EX-3 + Letus + Matte box + maybe a nano down the road.

Looking at:

Sachtler | DV-12SB ENG Carbon Fiber Tripod System | 1263 | B&H (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/382500-REG/Sachtler_1263_DV_12SB_ENG_Carbon_Fiber.html)



Vinten | V8AS-CP2M Vision Pozi-Loc Carbon Fiber | V8AS-CP2M (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/615599-REG/Vinten_V8AS_CP2M_V8AS_CP2M_Vision_Pozi_Loc_Carbon.html)

27 pound capacity of the Vinten sufficient given what I may load it up with down the road?

Been watching Ebay but most of the Sachtler and Vintens that come up are floor speaders.

Any other reccomendations that could allow me to spend less while getting excellent quality? Is there any point to mix and matching heads to sticks to get my cost down?

Two extremely good systems.

Can't really comment on the Sachtler, as haven't played with one (yet), but the infinately variable counterbalance on the Vinten is incredible, as is the new snap load camera plate.

As you're obviously not short of a buck or three, may I suggest an upgrade to the Vinten rig which will blow anything on the map away?

A set of these under that 8 AS and you're gonna be loaded for bear:

Vinten | 3498-3 ENG/EFP 2-Stage Fibertec Tripod Legs | 34983 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/276287-REG/Vinten_34983_3498_3_ENG_EFP_2_Stage_Fibertec.html#specifications)

Don't forget it needs the Spread Loc mid level spreader (sold seperately) and there should be a Vinten bag designed specifically for 'em but can't locate it on B&H for some reason.

You've probabl already done so, but if not, check out my reviews of both the sticks and the Vinten 3 AS in the Articles section, above.

In my opinion, that V X AS/ FiberTec combo is THE best support system on the planet, but then, I'm biased, I have one!


CS

Kyle,

I have the Sachtler DV6 SB with the 75mm SL Carbon Fiber legs. I put a Canon XL H1A with a SmallHD 8.9" monitor and Sony CF recorder unit on it. Almost always have the larger batter so I have about as much weight on it as I could imagine. I love the head. The ability to adjust the counter balance and is great. Pans and tilts are very smooth. The knock I would have against my setup are the legs. for most applications they are good enough but on extreme zooms in winding conditions it would be nice if they were a tad stiffer. The system you're looking at has the legs with the 100mm bowl. I've played with one of those and it's a huge difference. I'm actually considering getting the adapter so I can get the 100mm legs and use my head on it.

I've used the Vinten Vision 6 (I think it was) and was really impressed with that too. I think bottom line is you won't be dissapointed with either one.

-Garrett

I don't think I will ever exceed approx 25 pounds. That being said how much of a margin do you guys recommend between rated capacity and actual load?

The higher the rated capacity of the sticks, the more rigid they are, hence why I suggested the FiberTec's over the Pozi - Loc's (92 lbs vs. 55lb) - those FiberTecs are really rigid.

When working out the counterbalance capacity of the head btw, remember that the quoted min/ max figures for the 8AS are at a COG of 125 mm (5 inches) from the top of the head.

The EX3 is a pretty low camera and the additions you mentioned won't add much "up top" either, so even with a full up kit weight of 27 lbs I don't think you will have run out of counterbalanc.

Conversly, because of the EX3's low COG, it will probably require a total kit weight in excess of the stated 12.1 lbs to get the counterbalance to kick in.


CS

I think you could save some money and get a more solid setup if you'd put a decent fluid head on heavy Gitzo sticks. Nothing really beats the Gitzo legs.

I think you could save some money and get a more solid setup if you'd put a decent fluid head on heavy Gitzo sticks. Nothing really beats the Gitzo legs.

Ya I was hoping to get my cost down while still ending up with a high quality setup. At this point I know I want either a Sachtler 12 or Vinten 8 head. I want a mid level speader and I don't see that Gitzo has that. Can you recommend any other legs to go with either the Sachtler or the Vinten?

If you go with sachtler, I would add the 500$ or so to get the speedlock legs, or at least consider it. 3 clamps for adjustment instead of 6 is a treat...and the legs are pretty stiff as well. My experience with Vinten are limited to Vision11 and 100 on fibertec legs so cant comment on the new AS heads, are waiting to demo the AS for my HPX500.

