where to find detailed clip info - like shutter speed, gain setting etc.

Not 100% sure, but I don't think the EX does this. If you open an MXF in XDCAM Viewer and check metadata, it's not there...

no, the important data is not there only useless time code; unbelievable!

According to the EX engineers who I met with in Japan, the metadata information is already being saved. You just can't read it yet. Perhaps that will be changing soon . . .

no, the important data is not there only useless time code; unbelievable!

Name me any camera under US$10k where you can do this currently. How about under $20k (other than a RED). Under $30k?

I'm not quite sure what makes it so unbelievable. This was IMPOSSIBLE on tape, and it's still why camera logs are written down for film.

If the data is being saved, then good on Sony. But dang people, get your expectations in line. The EX1 is not a Viper, and it's not a Genesis or Dalsa either.

Perrone,

I undersand what you are saying. A lot of people have unrealistic expectations about all kinds of things they expect cameras to do. But just look at all the metadata that even the cheapest $600 D-SLR provides. There's no reason an $8000 EX3 shouldn't be providing that same level of detail. It's just a bunch of ones and zeros.

and here is surprise for you .... the same company - Sony did it on their HDR-XR500V $900 model. I can see gain, shutter, whithe balance setting...
so I'd expect the same from $6K+ camera; it is not a rocket science
btw-
I have this camera (HDR-XR500V ) and it is BETTER low light thank Z5U and Z7U due to new ExmorR sensor - just amazing what just one year in technology can do ;-)
see it here Sony HDR-XR500V low light test By Marius Boruch On ExposureRoom (http://exposureroom.com/members/MarioB.aspx/assets/fe2588e8b8ec4bca8b78e74480eb16ee/)
all shots hand held

Perrone,

I undersand what you are saying. A lot of people have unrealistic expectations about all kinds of things they expect cameras to do. But just look at all the metadata that even the cheapest $600 D-SLR provides. There's no reason an $8000 EX3 shouldn't be providing that same level of detail. It's just a bunch of ones and zeros.

Doug,

I know, but DANG. People have been making film for 100 years without it. That is why you hired a Camera Asst. DSLRs do stuff $8k viddeo cams can't. And video cams do stuff DSLRs cant. I used to hear the complaints when I was shooting film (still) from the new DSLR guys. Why the motor drive was ONLY 3.5 frames per second, and how they couldn't get stuff done. And I was thinking back how I started shooting football on a RANGEFINDER Anscomat with Pan-X and getting that work printed.

If Shutter speed and iris info is important to you, PLAN THE SHOT AND WRITE IT DOWN. Yes, hopefully soon we'll have that stuff available in all digital cameras. But I'd be a heck of a lot happier if Sony busied themselves figuring out how to cure skew issues than getting me info I should know before I hit the record button.

Sorry to be irritable. I am just sitting here marveling at how I can lock 3 cameras together in my NLE with separate audio (with that useless timecode) and it's frustrating when everyone just wants everything automatically. No one wants to bother to put in the work any more. I want to light a feature with 3 lights and $1k budget. I want a camera that shoots in the dark has all day storage for $100. I want to cut native hyper-compressed footage in my NLE and I want clean playback at 60fps. And I only want to spend $800.

Best thing I ever did for my photography was to buy a bulb release. I wish we had the equivalent on these new video cameras.

It's not fair to compare HD video to film. How many menu settings and other variables are there on a typical film camera?

I'm not saying I'd want, or need, to see the data on every shot, but once in awhile it would be nice. And "once in a while" is likely to occur to me long after I gave any thought to writing down my settings. And how am I going to write down dozens of settings that might be changing 30 times per second?

Think of what a great resource the metadata would be for novices and students. Can you imagine how great it would be for the student and/or instructor to actually look at what the camea was doing at any given time? That is powerful.

And what about when it comes to grading footage in post? Wouldn't it be useful to see the camera settings that were used, when and/or if they changed, and how they may have differed from other cameras on the same shoot?

I'm sure Sony has enough talented engineers on staff that any effort spent pefecting the metadata won't make any difference in the other issues you'd like to see addressed.

This thread woudn't have been started by Marius if there wasn't a desire to see the metadata.

This thread woudn't have been started by Marius if there wasn't a desire to see the metadata.

Again, don't get me wrong. I've made comments here as well about the desire to have metadata. And to have access to things I thing would be infinitely more useful while operating the camera like a shade mask based on your chosen aspect ratio. The "Guides" are a good start but having a mask lay over what is in or out of 4:3, 2.40, 1.85, would be incredibly helpful. Overscan would be nice so that we could see definitively what is IN and what is OUT would be HUGELY helpful for anyone trying to actually compose their frames, and especially to those who are shooting on sets, or using booms or other hanging gear.

Yes, I can imagine the power of metadata. And there are certainly times when it would be useful. Run and gun situations, or solo shooter situations come to mind. I am often solo shooter on my projects and I don't always "remember" what settings I used, but I do tend to try to stick to simple settings. I decide in advance what my frame-rate will be. If it's narrative work, I am metering my scenes to determine my dynamic range and aperature. And then I don't change them unless I am on auto-iris (on the stabilizer). My shutter speeds may change, but typically my shutter angles don't, so I don't tend to write that down.

