A few months ago in this discussion forum I floated the hope that someone should make an HDV editing appliance. (I had directed my wish to David Neuman since his original company Applied Magic makes a stand-alone unit called ScreenPlay, which I have and enjoy.) Someone heard my cry! Unfortunately it is Applied Magic's competitor MacroSystem Digital Video. They're best known for the legendary Casablanca.
This summer they're coming out with the Casablanca Solitaire. It's designed to edit HDV, has removable hard drives, DVD burner, fast processor, lots of memory and best of all, an intuitive and simple user interface! JVC even mentions them as a partner on their home page. It will run around $5000. I am really excited about this. I think this is the final link to making HD truly available to the masses. Up to this point, the HDV experiment has been way too "computer-centric" and has pretty much left folks who "just want to make videos" out in the cold.
Applied Magic--there is still time! Are you going to let MacroSystems run alone and free in this wild, wide open field?

Hmm,

Just my opinion, but spending $5,000 on a "editing appliance" sounds like lining a companies pockets while you have no upgradablity (except through them) on your system.

If you are serious about HDV and making money I'd spend the $5,000 on a computer that you can grow with and will have some re-sale value down the line. Otherwise, if you are looking to do home video type work...this might be a good option.

I've seen Casablanca and I wasn't impressed. It was Firewire-less and had no way to upgrade important pieces. It's just my opinion, but editing HDV or other video for $5,000 is a huge investment. Why not get TRUE independent power with $5,000? I don't know....$5,000 is about what my G5 dual 2ghz, 23 Cinema, Final Cut Pro HD kick ass system costs...ok, $1,000 more. But, hey who's counting?

Murph

I agree Murph. The real advantage of HDV is the fact that it can be acquired at a very low cost (and low apprehension). Not to mention, if HDV is, as Lynne put it, still in its experimental stages, no one is going to buy a stand-alone box until HDV is mainstream. So it seems that pushing proprietary systems to producers as way to start HDV would leave the possibility of adopting a new format in a catch-22. At least with a computer one has the ability to switch formats, or use it for something else. And I'm not sure I want a "simple" interface for editing (JVC's camera already comes with one). It just seems very counterintuitive for an editor who is versed in Avid or FCP to learn a completely new and untested software package just for the sake of having a stand-alone system. Why would it not be far more advantageous for the already-timid-about-HDV community to work with HDV on tried and true platforms with which they are already comfortable and versed? We're still not even sure yet of who will adopt the HDV format (consumers, indie filmmakers, in-house studios, etc). What will bring HDV to the masses is the ability for current producers to try HDV with the hardware and software that they already have and use, not an all in one box. Unless HDV just explodes into the mainstream, I'll bet MacroSystems will have a room full of closed boxes.

I have yet to see any computer that holds its value, proprietary or otherwise. I'm currently selling an eMac on ebay loaded with FCP4 that I'll be lucky if I can get half what I paid a mere year ago!
I talked with someone at MacroSystems this AM. These folks got burned on their Kron machine a few years ago so I'm sure they've learned a few lessons. I am convinced a revolution begins when everyone understands it. Can you imagine where CDs, DVDs and VCRs would be had they remained strictly an outputted product of a home computer?
For you professional editors that are used to the FCP or Avid or Premiere interfaces, I can understand why this machine would be a step backwards. For the rest of us, it would be like opening a window in a stuffy room!

I see eMacs going for about 75% to 80% of their value on ebay all the time. Don't confuse the hardware and software issue. Software can loose it's value very quickly, even FCP. If the software is sold separately (unregistered with disks, box serial numbers etc.) it holds it's value better also. Software installed on computers has very little value.

I wish my bidders knew that! OK, so it's an academic version of FCP. But still, my total investment was over $2,000 and the last time I ran my reserve auction I got a max of $860. One more try...

Back to the Solitaire, I asked if they would be showing at the upcoming NYC DV Expo but they said no, not until WEVA. Since they're based in Boulder, I asked if I could stop in and see a demo and they said perhaps in a couple of weeks.

Keep in mind that some of the greatest films of all times were cut with little more than a razor blade and some cement and a small viewer. Somehow we've lost sight of that and feel that if we can't make the letter "l" jiggle in the title, then the software sucks. I think I speak for the "masses" when I say that I just want something that works everytime I turn it on, that preserves picture quality throughout, that keeps track of my footage easily and gives me a few audio tracks to work with. And I don't want to share the electronics with a potential virus that snuck in overnight. Hey, I'm easy!