Bottom line you can't go much wrong with Sachtler or Vinten, both make good heads and legs.

Extra $700 for speed lock. Worth it?

Sachtler | DV-12SB ENG Carbon Fiber Tripod System | 1263 | B&H (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/382500-REG/Sachtler_1263_DV_12SB_ENG_Carbon_Fiber.html)

Sachtler | DV-12SB SL Carbon Fiber Tripod System | 1265 | B&H (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/382501-REG/Sachtler_1265_DV_12SB_SL_Carbon_Fiber.html)

Ouch, the difference seem to be a bit more than the quote i got from my supplier...

If you move a lot around, almost ENG style....it's saves some time in setup and it will be worth it as I see it. If on the other hand you don't move around that much or need cut seconds where you can the normal CF legs are very good to. The SL is not a must, got a bit carried away in how much I like using them...

Try to get a demo of the heads/legs you are in the market for, I find that personal preferences on how the head works and feel also should be taken into consideration when investing 5 grand in a tripod that's built to outlast at least 5 cameras.

YI want a mid level speader and I don't see that Gitzo has that. Can you recommend any other legs to go with either the Sachtler or the Vinten?
You do not need a spreader with Gitzo tripods. In fact, I have found the Gitzo tripods more resistant to torsion (meaning they don't twist) than the other tripods (including Sachtler, etc., except maybe for the the monster Vinten Chris has and reviewed on DvInfo.net). (On the Gitzos the "spreader" is built into the top as step locks.)

The Gitzo tripods are different, and they should be looked at before buying. For your needs I suggest a Gitzo Series 5:
Gitzo SA | le choix des professionels (http://www.gitzo.com/Jahia/site/gitzo/pid/4765/cache/bypass?actualPathCategoryKey=1CAT:AAA1:2CAT:BB59:3CAT:CC49:4CAT:D297&curMarketId=MARKET:MKT2&curBrandId=BGI&kindOfProductCollectionRequest=productList&isCleanList=true)

These tripods have interchangeable head attachments (flat, 75mm, 100mm) that can be bought separately. The Gitzo tripods are very, very rigid, and very, very lightweight compared to others.

Here is the Gitzo GT5531S (max. height 52.4") at B&H for $849.95 with a $40 rebate available:
GT5531S | B&H Photo Video (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?ci=0&shs=GT5531S&sb=ps&pn=1&sq=desc&InitialSearch=yes&O=jsp%2FRootPage.jsp&A=search&Q=*&bhs=t&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=submit)

Here is the Gitzo GT5541LS (max height 60.2") at B&H for $949.95 with a $40 rebate available:
Gitzo | GT5541LS Systematic 6X Carbon Fiber Tripod | GT5541LS (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/569168-REG/Gitzo_GT5541LS_GT5541LS_Systematic_6X_Carbon.html#specifications)

Since both of these come standard with the flat top, the bowl adapter needs to be purchased separtely.
75mm:
Gitzo | GS5320V75 75mm Bowl Adapter | GS5320V75 | B&H Photo Video (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/569199-REG/Gitzo_GS5320V75_GS5320V75_75mm_Bowl_Adapter.html)
100mm:
Gitzo | GS5320V100 Bowl Interface 100mm | GS5320V100 | B&H Photo (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/569204-REG/Gitzo_GS5320V100_GS5320V100_Bowl_Interface_100mm.html)

The Gitzo legs are nice also because they go very low, giving you either a baby tripod or a hi-hat in the field. (To go the lowest, you need a head hut with a short extension)

The Gitzo legs take longer to setup since each section has to be done separately. This is were the Sacthtler speedlock is nice, when the weight is not important, but you have many quick setups.

Realizing that the Gitzo legs are a different type than the standard video tripod, the Gitzos cannot be beat for rigidity, adaptability and weight.

