I would greatly appreciate your input on which MiniDV I should purchase for around $1500 or less. I would like to buy a Canon or a Sony and I'm leaning toward a Sony but not strongly.

This may be the wrong forum to place this post in and if so I apologize but my goal is to shoot 'DV for the masses' a la Michael Moore's Farenheit 9/11, i.e., documentaries.

I'm not a pro, far from it. I'm brand new to the world of DV. I rushed out and purchased a Canon Optura 30 and played with it for about 4 days. I really liked the camera and thought the quality of the film was excellent. However, I kept reading in different Internet forums about Canons and learned that they don't perform well in low light settings. I will be shooting video in a wide range of settings, e.g., outside, inside, early and late. I will not be using any lights, just run and gun. I ended up returning the Canon because I wanted to ensure I made the best purchase possible. With the rate of technological advancement, it's hard to keep up, really impossible especially when you are on a budget.

I acknowledge this is a tough question and it all depends but I would still like to hear from those who know a million times more than me with lots of experience.

All the video is to be placed on my website just to give you an idea of how I plan on using it. Additionally, I plan to encode my video with Clipstream which I have only recently learned about. It's playerless video streaming software. So, run and gun and slap it up on the Internet for viewing by the masses. What do you recommend?

Thank you.

Hey Jim,

After reading for two weeks now, catching up on the different cameras that Sony and Canon have to offer, starting with the G/XL1 and VX1000 to the GL2/XL1s and VX2100, I have but one thing to say. You'll likely be overjoyed after purchasing anyone of them. I've read reviews for all the main "prosumer" Sony and Canon cameras. It seems it comes down to Sony being the best in low light situations.

However, just about all of these reviews begin with "I was deciding between the Canon ____ and the Sony ____, and I'm very glad I picked the Sony." Then the next review states they're glad that they picked the Canon. There's not one review I read where the owner wished he or she had gotten the other one they were considering.

I've been searching Google now for "GL1 vs XL1s," "VX2100 vs GL2," etc. My guess, is that if you're satisfied with the quality of the Optura 30, you'll be extremely impressed with the quality you'll get with a higher end Canon or Sony. Granted, I don't have a camera myself yet, so only consider this information as an opinion.

My one recommendation is to never stop looking at eBay for deals. If you can up your budget by a hundred or two, you'll have no trouble getting a GL2 or VX2000. And www.epinions.com is very helpful as well.

Let us know what you get!

Steve,

I can't think of a better opening response to such a broad question that I have posed. I'll admit however that I have never been one to buy 'used' that's why I'm still broke as a convict. :-)

The models you listed give me lots to study.

I'll be sure to let you know what I get.

Thank you.

Steve Sawchuk says he read all the reviews and it appears that he was able to make a decision based on what he read. I too have read a lot of reviews and have concluded that, while they may help you focus on some possibilities and learn what is available, only seeing actual results is the basis for a decision.

For example, I have just evaluated an Optura 10 which has very good reviews. The performance, by my standards, was very poor.

I think the opinions of the more experienced members of this forum should take precedence over reading reviews. The final decision should be based on seeing actual results.

I'm shopping for a camcorder too. Besides high quality video and reasonable quality stills, I want a camera that is not too heavy. The Sony DCR-PC-330 was recommended by an "pro" at Keebles in Palo Alto. I've had a chance to shoot some stills in the store and they were excellent. I have not had a chance to do any taping.

<<<-- Originally posted by Bill Lapson : Steve Sawchuk says he read all the reviews and it appears that he was able to make a decision based on what he read. I too have read a lot of reviews and have concluded that, while they may help you focus on some possibilities and learn what is available, only seeing actual results is the basis for a decision.

For example, I have just evaluated an Optura 10 which has very good reviews. The performance, by my standards, was very poor.

I think the opinions of the more experienced members of this forum should take precedence over reading reviews. The final decision should be based on seeing actual results.
-->>>

Oh, you're absolutely right. I'm just in the middle of somewhere that doesn't have a camera shop nearby with the higher end models, so I'm forced to trust the internet.

Myself, I like taking into account both factors. When you read reviews such as those on epinions.com, you hear the small things that you would never think about -- and probably wouldn't read here. It's helped me to read the opinions on here, and the reviews elsewhere. Still, after weeks of research, I have yet to make a decision.

But this isn't my thread :)

Steve,

I wish you had not mentioned that Canon XL1s. I went to a local camera dealer and he pretty much sold me on this camera. Once you get into this caliber of camera there really is no longer any question of the quality. It's there in spades.

