I want to buy another camcorder to shoot weddings along with my GL2. I have read that videograghers say to try to use a equal
quality cam. I have also heard the sony maybe better for low light
situations. I would like to stay around the $2000 range if possiable.
What cams do you GL2 users use as a 2nd cam for weddings?

What other advice would you give for compesating for low light situations at weddings for cam usage?

The specs for GL2 state it is 6 lux. The Sony VX2000 is a 2 lux. The
Sony DCR-TRV 950 is 7 lux. Would you recommend a Sony?
All advice welcome.

Check the prices on the GL, they've come down in the last few months so you may be at your price point for another one. Also remember it's much easier to match up 2 of the same cameras in post.

I shot a wedding once and my 2nd cam was a JVC that I had to borrow while my sony was in the shop, they did not look at all the same and I had a bear of a time in post fixing this.

Now that I have 2 GL2's my life is much easier since I have the exact same settings running in both units at all times.

For lower light at weddings and receptions, go manual and shutter down to 1/30th, you should have more than enough.

Just something to consider.

"go manual and shutter down to 1/30th, you should have more than enough." - Hiyah Miguel, I guess you are NTSC [ PAL here - usual setting is 1/50 ] ? That would be a shutter setting of 60, and that is why you are saying to "lock-off" in manual at 30 - yeah? Don't you get a lot of "juddering" in the final film from the reduced frame rate? Also, are you saying to lock off at 30 then you can "up" the exposure? Or is the Exposure then also "locked" at whatever setting you have?

TIA - Grazie

Confirmed Grazie, been there, got the T shirt!

Never go to 1/30th (NTSC) or 1/25th (PAL) unless you want a strobing/shudder effect. I inadvertantly set 1/25th when I first started and ruined a whole nights shoot, luckily it was not a paid shoot but "good experience".

Hiyah Al! Up early - eh?

Yes, I keep hearing this from NTSC and think that the difference for 1/30 and us, 1/25, is "just" enough to STOP the look of juddering . . think about it . . I don't know, so I can't confirm or deny this . . I do know that 1/25 is JUST not good enough .. then maybe 1/30 [NTSC] is "acceptable - yeah? If this is the case then a lot of what we discuss has a further "complex" issue-base - yeah?

Wouldn't it be nice if we had a "variable" frame rate adjustment - hahahaha . . then we would most likely get into "other" issues . .BUT, perhaps this is THE advantage of the 1/60 native rate of NTSC . . don't know . .

I'm still teasing out the "value" of Manual for event shooting .. still "seeing" the advantages . . but also recognising the value of Auto too - honest!

Grazie

Thanks for the reply. So do any of you use a light on your camera
or do you suggest using one for a low light situation. Will adjusting the shutter take care of it alone? As far as getting another GL2 cam where should I look and stay close to my buget.
Is there any alternative suggested for cam that would work well?
thanks

Honestly? I've given up and bought an On-Camera PAG light system. 20 watts of certainty. It's got barn doors and light diffuser AND daylight filter . .can't ask for more! All for £180=180 quid . . .oh they throw in a battery too PLUS a charger . . Lighting IS everything . .

Shed enough light on this? . . .

Grazie

I would buy a twin GL2, prices being lower than $2000 these days. Be sure to check resellerratings.com for reputable internet dealers before you buy if internet is your way to go.

We use 2 GL2s for weddings. I don't like the look of any speed less than 1/60 and I keep it there all night. Having matching cameras gives you a visual continuity with no post production problems. Having matching cameras was a must for me and the GL2s price made it much easier to afford.

You need a 20W on-board light with diffuser for the GL2. I now use a Frezzi Micro-Fill that is dimmable from 35W and it's just what I need for the darker receptions. I prefer keeping the gain at 6dB, usually end up at 12 but never use 18.
Bob

<<<-- Originally posted by Bob Harotunian : We use 2 GL2s for weddings. I don't like the look of any speed less than 1/60 and I keep it there all night. Having matching cameras gives you a visual continuity with no post production problems. Having matching cameras was a must for me and the GL2s price made it much easier to afford.

