There's a film short I made many years ago which I telecined both to DV and S-VHS.

The idea is to transfer it to DVD now.

Which are the options I may have and what are the steps? Where can I get some information on programs to do it?

I am not looking for fancy menus or anything, just very good video quality.

Any suggestions?


Carlos

There is a program called DVD Moviefactory that seems to do this transfer in a simpler way than Pinnacle or Premiere.

Has anyone used it?

I'm already downloading the trial version.


Carlos

hi Carlos,

If you want a simple DVD authoring program then Sonic MyDVD might do the job?

www.sonic.com

You can capture directly from firewire, build your DVD and burn.

Most DVD-R/+R writers come with simple authoring software. Nero might be able to do it as well.

http://www.videohelp.com/ will give you more information.

Cheers,

Basically there are three ways to go:

1) use a standalone DVD recorder (like a VCR) to record a DVD

2) go to a professional house and let them make a DVD

3) make a DVD yourself on your computer

The previous replies where all for option 3. With option 3 you
have 2 output methods. Either burn the disc yourself on a DVD-R
or DVD+R if you have a DVD burner or have duplicating facility
stamp you discs (only interesting if you want 100% compatability
with DVD players and/or need multiple copies of a disc).

The difference with option 2 and option 3 with a duplicating
facility is that with option 2 they will also do the authoring.

When doing this yourself you will first have to export the video
to MPEG2 and audio to either AC3 or PCM.

After this step you author your disc (with an Authoring package
named above for example) which means you make the menu's,
add audio and subtitles etc.

Then you either burn it or deliver this project to a duplicating house.

What is the best way to go depends on things like:

- how many discs
- are you going to sell them (compatibility level you'll need)
- money you have to spend
- time you have to spend
- which software you already own
- whether you have DVD burner or are willing to buy one

etc.

Some MPEG2 encoders:
- most NLE's come with one today (Premiere, Vegas, Avid etc.)
- some authoring packages have encoders as well, but quality differs greatly
- Canopus ProCoder
- TMPGEnc
- Cinemacraft Encoder (CCE)

Some AC3 encoders:
- some NLE's come with one
- some authoring packages as well
- Sonic Foundry SoftEncode (standalone application)

Some authoring applications:
- Sony DVD Architect (comes with Vegas)
- Sonic has a range from almost unusable to professional including everything in between
- there are LOADS more

It also depends on whether you are on Mac or PC, ofcourse

Trials are always a good way to test things before buying. But
you really need to decide which things you need and what would
be best to do in that case.

The question as it stands is a bit broad.

Yes, Rob. You are absolutely right. There were many things I left unexplained. Sorry for that. So here it goes:

1) Computer is a PC.

2) Sony 510 DVD internal burner.

3) Only interested in doing this job myself at home.

4) Canopus ADVC100 unit for capturing.

5) For now I'm only interested in programs that will let me trial use them for this job, that should be my first shot at transferring my whole VHS videotheque, mostly recorded in S video.

Let's hope this diminishes my options.

The transfer to the PC and later on to DVD should be as transparent as possible. Highest possible quality.

What would you suggest, Rob?


Carlos

That gets us a bit closer. What editing software are you using?

Authoring applications largely depends on what you want. Do
you want animated menu's, multiple audio or video tracks (in
one movie) and subtitles, end actions etc. A lot of authoring
applications have limitations on these things or don't have some
features at all.

Do you just want to have this short with one audio track, one
video track and not subtitles then options open up fast. If menu
is also not important or perhaps you just want the movie to play
and no menu at all you might not even need an authoring
application (I think Nero can make a movie only DVD-Video disc
as well).

<<<-- Originally posted by Rob Lohman : That gets us a bit closer. What editing software are you using?-->>>

For now I was willing to try this Moviefactory program, at least to see if its quality is good.

But Premiere or Avid Xpress are also available. The program I am running this on is Win 2000pro, which limits the Avid to its 3.0 version. The learning curve on Avid is quite steep though, so I was willing to get something simpler without going wrong on the quality.

<<<-- Authoring applications largely depends on what you want. Do you want animated menu's, multiple audio or video tracks (in
one movie) and subtitles, end actions etc. A lot of authoring
applications have limitations on these things or don't have some
features at all.-->>>

On this case this is a short, to be sent as curriculum to contests, in Brazil and abroad. So I don't see any need for menus.

Though an opening menu might be interesting, as long as it's not difficult to setup.

<<<-- Do you just want to have this short with one audio track, one video track and not subtitles then options open up fast. If menu is also not important or perhaps you just want the movie to play and no menu at all you might not even need an authoring
application (I think Nero can make a movie only DVD-Video disc
as well). -->>>

Only one audio track. The subtitles are alrady on the copy, unfortunately, as it was done several years ago. But I might do a copy from the 35mm negative in the future, and add other subtitles if necessary. But none of that for now.

