Is there any chance in the next few months that we'll see a price drop in the DVX100A?

It appears B&H has stopped selling the DVX100, and the DVX100A remains at $3500.

I certainly don't know but I wouldn't count on it. It's the hottest high-end consumer filmmaking camera on the market with no real direct competition. If HDV cameras begin appearing this year it might face a bit of competition but, even so, its 24P and image tweaking features will probably keep it strong in the marketplace for a while.

The trend appears towards actually higher prices. The DVX, when first announced, carried an MSRP of $3495, but by the time it hit the market they'd raised that price to $3795. And the 100A seems to have gone up a bit since it was first announced.

ProMax is offering it at about $3370, which I think is the lowest price I've seen from an authorized reseller.

(What's with this price trend -- haven't we all been conditioned that electronics prices always go down? ;) I just noticed that the mini35 has gone up in price. Used to be about $8500 for a full setup, and now it's up to $10,000!)

The rumor is that Canon's new XL2S will also be sporting 24p. Could this lead to a price break after its release later this summer? If I were panny, I'd be lowing prices now just a bit to get those 100a's into hands of those who would wait and buy a XL2.

>>(What's with this price trend -- haven't we all been conditioned that electronics prices always go down? ;) <<
Simple, the dollar is dropping in value against the Euro and the Yen, plus drastically higher fuel prices make shipping costs higher.

<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Morrell : The rumor is that Canon's new XL2S will also be sporting 24p. Could this lead to a price break after its release later this summer? -->>>

People have been waiting to buy an XL2 for over three years now.

If there ever is an XL2, I have gone on record as predicting that it'll be HDV, not DV. I don't believe there will ever be a DV-format XL2. It'll be HDV. And if that's the case, it almost certainly won't be released this summer. I expect Canon to continue to disappoint us, but if by some miracle they do actually make an announcement this year, I expect the announcement to be on the order of "we'll be making an XL2, and it'll be on store shelves September 2005".

Canon's been running a $500 rebate on the XL1 for, what, 9 months now? I think they're just trying to clear out old stock, and they won't make any XL2-related announcement until the XL1 backstock is eliminated. Once they have nothing else to lose (i.e., no more XL1's in stock that they'll be stuck with) then they'll make an announcement about a forthcoming XL2, to attempt to freeze out potential Panasonic buyers.

Bottom line for Bryan: Buy the camera that best suits your needs, aspirations and budget today. There will always be something new just over the horizon.

Trust me on this one, when the XL2 comes out, it will NOT be HDV, definitely 24p DV. I'm not sure if it will be out this summer, maybe fall, but it will be out this year and it will not be HDV and it will have true progressive CCD's. Now I'm going on record, but I cannot reveal my source. But we will all just have to wait...Either way, I'm ready for a 100a (or two) if I can sell my 100.

ill buy your 100 :)

Barry, not to say that "I told you so", but I did. I am seriously considering moving to the XL2. With true 16x9 recording and 24/30p recording, it definitely rivals the DVX100 at a higher price point. HDV is promising but until we see 3 CCD HDV cameras in 3 to 5k price range, they will continue to be out of my market segment. I'm guessing two more years for HDV.

"Trust me on this one, when the XL2 comes out, it will NOT be HDV, definitely 24p DV. I'm not sure if it will be out this summer, maybe fall, but it will be out this year and it will not be HDV and it will have true progressive CCD's. Now I'm going on record, but I cannot reveal my source. But we will all just have to wait...Either way, I'm ready for a 100a (or two) if I can sell my 100."

"If there ever is an XL2, I have gone on record as predicting that it'll be HDV, not DV. I don't believe there will ever be a DV-format XL2. It'll be HDV. And if that's the case, it almost certainly won't be released this summer. I expect Canon to continue to disappoint us, but if by some miracle they do actually make an announcement this year, I expect the announcement to be on the order of "we'll be making an XL2, and it'll be on store shelves September 2005"."

Yeah, Canon kind of stunned me on that one. Never thought they'd do it, but they did. Very, very surprising.

Anybody have any good recipes for crow? :)

All in fun, I knew I was right on this one because I had inside information from NAB. I'm usually wrong more than 50% of the time.

After reading some of the "rumors" about the Xl2, it may not be as cracked up as spec might have you think. I may be sticking with the DVX for some time.

BTW, I ordered the Anamorphic adapter pamphlet. I'm looking forward to learning how to properly use them.

<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : The trend appears towards actually higher prices. The DVX, when first announced, carried an MSRP of $3495, but by the time it hit the market they'd raised that price to $3795. And the 100A seems to have gone up a bit since it was first announced.