Can I use you as a credit reference? : )

It looks light. 2 lbs. 7 ounces?

One critical question, however. Does it come with software that allows you to 'capture' it to your PC and then encode it with Clipstream software? Keith Loh, are you there?

The local camera dealer told me that our local NBC affiliate uses the Canon SL1s in their news/weather helicopter and that the local narcotics police just purchased one for surveillance shots, i.e., it's zoom capability is awesome. It can reach out there and touch you.

Man, what a camera!

Jim, you might want to stand back a bit and look a little deeper before pulling out the credit card ;-) On June 25 you told us that you're brand new to DV and want to spend $1,500 or less. And now on the 27th you're in love, and ready to spend over $3,200!

I am not in any way saying that this ISN'T the camera for you, but if it is then you should be able to define which specific features make it more suited than a ~$2,000 camera like the VX-2100, GL-2, PDX-10 or DVC-30. Or how about another $3,200 camera like the PD-170, the DVX-100a for $3,500 or the HD-10u that shoots in hi-def for $2,900? (all prices from B&H Photo (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?)) Have you looked at these other models? Do you understand the differences?

You said the goal is to make videos to put online. Those are usually rendered at low resolution and heavily compressed; do you think someone will be able to tell the difference between a $2,000 and $3,000 camera? Or for that matter, will a single chipper or 1/6" 3-chip camera be good enough? Lots of options there that would fit your original budget.

I think you need to sit back, take a deep breath, relax and do your "due diligence" - you were awfully quick to discard your original budget and replace it with one that was more than twice as large (maybe you should run for congress ;-). If "around $1,500 or less" was really your number then you shouldn't even be looking at the XL-1s. And even though you say you don't need any accessories, I find that hard to believe. There's always "one more thing" that you realize you need. Wide/telephoto lenses, filters, carrying cases, zoom contollers, wireless mikes, additional hard drives, editing software, file compression utilities, a production monitor, extra batteries... the list is endless.

So before you go any further I think you at least need to define a real budget and stick with it. Then you need to understand all the different options available to you within that budget. Happy shopping, but don't rush things.

Boyd,

I don't deserve such good advice but I'm going to take it anyway. I'm taking a deep breath and I will think long and hard on this.

One feature I see in this camera that I REALLY like is the zoom lense capability. If I'm understanding this camera's true capability it has can go places I want to go and can't currently.

What do you think of the Canon XL1s?

Thank you. I've got more questions but it will take some time for me to formulate them.

Hi Jim. I have not used the XL-1s, but I'm sure I would be more than happy with it personally. ~3 years ago I narrowed my choice down to the XL-1, PD-150 and VX-2000. I decided to go for the PD-150, but it was such a hot item back then that nobody had them in stock and there was long wait. I opted for the VX-2000, mainly because the XL-1 just seemed a little big and heavy, and I wanted a flip-out LCD screen.

If zoom is a big deal for you then maybe the GL-2 would be worth looking at, it has a 20x lens and is $1,000 less. But you'd still be well beyond your $1,500 budget. Maybe a smaller camera with a 2x telephoto adaptor would serve just as well?

As you formulate specific questions you should search, or just browse through the appropriate camera forums here for answers. Then pose your questions there if you're still confused. That way you'll get feedback from actual owners of the model(s) you're considering.

Boyd,

I'm following your advice. Many thanks.

1- Zoom: When you are zoomed in and shooting handheld, the image will be very shaky. IMO this is highly distrating and one of the more frequent low budget mistakes.

If you have a tripod and a locked off shot, then you will not get any shakiness. If you have to do camera moves while zoomed in, then you will need a good (typically expensive) tripod to avoid shakiness or 'sticktion' on the tripod.

2- This may be the wrong forum to place this post in and if so I apologize but my goal is to shoot 'DV for the masses' a la Michael Moore's Farenheit 9/11, i.e., documentaries.
Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine was shot on HD. I'm guessing Fahrenheit 9/11 was shot on HD.

Glenn,

Good info on the shaking. I didn't even know what HD stood for but found a link with some good info at:

http://videoexpert.home.att.net/artic3/262hdvr.htm

Technology is something else. There is at least one thing I'm sure of: MiniDV.

Just sharing my impressions with y'all as a rookie. I've discovered the XL2 and all the talk surrounding its release. This video stuff is indeed a world unto itself.

