

If there was a way to successfully keep the audio in sync and i could somehow edit out the jerky video.

TIA

Chroziel make a zoom rig for the 5d2 you can see it on there website

How about the contra - zoom 1st seen in Jaws. Gosh I wonder how the 5d2 would manage that? I must try.

You could try a fluid zoom drive.

Chrosziel GmbH - For TV and movie productions (http://www.chrosziel.com/prod.asp?wdid=20&pid=246&sid=0)

I'm with Charles on the zoom, correctly used they're great. Although, they were the shallow DOF of the 1960s and 70s. A bit of flare also helped. ;-)

jerky zooms in & out, zooms to reframe. I don't know the amount of times I have shot something and think rather than stopping recording I'll just zoom & re frame it doesn't have to be useable it just gets me to another part of the lens. Then hold my shot 10 -30 secs & low & behold the editor has only gone & used the zoom !!! I hate it but then it spiced up the edit a bit & looked okay in the end. I remember a time when directors kept saying" make it like Hill street blues" Nightmare especially when you are shooting a cookery show!!

The Bebob Zoe controller transformed the interviews I shot on my XH A1 because I could zoom in and out so slowly that it was imperceptible to the ordinary viewer but it a) allowed me to adjust the framing to match the emotional intensity of what is being recorded b) cut between different framings in the edit without having to use a dissolve or B roll.
If I can so this with my 5Dmk2 I may begin to use it for interviews too.

I have my third live event under my belt where the 5D was my sole camera in use. All three times were under duress..... my main cam was down.

Here is where I have forced myself to examine the possibility of buying the tools to make the cam more capable at run and gun, hence the search for improved zoom control.

Fact is the portability, low light and amazing image as well as all of the other good stuff just makes it hard to go back to hauling my EX and all the related stuff that makes the bag super heavy.

For event shooters like me that makes a huge difference in how our lower backs feel around age 40 :)


David,

I agree. This ain't no broadcast cam.

But if I drove by a house on fire and had my camera with me, voila, it's a news cam. If I get the footage before the news truck can get there, I win. I don't even need 24p, though I sure would like audio gain control and monitoring for single system recording.

And it could be a good camera for sports background stories, a la NFL Films. Certainly, we won't see it live on Sunday afternoon.
\


Please correct me where needed. I'm not familiar with the 5D2 but I'm extremely familiar with broadcast run and gun. How can you reliably perform your job on a run and gun gig with the lack of audio controls, sub-par in camera audio (compared to video cams), smooth iris adjustments, zoom, quick toggling WB settings...

And I love double system audio but with no TC on the camera? I hope no one suggests we start slating shots for run and gun. From what I hear the 5D has enough issues to deal with without trying to make it a run and gun camera. There so much you can sacrifice for the sake of sensor size before your production steps too far back in time in workflow.

I would love a 5D2 designed for video.

Please correct me where needed. I'm not familiar with the 5D2 but I'm extremely familiar with broadcast run and gun. How can you reliably perform your job on a run and gun gig with the lack of audio controls, sub-par in camera audio (compared to video cams), smooth iris adjustments, zoom, quick toggling WB settings...

Certainly, the 5D2 isn't designed for run & gun. That doesn't mean that you can't use it that way. However, it requires workarounds and compromises. If you want shallow DOF on a budget, it could be worthwhile.

Regarding audio, get a juicedLink preamp and run Magic Lantern firmware. The audio quality is very good, and signal to noise is excellent. You get XLR inputs and volume knobs. You also get headphone monitoring with a custom cable and optional headphone amp.

6. Canon 5D Mark II Audio Exposed - Conclusions on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/5903379)

For smooth exposure control, get a variable ND filter. Zooms are manual only, so you can't use it as a smooth effect. You can't toggle WB settings. That would be a nice addition to Magic Lantern.

For a run 'n gun setup, you also need a shoulder rig, a follow focus, a loupe, and probably an IS zoom (for a continuous take news story). For an edited documentary with interviews, you might have time for primes.

Looking at Dan Chung's work, you can get excellent run 'n gun results with the 5D2, but you can't treat it like a normal broadcast camera. It's a higher risk, high payoff (shallow DOF for under $3k) proposition.

Thanks for doing those tests. The juicedlink sounds acceptable. Is the Magic Lantern/5D2 laying it down at 48Khz/16bit PCM? I'm just guessing here.

We already have a Zacuto shoulder mount, chrosziel FF but the Zacuto loupe I've seen looks like it'd come off too easy pit against the rigors of run n gun.

Unlike most my interest in 5D2 isn't DOF primarily. It's acquiring a selection of primes for under $5k and the image quality of a full frame 35mm sensor.

Is the Magic Lantern/5D2 laying it down at 48Khz/16bit PCM?

It's 44.1kHz, 16-bit uncompressed PCM stereo. Not audiophile by any stretch, but it's really 16-bit clean with the juicedLink up front. (As compared to some 24-bit recorders with 14-bit or worse signal to noise.)

The 7D apparently records at 48kHz. With 23.976/25/29.97/59.94, they got the rates right with that cam. :)