ProMax is offering it at about $3370, which I think is the lowest price I've seen from an authorized reseller.
-->>>

I did a check of cnet and it seems like the resellers who are carrying the DVX100 are not offering them for much less than the newer DVX100A.

As of this writing, the 100 is only $100 or so cheaper than the 100A for me:

http://cnet.search.com/search?chkpt=astg.cnet.fd.search.cnet&q=AG-DVX100

Originally posted by Mike Morrell : After reading some of the "rumors" about the Xl2, it may not be as cracked up as spec might have you think. I may be sticking with the DVX for some time.
Yeah, that's what surprised me. When I read the announcement I thought -- there's nothing new here. This is totally "catch-up"... every feature they have listed is already on the DVX. The only thing "new" is that they're using a megapixel CCD to cram more pixels into the same 16:9 surface area that the DVX100A uses in "squeeze mode"... an interesting approach that may or may not provide better video quality.

I remain quite interested in the camera, as there's no denying the reach of the 20x lens is quite attractive, and it may be (emphasis on "may") the ultimate mini35 camera. Got to get it to do some testing.

But I am very surprised (blown away, in fact) that it's not HDV. I'm stunned Canon would commit to HDV, then release another SD camera, and one that doesn't break any new ground. But, as someone else pointed out, Canon doesn't innovate, they let everyone else play their cards and then Canon likes to be the last to the table once they know what everyone else is doing. I guess in that context it makes sense.


BTW, I ordered the Anamorphic adapter pamphlet. I'm looking forward to learning how to properly use them.
Great! Hope it helps! :)

On the still photo D-SLR side, Canon does innovate and is way far ahead of Nikon and way ahead of anyone else.

From the XL2 spec, Canon is giving you more vertical pixels than anyone else on DV. Your widescreen DV pixel aspect ratio remains .9, unlike when we use the anamorphic lens on the DVX and you still get 720 vertical pixels and a 1.2 ratio. This was the the innovative part that I was looking for from the DVX-100a that did not come. That alone would buy me a couple of more years with the DVX.

But a closer examination of Cannon's CCD is that it may not really be any bigger and will the extra pixels really count? It is getting some bad talk from some people who have either tried it briefly at trade shows or have tried to find out more specifications and have not been able to. I'm waiting to see lab tests from impartial reviewers before I buy any more DVX's or go to the XL2. My would be to get two more cameras for 4 cam shoots. If it is a widescreen, I'd use the Xl2's as the main cameras and the DVX's with anamorphic adapters as stationary cams. For 4x3 shoots, I'd reverse the logic. But if the XL2 turns out to be a dud, I am planning on two new DVX100a's. I can get by for a few months on what I have until we all know more.

I think that it is "probable" that HDV will be the next format, but I am not certain of this. Sony and others have $20,000+ HDV cameras with 3 CCD's. IF the format takes, 3CCD cameras will trickle down to the prosumer price range, but how long before we see 3 chip HDV in the 3-5k range is anyones guess. I think that the manufacturers all want to make the price level for the next generation of prosumer cameras more expensive than the last. If this is the case, we may be shooting in DV25 for some time.

"Canon is giving you more vertical pixels than anyone else on
DV. Your widescreen DV pixel aspect ratio remains .9, unlike when
we use the anamorphic lens on the DVX and you still get 720
vertical pixels and a 1.2 ratio. This was the the innovative part
that I was looking for from the DVX-100a that did not come"

Mike (or Barry), not to hijack this thread in a different direction,
but could you clarify what you mean? I don't think I followed that.
You lost me with the .9 vs 1.2 ratio.

Thanks



OH Yeah! I almost forgot.

Here's something for Barry:

16 pieces of crow
breast meat (no bones) (8 crows)
16 pieces of green pepper
16 cherry tomatoes
8 button mushrooms
8 ears of sweet corn
1 1/2 cups of Teriyaki sauce
1/2 cup melted butter
8 kabob skewers

Cut each piece of crow in half and place in a covered bowl with
the Teriyaki sauce over night. Clean and cut each ear of corn into
3 pieces. Cook in boiling salt water for 10 minutes. Alternately put
corn (3 pieces), green peppers (3 pieces) and cherry tomatoes
(3) along with 4 pieces of crow meat on each skewer. Use 1
mushroom to top each skewer. Brush with melted butter and
place on preheated grill for about 4 minutes. Flip, butter again
and place back on grill for another 4 minutes. Repeat one last
time for a total of 12 minutes or until they appear done. Serves
four adults.

(amazing what you can find online, isn't it?)

Hey y'all!

Sorry if this is an inane question, but if you could share your wisdon, I'd greatly appreciate it!