If you want cushiony sides, there are leg protectors available separately (but to me are annoying):
LensCoat | LegCoat Tripod Leg Protectors | LCG5540LSSN | B&H (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/490547-REG/LensCoat_LCG5540LSSN_LegCoat_Tripod_Leg_Protectors.html)

For lighter weight cameras than you are talking about, the Gitzo Series 3 (load capacity 39.7 lbs.) is the standard leg (and the standard height version comes with a 75mm bowl adapter):
Gitzo | GT3531LSV Systematic 6X Carbon Fiber Tripod | GT3531LSV (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/548419-REG/Gitzo_GT3531LSV_GT3531LSV_Systematic_6X_Carbon.html)

Personally, I've found that the big advantage of a spreader isn't stability, but the ability to quickly lift the tripod from the middle of the spreader, collapsing the legs evenly. Also, the legs spread evenly when you prepare to set it down. This makes moving a tripod from spot to spot very quick. With a bowl/ball, you can level the camera and start shooting right away.

You mention that the Gitzo has a spreader function built into the top of the tripod, but I wonder if it provides quick-move functionality, or just leg locking.

I recently took a large tripod without a spreader, a shoulder rig, and prime lenses to a racetrack, and I was amazed at how long it took me to reconfigure from tripod (long lens) to shoulder (wide lens) and back, and what a hassle it was to move the tripod around. A mid-level spreader wouldn't have solved everything by any means, but it's a simple and important piece of the agile cameraman puzzle.

Granted, the Gitzo take longer to set up and break down because, as you said, you can't use the spreader. However, the Gitzo are ROCK SOLID (more so than any other video tripod with spreader that I have seen) and have the option to chose different opening angles for each leg in uneven terrain, which is very useful.

To be honest, since I got a tripod with spreader (Sachtler), I am getting lazy and do exactly what you do: I can use one hand to put the tripod on the ground, and push the spreader down with my foot -- done. This takes about 5 sec. However, it is so tempting to only use one hand that I sometimes have the camcorder in the other, which has created very dangerous situations! Always use TWO hands to set up your equipment.

Keep in mind: tripods only use spreaders if they are not rigid enough. It is an add-on to compensate for lack of stability. A spreader is not a feature -- it is a bug-fix. The Gitzos don't need a spreader.

I'm trying to find a way to avoid spending 5500 to 6k for a tripod system. I understand why I need to spend for a decent head. I'm a little confused about why I need to spend so much for legs. I would think the only measure that matters with legs would be load capacity, rigidity and maybe ease of setup.

I'm trying to understand why I would want to with this:

Sachtler | CF-100ENG 2CF Carbon Fiber Tripod Legs | 5386 | B&H (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/78760-REG/Sachtler_5386_CF_100ENG_2CF_Carbon_Fiber.html)

instead of this

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/433303-REG/Cartoni_A627_A627_Ultra_light_2_Stg_Aluminum.html

Keep in mind: tripods only use spreaders if they are not rigid enough. It is an add-on to compensate for lack of stability. A spreader is not a feature -- it is a bug-fix.

I disagree that it's not a feature (though it might be a bug fix for some cheap sticks.) A mid-level spreader offers the benefit of quick setup. For shooting news, I'd say that this is a "must-have" feature.

It sounds like you have a low-level spreader, if you're using your foot. That's not as "handy" ;) as a mid-level one. It's also not useful on rugged terrain.

I've got a Bogen 3193 (350MVB). It's heavy and solid (100mm bowl, only two sections; two tubes per section) and doesn't include a spreader as a standard feature. I'm planning to buy a mid-level spreader, but not for added stability (the sticks are overkill for my 5D MkII). I would buy it solely for the benefit of quick setup and collapse.

I'm trying to understand why I would want to with this:

Sachtler | CF-100ENG 2CF Carbon Fiber Tripod Legs | 5386 | B&H (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/78760-REG/Sachtler_5386_CF_100ENG_2CF_Carbon_Fiber.html)

instead of this

Cartoni | A627 Ultra-light 2-Stg Aluminum Tripod | A627 | B&H (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/433303-REG/Cartoni_A627_A627_Ultra_light_2_Stg_Aluminum.html)

That particular Cartoni is likely to twist like a hula hoop when you pan with a heavy camera and moderate drag. It will then kick back when you stop the pan. Why? It has the double curse of three sections - and single tubes on two of them. The bottom tube looks pretty skinny. For an aluminum tripod, see if you can get two tubes per section within your budget. A two section tripod is more stable than a three section tripod, but won't go as low.

The Sachtler is carbon fiber. Even though it has two tubes on two sections and the tubes are larger, it's lighter than the Cartoni. Shop for carbon fiber only if it light weight is important to you. If you're only using it within a couple hundred feet from your car, go with aluminum, but get double tubes if at all possible.