You think a Mac loses value...try an editing appliance! At least there are 10:1 ratio of people willing to buy a Mac from you later. But, an editing appliance is only useful to people on this board! (and other video boards)

I'll give you the fact that editing appliances are nice for beginners. But, if you are not a beginner I'd re-evaluate your $5,000 investment.

Murph

Maybe I'd better modify that price before folks get the wrong idea. I'm quoting their high end device with something on the order of 300 GB. I believe their standard option with 160 or so was like $4000.

The $860 price is pretty good for a computer that sells new for $799 or $999. Don't expect much for the software. Many students use pirated copies of FCP. I know many of mine do. A pro can't use an academic copy without updating the license. So, the software really won't have much value.

http://www.macrosystem.de/e/solitaire.html

Check it out rather than trust my brief exposure to it!

I could see the benefit in a dedicated HDV box if you're planning on capturing from multiple HD10's at once, though even then one could IMO; with a bit of forethought, put together a decent system for under $4,000US.
As for easy to use HDV editing software, there's a growing number of software houses adding HDV capabilities to their NLE's as well as integrated capture utilities for the HD10.

It's my honest belief that the fear of what one needs to handle HDV is far greater than the reality, and that leaves indecisive, ill-informed people open to over investing in so many areas which inevitably leads to developing a negative opinion about something that really is pretty straight forward and quite enjoyable.

"And I don't want to share the electronics with a potential virus that snuck in overnight."

So unplug your PC from the net, and you won't have this problem.
A dedicated PC is just as reliable as any turnkey system. Just a lot cheaper and more upgradeable.
Ken

I still think if you buy a good PC and the bundled Premiere Pro and Aspect HD, you'd be better off.

I did a quick check, and came up with this:

Between $1700 and $2600 for an Alienware system. (http://alienware.com/system_pages/area-51.aspx)

Or a Dell for $1800. (http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&kc=6V528&l=en&oc=XPSSO&s=dhs)

Aspect HD, Adobe Premiere Pro, Encore (DVD) and Audition (audio or titles, I think) for $1200. (http://www.cineform.com/index.asp)

Find a good HD-style LCD monitor, and you're good to go!

Or go the Apple route:

$3000 for a dual 2 gz G5 PowerMac (http://www.cineform.com/index.asp), $2000 for a 23 inch HD monitor (http://www.apple.com/displays/acd23/), $1000 for Final Cut Pro HD (http://www.apple.com/finalcutpro/), and $179 for Lumiere HD. (http://www.lumierehd.com/)

heath

Heath, using your numbers the Solitaire box comes up as a good deal. It's $4000 for 160 GB storage and $5000 for 300 GB.

Heath, agreed.

Lynne, I don't believe the new Macrosystem product will be any match for technology that exists today (a.k.a Aspect HD) and it is not even available. When it is it will cost twice as much with half the performance and one tenth of the features. Macrosystems switched to PC platforms years ago. They use an embedded operating system like VxWorks under the belief that in more stable than Windows XP. This is no-longer true, primarily because bugs can appear everywhere, Macrosystem has a lot of code of their own as potential failure points. As for the number of engineers to fix bugs I would favour Microsoft and Adobe over Macrosystem and Windriver.

I do still believe there is a market for turnkey "black box" solutions but the stability is not the compelling reason. Ease of use can be a factor, and my ScreenPlay is still far easier to use than any Macrosystem product. :)

Well, as I said before, I'm a ScreenPlay fan. I wish you'd take that same device and convert it to edit HDV!

Health pointed out that you can get a screaming NLE system for around $3000 (PC = $1800 + Aspect HD with Pro software $1200.) If you want to go from 160GB to 300GB add $100. $3100 beats $5000. Plus PC prices are always falling, by the time this thing comes out your expense might around $2000.

But you have to factor in the frustration factor for trying to learn the software and that's--what?--priceless. Those hours and hours spend on the learning slope. And then when you stop for a month or two to do something else, you have to start all over again. Whereas a box...you turn on and in seconds you're cutting and humming along. You have to add in this stress factor because you're literally talking days subtracted from your life. On your deathbed (not to be maudlin) would you pay $5000 for another month to live and enjoy life? I sure would!!!

