View Full Version : I heard this about DVD's....


Alessandro Machi
May 1st, 2004, 09:37 PM
Hollywood DVD's are actually pressed (from a glass master) and that the combination of their being pressed AND having aluminium in them makes them more reliable then any other method.

Nick Jushchyshyn
May 1st, 2004, 11:46 PM
Also, this production method is rediculously faster that burning DVD's.

Think about it.
Less than as second to stamp out the entire disc on a press rather than writting out the data!

Most larger DVD runs are done this way. Hollwood or not. It's just faster, cheaper and also allows for reliable use of most copyprotection mechanisms. (Macrovision, for example, really doesn't work well on recordable media.)

One of my own DVD productions was duplicated this way for a 5000 disc run. Only 65 cents per disc, including a 3 color graphic painted directly onto the DVD.

Have fun.

Luis Caffesse
May 2nd, 2004, 01:25 AM
I'm only bringing this up because it is the topic of the thread...
(not trying to be picky)

'Duplication' is the term used for burning DVDs.
'Replication" is the term used for pressing DVDs from a glass master.

Alessandro Machi
May 2nd, 2004, 02:40 AM
The Replication versus Duplication terminology is a good point to bring up.

Rob Lohman
May 3rd, 2004, 10:20 AM
They are definitely more reliable.

Casey Visco
May 3rd, 2004, 10:31 AM
If you're doing anything intend for public distribution or a wide audience, having the discs manufactured or pressed is the way to go, as this ensures everyone can read it. Call me archaic but I still don't have a DVD player that can play DVD-R's, so I've thrown away A LOT of discs from people and companies that send those out.

Alessandro Machi
May 3rd, 2004, 10:38 AM
The entire DVD industry has flourished because of "pressed"/replicated technology.

DVD duplication is about to completely wipe out the VHS industry even though DVD "Duplication" (not replication) is nowhere near as reliable as VHS.

The DVD industry has not clearly defined and named the difference between Pressed DVD's and Duplicated DVD's the way that JVC created and maintained the "VHS" trademark.

Peter Moore
May 3rd, 2004, 12:37 PM
Sorry, but, this is news to people? :)

Casey Visco
May 3rd, 2004, 12:52 PM
Hah, evidently. I've been having DVDs pressed for quite some time for various projects I've worked on, but I understood the process long before DVD Burners ever hit the mainstream. A lot of people arent aware of the manufacturing processes behind things like this, so I'm not surprised.

Alessandro Machi
May 3rd, 2004, 02:43 PM
<<<-- Originally posted by Peter Moore : Sorry, but, this is news to people? :) -->>>

Which people are you refering to? You expect your customers to know the difference?

Peter Moore
May 3rd, 2004, 03:24 PM
I figured after the CD-R revolution everyone realized that the silver stuff you buy in packages is different from the technicolor discs you burn with your computer, for DVDs or CDs.

Alessandro Machi
May 3rd, 2004, 03:46 PM
I get phone calls, at least a couple a week where people who have DV, CD, or DVD, ALL call it DVD.

The customers will say things like "I have a DVD tape", "I have a DVD CD..."

Jake Russell
May 4th, 2004, 06:26 AM
<<<-- Originally posted by Alessandro Machi : The DVD industry has not clearly defined and named the difference between Pressed DVD's and Duplicated DVD's... -->>>

Yes it has there are two spec's.

<<<-- Originally posted by Alessandro Machi : You expect your customers to know the difference? -->>>

No but authors should! then there won't be a problem right. I'm educating customers every day!

This has been covered on the board before a few times as you'd expect:

<<<-- Originally posted by Jake Russell :Ok dont say I didn't try and help you or someone else. If you replicate a disc it is totally different to duplicating it.

A replication facility will use the DLT to cut a glass master and make stamping masters.(Some replicators first verify the DLT formatting and check for spec compliance) The replicator will send you check discs made from the master, some may charge for this. Once you approve the check disc then they will carry on with the run.

Duplication is basically writing the info to disc like from a home burner as oppose to stamping. You can get duplication towers that can write several discs at once. But will have all the downsides of recordable media as you would expect.