You should definitely check out the new Panasonic DVC30. I have just bought one a week or so ago and it is a sweet camera. It is made out of metal and has a very solid construction. This was one of the big reasons I did not get a GL2 (its made of plastic). The DVC30 also has a fantastically controllable 16x zoom lens (from wide to tele in 1 to 100 seconds!!!). It also has frame mode and cine gamma settings for extra possibilities.

If you need low light reach get a sony vx2100 (or pd150/170 if you can afford). IMO forget about a GL2, sure it can produce some great video, but the DVC30 has as many features and more and is only a bit more expensive - still less than the sony.

Seen as though you are quite new to video the XL1s (and XL2 when released), and Panasonic DVX100a might be a bit of a steep learning curve - not to mention a significant price jump above the cams already mentioned.

The sony PDX10 is also a camera you should think about. It has one of the best widescreen modes in this price range, native XLR inputs for pro sound, but isn't great in low light.

The choice is yours ;)

Dave,

How much does that metal camera weigh? This choice it too complicated already. I'm going to go with a Sony or Canon because I'm not much of a leader. I prefer to follow the pack. ;-)

Even though it is metal (magnesium alloy) the DVC30 only weighs about the same as the GL2, and fits perfectly balanced in the hand.

The Panasonic has 3 1/4" CCDs like the GL2, so low light and picture quality is about the same.

If you want to shoot docs and your decision has come down to either a Sony or a Canon I'd either go with the VX2100 for its bigger 1/3" CCDs and better low light range or wait a couple of weeks to see if a new Canon model is announced. As an XL2 looks just round the corner, maybe a 'GL3' will be too...

Dave,

Real good. Your logic resonates with me. One thing I've determined that I don't like in the XL-1S is that it has no viewfinder.

Dumb question #999. Can you 'effectively' use a viewfinder when zooming in from far away or does that require an eye-piece?

They used to teach people how to swim where I grew up by throwing them in the water. My approach to life is similar. I just jump in. I know it's not pretty but I keep on strokin'. : )

You know the XL-1S doesn't look that good to me anymore. RE: no viewfinder, heavy and a new model is about to be released. I don't suppose the VX2100 is similar, i.e., a new Sony just around the corner? How long has the VX2100 been out?

Jim, the swimming analogy has one problem. I'm sure somebody was waiting on the shore to keep you from drowning. Don't assume this is the case with camera shopping. You could end up a lot poorer and have the wrong camera with nobody but yourself to blame. Learn to swim before you jump off that cliff into the ocean.

The XL-1s does have a viewfinder, but it lacks a flip-out LCD screen. Maybe you have your terminology confused?

New models are introduced by manufacturers with little warning. And years in advance you will read lots of posts speculating on what the new models will feature and when they are arriving. This can be a fun game but is rarely accurate and isn't particularly useful. And even after a new model is announced it takes months before you can actually buy one and then there are the inevitable bugs that will pop up. Being an early adopter of anything high-tech is not for the faint of heart; you can get burned.

Be sure that you understand what you're buying, and be sure it meets your present needs. Then don't look back. But FWIW, the VX-2100 was just introduced a few months ago. However many people were disappointed that it doesn't represent much of an improvement over the VX-2000 which has been around for a long time.

I believe that the VX-2100, PD-170, PDX-10 and many (if not most?) of the better cameras have a metal body, but the outer shell is plastic. But is there some reason you should care? Don't buy into hype like this from the manufacturers. If you're looking at a specific model - like the GL-2 - do your research and find out if it's well made or if it's prone to breakage. If it isn't then who cares what it's made from? Some types of plastic may actually be stonger than the metal that other manufacturers use.

And you still don't seem to have resolved the question of what your budget really is for this purchase. If you can only afford a Hyundai then you simply shouldn't be test driving Mercedes...

Boyd,

>Originally posted by Boyd Ostroff : Jim, the swimming analogy has one problem. I'm sure somebody was waiting on the shore to keep you from drowning.<

Lol. That's funny and clever.

>Don't assume this is the case with camera shopping. You could end up a lot poorer and have the wrong camera with nobody but yourself to blame. Learn to swim before you jump off that cliff into the ocean.<

My ambition is to change the world with video. Ergo, I wanted to buy the best camera with the latest technology.

>The XL-1s does have a viewfinder, but it lacks a flip-out LCD screen. Maybe you have your terminology confused?<

Yep. I meant flip out LCD.

>New models are introduced by manufacturers with little warning. And years in advance you will read lots of posts speculating on what the new models will feature and when they are arriving. This can be a fun game but is rarely accurate and isn't particularly useful. And even after a new model is announced it takes months before you can actually buy one and then there are the inevitable bugs that will pop up. Being an early adopter of anything high-tech is not for the faint of heart; you can get burned. <

Agree. This is why I'm focusing in on the VX2100 now.

