http://panasonic.jp/dvc/gs400k/

It looks like a worthy upgrade on paper.

Tommy, it's time to retire your black mamba. Mine too :-))

I wonder how much the street price would be?

Allan, not all the Japanese characters are coming through on my current browser, but am I getting the message that Panasonic is claiming real progressive for the gs400? With the 100k, the word was only used in connection with the still photos, but not so with the 400. If it's real 16:9 and no smear problem...

And, oh, yeah, seems it will come in black, too. Word must be getting out about those crazy Westerners who like black.

Tommy, it's time to retire your black mamba. Mine too :-))

Now this is news worth waking up for!

I'll take the black one!

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-12/74415/NVGS400.jpg

Thanks for the "find" Patricia! I can't tell you how many times I looked at the New Products page on the Pana Japan site!

Yeah, one of my Japanese colleagues said that the pro-cinema mode was described as "progressive pro-cinema." I was wondering the same thing. Or, maybe Panasonic calls frame mode "progressive??" If true progressive, that would be quite a step up over the GS100 and DV953. 740,000 pixels in 16:9 30P...maybe that's how they are doing the simultaneous 1.2 Mpxl stills?

It's exactly the same procinema technology as that of GS100K (frame mode+cinelike gamma+bass enhancer+widemode). The same explanation of procinema is contained in the GS100K page.

16:9 technology and resolution (540K against 740K) have definitely been improved (over the GS100K). It reads good indeed but nothing beats the 1.38MP/1.5MP resolution of the Opturas on this aspect.

More picture adjustment under Advanced Functions: Detail, Color, Brightness, Sharpness

Take note: NEW (the Japanized English word "power upped" was used to describe it) Crystal Engine - (whatever that means).

Has there been any mention of low dispersion lens that reduces chromatic aberration to 1/3 in the English specs (similar to the GS100 and DVC30).

I'd love to get this one..but I'll wait for Xmas or for the price to break the JPY100K barrier, whichever comes first :-). But if I consult with the wife, she'd probably say whichever comes last :-))

Just wondering, what if the special limited edition black is not released outside Japan, what will you guys buy?

Thanks, Allan. If I was going to buy one, I'd opt for the black model. But, I think I'll pass on this one. Not enough improvements, that I can see right now, over my DV953.

Just wondering, what if the special limited edition black is not released outside Japan, what will you guys buy?

What, go back to a silver cam? After the Black Mamba, all the other cams look like they left the factory without a paint job!

I think the increased resolution of 16:9 is worth an upgrade all in itself.

Gently used GS100 anyone?

It reads good indeed but nothing beats the 1.38MP/1.5MP resolution of the Opturas on this aspect.

If only the Black Mamba could get the high resolution widescreen of the Optura Xi. Or the Xi get the picture quality of the Black Mamba. Either way!

Amount of pixels no matter sometimes.
May be someone knows about Sony DSR-570WSP. It has an excellent widescreen quality according its 16:9 CCD. DSR-570WSP has only 570k effective pixels of 616k total.

Mikhail, the DSR-570W has CCDs that were designed for 16:9. I believe its pixels are of a different shape than a 4:3 cam. Maybe someone knows more about this..

Illustration of how the GS400 improves on widescreen compared to the GS100. I hope to have this translated later today.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-12/74415/GS400_Wide.JPG

>>the DSR-570W has CCDs that were designed for 16:9. I believe its pixels are of a different shape than a 4:3 cam. Maybe someone knows more about this..<<

The pixels are the same, the shape of the CCD is 16x9 and captures at either 16x9 or 4x3.

Thanks Joe.

Tommy,
Maybe I can help a litte with the translation for the graphic you posted (as given to me by one of my Japanese colleagues). The CCD graphic on the left is GS100 and on right is GS400. The orange caption below the orange 1152x646 says "wide mode." Wide mode on the GS100 is 540,000 pixels and on the GS400 is 740,000 pixels. Note on the GS100 that the 1.04 zoom is not mentioned. There is also no mention of any zoom on the GS400.

The 3 row/column boxes below that are depictions of the TV display and have column labels of (from left to right) Normal, Cinema and Wide Pro-cinema, which are camera modes. I believe the row captions are stretch modes on the TV, but failed to capture that information.

I'm sure Pat or Allan will chime in here with any clarifications.