I've got this, and it's quite stout, but it weighs more than twice the Sachtler's weight, has half the load rating, and doesn't go nearly as low: Manfrotto by Bogen Imaging | 350MVB Professional Tripod | 350MVB (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/553946-REG/Manfrotto_by_Bogen_Imaging_350MVB_350MVB_Professional_Tripod_Legs.html#specifications)

I simply cannot let this pass:

Keep in mind: tripods only use spreaders if they are not rigid enough. It is an add-on to compensate for lack of stability. A spreader is not a feature -- it is a bug-fix.

The above statement is absolutely incorrect and shows an almost total misunderstanding of the physics involved in tripod design and the engineering required to overcome what are inherant shortcomings in any three legged device (that you want to be able to carry without a fork lift truck).

The most obvious reason for having a spreader is to stop the legs from doing the splits in the event one or more feet cannot get a grip. Every tripod I have ever seen that is designed for a spreader will splay the legs 90 degrees to the receiver and go flat to the ground if left to their own devices.

It is possible to get around this by putting locks at the hinge points in the receiver, however, this creates it's own problems. Due to the length of the lever created by a fully extended tripod leg, the strength of the lock required is massive, to prevent it being sheared off under load, especially at high splay angles. Additionally, the slightest amount of play in such locks reveals itself as play in the hinge mechanism and the entire tripod waving about like a drunken sailor. In order to overcome this problem extraordinary machining tolerances are required, pushing the price up. Continued use of even the best machined locks will create wear, which will, ultimately, render the tripod unusable.

It is also exceedingly difficult to machine in enough lock stops to let any leg assume almost any angle, required when shooting on rough ground, thus limiting versatility.

Spreadered tripods do not suffer from these problems, the "centre to leg" section on each spreader usually being infinately variable or has dozens of teeth machined in to allow almost infinate adjustment. Interestingly, the spreader only performs this "anti splits" function as an extremely useful side show to the main event.

The standard twin tube tripod leg is designed to emulate a box girder, they just omit the sheet of steel joining the two tubes together. This gives such a leg design an extremely high resistance to warping in a lateral direction and thus extremely good rotational rigidity and low "wind up".

Where they are vulnerable, however, is to forces applied trying to push the leg inwards towards the closed position. Such a force, applied to one leg, will indeed cause the leg to deform inwards, thus shortening it, thus causing the receiver to dip down in the direction of the effected leg, thus causing the camera to buck in response (this is very visible in the footage.

Most spreader designs positively lock the centre point of all three legs together, so that a force applied to one leg is transmitted to the other two, multiplying the effective in/ out rigidity by a considerable factor, resisting a single leg warp and turning a kneed leg from a head buck event to an attempted "push the tripod off all three feet at once" event, which will be a forward/ backward move of the camera, which, if visible at all, will be minute in comparison to the head warp.

But wait - it gets better!

A locked centre spreader actually increases lateral/ rotational rigidity as well, making a spreadered tripod inherantly stronger than a head lock tripod.

So, now that we've proved that the design engineers at the best support manufacturers on the planet aren't a complete load of utter morons, I'll leave you guys to get on with the show.


CS

I suppose I could try to become an expert on tripod design before I make my choice or just play it safe and go with one of these:

Sachtler | DV-12SB ENG Carbon Fiber Tripod System | 1263 | B&H (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/382500-REG/Sachtler_1263_DV_12SB_ENG_Carbon_Fiber.html)

or

Sachtler | DV-12SB SL Carbon Fiber Tripod System | 1265 | B&H (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/382501-REG/Sachtler_1265_DV_12SB_SL_Carbon_Fiber.html)

Keep in mind: tripods only use spreaders if they are not rigid enough. It is an add-on to compensate for lack of stability. A spreader is not a feature -- it is a bug-fix. The Gitzos don't need a spreader.

I don't know if I can agree with this statement either.

First of all a spreader is a handy thing for quick setup and breakdown.

Second of all, a tripod can never be too rigid. Every tripod, and I mean every one of them flex to a certain extent. Anything that can be done to lower the flex is welcome especially if it adds little weight and expense.