Replication has many advantages over recordable media which I wont go into now, maybe others will. But if you replicate from DLT you can get away with higher bitrates, get higher compatibility and can have things like copy protection on the disc.

There is quite a bit to this topic but I hope things are a touch clearer, dvdland has it's own dictionary I'll find a link,

Jake -->>>

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13481

Also pretty much all 'hollywood' dvd's are dvd-9's, pressed from DLTs and authored in spec based apps.

Jake

Nick Jushchyshyn
May 4th, 2004, 08:36 AM
The authoring to DLT part used to be a significant fence to jump when deciding to use duplication vs replication just from the stand point of having software capable of creating the tape.

Now, Adobe Encore and Ulead DVD Worshop can author DVD-9 directly to DLT (maybe the new Vegas+DVDA can too ??) the technical obsticals to using replication are not nearly as costly to overcome.

There's still run-setup charges to contend with. What is it these days ? $250-$350 to go through the setup (3-color graphic, glass master, check disc, etc.) for a typical run? That may be tough to swallow for very small runs, I'm thinking the economics of replication start to beat out duplication before you even get to qty's of 1000. (maybe even 750?) And that's not even factoring in the benifits of compatability and reliability you get with replication.

Everything I've done to date has been either a big replication run or just one-offs, so I have no idea what it costs to do a duplication run of a few hundred discs. What are service providers charging for duplication these days ?? Or what are the equiment costs of duplicator/printer's now??

Anyway, just some more random thoughts.
Have fun.

Alessandro Machi
May 4th, 2004, 10:06 AM
<<<-- Originally posted by Jake Russell : <<<-- Originally posted by Alessandro Machi : The DVD industry has not clearly defined and named the difference between Pressed DVD's and Duplicated DVD's... -->>>

Yes it has there are two spec's.
Jake -->>>

My point is that the consumer is completely clueless to this fact yet the consumer has been led to believe that VHS is completely worthless.

<<<-- Originally posted by Alessandro Machi : You expect your customers to know the difference? -->>>

No but authors should! then there won't be a problem right. I'm educating customers every day!

Jake -->>>

I am too, but it can become draining after a while.

Jake Russell
May 4th, 2004, 10:24 AM
Yeah I feel your pain. I'm lucky as I don't have to explain that they don't have a dvd tape. :-) that's a good one.

Na I think it's pretty widely available info. Even all the reports on the news(UK) mentioned it when dvd recorders hit the street. If the info doesn't stick then it doesn't...

I think that it depends who you're talking about as far as consumers goes. The folks that pop to the store and buy Matrix really don't have to worry much! It has a lot more to offer than VHS but how many people still don't use the VHS player to the max! Even if users don't use the dvd player they can still access a lot of extra content and features.

The problem I guess is that dvd and desktop video is cheaper and more readily available now. This means that people who don't know what they are doing are doing! I mean how many 'dvd authors' haven't read dvd demystified and the app manual. No nothing about the dvd spec. No nothing about compression. No nothing about the different dvd standards and so on!

Jake

Peter Moore
May 4th, 2004, 11:19 AM
VHS is worthless for anything but random access TV recording.

DVD-Rs, while they do have some compatibility issues (which are almost non-existant with newer players), are still the best consumer-grade recordable media available. They beat the pants off of anything magnetic, and have longer lifespans than CD-Rs.

Jake, I did not know bitrate restrictions would be any different between DVD-Rs and replicated DVDs. Why would that be?

Alessandro Machi
May 4th, 2004, 11:23 AM
Duplication houses that are asked to make a "couple of dvd's" by their customers have then hear about how "the DVD copy played in these two computers but not the third computer", or "the DVD copy played on the computer and one DVD machine but not the older DVD machine", or "the DVD copy played but dropped sound or picture every now and then"....

I hear JVC just came out with a VHS/Super-VHS to DVD all in one unit. Finally, one of the big companies will get to hear the complaining that the rest of use hear from time to time. I'm not doing DVD duplicating yet but I hear and see the pitfalls from others who offer the service.