Follow the color code (reminds me of the Tokyo Metro system :-)

Left side: GS100K widescreen
Black rectangle I guess is the full CCD area
Area surrounded by the green line represents the effective area for normal (4:3) mode
Superimposed is the gray rectangle representing the captured area under wide mode (not cinema mode).

Right side: GS400K widescreen
Again black rectangle should be the full CCD area and area around the green line represents captured area under 4:3 mode.
Superimposed is the orange rectangle showing the captured area under wide mode.

The numbers should be self-explanatory.
It's quite clear that GS400 has reduced the vertical resolution loss and increased the horizontal angle of view compared to the GS100.

Jap texts (blue and red) under the rightmost rectangle literally translates to "ALMOST the same high definition (quality) achieved when shooting under normal (4:3) mode is realized."

Regarding the TV illustrations at the bottom, those are the usual illustrations contained in the Jap manuals to differentiate the various modes of shooting when viewed at 3 kinds of TVs.

Column headings (from left to right)
Normal Mode
Cinema Mode
Wide/Procinema Mode

Row headings (from top to bottom)
Playback on normal TV through S terminal
Playback on widescreen TV compatible with S1 (video) signal
Playback on widescreen TV compatible with S1/S2 (video) signal

Here's the intriguing part. Please have a look at the illustrations under Row1, Columns 1 and 3 (playback on normal TV of video taken under normal mode AND wide/procinema mode respectively). Do you notice any difference? I don't.

Next, for those who own the GS100, please take a look at page 61 of the Jap manual. For MX5000 owners, please check page 45.

I won't make any conclusions, but I�fd love to hear your comments on this :-))

There also seem to be some changes (improvements) in the way cinema mode is projected through older widescreen TV (S1)

Oops, sorry I realized that many members and guests of this forum may not have access to the Jap manuals of the GS100 and MX5000, so let me describe them.

Similar illustrations in the GS100 and MX5K manuals of the various shooting modes as viewed on different TVs show that widescreen/procinema modes when viewed on a normal TV are stretched vertically (or squeezed horizontally). Thus, that dot on the center appears oval shaped. On the other hand, for cinema mode viewed on a S1 compatible widescreen TV, the image appears to be stretched horizontally.

<<<-- Originally posted by Allan Rejoso :

Here's the intriguing part. Please have a look at the illustrations under Row1, Columns 1 and 3 (playback on normal TV of video taken under normal mode AND wide/procinema mode respectively). Do you notice any difference? I don't.

>>>

I believe third column must contents oval not circle. "Narrow faces" another word. It’s usual situation for looking anamorpic picture on the old TV set. Now, I suppose, all modern 4:3 TV has 16:9 mode compatibility. According this compatibility, picture looks like column 2 shows.

The GS400 is alrady being offered for £1040.00 here:

http://www.shopgenie.co.uk/UK_listing/gen_1/J000076723.html

What price NTSC will be is a mistery. B & H is silent for now.


Carlos

Another GS400 retailer. This time with a $1698 package price.

http://www.worldtradevideo.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/wtv/panasonic_pvgs400.html?E+wtv

Anyone knows who is World Trade Video?

A Google search will get you mostly European threads.


Carlos

i think the GS400 will be a PAL based Camera with the the capability to record in NTSC

easier to make a camera that way, cos you only have to add a little more to the chips to down convert a PAL signal into an NTSC one, which runs at 720x480 30fps where as PAL runs at 720x625 25fps.

and usually Progressive for PAL is 25fps
Film is 24fps
and NTSC is 30fps

NTSC has a few of issues converting film frames of 24fps to 30fps

but these days they have algorythems to make it easier

<<<-- Originally posted by Kamal Tailor : i think the GS400 will be a PAL based Camera with the the capability to record in NTSC

easier to make a camera that way, cos you only have to add a little more to the chips to down convert a PAL signal into an NTSC one, which runs at 720x480 30fps where as PAL runs at 720x625 25fps.

and usually Progressive for PAL is 25fps
Film is 24fps
and NTSC is 30fps

NTSC has a few of issues converting film frames of 24fps to 30fps

but these days they have algorythems to make it easier -->>>



In theory that would be great, particularly for me, but things are not so easy. Much more complicated that you think. Using algorythms wouldn't be the cleaner way to do it and quality suffers.

System conversion might be a thing in the future, when they get to a unique universal digital system, with different outputs for different video systems.