You need a 20W on-board light with diffuser for the GL2. I now use a Frezzi Micro-Fill that is dimmable from 35W and it's just what I need for the darker receptions. I prefer keeping the gain at 6dB, usually end up at 12 but never use 18.
Bob -->>>

Wow Bob great that you mention your setup and configuration. I am about to do a 2 camera wedding shoot next Tuesday night and was looking for some details on the best practices.

I like you also shoot Freezi as my light on CAM 1 and CAM 2 I use the NGR Varalux Pro. Do you shoot fully manual, do you shoot in AV or TV mode, what works best for you that you don't find that you made a huge mistake. I want to get this right the first time and some help from someone that is running the same config would be very helpful.

Would you mind a private email to me so that I can discuss a few options and questions with you?

I'm at ftlaud_dj@hotmail.com

Thanks,
MIGUEL

Wow,
Bob thanks that was a great help. I don't own a on board light or diffuser. Can you or anyone suggest where to get a frezzi ? Bob, do you use the onboard light much at the ceromony? Thanks
everyone this is all good info. Like miguel said your configuation info is a great help, especially to me , since I am a beginner to weddings. I have been reading alot of post latley about weddings
and am getting very eager to begin. I need more equipment, and
I am working on that now. Thanks ever so much.
richard

<<<-- Originally posted by Richard Tamayo : Wow,
Bob thanks that was a great help. I don't own a on board light or diffuser. Can you or anyone suggest where to get a frezzi ? Bob, do you use the onboard light much at the ceromony? Thanks
everyone this is all good info. Like miguel said your configuation info is a great help, especially to me , since I am a beginner to weddings. I have been reading alot of post latley about weddings
and am getting very eager to begin. I need more equipment, and
I am working on that now. Thanks ever so much.
richard -->>>

B&H is where I got both my Frezzi and my NRG, beware that there are several configurations on the Frezzi where you can get different end connectors (cigarette lighter, XLR etc), they also have a kit that comes with a sony style hershey bar battery so make sure that you look at all the options.

Miguel,
Which option should I be looking for? Which set up do you use?What will I need to make this light system setup work? Thanks
richard

<<<-- Originally posted by Richard Tamayo : Miguel,
Which option should I be looking for? Which set up do you use?What will I need to make this light system setup work? Thanks
richard -->>>

I chose the Frezzi Micro Fill with Cigarette adapter and for power I picked up 2 power packs from PepBoys (the car parts store in the US) for about 20 dollars each.

The battery packs come with a 120v charger and cigarette lighter charger for on the run, the output about 4.5ah and will run my light for just over an hour and a half as long as I'm not at full power on the light. If you look for these packs they are in a blister pack and they come in a bright red pouch. They show the unit powering cellphones or light electronic stuff in a car but are perfect for this use.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=262657&is=REG is the link for the Frezzi, consider adding an MRFA option which is a diffuser with barn doors and temp kit. Well worth the optional dollars.

Miguel

Hi Richard,
"Bob, do you use the onboard light much at the ceromony? "

W never use lights at the ceremony and I wouldn't do a wedding that required artificial lighting. It's just my opinion that when it comes to weddings, the videographer has an obligation to not interfere with events in any manner. The reception is a different story since many facilities like to keep the lights low.

If you're new to professional wedding video, I would strongly suggest taping at least 2 freebies. There is no substitute for expereince in this business and much is at stake.

Miguel mentioned B&H and I think they are a good vendor with fair prices and a huge inventory.

Good luck,
Bob

Miguel,
Thanks for your input on your Frezzi set-up,it was very useful. I took a look at the other set-ups for the Frezzi, (NP-1, BP-90,5or4
pin XLR setup). Could someone tell me the advantages of one over the other. Miguel, I understand what you are saying and why you use that set-up. I am not to familiar with the XLR . Is that one the canon accessories, MA-300 XLR adapter. If so is that what XLR they would be reffering to? If not tell me what XLR I could use. Bob, thanks I will try a few practices first.That is definately a good idea. Once again thanks to everyone.

