Glidecam is currently offering a pretty good deal on the V8.

CLICK HERE for the Glidecam page! (http://www.glidecam.com/specials.html)

So what I'm wondering is... and I hope Charles P will reply... how do you RATE the V8? I've used it a few times with substantially improved shots, but it didn't really do what I expected it would. In reality I should say that *I* wasn't skilled enough to get the results I wanted... but it wasn't bad.

So where does it fit in on the REAL stabilizer scale? If I build the Cody Deegan stabilizer perfectly... how would it compare to the V8?

I saw another thread where a member says he DID build the Cody Deegan project for $500! and he says he's quite happy with the results... If ANYBODY has some footage from a homebuilt system that really shows off their system/skills I'd be more then happy to host it for the forum!

I too am interested in this response. I am about to purchase a v-8. I currently have enough money to do it. I would love to pick it up on sale but I am afraid that it may not do what I am expecting. Looking for the "professional" opinion too.

Thanks,
Scott

I think Charles King may be able to chime in on the performance characteristics of the homebuild vs the V-8. I can say that I've seen Cody's footage and consider it to be absolutely comparable to results that one can get from a commercial unit, in fact it's some of the better operated material I've seen from any DV-sized stabilizer, regardless of cost.

The lesson there, as I think Matt was suggesting, is that a skilled operator can do more with a lesser rig than a novice with the best rig available. Both of you have experiences or concerns that the v8 can't or won't do what you want it do do...could you elaborate on those? If it's "can it make a smooth shot", well yes, it does that. But only if the operator is has the patience to put in the practice time and learn the skill, 'cause no mechanical stabilizer is plug-and-play by their very nature.

Overall, the two components that particularly impact the performance of a stabilizer are the gimbal and the arm. There have been a few posts here about the need to shim the Glidecam gimbals, and the V8 uses a single section arm which limits its travel and isolation capabilities, so there are potential setbacks in these two important areas. I do not necessarily endorse any one rig in this class over the other, although I have found that the Magiqcam does incorporate a good value since it offers a dual arm for a similar price point as most single arm rigs. From a pure performance point of view, I cannot say which is the BEST flying rig since I have never evaluated them all side by side. The new Tiffen Flyer has the best arm in this class, but will also be the most expensive at $6K+.

As far as building versus buying--this does assume that you have access to and proficiency with machining tools and supplies, as well as considering the time involved to be worth the money saved. If one is attempting to improve on the design and incorporate other features, this is definitely a way to go. Again, Charles K. is the man on this subject.

Matt, the other thing to consider at the moment is that Glidecam are on the verge of releasing the V10 and V35. I don't know anything about the V10 other than the fact it was mentioned in a NAB press release but the V35 I know has a dual section arm which uses cables and pulleys which are commonly found in the more expensive arms, don't really know how they affect the performance of the arm but perhaps Charles P or Casey can help us out with that, but casey has already said this new arm has surpassed their expectations on performance. The new rig also has a fully machined gimbal which should eliminate any balance problems, it might be worthwhile dropping David at glidecam an email, the V10 I would imaging would be a V8 replacement so there may be some improvements that would be worth waiting for. Perhaps Casey can tell us more about the V10?

I did have a V8 before I went to the V16, the V8 definately worked but as Charles P said a lot of practice is required to get good results.

Charles P have you seen any of the pics of the new V35 stuff? Just wondering what you think of it?

John.

I have seen this picture (http://steadicamforum.com/v35.jpg) of the V35. From a purely visual design standpoint, the arm is a near-replica of the Steadicam arms circa 1983-1995 (Model 3/EFP). The cables and pulleys help to eliminate some of the springiness found in most lower-end arms which means smoother operation.