>Be sure that you understand what you're buying, and be sure it meets your present needs. Then don't look back. But FWIW, the VX-2100 was just introduced a few months ago. However many people were disappointed that it doesn't represent much of an improvement over the VX-2000 which has been around for a long time.<

Understood.

>I believe that the VX-2100, PD-170, PDX-10 and many (if not most?) of the better cameras have a metal body, but the outer shell is plastic. But is there some reason you should care? Don't buy into hype like this from the manufacturers. If you're looking at a specific model - like the GL-2 - do your research and find out if it's well made or if it's prone to breakage. If it isn't then who cares what it's made from? Some types of plastic may actually be stonger than the metal that other manufacturers use.<

Excellent information.

>And you still don't seem to have resolved the question of what your budget really is for this purchase. If you can only afford a Hyundai then you simply shouldn't be test driving Mercedes... <

I've always had champagne taste and a beer drinker's budget.

Okay, thanks to Boyd and others I'm starting to get the picture. I'm slow but I'm not stupid. IOW, I'm not going to throw away money and that's what I've decided I would be doing by purchasing an XL-1S or any other $4,000 camera.

I went to the only two high end camera dealers in town this afternoon. One sells only Canons and the other only Sony's. I left the Canon store first leaning towards a GL2 and I left the Sony dealer leaning towards a VX2100. Which one is better? GL2 versus VX2100? Steve, have you made any determination is this regard?

The Sony dealer actually had a VX2100, one, in stock, very nice camera. Light, easy to handle, features look good, great zoom. FYI, I'm not going to be into swapping out a bunch of lenses.

I like to embrace an idea at least intellectually and try it on for size and see if it fits. Thanks to y'all I have a much keener sense of what I 'need.' I have not ruled out dropping back to a $1500 Canon type camera, e.g., oputura xi. Why should I buy the GL2 or the VX2100 versus the optura xi?

My personal opinion, having used only two of the three cameras mentioned, those being the GL2 and the Optura Xi, is that the difference is the picture quality. Not so much between the VX2100 and GL2, but the VX2100/GL2 versus the Optura. In other words, the Optura just doesn't look as good.

I played around with the GL2 at a local store, and then picked up the Optura Xi. I could immediately tell the difference between the two, and that was the quality. Now, I didn't get a chance to do any editing of the video or plug it into a TV to see it full-size, but it just seemed that the Xi was dull and the GL2 was broadcast-quality.

The Sony VX2100 I've only read about. The things I've read have led me to believe that this is the camera to have in this price range. Aside from its low light capabilities, it also has a zoom ring, which is something the GL2 doesn't have - in case you didn't notice that. All comparisons aside, they'll both produce excellent quality footage, and be equally fun to use. I've been experimenting with Sony cameras for years, and I know that I trust the brand, and have read only good things about the camcorders they've previously produced.

So, the decision is ultimately up to you (of course), but I will be going with the Sony, myself.

That is, until there is an XL2 ;)

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Sawchuk :
That is, until there is an XL2 ;) -->>>
That's a $4500 camera, right? And like Boyd said, even after they announce it, the XL2 will not be available for a month or so. I have immediate recording requirements.

As I type this, I'm leaning towards the VX2100.

Thank y'all.

I've been researching just like you about the differences/avantages in the Canon GL2 and the Sony VX2100. Really, I've come to conclusion that the GL2 has a higher zoom and the VX2100 has better low light capabilities, so basically it comes down to which feature is more important to you and which camera feels comfortable to you. Now, I'm no expert, but really both cameras will give you the same picture quality if you set the scene up right, adjust the manual settings right etc. So, in your case, if your mainly shooting documentry's, short films and what not, I would lean towards the VX2100, just because it is newer technology(which isn't always good ;) ), and has better low light capabilities. Just my 2 cents. ;)

Jake, I agree with your assessment completely. I had it down to zoom and low light too as well as new technology and the VX2100. I would only add the Sony brand name to the list from my rookie and brainwashed perspective. I anguish over this because I'm a dang perfectionist and I want both low light and zoom. Alas, the world is not perfect. ;-)

How far can you go with a 12x optical? As one example, I want to be able to pull over on the side of the interstate, whip out my camera and record what whoever is doing doing on the other side.

And what about extended warranty? Yea or nay? And carrying case? Hard?