And the last two BetaCam SP Edit masters that I had DVDs made from had flaws on both DVD's that would have never happened on a straight VHS copy.

Dan Euritt
May 4th, 2004, 12:26 PM
there seems to be a bit of fud-mongering on dvd-r in this thread? or have i mis-interpreted what's been said.

i have personally sold well over 500 dvd-r's here in the u.s. and abroad, with zero returns... i created every disc in-house, everything from shooting to editing to compressing to authoring to burning, including designing and printing the covers... we are talking about multiple projects here, not just one authored dvd.

i've seen at least one person claim to have had the same xlnt results with over 1,000 dvd-r's that he created and sold.

i have outlined what works for me in at least one other thread on this forum, if your results differ it's probably because you are cutting corners, or not fully adhering to the dvd spec... yes, there may be issues with dvd players sold before 2000, but when they cost only $40 each, most people will have multiple players, including game players that work great for dvd-r's.

most of the discs i've sold were done at vbr peak rates that exceeded 9 Mb/s, so there are no bitrate advantages with replicated vs. duplicated dvd's... afaik, there is only one dvd-legal spec for dvd players, and it does not differentiate between replicated vs. duplicated dvd's(??).

Alessandro Machi
May 4th, 2004, 12:31 PM
There are several things aspects to DVD duplication to consider. A duplicator who is asked to make straight copy DVD's from existing video content will use a DVD-Recorder and make a straight across DVD copy. These DVD record machines appear to have at best a 75-80% success rate.

Dan, congratulations on your success making DVD's. I believe there are some people out there that have a very high success rate making their own DVD's, it's just that not every project is "worthy" of loading into a computer when the client doesn't want to spend that much to make a straight DVD copy from existing material.

Peter Moore
May 4th, 2004, 02:21 PM
I've never had a single problem with DVD-R. Granted I haven't done hundreds or even thousands, so this is just annecdotal. I have, however, had lots of problems with DVD+R.

Maybe it depends on the media. I think duplication houses do cut corners sometimes. I've seen duplicators actually put labels on DVDs and, while they're centered well, this is still a huge no-no. So dropouts like that are not necessarily related to the fact that DVD is a DVD-R.

Now, that is not to say there is not a difference. Clearly there is - manufactured DVDs have much better reflectivity than DVD-Rs. DVD-Rs are basically an imitation of a real DVD. They try to make the laser bend exactly the same way, but they're not perfect all the time. Hence some players can see them and some can't. But I think every player bought in the last couple of years will have absolutely no problem with a quality DVD-R assuming everything else (authored to be compliant, no labels, etc.) is optimal.

Jake Russell
May 4th, 2004, 07:31 PM
<<<-- Originally posted by Dan Euritt : most of the discs i've sold were done at vbr peak rates that exceeded 9 Mb/s, so there are no bitrate advantages with replicated vs. duplicated dvd's... afaik, there is only one dvd-legal spec for dvd players, and it does not differentiate between replicated vs. duplicated dvd's(??). -->>>

Oh my gosh! for you maybe but that just isn't true my friend for thousands of others. WOW. I must of saved more people than you've got discs 10 times over atleast by telling them to encode their audio to AC-3. Bing, oh the disc works now! Keep the avg. down. Bing no video break-up! Along with many other things that it helps artifacts, audio dropouts etc.

There are many many things that can cause problems with recordable media. There are many many people out there(in the UK anyway) that don't have 3 or 4 players! even if they are $40 in the US.

500 sold for one person can be totally different for someone else(even with replicated discs)! Just cause you didn't hear doesn't mean all was ok! But that said it may be that it was. I know people that have sold over 5000 ħr discs and never had a problem but I also know people that sold about 80 and gave up on dvd. I have discs here that are basically exactly the same except the bitrate and as soon as the max gets to 7.2 Mbps+ you can hear the laser starting to struggle. Anyway to say that there are no bitrate advantages with replicated vs. duplicated dvd's is just crazy to me. I really wish we could all just go ahead and use 10.08 CBR give or take fitting content on the disc but that's just not real!