The sled (on which the camera sits) is much like a Steadicam Mini (circa 1999) with the added bonus of tool-less gimbal and post adjustment. The camera platform adjustments for fore-and-aft and side-to-side still require multiple actions to fine-tune, an action which is implemented many times a day in normal operation. There is no apparent adjustment for arm pitch at the socket, which means that it cannot be fine tuned for the operator's body attitude, a very important feature that is finally being adopted on some lower-end rigs (has been standard on rigs that use the original Steadicam socket block design since the 70's). This greatly contributes to operator comfort and fatigue. Overall, the components look solid and robust and yet more streamlined than the earlier Glidecam products.

Haven't seen anything on the V10 yet. One can assume that it will cost more than the sale price of the V8, so that alone may be the deciding factor for those who have a specific budget regardless of the feature set.

Just to clarify, the sled in the photo posted by Charles above is not really representative of the final sled at all. Infact the gimbal was just about the only thing that's accurate on it. It's still very much under development. Also worth nothing is that the actual vest will most likely, if I recall correctly, have pitch adjustment at the arm connection. This is easier done on the vest due to how the V-Series socket is designed.

Also, you'll likely be able to special order the V-35 with a standard socket block connection as well.

I apologize but I do not have any information on the V-10 yet, but i'll keep you posted as things roll along with it.

Good to know, thanks Casey. Glad to hear the pitch adjustment will be in place. I believe that the lack of of this feature is responsible for much of the operating discomfort that is reported. Will the new sled have more precise controls on the camera stage? And what are the planned power/video jacks on the rig, both top and bottom? Gimbal and handle does look good. Has the linearity issue been addressed in this version (i.e. not having to use shims)?

Charles, the new V-35 gimbal is completely machined like the Gold gimbal. The linearity issue came about mainly because it utilized some parts that were punched and bent metal, which lacks the tight tolerances that machining has. So this, thankfully, will no longer be an issue.

I'm have not yet seen the new camera stage for the sled, so I can't comment on that. However, in terms of connectivity, I believe the plan is to have at least a composite video line (BNC) for sending signal to the monitor, and a 12V power line (probably Lemo connector) from the base.

This could ofcourse, all change! I'll post what I can, as I hear more...sadly I'm not directly involved with the development of this particular product, so I can't account for ALL of the details.

Also John, the V-35 is a good deal farther along in development than the V-10, so you'll probably see that come to market first. The V-10 will be the replacement for the V-8, but as I said, I don't yet have any information on it.

Just to clarify for other readers: when I said the above:

Glad to hear the pitch adjustment will be in place. I believe that the lack of of this feature is responsible for much of the operating discomfort that is reported.

...I was referring to ALL manufacturers of stabilizers that don't have a pitch adjust, not just Glidecams. The discomfort complaints I've heard were from operators who were using different brands of rigs, and my belief is that part of this is the natural soreness one experiences from using this type of device, but it is greatly compounded by having the rig "pulling" away from the operator as is the case with a non-adjustable arm socket.

"...I think Charles King may be able to chime in on the performance characteristics of the homebuild vs the V-8. "

...and not a moment to soon. Well Matt, Charles P. did say it pretty much the way I see it.

Can a homebuilt perform just as well as the a commercial rig of the same calibre? The answer is yes. I've said this many many times. You have to know what your criterias are and how far you are willing to go to pay for that extra perfection.

If you look at Cody's system, which by the way was not machined at all, proves it can be done without precision tooling. Of course this has strongly to do witht he fact that Cody has grasp the key to operating. Like Charles P. said, it all boils down to the operator.

One thing I'll like to add about Cody system. Just because his plans call for no machining doesn't mean it can't be done using hs plan. If you have a chance to machine the parts than do it.

I say if you have access to a machine shop and someone who knows what he or she is doing than a professional can be achieve regardless of what other people might think.

If you are impress with cody's non-machined rig than can you imagine what a machined rig will give you. Then again, a rig is worthless if the operator behind it hasn't a clue on how to use the system. My take on this issue. :)

Charles K... if you're really really happy with your stabilizer and you want to show off the results then I'd be happy to host a minute or two of video for you.