The Sachtler is carbon fiber. Even though it has two tubes on two sections and the tubes are larger, it's lighter than the Cartoni. Shop for carbon fiber only if it light weight is important to you. If you're only using it within a couple hundred feet from your car, go with aluminum, but get double tubes if at all possible.

You save about 500grams going for carbon legs, but in my opinion the CF ones are a tad stiffer then the alu ones. Used both Alu and CF legs with video18plus head recently.

If budget allows for either Sachtler or Vinten, I would not even consider Cartoni.

Looks like I'm going with either:

Sachtler | DV-12SB ENG Carbon Fiber Tripod System | 1263 | B&H (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/382500-REG/Sachtler_1263_DV_12SB_ENG_Carbon_Fiber.html)

or

Sachtler | DV-12SB SL Carbon Fiber Tripod System | 1265 | B&H (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/382501-REG/Sachtler_1265_DV_12SB_SL_Carbon_Fiber.html)

For the Sachtler owners: Are there are downsides with the speed-lock legs verses the non speed-lock legs? Other than the extra $700 is there any reason not to go with speed-lock legs?

If you don't mind 10 or 20 seconds more "fiddle time" when you are setting up, then save that $700!

However, if money is no object, and/or very set-up time is important, then the Speedlocks are brilliant, the fast set-up is just so neat, and avoids you having to scramble around on the ground extending the second stage. Undo the three waist-height catches, lift the head to the desired height, the legs extend by themselves, then re-do the three catches, all without bending over too far.

No downside to the Speedlocks other than the extra $$$.

I just love 'em.

Answer is simple.
Miller.


Ben

If you don't mind 10 or 20 seconds more "fiddle time" when you are setting up, then save that $700!

However, if money is no object, and/or very set-up time is important, then the Speedlocks are brilliant, the fast set-up is just so neat, and avoids you having to scramble around on the ground extending the second stage. Undo the three waist-height catches, lift the head to the desired height, the legs extend by themselves, then re-do the three catches, all without bending over too far.

No downside to the Speedlocks other than the extra $$$.

I just love 'em.

With the speed lock can I adjust both stages independant of each other or is the the design such that when I extend or retract they both move the same amount? I just want to make sure I'm not losing anything by being unable to independantly set each stage of extension like I can with the non-speed lock 2 stage Sachtlers. IE I may wish to increase stability by minimizing the amount of the second stage extension due to the fact that it is a single tube.

Kyle,

It's jind of hard to explain (at least for me!). On my Sachtler Speedlock 75 CF legs, the top stage is two-tube and the lower two are both single tube, obviously with the botom stage smaller than the middle stage.

You can see in the photo here: Sachtler | 4588 Speed Lock 75 CF Tripod w/ 75mm Bowl | 4588 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&sku=412239&Q=&is=REG&A=details)

The legs just fall to the required height when you undo the levers. With the lever undone, you can manually slide the stages around if you wish, quite easily. Normally (for me, anyway) the middle stage extends first, i.e. the bigger tubes, and the small final stage extends last, but that could just be fluke!

Kyle,

It's jind of hard to explain (at least for me!). On my Sachtler Speedlock 75 CF legs, the top stage is two-tube and the lower two are both single tube, obviously with the botom stage smaller than the middle stage.

You can see in the photo here: Sachtler | 4588 Speed Lock 75 CF Tripod w/ 75mm Bowl | 4588 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&sku=412239&Q=&is=REG&A=details)

The legs just fall to the required height when you undo the levers. With the lever undone, you can manually slide the stages around if you wish, quite easily. Normally (for me, anyway) the middle stage extends first, i.e. the bigger tubes, and the small final stage extends last, but that could just be fluke!



Thanks Mike,

so you are saying that if I wanted to extend the first stage and not the second stage or vice versa I could do that?

Thanks Mike,

so you are saying that if I wanted to extend the first stage and not the second stage or vice versa I could do that?

Exactly. It might take a very small amount of manual sliding if you are super fussy about which stage you want, but nothing that would cause any real trouble. WIth the speedlock clamps it's still a work of seconds.

Exactly. It might take a very small amount of manual sliding if you are super fussy about which stage you want, but nothing that would cause any real trouble. WIth the speedlock clamps it's still a work of seconds.

Thanks Mike,

Looks like I'm gonna go with speedlocks then.