Ok ok a dvd-r is a dvd-r not a dvd-video. The Forum is very clear about this and dvd-r has it's own book type in the specification series. Or should I say several. There is one for dvd-rom, dvd-video, dvd-r 1.0, dvd-r(G) 2.0, dvd-r(A) 2.0, dvd-rw and the list goes on So no there is one spec but it's divided up into books which may have more than one version. The dvd player should look for things to be spec complient and one of those things is regional information.

Now for instance dvd-r's can not be specific region encoded and so the control area of a disc in premastered. The region informaion in the control area must match the VMG(video manager) and many people have been bitten by this. Pressed or burnt discs. If you used a build from the HD(or a .img) with dvdsp 2 the RCM(region code mask) will be flagged as 192 not 0(regions 7 & 8 disabled the rest ok). So if you then use toast to write to DLT or ħr it'll will not be spec legal unless you change it with a 3rd party app.

So although there are many things that can cause problems with ħr there are many things that can go wrong with replicated projects aswell and lets face may people here don't have, or possibly want spec level control over things.

Peter,

It's to do with the sectors and ECC blocks, basically way data is cached when the player is playing recordable media. More than one rotation is needed to get all the ECC block info read then calculated blah die blah so the disc has to spin more than once in order for the data to be transfered.

Jake

Peter Moore
May 4th, 2004, 09:08 PM
So what is a safe max bitrate to use for DVD-R? I've gone as high as 9.5 mbps without a problem, at least not in my Toshiba player.

Jake Russell
May 5th, 2004, 04:21 AM
That is a tricky one as I'm sure you know :-) I mean as always it depends on the numbers you're looking to use or send out and the control of where the disc will play. What encoder you'll use, whether you use AC-3 audio, brand of dvd and if the player likes that brand etc. I mean there isn't a number and the fact is that the job of the compressionist is a bit more complex than ok the dvd-r will take a max of x Mbps. The idea is to keep the bitrate as low as possible and get the best quality they can. Some footage will look fine at low Mbps where other footage will benifit from the high bitrate at certan points.

Not all encoders are equal so while BitVice does as it's told compressor doesn't and will spike so the settings can be adjusted to account for this (sometimes).

I'd say you should look at keeping the max at 7.x Mbps maybe if you use AC-3 audio. But as the world changes and more and more new players are bought the recordable media option is becoming more 'compatible'. I guess you just have to do a risk assesment of whether a complaint is acceptable given the risk.

The rep houses are dropping run prices and min units required also dvd-r was originally a single format and then made into two. General version intended for home use and Authoring intended for professional use. 3.95 GB Authoring media is still the most compatible recordable format as far as I'm aware.

That's funny though cause my old Toshiba is one of the best test machines I've ever had. It's one that will tell me how hard it's working and it's got a bitrate monitor so I can really keep an eye on things and check the bandwidth 'hollywood' movies are using. Oh and I'm not sure this has been mentioned yet but burn speed plays a big role also. Always master at 1x.

Jake

Alessandro Machi
May 5th, 2004, 05:24 AM
What is the bit rate that Hollywood uses?

Jake Russell
May 5th, 2004, 05:35 AM
There is no magic number. All footage therefor discs are different. They will segment re-encode also to make sure the blacks are black and the right datarate is used frame by frame.

I spoke to Jess Bowers at NAB but didn't get a chance to talk about encoding really just authoring. But some use avg. of 3.5-4 and others use a CBR of 10 (total bandwidth).

Hollywood doesn't always get it right though and nor do the manufacturers hence the reason hollywood have problems also.

For most corporate jobs a single pass on a SD-2000 will do the trick with a bitrate of around 6 Mbps. But you've got the flexibility to go back and segment re-encode.

But sometimes software encoders can do a great job of cleaning up noisy footage, a la DVNC in BitVice.

Jake

Peter Moore
May 5th, 2004, 09:39 AM
Every so often you see those "superbit" discs with mpeg-2 bitrates in the 9's and up. On the typical DVD-9 with a 2 hour feature and special features, the bitrate for the video is usually only around 4 or 5.

My upcoming release is going to be about 4.5 mbps for video, and another .5 for the AC-3. But that's because I need to fit a 2 hour movie on one DVD-R.