No pressure, but please take me up on it if you get the notion.

No problem Matt. As soon as I am done with my arm, I'll put a clip up on HBS. One thing though. Have you checked out the clips on HBS website? These are all clips done with homemade stabilizers. You said you wanted clips shot with a homebuilt stabilizer, right?

Well I'm surprise you didn't check these out. Have you seen cody's clip? He has several. How many clips do you want to see?
Like everyone been saying, in the end it's the operator who decides the end result. You can look at as many homemade stabilizers to see the result but the fact of the matter if you don't know how to use a stabilizer and you see a bad clip it should not ultimately be decided that the result is from a badly built stabilizer, right?

A good example is the clip they had on the magiqcam website(if it's still there). Most people complianed it wasn't very good but it was due to an inexperience operator handling it.

Like Charles P. said:

"...is that a skilled operator can do more with a lesser rig than a novice with the best rig available.
...But only if the operator is has the patience to put in the practice time and learn the skill, 'cause no mechanical stabilizer is plug-and-play by their very nature..."

King, I'll go to HBS right after this post. Thanks for reminding me of the obvious!

My enthusiasm for this forum, and the people in it, makes me curious to see the skills and output from fellow members. Cody's work is perhaps the best steadiwork I've seen... but I don't know one thing about Cody's personality other then what I've seen and read on his site. You guys are more like friends so I want to see what you're doing just like I would want to see it if you lived next door... If we were neighbors and you knew that I was as much into this hobby/profession as you wouldn't you be curious about how I personally handled different situations?

My request to see some of your footage is out of curiousity about YOU as an operator and my desire to build Cody's rig.

I find the GC 'sales' to be funny, they just keep extending the sales, so don't feel pressured into anything. I thought a special sale was going to end over a year ago when I got mine, but the 'sales' continue to this day.

Andrew, yes we do seem to have gotten into the habit of just always running various specials. They change from time to time obviously, but chances are that you can usually always get a good deal on a rig.

Well Casey... since you're clearly on the inside laughing at me through the window why don't you fish something out of the demo bin and hook me up with a used one? I want a rig that makes it look like I've shot a thousand hours of footage with it.

If you can't do that then I'll just get a new one and treat it carelessly until it looks like I'm a seasoned professional... then at the precise moment that my prized possession is "stone-washed" to perfection... THEN I'll baby it and keep it in a chamois.

Matt,

I wish I could dig out a demo for you, but I'm not the guy to talk to! You'd want to contact Tom or Dave at the office. Best place to find used V-8 rigs is on Ebay!

Now, "stone-washed stabilizers" sounds like a hell of an idea! I'll have to make a note of that one.

Hey Matt,

Have you made a choice between the V8 and the Cody's stabilizer?

Personally, I chose the Cody's one. I began construction of the sled yesterday. The gimbal assembly is not completed but so far, things goes well. The plans are so clear and detailed, it is not so difficult to achieve if you have the right tools.

I have taken some pics of my not finished yet sled. I am pretty happy with the result.


sunens.uqac.ca/~jparchib/sled1.jpg

sunens.uqac.ca/~jparchib/sled2.jpg

sunens.uqac.ca/~jparchib/sled3.jpg

sunens.uqac.ca/~jparchib/sled4.jpg

Jean-Phillipe:

I've never examined Cody's plans, but this is just an observation based on the pictures:

It looks great overall. I'm just wondering about the bolts that secure the side-to-side and fore-and-aft adjustments on the camera platform. It looks like you will need a wrench to make these adjustments.

Considering that these axes need to be tweaked continuously throughout a shoot, even while the rig is being worn, it seems a bit cumbersome. The quickest fix I can see is to reverse the bolt and put a wing nut on the outside; that way you can adjust it by hand. A sleeker solution is a worm gear or rack and pinion that allows for more precise adjustment.

Charles,

Good observation!