I would say that if you paid:

$2000 for the 3 ghz PC and a nice monitor

$1200 for Premiere Pro, Aspect HD with tools to make pro DVDs and nice titles, plus audio

$500 will probably get you a good amount of hard drive space. I wouldn't be surprised if that got you upwards of 500 to 600 gb. All you have to do is figure out what are the best hard drives (David, which one?) and I'm sure you can grab them at CompUSA for 50 cents to a buck a gigabyte.

Plus, and I'm a Machead here, Windows XP is more stable than someone's own Operating System. Millions of people use Windows XP, so Microsoft can do many tests from this and then update everything.

heath

You're starting to sound like I used to, Lynne. I'll just buy this thing, because it seems good. I was lucky my friends stopped me from buying these things!

Would you buy a light kit because it said it was an HDV light kit, and cost $1000 more than the other light kit?

I wouldn't...

heath

This ain't going anywhere...no sense trying to convert. You should buy it and let us know how it goes!

Murph

Murph,

Good point.

heath

One last thing, Lynne:

Is it upgradable?

Does it do other HD, like Aspect HD and Prospect HD do?

The learning curve on non-linear editing isn't tough; I went into Premiere 5.1 and Final Cut Pro 1.0 cold (no non-linear experience other than 5 minutes watching a 1996 Avid clunk along) and learned what I needed within a couple of hours.

And I'm NOT much of a tech person; I can't do graphics or websites! (But I can write, direct, produce and edit well, btw...)

heath

When I say upgradable, I mean hardware-wise. Can you go into CompUSA and buy a new hard drive for a song, or do you have to buy THEIR hard drive for three times the price, like Compaq and HP?

heath

Applied Magic have a nice system for $4000. (http://www.applied-magic.com/p_hdcinema.html)

heath

(I'm directing this mainly to David Newman since he's the only known one among us with the power to create hardware...) The point is there are probably lots of folks like myself out there that prefer the simplicity of a dedicated editing appliance that comes with its proprietary simple user interface. And we're willing to pay for that simplicity. Yes, even thousands of dollars more. I mean, 100,000 Cassie owners can't all be crazy. Since we're all in the business to make money, why not recognize the need--the vulnerability?--the gullibility?--whatever it is and make a product that bypasses the PC and Mac interface? Editing doesn't have to be as complicated as it is! Let us concentrate on the ART of editing and leave the SCIENCE to others.

I don't think your proposal is a very viable for a manufacturer. Apple is not a large computer manufacturer any longer. But I believe they produce more than 100,000 iMacs per quarter and produce the easiest and simplest interface for editing video in the world, iMovie. My 10 year old son produces videos on iMovie. He knows more about the program, and operates it better than I do. I'm not really sure what you're looking for Lynne?

iMovie doesn't edit HDV.
Maybe I'm just a poor learner but I bought two books on FCP (the Dummies one and one by Rubin). After squinting at my 17" eMac screen for hours on end until my eyes felt like they were ready to explode, the Rubin book brought me to the point where I think, I think I could have cut something very basic. But that was three months ago. I'd have to start all over again because I haven't used it since. I told someone I felt like FCP was like sitting in the cockpit of a 747 with its miriad of controls when all I really needed was a Piper Cub to get me from point A to point B. Now if I had the Cassie or ScreenPlay, it's like typing. You just don't forget the fundamentals because....because....it...just...makes...sense.

I feel you're over thinking FCP. My students are editing with FCP within the first hour of class. Editing isn't brain surgery, if you make a mistake everything is still OK. Forums like this and Apple's FCP support forum are here to help. If book learning doesn't fit your style, search out a good workshop or seminar on FCP. It's much cheaper than a $4,000 proprietary editing box.

- Couldn't help it - just had to add my $.02.

I helped a friend edit some sync 2 camera - separate sound track stuff on an older Casablanca. I'll take Ulead Media Studio Pro any day. The limited capabilities of the "Cassy" as he called it just don't necessarily translate into simplicity.