Dan Euritt
May 5th, 2004, 11:04 PM
<<<-- Originally posted by Jake Russell : I must of saved more people than you've got discs 10 times over atleast by telling them to encode their audio to AC-3... There are many many things that can cause problems with recordable media. There are many many people out there(in the UK anyway) that don't have 3 or 4 players! even if they are $40 in the US. -->>>

you must be dealing with a lot of dvd newbies, if you have to tell 'em to encode with ac-3! that should be a no-brainer with dvd-r.

and if you're from pal land it also explains a lot... england is at least three years behind the u.s. in dvd player penetration, of course you'll have a lot more failures in that environment... that would also explain your fixation with region coding... people that do dvd-r's operate on such a small scale that they have no need for region coding ripoffs.

that said, i just put out a new title, and today i had two people asking why the picture is skipping, lol!! *&($^%!!!

it was my first commercial dvd-lab pro project, so where is the problem? i plugged some of the mpeg files into the pro version of bitrate viewer, and it appears that the average bitrate is about 5300, with the highest peak bitrate only 7644... but the encoder was set to an average bitrate of 6900, with a peak of 9000+ and a bottom bitrate of ~3,500... 112 vbv, gop's of 15, and of course i use ac-3, 384kbps... the same encoder settings as before.

so much for bragging about the high bitrates that i use, tho... advdinfo sez that it's taiyo yuden media, and i just tested several discs on the old 1999 player my neighor has, no problemo... right now i'm looking at the muxer in dvdlab pro, it's a simple project that i can re-mux elsewhere and re-author in dvdlab pro.

i'm not sure that we could call this a dvd-r problem? maybe the sony burner is giving up the ghost after all those copies.

wrt hollywood... you would die to have the same quality source material that they use, so their encoding bitrate isn't too relative to our lowly xl1s material... and all of us have seen bogus hollywood dvd encoding that totally freezes and skips... the authoring they do in hollywood is extremely complicated also, which can really cause problems.

Jake Russell
May 8th, 2004, 06:06 AM
<<<-- Originally posted by Dan Euritt :
...you must be dealing with a lot of dvd newbies, if you have to tell 'em to encode with ac-3! that should be a no-brainer with dvd-r. -->>>

Oh yes. There are lots of noobs on the apple and dvd boards out there! But that said not many PC authoring apps actually have a AC-3 encoder or even support the import! Right?

<<<-- Originally posted by Dan Euritt : that would also explain your fixation with region coding... people that do dvd-r's operate on such a small scale that they have no need for region coding ripoffs. -->>>

Well actually I guess you missed my point. It was for those people using recordable media. There is region coding on every disc. You just have to flag the regions you want to be able to see the disc or not. If it's got regions 1-8 set to ok then it's still region coded right? Just Region ALL! or RCM 0.

<<<-- Originally posted by Dan Euritt : that said, i just put out a new title, and today i had two people asking why the picture is skipping, lol!! *&($^%!!! -->>>

Hey only 1 is still very good.

<<<-- Originally posted by Dan Euritt : the authoring they do in hollywood is extremely complicated also, which can really cause problems. -->>>

To be honest most aren't that bad and you can track what's going on a lot easier than trying to track a abstraction layer (AL) app. The spec based apps are often a lot easier going on the player than AL apps cause of all the dummy PGCs and loads of pre and post commands being generated send you off all over the place. Normally with spec based apps what is there is suppose to be there and does something but that's not the case with AL apps.

Hope you got the problematic disc playing ok,

Jake
PS. Also looking back, reflectivity & pit size play a part in why some players have problems with high bitrates.

Peter Moore
May 8th, 2004, 07:34 AM
"Oh yes. There are lots of noobs on the apple and dvd boards out there! But that said not many PC authoring apps actually have a AC-3 encoder or even support the import! Right?"

Almost all the cheap PC DVD tools will support AC-3 stereo. I believe Vegas DVDA will support 6-channel AC-3 as well. And then of course there's Scenarist and Maestro. Probably Adobe Encore too. But most of the cheap bundled stuff won't support 5.1 AC-3 but they will encode your PCM to 2.0 AC-3 usually.