I'm just about to buy my camera. Had planned to buy it from Videosmith, an authorized Panasonic dealer in Philadelphia -- the closest place to me. The price is $3499 w/out a mic.

Over the weekend, I picked up some DV mags and noticed a lot of ads in the back for significantly cheaper cameras. Some of the names were Broadway something-or-other, A&M (I think) and Digital Liquidators. Their cameras are up to $1,400 off, which is a HUGE difference. Is there a risk in buying from these places? Are they authorized Panasonic dealers? (I know, I should just call them, but I left the mag at home today). Are they resellers? What does that mean, exactly? These places all have a 21 day guarantee/return policy. It's a big enough difference that I had to ask if anyone had made a purchase like this from a place like these and, if so, what was your experience?

Someone told me recently that it's wise to buy at least your camera from a local store (as opposed to mail order, even B&H) so you can establish a relationship with them and call with questions as the need arises. Any truth to this advice? And if so, is it worth $1,400?

Thanks for your responses.

Regards,
Kate

I will share the wisdom that I've picked up from these forums.

Buy from this site's sponsors.

If a price is ridiculously low, it's a scam of some kind.

Places that advertise those low prices try to sell you (at ridiculously high prices) the accessories that actually come with the camera.

Buy from this site's sponsors.

Otherwise reputable digital video magazines should know better than to accept advertising from those places.

I don't have the link, but there is a website or an article that shows the "storefronts" of the "bargain" dealers. Those pictures alone are enough to make you stay away.

Originally posted by Mike Morrell : On the still photo D-SLR side, Canon does innovate and is way far ahead of Nikon and way ahead of anyone else.
I was speaking strictly from the DV perspective. Even then, it's not always true -- I think Canon was the first with an actual 30P camera (the original Elura and ZR were 30-frame true progressive, or at least advertised as so).


From the XL2 spec, Canon is giving you more vertical pixels than anyone else on DV. Your widescreen DV pixel aspect ratio remains .9, unlike when we use the anamorphic lens on the DVX and you still get 720 vertical pixels and a 1.2 ratio.
There is much confusion on that issue. All DV is 720 x 480, the only thing that changes (re: widescreen or 4:3) is the aspect ratio of the pixels. All normal DV is .9, all Widescreen NTSC DV is 1.2. The XL2 doesn't record any more pixels on tape than the DVX does.

The XL2 has crammed more pixels onto its CCD than the DVX has, and as such, even though they both use the same physical size of the CCD for their 16:9 images (XL2 16:9 and DVX "Squeeze Mode"), the XL2 should have higher resolution due to the higher-res pixel count. That will likely introduce tradeoffs however: worse low-light performance and lower latitude and susceptibility to smearing.

The DVX with the anamorphic will use the full CCD, at full resolution. The tradeoff there is the focusing/aperture restrictions you face when using the anamorphic adapter.

It will be easier to shoot 16:9 at full res with the Canon. It's possible that the DVX/anamorphic will deliver higher quality. Until we do a side-by-side, that's all conjecture.


I think that it is "probable" that HDV will be the next format, but I am not certain of this. Sony and others have $20,000+ HDV cameras with 3 CCD's.
Nobody has an HDV camera yet. Sony was showing a mockup of something that they may introduce with 3 CCD's at maybe $5k-$6k price point. JVC showed a mockup of a full ENG-style camera with 3 2/3" CCD's, interchangeable lenses, and even 24P, at a price point of $20,000. But as of now, there's no HDV products on the market and none have been officially announced even (the JVC predates HDV and isn't actually an HDV product, even though its format has been grandfathered into the spec).

Do not buy from Broadway! I almost fell for their scam when I was buying my first DVX. They told me that the camera did not come with a charger, warranty, etc and all of these things would be extra.

I deal almost exclusively now for internet sales with either B&H or Adorama. These are both reputable deals and they offer competitive pricing. Do not fall for the scam artists. There are plenty of internet threads on how people have gotten taken by these companies claiming unbelievable low prices. Buy local or buy from a reputable internet dealer.

Barry, I was told by Adobe that they were even working with Canon on creating a new file format preset just for the XL2 because of the increased number of vertical pixels in their 16x9 mode. I agree that it sounds funny that you could have more than 720 pixels and still be DV. Again, we shall see...

As far as the Sony goes, I have been told that their HDV 3ccd product will come out at around the 20k price point once released. I do not know anything about a single chip HDV from Sony though and maybe this is what you saw for 4-6k?

I'll be grilling the reps at WEVA this year and maybe I'll get some more reliable and recent information, maybe not.