Carlos

yeah i didn't think it would be but i was trying to simplify it a little for ppl and trying to explain to ppl that don't understand what progressive or how they might go about making the camera

it might be a different signal chip that gets changed over for the PAL and the NTSC versions

but i'd still go for a PAL version cos of it's higher resolution output and it's closer to the framerate of Cinematic movies

hmmm i wonder if there is a high speed shutter mode for procinema mode

oooer would that be cool =)

especially for those Kung Fu Action sequences ;)
hehehe j/k

From what I can gather reading the Japanese specs and all, the improvements over the DV953 are as follows:


12X vs. 10X Zoom
60,000 more pixels in 4:3 video
271,152 more pixels in 16:9
Wider horizontal field of view in 16:9
Pro-cinema Widescreen mode
3 lux better low light performance
Improved video processing (Crystal Engine) should reduce low light noise and grain
4 Mpxl vs. 3 Mpxl stills to SD card
1.2 Mpxl still to SD while videoing
High Speed USB (allows real time video to PC)
Smooth color nightview
Tele-macro focus
Power LCD
Dual function Focus/Zoom ring
Beauty skin mode


Big functional decrease from DV953, IMO, is the loss of the jog dial and having to use the LCD when in manual mode.

Did I miss anything significant?

Guy, that sounds good to me. Thanks!

.. having to use the LCD when in manual mode.


That may not be necessary Guy. The GS400 shares the basic layout of the GS200 (Pany's new universal design that is). If I remember correctly, the slide switch to activate manual mode is still located somewhere on the top left portion of the rubber-like grip area.

Note that GS400 has 3 buttons located (near the lens barrel) at the front of the LCD panel. The top 2 buttons are used to switch the function of the ring among shutter speed, f-stop/gain, manual focus and zoom. The lowermost button I believe is the white balance button.

So it may seem that Pany Japan read the rants of Bogdan :-)) on this board as regards the inconvenience of the new universal design when it comes to manual mode shooting and seems to have cleverly solved it.

The way I see it, there are 2 ways to perform manual shooting; 1st, through the cross-layout buttons (I'm literally translating the Jap term for that conspicuous thing) located inside the LCD panel and 2nd, through the multi-function ring and those 3 buttons near the lens barrel.

Well of course I'm still guessing based on available info. So let's verify once this cam is finally out.

For shooters like me who have difficulty in reaching and operating the jog wheel while actually shooting (I normally use my left hand to do it, instead of my right thumb or pointing finger), placement of the manual function buttons at the left front side of the cam may prove to be better.

That multi-function ring sure is going to be convenient.

kewl!!

I traded my gs100 in for an Optura xi for the bigger chip and better 16x9 mode...

Here's my question: Does the new gs400 "compensate" with a 1.04 (%4.00) boost to vert resolution like the gs100? Or is it a "clean" 16x9?

Also any word on the audio capabilities?


I wanna know, and I want one!

I traded my gs100 in for an Optura xi for the bigger chip and better 16x9 mode...

I did the exact opposite and I although I missed the higher 16:9 resolution of the Xi I found the GS100 video to be more pleasing.

Funny how the Xi has that massive CCD but struggles in low light just as much as the GS100 (or any other 1/6" 3CCD). I think the larger CCDs are just to accommodate the plethora of pixels as its the same configuration found on the Sony 2MP single chippers with similar performance.

Michael, it appears the GS400, with almost identical pixel/CCD configuration as the PDX10, will have a superior 16:9 mode to the GS100.

Here is the illustration showing the 200k pixel difference between the GS100 and GS400 16:9.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-12/74415/GS400_Wide.JPG

Michael, based on what I've seen on the Optura Xi , the latest Optura I played with recentily that use the same 2.2MP CCD, and the illustrations of Pany Japan posted on this thread, I'm convinced that the Optura is better in 16X9 mode...IMO, the best consumer cam in the market right now in terms of widescreen mode. If that were the only basis of buying a cam ne?

No info regarding the percent boost to vert resolution on the GS400 (or is it there somewhere?).

Audio capabilities and manual settings seem to be identical to that of GS100.

I want LANC!

placement of the manual function buttons at the left front side of the cam may prove to be better. Allan, I presume you are talking about the cross-function button. If they don't turn off the viewfinder when the LCD screen is open, I agree. Otherwise, you have to move the camcorder away from your eye.

I didn't see anything in the literature that mentioned a zoom to reach 16:9. But, then again, there was no mention of the 1.04 zoom for the GS100 in the comparison text. Looking at the footprint of the 16:9 image on the CCD, it appears there is no zoom...like the PDX10.