I also have Nero 6, so I can try that path too.

But maybe Moviefactory can provide all this in one program.


Carlos

what you need seems pretty simple, so you can spend your energy getting the best possible mpeg2 encoding quality.

i've had pretty good luck with the mainconcept encoder that comes in all versions of premiere, you can also buy it as a standalone package, but lately the canopus procoder(not express) in mastering mode has really gotten my interest.

procoder is also a good 'net video encoder, better than cleaner xl, in my experience... so you have another way to get your name out there.

if you telecine again in the future, think about skipping the dv format entirely... it doesn't have all the color info in it(only 4.2.0?)... i have some betacam masters that i'm having the same problem trying to figure out.

OK. First results.

The transfer went quite well. I had downloaded Scenalyzer to try first, but the trial version has a blinking ad that comes every now and then that spoils a real trial application.

So I ended up using WinDV, which is free and simple to use. Only problem is you have no way to check the sound, but it's captured fine too.

Moviefactory was what I used for the transfer to DVD, and things went nicely with it.

As renders are quick for my short, I ended up trying two versions: VCD and SVCD. The former is identified immediatly on my Pioneer DV525 as VCD, but the latter is not recognized as SVCD. The player expelled it a few times, but what I did was press play when the CD was in and it ended up playing it.

Even if quality may be a bit lower, I will send the VCD version to the contest, as it's not the short which is on the competition.

Now comes the second stage, which is transferring some documentaries I did and others I am working on. This were shot in Hi8 and will also be captured in the same way. This time the final media should be DVD.

How do you set the burning programs in order to put say three 30 minute programs on one DVD? Moviefactory did not accept the settings I put, but I don't know where or what to change, if possible having some idea of how quality will be affected.

Some time ago I think I read that you could change the pixel count in order to get to the best relationship program size/DVD space (4.7GB). How do you do that? I thought the program suggested a way to do it.

There are also some old off-the-air programs I will try to transfer to DVD from my VHS tapes, but such matters may not be dealt with in this Forum. Please correct me if I am wrong and it's allowed up to a certain degree and which degree that would be.

Dan, your comments on trying to get the best possible MPEG2 quality is on the spot for me. How good is the Premiere encoder compared to Avid Xpress? Is Avid better on 3.5 or 4.0 versions?

This telecine did not go as planned, as I had taken an analog Betacam tape that the lab couldn't figure how to unlock to tape on it. Don't laugh, because the notch that should be covered for recording was in place, but the recorder did not acknowledge it. How is that possible? Did Sony change the Betacam locks?

But I had planned to record in Betacam, S-VHS and DV. It's likely that I do another transfer from the negative, so then maybe I have a chance to use that tape.

I will try to get a hand on the Procoder to see what I get. In any case, to get into the PC I have to use an interface that converts the analog video in DV. So how can I skip it?


Carlos

Keep in mind that VCD is lowest quality available, then comes
SVCD and finally DVD. Since you have a DVD burner and are
going to that route I would do everything in DVD.

I would not let the MPEG encoder that comes with the NLE
dictate my NLE choice. Why? Because you can get two excellent
encoders TMPGEnc and Canopus ProCoder for not that much
money (depending on budget ofcourse). It might be a deciding
factor, but I would not want it to be my only factor.

I haven't tried out that many authoring packages myself so can't
really suggest any of those to you. I'll let others speak to you
about that.

<<<-- Originally posted by Carlos E. Martinez :
Some time ago I think I read that you could change the pixel count in order to get to the best relationship program size/DVD space (4.7GB). How do you do that? I thought the program suggested a way to do it. -->>>

You're describing the bit rate/data rate of the, in this case, MPEG-2/DVD compression . The DVD spec allows a bit rate of 9800 kbps, video and audio combined but burned disks shouldn't exceed 6-7000 (average) for optimum player performance. A single layer disk holds about 4.39 GB of data. Encoders like TMPGEnc, Main Concept and Procoder Express, all of which I use, have both templates for bit rate/quality/file size and settable parameters like min 2000, avg 5000 max 7000 for example. You could do worse than to get the free email series from Customflix - 10 part lesson on making your own DVDs, at http://www.customflix.com/Producer/Top10Nightmares.jsp

David Hurdon

the xlnt mainconcept encoder is used by both sonic and ulead for a number of their products.

part of getting good quality mpeg2 involves always using the two-pass encoding option, and knowing how to tweak the encoder to be fully compatible at a higher bitrate... there is a learning curve there, for sure.

if the software you are looking at doesn't allow you to do all of the above, i wouldn't use it... do a trial run on the el cheapo packages before spending your money.