<<<-- Originally posted by Kate Myers :
Some of the names were Broadway something-or-other, A&M (I think) and Digital Liquidators. -->>>

www.resellerratings.com I was shown this site only a few months ago, but it's already saved me from a lot of bad buying decisions.

<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : Anybody have any good recipes for crow? :) -->>>

Yeah, I think Jim McFeeley does over at DV magazine... see the the editor's column "The Return of the Revolution" on page 4 in the new (Sept) edition:As I write this we're planning coverage of whatever Canon will announce at Digital Video Expo East. Our guess is that it's an HDV camera with interchangeable lenses, sort of an HD XL2. You probably know by now if we're right.

<<<-- Originally posted by Kate Myers : Over the weekend, I picked up some DV mags and noticed a lot of ads in the back for significantly cheaper cameras. Kate -->>>

Here is a good first test: If the company won't even publish their actual street address location in their ad, how up front are they really trying to be?

As far as the Sony goes, I have been told that their HDV 3ccd product will come out at around the 20k price point once released. I do not know anything about a single chip HDV from Sony though and maybe this is what you saw for 4-6k?
Sony showed a prototype that looked like a DVX/PD150 type of camera, 3 1/3" CCD's, manual zoom control, and a flip-out LCD located on top of the camera handle. And no 24p. It was *extremely* preliminary, and lots of people reported that Sony was asking customers what they would want in a camera like that. I was told the price point was targeted around $5k, maybe $6k.

JVC's design was a big shoulder-mount 2/3" camera, interchangeable lenses etc., targeted at $20k.

Neither camera was a real product, they were just mockups, so everything is subject to change.

I hope that Sony does go this route at the < $5000 price point. That would be outstanding.

I read http://www.dvinfo.net/canonxl2/articles/article06.php about the XL2. What I do not understand is that the image is gathered on the CCD at 960x480 but is it then being scalled down to 720x480 and a 1.2 pixel aspect?

From this article I also found it interesting that the Sony 950 has an effective 690,000 pixel count and 14 bit DSP. That sure sounds pretty good on paper even with a cmaller ccd.

Does anyone know about USA Photo nation.They have the DVX100A posted as $1949 and that seems too cheap.I'm new here on DV info net so please bear with me on not knowing where too look for stuff like this. Anyhelp would be greatly appreciated

<<<-- Originally posted by Toby Engel : Does anyone know about USA Photo nation.They have the DVX100A posted as $1949 and that seems too cheap.I'm new here on DV info net so please bear with me on not knowing where too look for stuff like this. Anyhelp would be greatly appreciated -->>>

They look like typical bottom-dwellers (http://www.resellerratings.com/seller8278.html) that prey on the uninformed who can't resist a too-good-to-be-true come-on price. Ah, many a $5 mil home has been paid for by such strategies!

If you want competitive prices and rock-solid service buy from one of our sponsors (see the link in my signature).

<<<-- Originally posted by Ken Tanaka : <<<-- Originally posted by Toby Engel : Does anyone know about USA Photo nation.They have the DVX100A posted as $1949 and that seems too cheap.I'm new here on DV info net so please bear with me on not knowing where too look for stuff like this. Anyhelp would be greatly appreciated -->>>

They look like typical bottom-dwellers (http://www.resellerratings.com/seller8278.html) that prey on the uninformed who can't resist a too-good-to-be-true come-on price. Ah, many a $5 mil home has been paid for by such strategies!

If you want competitive prices and rock-solid service buy from one of our sponsors (see the link in my signature). -->>>

Arrggh! I saw that photonation price. I knew it was too good. I am like inches from calling someone to order a DVX100A. *hyperventilates*.

Cheapest price from the trusted is?

*can not think rationally or logically atm*

Cheapest price from the trusted is?

$3359 from Promax.com. Also ask Rush at EVS if he can match that price, I bet he can. Also, $3298 from Willoughby's, but they charge a lot for shipping so it nets out the same or higher. Those three are all authorized resellers, which means you'll actually get the manufacturer's warranty AND a free copy of the $299 Magic Bullet for Editors software.

Anyone selling it for less is not an authorized reseller.

<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : $3359 from Promax.com. Also ask Rush at EVS if he can match that price, I bet he can. Also, $3298 from Willoughby's, but they charge a lot for shipping so it nets out the same or higher. Those three are all authorized resellers, which means you'll actually get the manufacturer's warranty AND a free copy of the $299 Magic Bullet for Editors software.