Hey Tommy

I found that I liked the video on the Optura much better, especially in 1/30 shutter mode...but anyway..

I've been trying to do the math from the site showing the comparison. I must not be getting it right. I'm trying to see if there is a 4 pct "compensation" in the 16x9 vids..hopefully someone smarter than I will let me know.

<<<-- Originally posted by Guy Bruner : Allan, I presume you are talking about the cross-function button. If they don't turn off the viewfinder when the LCD screen is open, I agree. Otherwise, you have to move the camcorder away from your eye.

Guy, I think those 3 multi-function buttons (for manual shooting) near the lens barrel should be accessible even when the LCD panel is closed (that is, when using the VF only). Oops, I think I'm getting confused with what you wrote. Are we on the same frequency here? :-))

I must be a real amateur. I don't remember shooting with my black mamba using VF. VF gives me a headache :-))

Michael, back on the first two pages of this thread both Allan and Guy gave explanations/translations of the widescreen diagram. It sounds like you get a wider angle of view but I'm still not so sure that there is no vertical zoom like the 1.04x of the GS100. Either way I don't think it will be near the 1.5MP widescreen mode of the Xi in terms of resolution.

I think those 3 multi-function buttons (for manual shooting) near the lens barrel should be accessible even when the LCD panel is closed
Ok, I understand what you are saying. Maybe it isn't so bad after all. I was thinking that I would have to access controls inside the LCD panel while shooting.

Supervideo has a new photo up (www.supervideo.com/Mamba2.htm) showing the 400k with a lens adapter and xlr unit (the latter not, I think, Panasonic's, but I'm not sure from the wording) and claiming Japan, US and Europe availability the end of June. Sure looks small and handy...

I don't think that first pic is of a GS400. It looks like a GS120 or GS200.

I thought it looked small, too, but then there's the perspective from which it's shot and perhaps the chuckmeister is a large fellow with large hands. The add-on lens is what I would find convincing - looks differently configured from the Pana add-ons I have for my gs100k. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

Tommy, found a gs200 picture to compare, and it definitely looks like a gs200 has been put up on supervideo as a stand-in for the gs400. Hope the mamba 1 and 2 comparison that's supposed to be coming isn't of the gs200 and gs100!

Has anyone found out yet if there really are some carryovers from the dvx to the gs400 - or is it just advertising by suggestion? (You know, you see Michael Jordan in Nikes and somehow you believe if you get those Nikes, some of Michael's moves on the court will rub off on you.)

Pat,
I can't really make out what Panasonic is saying on its Japanese website. But, they are definitely trying to link the GS400 to the DVX100. They even have a picture of the DVX100 in the area where they talk about the electronics.

I have not given much credence to the supervideo site since they posted phony specs for the DV953's widescreen mode.

Guy, supervideo is a rumor site, with news thrown in. But Panasonic Japan is supposedly an official site, and there's been some sleight of hand there, too, as far as most Americans are concerned (not to mention all those European Panasonic sites that had outright wrong info and pictures of the gs400 for months). Which is why I'm wondering whether we will be led down the garden path once again re this DVX/GS400 issue. It's amazing how hard it is to come by solid information on a product that is supposedly going on sale in a few weeks. The worst part will be that even after it's actually being sold, information on what is really going on inside the cam will still be shaky.

Yep, you're right. We'll just have to wait until we can test the actual product before we'll know anything for sure. I'm really interested in when Panasonic will finally post info on the new NA NTSC model...

<<<-- Originally posted by Patricia Kim :

Has anyone found out yet if there really are some carryovers from the dvx to the gs400 - or is it just advertising by suggestion?


The paragraph simply states that the Crystal Engine is a redesign of the high definition/resolution/image quality (not HD alright) circuit that is employed in pro cameras, in order to adopt it to non-commercial small cams, and that it has been "power-upped" for the GS400.

So that implies our GS100 has the pro element in it, being the very first cam to utilize this so called Crystal Engine.

Independent RGB noise reduction and pixel interpolation as well as the other DSPs have been there before, but probably tweaked a little bit.

Among the so called upgrades to the Crytal Engine, Pany mentions the new 3D noise reduction process, which makes a lot of sense considering the heavily densed CCDs of the GS400. Even with the improved noise reduction, Pany only managed to maintain the same light sensitivity of the GS100. Then there's that simultaneously recording to tape and card which may or may not be relevant at all.