Dan Euritt
May 8th, 2004, 06:22 PM
jake, my point was that people who sell content on dvd-r's don't use region coding.

fwiw, the dvd-lab guys seem to be pretty happy with this $29 ac-3 encoder(?):

http://www.pegasys-inc.com/en/index.html

here is their thread: http://www.mmbforums.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=4198

Jake Russell
May 9th, 2004, 04:28 AM
I can't even remember my point :-) I think it wasn't so much to do with region coding but more to do with your (someones) "..cutting corners, or not fully adhering to the dvd spec" comment. I was just using region coding as an eg that sometimes folks don't know what their dvd app is doing.

So the regions thing was just an example as region coding is not something you can use on dvd-r but there are still rules spec wise. And many dvd apps don't flag your region info as you'd expect if you write to the HD or .img. When people think their dvd is region ALL it may actually be 1-6 ok and 7 & 8 disabled. This can cause problems compatibility wise if you then use a 3rd party app to write to ħr.

Ok enough of all that ;-) thanks for the info on AC-3 and the encoder. Cheers guys,

Jake

Dan Euritt
May 9th, 2004, 05:10 PM
well, ya got me thinking about it again :-) i went back and checked the region coding, it was good to go... thanks for the tip!

Jake Russell
May 10th, 2004, 02:54 AM
Ok what did you use to check the region info? IFOEdit?

It wouldn't cause skips and playback issues it would just not let you play the disc. Disc Error etc. so it wouldn't of fixed your problem in this particular case...

-Jake

Dan Euritt
May 10th, 2004, 09:13 PM
since i ship to some overseas companies, i checked the region coding just to make sure that it was correct... i re-authored the dvd with reeldvd, then sent a copy out for testing where it had failed before... keeping my fingers crossed.

Jake Russell
May 11th, 2004, 02:37 AM
Yeah but you checked it with what?

You see with many apps even if you think it's region all it might not be. It will have regions 1-6 ok and 7 & 8 disabled. You have no reason to think this but the apps just do things users are unaware of.

Hope the disc if fine this time. Did you send it on the same brand media?

-Jake

Dan Euritt
May 11th, 2004, 09:50 PM
there is no reason for a dvd-r disc to have any regional coding on it at all... and region coding is certainly not required by the dvd spec... i believe that most dvd authoring apps that cater to the dvd-r crowd don't default to rce checking... in fact, i don't even know how you'd make, say, reeldvd create an rce-enabled disc that disabled specific regions... do you??

yes i use ifoedit, but i also know that ifoedit is still not bug-free... witness it's occasional failure to correctly list mpeg2 frame sizes, for instance.

i used the same discs and content files, hopefully i'll know more by the end of the week!

Jake Russell
May 12th, 2004, 03:27 AM
:-)

Ok RCE is different from Region Coding.

There are 8 regions.

1. Canada, US, etc
2. Japan, Western Europe, Middle East etc
3. Southeast Asia
4. Australia, New Zealand etc
5. Africa, Russia etc
6. China and Tibet
7. Reserved
8. Airlines etc

If your app doesn't have any region coding options then it just means it makes a Region ALL disc, or Region 0 or whatever else those discs are called. As you can see from the list there is no Region '0'. Region '0' means that the Region Code Mask is flagged as 0 in the VMG(Video Manager). It has to be flagged as something even if it's zero.

Now with dvd-r, yes the spec does cover it :-), it has to be RCM 0 as the lead-in control information is set that way and that information has to be the same in the VMG.

Now the reason this is brought up is because some software, even if it doesn't support 'SETTING' region coding must flag this information in the VMG. Some apps don't flag the RCM in the VMG as 0 but 192(which means 7 & 8 are disabled). Now if the app does this then the information is not the same in the lead-in as in the VMG and this can cause problems compatibility wise and is against the spec.

For example some dvdsp 2 users were building their projects to HD and using Toast as they wanted to be able to control burn speed but when dvdsp 2 writes to HD the RCM is 192(no matter what the region setting is in the project) and when it writes to dvd-r or DLT it flaggs the RCM as 0, if you check all the region check boxes.