I notice B&H has a consumer and professional category where the DCR-VX2100 is listed in both categories? Is there a consumer DCR-VX2100 and a professional DCR-VX2100?

I could probably get by with less of a camera but I'm going to err on the side of over capacity and purchase the VX2100.

Who do you recommend I purchase this camera from?

The PD-170 is the "pro" version of the VX-2100 and is sold through Sony's broadcast/professional division (http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Professional/webapp/ModelInfo?m=0&sm=0&p=2&sp=11&id=71949). The fact that B&H lists it with the pro cameras may reflect their opinion of it's quality, but Sony has positioned these two cameras a little differently. The PD-170 has pro audio features, records in DVCAM mode and has a black and white high resolution viewfinder.

Also, regarding the GL-2 there are a couple other significant differences. The GL-2 has 1/4" chips as compared to the Sony's 1/3" chips. Probably the most significant thing here is the low light response, but some people feel Sony's larger chips offer other advantages. The GL-2 also features frame movie mode which gives more if a "film like" quality when used. It is similar to the DVX-100's progressive scan, but doesn't offer as high a resolution. Do a search here on "frame" and you will find lots of discussion. Many Canon users are very fond of this shooting mode (also found on the XL-1s) and the VX-2100 doesn't have anything comparable.

Where to buy?.... from one of DVinfo's sponsors, like B&H. A full list may be found here: http://www.dvinfo.net/sponsors/index.php

Boyd,

You up my anguish in not being able to have it all by mentioning the GL-2's "film like" quality. I would love to have it but the VX2100 still seems to trump the GL-2 from my perspective.

I think you said a few posts ago to make your decision and don't look back. I'm about to do that.

VX2100.

Thank you.

BTW, why doesn't such a large forum as this have the latest release of vBulletin?

P.S. I'm still willing to be talked into the GL-2 or . . . ;-)

Okay, I'm about to take the big plunge and purchase a VX2100 from B&H.

How do you recommend I make the purchase if there is an option to purchase on-line or on the phone?

BTW, what 'one' tape do you recommend using?

<<<-- Originally posted by Jim Giles : I think you said a few posts ago to make your decision and don't look back.

I think you missed the point and you're taking this out of context. That remark meant that after you've purchased a new camera, don't get upset when a new model comes out a couple months later that is cooler/cheaper/better. I certainly didn't mean to blindly charge ahead and make an ill-informed big purchase and then not regret it!

<<<-- Originally posted by Jim Giles : BTW, why doesn't such a large forum as this have the latest release of vBulletin?

I believe Chris has that in the works.

B&H has a terrific website if you like shopping online. If you don't feel it answers your questions you can always call.

The tape question is frequently discussed in the Long Black Line forum.

Boyd,

Do you use only one tape and if so which one?

I've been using the Sony Premium tapes in the VX-2000 and PDX-10 for the past 3 years without problem. But you really should sample the opinions of others over at the tape forum.

Boyd,

I got some Sony Premium tape today. The salesman suggested that I fast forward to the end of the tape and then rewind to the beginning to 'ensure' there was no slack in the tape. Have you ever heard of doing this? Is it necessary? He said something about if there was slack in the tape that it could damage your camera or something like that.

Also, do you record only once on your tape or multiple times?

Doing that to the tape ensures even tension throughout, so you're less likely to get glitches/dropouts. Most people only rarely experience them, so I wouldn't waste time doing it. Also, 1 dropout does not affect quality much and is easily photoshopped out. Audio dropouts cannot be fixed but 1 should be ok.

2- I'd record once since recycling tapes increases the risk you'll overwrite an entire tape, which would be many times more disasterous than a dropout IMO.

Thanks Glenn. Sounds just right.

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Sawchuk : My personal opinion, having used only two of the three cameras mentioned, those being the GL2 and the Optura Xi, is that the difference is the picture quality. Not so much between the VX2100 and GL2, but the VX2100/GL2 versus the Optura. In other words, the Optura just doesn't look as good.

I played around with the GL2 at a local store, and then picked up the Optura Xi. I could immediately tell the difference between the two, and that was the quality. Now, I didn't get a chance to do any editing of the video or plug it into a TV to see it full-size, but it just seemed that the Xi was dull and the GL2 was broadcast-quality.

Steve... I have tried out several Optura camcorders including the Xi. I think the user interface and construction are superb in all models. The still shots are ok to very bad. Autofocus is slow. The video is good. I decided not to get an Optrura Xi which, as you might know, was discontinued this past week.