i agree that using svcd/etc. is totally the wrong way to go... in the usa, dvd rules these days, so if that is your destination, don't compromise the quality with svcd garbage.

i use scenealyzer also, it's a great package, if you are using it, then you must have a dv capture card in your pc... for your second stage hi8 stuff, i'm not sure what the best way to go is... 10-bit uncompressed capture cards are coming way down in price, but i don't have any experience with 'em... i have the same problem there that you do... your ADVC100 is gonna be about the cheapest way to go.

it doesn't sound to me like you need a video editor at all... at the most, maybe a way to trim the beginning and end of the dv file, prior to or after encoding to mpeg2... www.womble.com has some mpeg2-legal editors, or you may be able to do it with procoder(??)... i think that cleaner xl, for instance, lets you control the beginning and end of encoding to mpeg2 within a file.

so what you might need is a cheap dvd authoring package that would allow you to bring in your already encoded mpeg2's... it doesn't sound like you need any kind of a menu, so just import the footage and set it up as the first play.

To those that helped me, let me tell you what seemed to work for me for putting my tapes onto DVD.

1) Capture with WinDV using my Canopus ADVC100. I think this area might be improved with other capture program, so suggestions are still on.

2) Conversion of AVI files onto MPEG-2 with Canopus Procoder 1.5. Now there's a 2.0 version that seems to improve on it. Using the Canopus better involves a learning curve, but you can choose between quality conversion, from "High-Speed" to "Broadcast quality". It also has filters, for video and audio, that may help improve the images.

3) Conversion onto VOB files, using TMPEGenc Author. Files are large, so you have to compress them if you want them to fit in one DVD.

4) Burning the DVD, using CloneDVD 2. This program does the 1-disc recording.

There were also some films I recorded direct off-the-air onto the ADVC100, to avoid the tape step, and it worked great. It's there where I could use some refinement in capture and posterior image/audio processing to improve things.

Now I am testing first in a DVD+RW disc, so as to see if all works fine.

Thanks to all.


Carlos

1) since the ADVC100 does the conversion no other program will help at all. Your analog source probably isn't too great or the cabling? Are you using s-video?

3) I'm not following you on this. If your output files get too large you need to lower the bitrate or a do a smaller movie on the disc

Hi Rob,

Thanks for your comments.

1) In my opinion the ADVC100 is doing a very good capture, though I think the conversion is done by the program, or at least part of it.

Analog sources, for what I did till now, were my S-video recorder (which is quite good) and the satellite receiver, also through S-video output. The cable is reasonable, and I don't think that's the limiting factor. What I would like is some more control on video parameters (if they can be improved) and audio. The programs I used until now for capturing were WinDV and Avid Xpress, and none provided a tool for that (or I didn't find it). Maybe the tools are those on the AVI to MPEG process.

2) The bitrate and other variables is something I will try to learn in the Canopus. I would not like to use more than one disc for each movie, or they stop being practical.


Carlos

1) you are thinking about this wrongly. The ADVC100 is not an
analog capture board that will give you control of the quality
or setings. Why? Because there aren't any to tweak.

The ADVC100 is converting the analog signal into DV (yes, the
same signal that is coming off a miniDV camera). As with a camera
you cannot tweak the DV signal. There is not such things as
resolution, framerate or brightness that you will find on analog
MJPEG capture board and TV boards.

The conversion happens inside the device and it send a DV stream
over the firewire connection to your computer. The only tihng
you can do, same as with a camera, is to copy this stream and
lay it down to disk. This is still called capturing but really should
be called copying or something else.

So just capture DV like you would with your DV camera and that's
all there is to it.

2) this also doesn't make sense. Both encoders are very good
and will give similar results and similar sizes. You can't make
something 500 MB in one package that is 1 GB in another and
expect the same quality. It doesn't work that way.

How many minutes are you encoding?

<<<-- Originally posted by Rob Lohman : 1) you are thinking about this wrongly. The ADVC100 is not an
analog capture board that will give you control of the quality
or setings. Why? Because there aren't any to tweak.

The ADVC100 is converting the analog signal into DV (yes, the
same signal that is coming off a miniDV camera). As with a camera
you cannot tweak the DV signal. There is not such things as
resolution, framerate or brightness that you will find on analog
MJPEG capture board and TV boards.

The conversion happens inside the device and it send a DV stream
over the firewire connection to your computer. The only tihng
you can do, same as with a camera, is to copy this stream and
lay it down to disk. This is still called capturing but really should
be called copying or something else.

So just capture DV like you would with your DV camera and that's
all there is to it.-->>>

I didn't catch it wrongly, as what you described is the way I looked at it. But I wish there was some way to test the signals coming in as they pass through, so we can change them BEFORE going into into the Canopus. E.g.: what are the specs of video and audio so as not to get clipped or cause any kind of artifact?