The plan recommends to use Allen screws, which in my opinion are easier to adjust than hex bolts, but wing nuts could be even better. I just put some hex bolts temporarily since I did not buy the Allen screws yet. In fact, according to pics I have seen from the actual Cody's rig, he is using wing nuts on his camera stage. I don't know why his plan is different in this area.

But I consider to put a manfrotto quick release plate mechanism in top of that so the fore and aft adjustment will be provided by this device, and the allen screws will be used only for the side to side adjustments.

Sounds good!

The great thing with the quick release plate is that it helps switch the camera from stabilizer to tripod mode more quickly.

Even the side-to-side adjustments need minute tweaking all day long. Visit any Steadicam operator on set and you'll see a little flurry of fingerwork just as the camera rolls. Fortunately the designs on the high end rigs have developed to where a lock is no longer needed, the fore/aft and side/side controls are simply freely rotating knobs, which helps! And then there's the Ultra, which allows you to adjust these parameters remotely from pushbuttons on the gimbal DURING the shot (something I've never quite gotten my mind around)!

Hi Charles,

Thank you for these invaluable comments.

I totally understand that a very precise adjustment of the camera base is preferable in order to always keep an adequate balance. But the Cody's design (which is basicly the same as the Glidecam V8, V16 series) will be my first steps in the stabilizer realm. I hope that this design will meet my presents requirements and when I will become a more skilled operator, I may consider to build a better camera stage, or buy a better comercially available system.

Visit any Steadicam operator on set and you'll see a little flurry of fingerwork just as the camera rolls.
Beleive me, it is not an easy task to find a movie set in the area where I live , even less a Steadicam operator!!! :-)

Ah, je comprends! (that's about as far as my grade school French will take me).

Absolutely, Jean-Phillipe, build whatever you can right now. I just wanted to throw in a thought or two that might inspire moving beyond the plans even at this juncture!

Well, if it wasn't for the Canadian tax incentives in place for American productions, I'd be coming up to Montreal shortly to work on a movie, and you'd be invited to come by! A DP I work with a lot is doing a show there, and he can't bring any crew. Merde!

Charles,

You cannot imagine how I would appreciate to meet you on a set! I am regularly in the surroundings of Montreal. If ever another opportunity arises and that you must go to Montreal, I hope that the invitation will be still valid!

Charles P, what are those side to side adjustments you were talking about? Are they usually adjustable to stop the rig from swinging more/less from left to right? i.e. sometimes do you need a quicker movement left/right and sometimes yo want it stiffer?

Cheers
Aaron

Hee hee, you said "stiffer".

The side-to-side trim at the camera platform is merely to dial in the proper balance in the roll axis, or horizon. You would think that once you set this for the day, it would remain, but the nature of the beast is that since the system is in such delicate balance, it doesn't take much for it to get nudged minutely out of whack, requiring re-trimming. Even putting the rig up on the shoulder in rest position can necessitate a touch-up in balance. Fore-and-aft gets adjusted a lot more, depending on the shot requirements, but in order to keep as level an image as possible you want to make sure before you roll that the rig isn't listing to one side or another.

Hi guys,

I thought I was going crazy having to adjust my balance during the day. I was thinking my sled was taking a trip to the "Twilight Zone" without me and some gremlin was giving it a little kick just to put it out of balance. I'm glad to hear it's a common thing, even with the professional rigs.

One thing I also noticed was, the longer the drop time, the easier the rig can go out of balance. I know this is old hat with Charles but there are others out there who might read these posts so I just thought I would say that.

Terry

That is a good point, Terry. There is not magic number for the drop-time; it varies from operator to operator and often one will adjust it for the type of shot and external circumstances. The longer the drop time i.e. the less bottom-heavy i.e the more neutrally balanced the rig, the more it will require fine-tuning for balance. However, a short drop time/bottom heavy rig will behave poorly during periods of acceleration, tending to pendulum more. It's a constant tradeoff.