<<<-- Originally posted by Richard Tamayo : Miguel,
Thanks for your input on your Frezzi set-up,it was very useful. I took a look at the other set-ups for the Frezzi, (NP-1, BP-90,5or4
pin XLR setup). Could someone tell me the advantages of one over the other. Miguel, I understand what you are saying and why you use that set-up. I am not to familiar with the XLR . Is that one the canon accessories, MA-300 XLR adapter. If so is that what XLR they would be reffering to? If not tell me what XLR I could use. Bob, thanks I will try a few practices first.That is definately a good idea. Once again thanks to everyone. -->>>

MA300 is for audio an uses the audio standard 3 pin xlr connector. This is a 4 pin xlr connector which I can only use logic here in thinking that they don't want you to mistake the audio and power sub-systems so they used a different connector. Since lighting is DC and that's simply a plus and negative power source, you really only need 2 wires or pins at the connector, since I've never seen a 2 pin xlr, the next choice was 3 but since audio uses that one, they seem to have opted to use 4 to keep things seperate.

XLR has an advantage over the cigarette lighter style in that is locks in to position. You can get a very secure fit with a cigarette lighter plug but it's never locked in so you stand the chance of pulling it out. I've never had this happen to me (YET) but there's always a possibility.

I also find that re-working a cigarette lighter connector is much easier as you can fix a broken connector with a quick trip to radio shack. The XLR 4 pin isn't stocked at the shack last time I checked so you may have a tough time in a pinch.

Finally you mentioned the battery options, BP90, NP1 all nice but expensive. I mentioned the 20 dollar battery pack / belt that I'm using because it shows that you don't have to spend 300 dollars for a nice power source as the camera stores want you to.

NRG and others make great professional battery systems that in many cases don't output any more power than what I have in my bag, yet I paid 1-10th the price. I can also call batteries.com and pick up a pair of 6v cells for about 10 bucks when the ones that I'm using go bad or even stop by Pep Boys on my way to a shoot and get a new pack, plug it in my power tap and charge it on the front seat while en-route. Yes the bright red pouch is not very pro looking but very cost effective.

Hope this helps.

That was a good run down on what I am looking at thanks. Now that in mind can anyone tell me which xlr type or model I would order if I were going with the xlr type? I called b&h but they were
closed.Thanks

<<<-- Originally posted by Richard Tamayo : That was a good run down on what I am looking at thanks. Now that in mind can anyone tell me which xlr type or model I would order if I were going with the xlr type? I called b&h but they were
closed.Thanks -->>>

There is only 1 XLR type Rich, Frezzi calls the XLR 4 and XLR 5 but the diffrence is 4 feet or 5 feet of cable, both are still a 4 pin plug. Just make sure that what you're using for power has that type of plug for a tap. Just bear in mind that you're gonig to have a harder time to get an off the shelf and low cost battery pack, XLR is considered more "PRO" and therefore more expensive.

I've been reading everyone's input on lighting and the GL2 and taking the shutter speed down to 1/30. This past weekend I did a wedding that had some pretty bad general lighting and I'm wondering if anyone can help me to shoot better since I've only been donig this a short while.

The problem I had is during the speeches. I have a 30Watt light and it was still not enough to capture the best man talking. They put the wedding party on the stage (with no lights on them, behind them or around them). It was like shooting into a black hole. Even turning on the 30Watt light made no difference at all! It was like the black hole just sucked it up and nothing changed with or without the light on. I was in frame mode with shutter speed of 1/30, gain at 12db (I hate to use this much gain, but without it, I really got black and nothing more) and f1.8 or 1.6 (Can't remember the fstop # exactly). I think the problem is that I needed to be much closer to the subject. I was actually about 10 ft. away. Luckily all the best man said was "I have nothing to say." -- Luckily for me, I hope the B&G won't even notice his little speech is gone.

I hate to say it, but I'm starting to seriously consider trading in my GL2 for a Sony VX2100. I'm mostly worried that I will find a church that is really dark and I that I won't be allowed to turn on a light.

Any advice would be appreciated!

Short of a night-vision camera, nothing is going to be able to produce good video under those situations. People really do expect too much from their cameras as far a low-light shooting is concerned...

Robin.

Thanks for your response, but telling the Bride and Groom that the camera just can't handle capturing their big day is not going to cut it. I need to find a solution that WILL do it becuase I know that plenty of other people and their equipment CAN do it.