<<<-- Originally posted by Guy Bruner : From what I can gather reading the Japanese specs and all, the improvements over the DV953 are as follows:


12X vs. 10X Zoom
60,000 more pixels in 4:3 video
271,152 more pixels in 16:9
Wider horizontal field of view in 16:9
Pro-cinema Widescreen mode
3 lux better low light performance
Improved video processing (Crystal Engine) should reduce low light noise and grain
4 Mpxl vs. 3 Mpxl stills to SD card
1.2 Mpxl still to SD while videoing
High Speed USB (allows real time video to PC)
Smooth color nightview
Tele-macro focus
Power LCD
Dual function Focus/Zoom ring
Beauty skin mode


Big functional decrease from DV953, IMO, is the loss of the jog dial and having to use the LCD when in manual mode.

Did I miss anything significant? -->>>



Assuming the 953 performs the same as the MX5000, you should add the following:


Low dispersion Leica Dicomar glass
Bass enhancer
Better LCD (even without activating Power LCD)
Higher resolution VF (123K against 110K)
Faster and smoother tape loading mechanism
More manual picture adjustments
Built in mono mic on the wired remote
Slow shutter speed settings under card mode (1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/15)
Continuous photo shooting to card
Quick start
Self-timer

The letters are a little bit too small but that switch below the lens barrel (below the 3 manual function buttons) appears to be the auto/manual slide switch. Hmmm, that I think is a better placement compared to the grip area.

Allan, is it possible that the so-called improved noise reduction would give you a less grainy picture in "color night view" mode, even though the lux level has not gone down? Or is "improved" used generically and not in relation to the gs100 specifically? (Hah! Even about camcorders we get into "parsing" sentences!)

Pany Japan normally does direct comparison with the immediately preceding model (Power Upped Crystal Engine against previous Crystal Engine; GS100 widescreen against GS400 widescreen, etc.) so I think GS100 is the specific reference.

Nothing new is written about the Smooth Color Night Mode so I guess it should be the same as before. No gain, no grain :-)). But who knows. The fact that Smooth Color Night Mode is one of the DSP's contained in the Crystal Engine, it could have been tweaked as well.

Supervideo is now claiming the retail price of the gs400 will be $1199 and that there will be 1000+ US dealer locations. If true, sounds like Panasonic is convinced this cam is going to blow away the competition and will sell in enough quantity to give returns on a lower price. At $1199, Allan, you may have to buy before Christmas (or if the price is higher in Japan, get someone to buy you one in the US)! And we all know what Tommy will be doing.

And we all know what Tommy will be doing.

The question is whether or not N.A. gets the black GS400. :) I wonder if I would purchase a Japanese cam solely for the color... Well history tells me that I bought a Japanese MX1000 opposed to the N.A. DV852 only because of a difference in side LCD (2.5" vs. 3.5"). That and Japanese menus are a great deterent for relatives and friends borrowing your cam.

"Can I borrow your camcorder?"

- "Sure, but its all in Japanese"

"Why would you buy a camcorder from Japan?"

- "I don't know what I was thinking.. (heh heh)"



I wonder what a Black Mamba goes for used?

<<<-- Originally posted by Patricia Kim : Supervideo is now claiming the retail price of the gs400 will be $1199-->>>

This would be awesome. I will be updating my obsolete ZR20, and I was originally thinking in the DVC30 or PDX10 range. But if all the stuff said about the GS400 is true, I will be happy: wide screen, cinema gamma, frame mode. Features from the higher end cameras are slowly filtering into the consumer end. I can only imagine the cool consumer cameras we'll have in five years.

Plus, as opposed to the DVC30 or GL2, lenses for the GS400 seem to be a lot cheaper and more available. I'm trying to think ahead, and see what I can reasonably afford to add to the system in the near future. That's why cameras like the DVX100 are out, because I could probably scrape up the money for such a higher end cam, but I could never get more batteries, lights, better mics, etc. I would hate buying something where I couldn't afford the accessories.

So far, if I'm reading the rumors correctly, the two biggest minuses to the GS400 (for my needs at least) are possible low-light issues (I shoot mostly suspense/horror/experimental stuff) and the lack of XLR. Plus, it's not as sexy-looking to me as the DVC30.

My fear is that there won't be a U.S. release for the GS400. Keeping my fingers crossed. Hopefully, in the next month or so...