Ok that's it I hope! :-)

-Jake

Dan Euritt
May 13th, 2004, 05:33 PM
jake, think of rce(region code enhancement) as an active version of region coding... it's designed to prevent the dvd from playing on code-free dvd players that are set for all regions.

that is a situation you brits definitely need to be aware of, when it comes to getting region 1 hollywood movies to work on your players... but all region coding methods are irrelevant to a discussion about dvd-r's.

<<<--Now with dvd-r, yes the spec does cover it :-)
-Jake -->>>

no, the dvd-r physical media spec does not cover region coding, your toast burner should know better, lol:

http://www.mmbforums.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=5160&start=15

and no dvd-r authoring application should be creating an all-region disc, either... got it? :-)

Jake Russell
May 14th, 2004, 03:15 AM
I know what RCE is!

I've hundereds of Region 1 discs. With and without RCE.

It's got nothing to do with Toast. Toast is doing as it should, leaving the VMG alone.

If a disc has got a VMG! Then it covers region coding my man!!!!! No two ways about it. Toast is doing as it should but many authoring apps out there aren't.

I know Trai. Been a member for a long time. On the Beta Test Edit team. Flew me to NAB. I write him articles. I was the reason he broke out the spec book in the first place regarding this issue.

>>> Quote: and no dvd-r authoring application should be creating an all-region disc, either... got it? :-)<<<

What are you talking about! I don't think I'll get through to you!

The guy who said that people and most players always look at VMG was spot on. All the players I tested did just that and therfore the region coding(Region 1 only) held up on dvd-r BUT the big question is how compatible would it be in Region 1 land! Because the lead-in and VMG didn't match.

-Jake

Dan Euritt
May 14th, 2004, 08:04 PM
i think that what we have here is a failure to communicate, lol!

the ONLY thing people who use recordable dvd's need to know is that the "Region Code Mask is flagged as 0 in the VMG(Video Manager)."

PERIOD... you are now fully dvd-spec legal, per the link i posted... STOP RIGHT THERE :-)

my beef with you, jake, was when you made the following bogus statement:

>>>There is region coding on every disc. You just have to flag the regions you want to be able to see the disc or not.<<<

with recordable dvd's, do NOT ever "flag the regions you want to be able to see the disc or not." ...of course you would have changed the region code mask along with that, so you would have created a dvd that is not fully legal... as was clearly explained in the link i posted.

therefore, since you cannot legally change the region code mask when using recordable dvd's, REGION CODES DON'T APPLY TO RECORDABLE DVD'S.

that is also clearly explained in the dvd demystified faq: http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#1.10

on a lighter note... there are signs my re-authored dvd is now working on one of the players it gagged on before... i used reeldvd instead of the first pro version of dvd-lab, same media and mpeg2/ac-3, except that i had to re-size the 704x480 clip to 720x480, because reeldvd can't handle different sized media.

704x480 frame size is of course dvd-legal, so i think that it's an issue with the dvd-lab muxer(??)... because the dvd-lab authored version was skipping some frames even on the 720x480 segments.

Jake Russell
May 15th, 2004, 05:17 AM
Yep I agree with you. BUT there are MANY MANY MANY MANY dvd apps that don't have the RCM set to '0' in the VMG and that is why I brought the point up. Even if authors think they are doing things right they might not be unless they have TFDVDEdit or IFOEdit to check and change things. MANY apps set the RCM to '192' and not '0' and others flag it differently depending where you build to.

My point with this quote:

>>>There is region coding on every disc. You just have to flag the regions you want to be able to see the disc or not.<<<

is that even if you don't want region coding on the disc or your app doesn't have the ability to change the region settings a value will be in the RCM. Even if it's '0'. So it is region coded just set to ALL or RCM '0'. That field is never blank it's always got a number even if it's zero.

BUT as you and I agree :-), LEGALLY on dvd-r it has to be '0' which is sometimes where compatibility issues come in cause apps are doing inconsistent things behind the scenes.

-Jake