If anyone has any information on how to make a GL2 perform better in low light I would really appreciate any help. Right now I am looking into getting a Sony VX2100 because I have seen that it works much better in these situations. Before I spend the money though, I want to ask the people here because there is alot of great knowledge floating around in these boards.

<<<-- Originally posted by Anita Hu : They put the wedding party on the stage (with no lights on them, behind them or around them). It was like shooting into a black hole. -->>>

..and I say again, under situations like that, any camera - short of unacceptable amounts of gain - is going to struggle.
The cameramen who do "pull it off" will have rigged some extra lighting beforehand very likely...

Robin.

Anita,
It's very unusual that a facility would keep lights too low for your GL2 especially during the best man's toast. In any case, if you know in advance that the reception lighting will be very low, you have a couple of options. I would have first warned the B&G that the quality of their video will suffer if lighting is dim. BTW, this should also be in your contract

I always scout the facilities and if I learn that lighting will be dim, I'll ask (and sometimes insist) that the lights be raised for the toasts. If that doesn't work, move closer to your subject and tape from around a 45 degree angle. Your 30W light should be enough from around 7 to 10 feet max with the aperture wide opoen and 12dB of gain. You should get a good image with bright colors.

I've never had a church wedding where I needed artificial lighting but maybe I've just been lucky.

Of course, if you want to spend more money for lower lux, then the vx2100 or pd170 might be the way to go.
Bob

Bob, thank you very much for your reply. I did scout the facility before shooting there and that is how I purchased the lights. I've only done a few weddings so far, and they have all had lighting that the GL2 could handle.

I do have a blurb in my contract excusing me from environmental conditions such as insufficient lighting blah blah blah.

I really like the advice about shooting close to the subject at a 45 deg angle. I'll give that a try next time.

As for spending more money. I don't really want to go that way but I don't want to lose anymore sleep over questionable footage. I surely do not want to have to tell a couple that their wedding video didn't come out especially since I will be shooting some friend's weddings in the next few months.

First of all, I am new to this forum, and have had my new GL-2 exactly one week tonight. I am planning to get into the wedding business as well, and am enjoying this thread immensely.

I am a theatrical lighting designer, and also am a bit more experienced with video than just the last week :). I spent a summer shooting weddings in the mid-1980s with a guy that had a Lowell Omni kit for me to play with. One approach we made to dealing with dark rooms was to set up the Omnis off to the side in the reception hall, aimed upward at the ceiling. Unless the ceiling is 20 feet, and the room really huge, the ambient light provided by the bounce off the ceiling was sufficient to give a reasonable image wherever in the room we were shooting. It brightens the scene, but not in a way that annoys or interferes with the party.

It is possible to purchase theatrical lighting equipment that would serve this same purpose, and quite inexpensively. PAR 64 Cans, with a 500W or 1000W MFL lamp in them should provide a whole lot of light if used in this manner. The equipment costs anywhere from $50 to 80 per instrument, and the lamps are about $30.00 on top of that, and will last almost forever. The light is pretty warm, but if you white balance for them, they should work fine. I would never aim this equipment directly at the subject in a shot (there's a reason the good stuff costs a fortune!), but indirectly or through diffusion, it works pretty well. The cans are pretty big, but the lamp is hidden from direct view, especially if you position them off the ground, or out of sight.