Some way of setting levels, that's what I mean, before going inside and being converted onto a DV stream. You can't do much afterwards if levels are too low or too high.

<<<--
2) this also doesn't make sense. Both encoders are very good
and will give similar results and similar sizes. You can't make
something 500 MB in one package that is 1 GB in another and
expect the same quality. It doesn't work that way.

How many minutes are you encoding? -->>>

Main interest are old films that are not available in DVD, musical shows, etc. lasting 90 to 120 minutes long. Which is the standard for capturing, who did set it so as to be the same no matter the encoder? When I was gathering information I did get comments that some encoders were better than others, so there seems to be a difference. Or not?


Carlos

1) okay. Now I'm following you, heh. That's an interesting to which
I don't have an answer, sorry. Trial and error is the best thing I
can come up besides the usual like using the highest quality
cables and analog sources (VCR's etc.).

2) well, yes and no. Yes a lot of encoders will producer very
different results and some will even encode smaller while mainting
a visible quality on par with another encoder that produces larger
files.

BUT, I was comparing two quality encoders. The difference between
the top of (affordable) software encoding on the PC isn't that
much in qualiy. Yes there will be a difference, but they are all
fairly close. Including filesize versus quality.

Ofcourse if you take a high quality encoder and compare it to
a low quality one the visual quality as well as encoding efficiency
will highly fluctuate.

If the source is analog and the destination is DVD, the best way to go is a hardware MPEG-2 encoder like Dazzle's DVC-150 or one of ADS Technology's products. It's silly to capture as AVI then software-encode to MPEG-2. The DVC's output is at a flat 600 kbps, but the ADS lets you tinker, and thus control destination file size somewhat.

The MPEG-2 output is as good as you're going to get, and can be handled by TMPGEnc DVD Author without re-rendering, which is a huge plus if you have a lot of material to do.

This is as good a production chain as you're likely to get: 90 minutes to capture 90 minutes of source material to high quality MPEG-2, plus whatever time, if any, you devote to editing or menu creation, then just 30 minutes or so to create the DVD set of files (w/ 2.4 Ghz processor).

<<<-- Originally posted by Fred Retread : If the source is analog and the destination is DVD, the best way to go is a hardware MPEG-2 encoder like Dazzle's DVC-150 or one of ADS Technology's products. It's silly to capture as AVI then software-encode to MPEG-2. The DVC's output is at a flat 600 kbps, but the ADS lets you tinker, and thus control destination file size somewhat.

The MPEG-2 output is as good as you're going to get, and can be handled by TMPGEnc DVD Author without re-rendering, which is a huge plus if you have a lot of material to do.

This is as good a production chain as you're likely to get: 90 minutes to capture 90 minutes of source material to high quality MPEG-2, plus whatever time, if any, you devote to editing or menu creation, then just 30 minutes or so to create the DVD set of files (w/ 2.4 Ghz processor). -->>>

The suggestion looks interesting, but I would like to read some comparison tests between this Dazzle and other converters. It's unusual that the DVC-150 uses an USB 2.0 interface instead of Firewire, which is superior. But who knows?

In any case I am not too much inclined to buy another capture jig, and the extra time on the PC is cheaper.

Now if you would tell me of a cheap DVI system that might be interesting. DVI seems to be superior to standard DV.


Carlos

One other note. You mentioned that you wanted to capture old movies and print to DVD. Some hardware and software encoders will not defeat MacroVision or other anti-piracy schemes. For instance the Canopus ADVC100 will capture anything but the Canopus ADVC300 will not even though it costs more and provides additional controls to clean up old VHS input. If all your old movies are home-movies, you're OK. If some are old VHS hollywood movies, you may have more to think about.

<<<-- Originally posted by Patrick King : One other note. You mentioned that you wanted to capture old movies and print to DVD. Some hardware and software encoders will not defeat MacroVision or other anti-piracy schemes. For instance the Canopus ADVC100 will capture anything but the Canopus ADVC300 will not even though it costs more and provides additional controls to clean up old VHS input. If all your old movies are home-movies, you're OK. If some are old VHS hollywood movies, you may have more to think about. -->>>

An smiley would be in order here. Fortunately the ADVC100 defeats Macrovision, even if they don't provide that info.

Are you sure the 300 does not? I think it does using the same 100 routine.


Carlos

Actually I read a pretty long and vehement thread in another forum about the ADVC300 not being able to defeat MacroVision when the ADVC100 does. The 300 owners were pretty pissed. I'm also wondering if Canopus has corrected that by removing that ability in their new ADVC110 which replaces the ADVC100 which is no longer advertized by Canopus.

Can find the thread to post and can't recall if it was in a Sony Vegas forum, here, or DV.com forum. sorry