Here are some things I know MSP does - and they now have HDV plug-in.
1. Import a series-of-pictures (from animator)
2. Import a high-res still, and pan, tilt, and zoom around it.
3. Display video on separate monitor from timeline, bin, etc.
4. import a low-res mpg-1 (from internet).
5. give you a choice of using crummy included MPG-2 encoder or separate one for your DVDs.
6. Warp a picture into an infinite variety of 3d, cylindrical, and spherical shapes.
7. While adding transitions is simple, keyframes can still be added to modify the linearity of transitions. Keyframes can also be added to - say - gradually change color correction throughout a clip.
8. Export low-res clip (for internet).
9. Export PAL for your European friends.
...and much, much more!

Cuts only editing with an occasional dissolve is still simple - and the added capabilities are there when you're ready

Oh yeah! ...and all that stuff everyone else mentioned.

Lynne,

I'm not sure I understand what you want your NLE to do. You could cover the screen to cover everything but the timeline - then, you could only arrange footage (and maybe add transitions). I don't see what could be simpler. Use of all the bells and whistles in NLE software is not requisite; just ignore them, and the software is just as easy as any "simple" NLE. And the huge advantage is, since many other people know how to edit in FCP and the like, if you get stuck, chances are someone else has been there - and the solution is tucked away on a nice little message board such as this.

Just my .02.

<<<-- Originally posted by Lynne Whelden : iMovie doesn't edit HDV.
Maybe I'm just a poor learner but I bought two books on FCP (the Dummies one and one by Rubin). After squinting at my 17" eMac screen for hours on end until my eyes felt like they were ready to explode, the Rubin book brought me to the point where I think, I think I could have cut something very basic. But that was three months ago. I'd have to start all over again because I haven't used it since. I told someone I felt like FCP was like sitting in the cockpit of a 747 with its miriad of controls when all I really needed was a Piper Cub to get me from point A to point B. Now if I had the Cassie or ScreenPlay, it's like typing. You just don't forget the fundamentals because....because....it...just...makes...sense. -->>>

I'm just wondering Lynne; without any disrespect to yourself or your abilities, if you aren't biting off more than you can chew?
If all this HD stuff seems so esoteric to you that you have to rely on a manufactured solution which you believe will overcome via some inate mechanical intelligence, any difficulties you may have with the creation process.....then you may be heading towards an expensive and disappointing outcome.
If all you want is a simple HDV video capture and editing solution, just use the JVC supplied software.
Besides aren't you putting the cart before the horse? I would suggest becoming familiar with the camcorder you intend using, and whether you feel comfortable with it's controls and functions, as well as any extra equipment it may require to enhance it's output, before diving into the editing hardware......

Well, I certainly appreciate the feedback. I agree about the cart and horse thing. I should try the camera and the supplied software and decide where to go from there. I must say I'm a bit perplexed that feelings against editing appliances are so strong here. But after all, this discussion board is really for the cutting edge HD pioneers.

Nah, this board is for everyone!

I don't like appliances because of their price and lack of cheap upgradability.

heath

Lynne,

Frankly, I think the most important thing is to find something that works for you. Whichever tool you might use, as long as it allows you to be productive and creative.

In my opinion, it is as important to have a powerful and flexible editing solution as it is to not get caught up in the bells and whistles and loose sight of your creative vision.

Let's not forget that the editing solution is the tool, there is a lot more to editorial than the tool.

Furthermore, if you find the computer-based editing solutions distracting to your creative process than I say an editing appliance makes a lot of sense.

My favorites films use no more than 2 types of transitions, the rest are straight cuts. And they were cut the old fashion way, on flat beds editors.

I'm feel the same. My favorite movies have no effects or almost none. With the exception of Star Wars, but I don't even feel like it's effects because there were no computers. Nowadays, I feel that computers are effects and real life effect shots are not really effects! Make sense?

Anywho, you can make an Oscar film with iMovie if you really want to do it. It's pretty much gotten to that point. It's the story as always..

Murph

A film at Sundance was cut on iMovie.

hwm

Oh yeah, the one where the guy took all the footage from growing up and made a documentry/movie? Apparently, he had footage in lots of formats and even 8mm (converted).

I think the total cost was like $250!

Makes me want to become a Producer...investing might be the way to go in this sub-$1000 market of movies!!!

Murph

His name is Jonathan Caouette and he's from Houston. There's been a bit of a buzz here since he went to Cannes. I haven't seen the film yet - seems like it was done in a similar light to "Capturing the Friedmans."

The film was edited in iMovie and cost $218.32 (according to the local paper).