I may soon try to post some video frames of my recent wedding shoot (last week) if anyone indicates an interest. During the rehearsal shoot I could see I NEEDED MORE LIGHT for the wedding. Rather than spend hundreds, I went to the Home Depot hardware store and bought two more of those ugly dual halogen utility lights on the bright yellow stands. Since they would be placed on either MIDDLE SIDE of the church, one light of each unit turned toward the mid back (to give good light to those comming down the aisle) and the other light of each fixture turned toward the mid-front (to give good light to the front where the bridal party would gather, each light having two aimable beams). These lights would not be in the video for the most part since they would be on the middle sides of the chapel against the walls. To me this was a great idea, as I had lost some sleep thinking about light positioning for the wedding. Side lighting would be less harsh on the seated guests also. The bummer was that these lights are only 6 feet tall. I knew when everyone stood up to receive the B&G much of my lighting would be lost. So I hijacked three chairs for a make-shift platform for each light, raising the buggers to at least 8 feet. Then, to make SURE, I placed another 9 ft tall dual halogen Home Depot light (ugly as hell) on the mid left of the front wall to shine down the aisle into the faces of the wedding party as they walked down the aisle. On the far right of the front wall I used a 500 watt Smith Victor on a 7 ft stand with barn doors (to block the light from reaching the seated guests) aiming toward the left to catch both the singers and the B&G as they took their vows. I placed both of my gl2'S on the front right corner of the aisle and let one run at wide angle, aimed down the aisle, and the other for close-ups as they came down the aisle toward me, passing by. I would pan this cam as necessary. Both cams were in arms reach together, while a third Panasonic PVDV953, positioned on the right side of the chapel to get a side shot of them as they came in was running by itself. Later when the processional was over I would move one GL2 behind the preacher for a front shot of the B&G during the vows, leaving the other GL2 in its place but turned around 180 degrees toward the B&G to get a rear full shot of them as they took the vows. Both GL2's were running on battery power. The PVDV953, plugged into the mid-side wall, would also later be swiveled toward the front to get the preacher talking, zoomed up.

So all in all I had about 7000 watts of halogen lighting blazing away, enough to easily blow a fuse on some of the smaller churches I've shot. (I have learned to always turn on all the halogen lights before the wedding to see if any overload problems will occur) So with one fell swoop I destroyed what some would consider about a half hour of precious "ambiance", sacrificing it for a DVD of well lit video, having informed the B&G of my intentions before hand. And you know what? Not one complaint from anyone at the wedding. I was even wondering if I had enough light during the shoot. I may post some video frames of the dimly lit wedding rehearsal to compare to the actual wedding itself if anyone posts interest. I for one will not stand for a below par quality video for my customers if I can help it. The quality of the GL2 is SUPERB with proper lighting but simply looks like a home video without it, even with white balancing and other adjustments. I simply cannot put it any plainer than that. That goes for any cam in my opinion, not just the GL2.

One final point is that it depends on what group of folks you are shooting. I suspect Catholics and other religions are more sensitive to lighting than Black Baptist/Pentacostal folk (who definitely need more lighting due to their dark skin tones anyway). They don't seem to mind extra lighting in my experience and really appreciate the high broadcast quality that the GL2, if not handicapped by marginal lighting, can give. I am not one to saddle a thoroughbred race horse with a 250 lb rider and expect it to win.

Bill and Brian,

Thanks for your input. I guess the way to go is to use some external type of light source, not just the dinky on-camera lighting.

I would be interested to hear any other ideas as well. Keep them coming.

Thanks in advance.

Anita wrote: "I'm mostly worried that I will find a church that is really dark and I that I won't be allowed to turn on a light."

Anita, if you're sure the church will be dark then my advice is to not worry and just politely walk away from the job. There are plenty of well lit churches with daytime ceremonies and big windows out there. I for one don't believe in artificial ceremony lighting and in New England, it's just not acceptable. Remember, it's a wedding first and video second.

Bob

Bob,

Does that mean that you always scout out the location BEFORE you take the job? So far, I've been ACCEPTING the job AND THEN going to scout the location. I like your process and your thinking. You must have alot of experience.

I agree with your comments about not wanting to interfere with the event. I would prefer to kind of be a "fly on the wall" but on the otherhand, shooting a bad video is just not something I want to do. I guess it is a delicate balance when it comes to lighting -- ambiance or good memories.

Hi Anita,
We don't have many years of experience but we're getting there.

From discussions with the client, I'll find out the type and location of the church or facility. If it's Catholic, I'm comfortable that it will be well lit. If it's a small or old country church that I'm not familiar with, I'll either check it out or gather enough information to make a decision. I don't want to worry about lighting issues so I make it clear to the client that the level of their video quality will depend on how well the church and reception are lit. I find that most people are eager to help describe the church and its lighting.

I basically just need adequate lighting around the altar area and I try to get camera 1 as close as possible without being intrusive. Seems that 15' to 20' usually works. Hope that helps.
Bob