Again, this mini-rant is not against having the meta-data. But more against the idea that it is somehow an insult that it's not there. Five years ago, none of us even KNEW we could have the metadata. Three years ago, RED showed it was possible to have that and a lot more in an "inexpensive" camera. I would suspect that was about the time the EX1 was being developed. The idea that a $7k camera would have the same metadata as a $40k camera package probably didn't occur to the cinealta folks. Heck the F900 didn't have it, why put it on a handycam? The fact that there might have been the foresight to embed it in the stream is BRILLIANT. And if they turn it on, I'll certainly be happy. Unless it coincides with not having SDHC access.. then I'll go back to camera reports!

Anyway, rant over. I was just releasing some steam. Gotta get this rough cut done tonight before I bring in the a-cam footage tomorrow..

But more against the idea that it is somehow an insult that it's not there.

On that, we can agree 100%. Good luck with the edit.

Sorry for this very basic question.

I have been looking through the manual and doing other searches but can't find the information on what shutter speed is used when the front shutter switch is set to "Off".

I have kept this set to Off for most of my work, but shot a sequence last week (handheld) using 25p and it looked awful. I now use a shutter speed of 1/50 or 180' or higher and the shots look better.

what shutter speed is used when the front shutter switch is set to "Off".

When the shutter switch is OFF, the shutter speed matches the frame rate. For example, 30P is 1/30, 24P is 1/24, etc.

Thank you Doug, I thought this was the case, although I couldn't find this information in the manual. Certainly my handheld footage confirms this as well.

Back to school for me. :-(

I brought this up in another thread but as it's being discussed here I try again. I am a vortex dvd worshipper and am working in PAL land shooting 25P 50. The combo is giving me lousy results with even the slowest of follow pans. What might be the issues here if I went up to 30P and what shutter speed?

Hi David,

It's tough to say what is going on with your footage because 1/50th is certainly the recommended setting for 25P. Are you sure the shutter switch under the lens is actually turned on? Are you shooting with an f-stop of f/5.6 or larger?

I'll admit that I never have any reason to shoot 25P, but on the rare occassions when I shoot 24P I use 1/48th and I've been completely happy with the results. And I always use 1/60th for 30P.

How are you viewing your footage (clips), if using the XDCAM EX browser then that can look juddery. Depending on your NLE, the clips can also lose their smoothness until rendered.

I learnt the hard way that shutter Off means a full 1/25 sec for 25fps. I did discover through shooting several clips that doubling the shutter speed over the frame rate produces a better result. Shoot several clips at different settings and say out aloud which settings are being used. When you play back the clips you will hear yourself confirming the settings used.

I know that recent posts are way off topic and I am very sorry to add to that (sorry Marius) but my 25p is rubbish. Each and every time. Setting the shutter to 1/50th only cuts down on light levels and does not help my cause at all......Sorry.

Post some footage. Let's see it.

There's always 50i ;-)

I know that recent posts are way off topic and I am very sorry to add to that (sorry Marius) but my 25p is rubbish. Each and every time. Setting the shutter to 1/50th only cuts down on light levels and does not help my cause at all......Sorry.

You havn't given us any information on what aspect of your clips are rubish. Maybe some sample footage would help, or tell us exactly what the problem is .

Shooting 25P frame speed on at 50. Never had a problem with my xl-2 with these settings. My screening so far has been on my mac book pro set to view fit to screen. Workflow: shotputting the card on to an external drive and xdcam transferring the clips on to a separate drive for viewing and fcp work. I am now hoping the judder is screening related. Question - how to screen to tell, afterall at some point this footage is for screening on a regular telly via broadcast or off a dvd? I shall post some online footage as soon as I have a moment, but that is always an iffy situation (finding that elusive moment, that is)

Shooting 25P frame speed on at 50. Never had a problem with my xl-2 with these settings. My screening so far has been on my mac book pro set to view fit to screen. Workflow: shotputting the card on to an external drive and xdcam transferring the clips on to a separate drive for viewing and fcp work. I am now hoping the judder is screening related. Question - how to screen to tell, afterall at some point this footage is for screening on a regular telly via broadcast or off a dvd?

My workflow involves writing individual chapters on a project to DVD and viewing it on an LCD TV (Sony Bravia and Samsung), I may write several discs at differet settings until the quality looks right. I never judge the motion in my NLE (Premiere) or via Sony clipbrowser as this may not always produce the smoothest results. I suspect that your Mac Book may be the problem, besides running the OS and other tasks, expecting it to give a smooth video performance with HD is a very tall order. This is not intended to be a knock for Apple Mac, my Windows system has just as many, if not more, problems.

There really needs to be a sticky on this subject as it comes around again and again.

Never, never, never judge the motion of footage using a computer screen. Most computer screens are running at 60Hz or higher. They are progressive displays so do not handle interlace well and if you have shot at 24P, 25P or 30P there has to be some kind of interpolating of the frame rate going on in order to display the footage. This can manifest itself in many ways depending on how the computer is converting your footage. It may be picture tearing, stuttering, jumping, skipping or judder. Very few computer displays are optimised for video playback. You can ever be sure that what you are seeing is what you shot using a basic computer display setup.

A better way to judge the motion is simply to use the SD composite output into a conventional monitor. While it may only be SD and might not be the best quality image, at least the motion should be correct. Most HD LCD TV's have a component input, this is going to be better for judging motion than a computer screen.

The majority of computer screens are simply not designed for moving images.