Anyone selling it for less is not an authorized reseller. -->>>

Thank you, so very much! :]

Originally posted by Mike Morrell : I read http://www.dvinfo.net/canonxl2/articles/article06.php about the XL2. What I do not understand is that the image is gathered on the CCD at 960x480 but is it then being scalled down to 720x480 and a 1.2 pixel aspect?
Exactly. It must be scaled to 720x480, or it would not be compliant with the DV spec. This is not necessarily a big deal, because pro 2/3" 16:9 cameras like the SDX900 and DSR570 do the same type of thing. However, be aware that it is most definitely not a 1:1 relationship, you will not have a 960x480 image on tape, you'll have 720x480.

From this article I also found it interesting that the Sony 950 has an effective 690,000 pixel count and 14 bit DSP. That sure sounds pretty good on paper even with a cmaller ccd.
Which is why you can never just read the spec's. The TRV950 does a good high-res 16:9, but the tiny chip with the tiny pixels has problems: vertical smear, worse latitude, etc. Read the writeup on www.bealecorner.com about how the new TRV950 owners felt when compared against the TRV900 it replaced.

You can't go on printed specs, you have to test it and try it and see how it performs in the real world. From the printed spec's, the Canon looks very interesting, but I worry that it may have similar issues to other megapixel-CCD cameras like the TRV950 and even the JVC HD1. So from the specs, it's intriguing, but from Mitch Gross's review/opinion it sounds like it may have some issues. Got to get one in hand and do some detailed testing before any actual factual conclusions can be drawn.

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris L. Gray : <<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : $3359 from Promax.com. Also ask Rush at EVS if he can match that price, I bet he can. Also, $3298 from Willoughby's, but they charge a lot for shipping so it nets out the same or higher. Those three are all authorized resellers, which means you'll actually get the manufacturer's warranty AND a free copy of the $299 Magic Bullet for Editors software.

Anyone selling it for less is not an authorized reseller. -->>>

I'm freaking out.. my order's being processed from EVS. Rush let me have it for $3,379, which is close enough. Fedex overnight standard was another $60, which is fine.

I just might be working on a film short this weekend! :]]]]]]]]]]
*squeals like ned flanders* :p

>> From this article I also found it interesting that the Sony 950 has an effective 690,000 pixel count and 14 bit DSP. That sure sounds pretty good on paper even with a cmaller ccd. <<

The TRV-950 has somewhat enhanced 16:9, but Sony (apparently) intentionally crippled the camera with firmware so it doesn't use the full width of the CCD's. It's pro-cousin, the PDX-10 does use the full CCD width such that the field of view expands in 16:9 mode. For some examples see: http://greenmist.com/dv/16x9

The smaller chips on these cameras present some of their own problems, but I have been happy with my PDX-10, and at current prices ($1,850 at B&H) it gives a lot of bang for the buck. They were listing the TRV-950 for $1700 last time I checked.

The TRV-950 has been discontinued however, and is being replaced by the HC-1000. There are several questionable "improvements" on this camera, like a smaller, lower res LCD screen, lower res viewfinder, smaller battery and moving all the manual controls to the touch screen. However it does appear to have the same high quality 16:9 of the PDX-10. Supposedly the HC-1000 will be less expensive than the TRV-950 but I haven't seen actual US pricing yet.

$3,179.99 for the DVX at Tristate .

http://www.tristatecamera.com/LookAtAll-v5km4np2-PANAGDVX100A-3-0019-0-store.php3.html

i've bought three cameras from them, never had problems.

according to their website,
$2,199.99 for the DVC80!

Tristate is not an authorized dealer. Buy it from them and Panasonic may not honor the warranty, and you won't get the Magic Bullet for Editors software either.

Thanks, Barry. We have two DV Info Net sponsors who are authorized Panasonic dealers, Express Video Supply and Zotz Digital. Get their contact info from our Sponsors page (http://www.dvinfo.net/sponsors/). Hope this helps,

I ordered my DVX from Rush at EVS last week. I couldn't be happier with the service I received and my cam showed up less than 48 hours after I hung up the phone. I can't recommend them more.

Check this out - Has anybody dealt with these folks? I was stunned at the price.

http://www.usaphotonation.com/products.asp?product_id=10778&engine=google

The price is $ 1949. I've seen a bunch of things shot with the 100 and then saw stuff with the xl1 - and frankly there was no comparison.

Now I'm told that the back focus which was a bit soft has been improved along with a bunch of other things.

That's it for me!

Milt Lee

USA Photo Nation, as has been noted elsewhere, is a bottom-feeder dealer that uses unrealistically low price ads to lure unsuspecting customers into its game of ultimately paying far more for standard accessories and junky add-ons. (See Reseller Ratings (http://www.resellerratings.com/seller8278.html))

As has been often suggested, buy from reputable authorized dealers such as our sponsors. In the end it pays. You get the full product delivered as promised with full warranty support.