I'm looking for a good wireless setup and Lectrosonic seems to be very good. Anyone with a setup like this with any feedback? Which model should I be looking at? I'm just looking for something basic but reliable with good audio. Something I could use a wireless lav with or plug into a mixing board to get a audio feed.

It would be hard to get any better performance or reliability. I've used them for years, in ENG and EFP. None better in my opinion.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jeff Donald : It would be hard to get any better performance or reliability. I've used them for years, in ENG and EFP. None better in my opinion. -->>>

Jeff,

What model are you using and what can I expect to pay for a Lectrosonic setup?

Check out this link and scroll down to the 100 series. I'm assuming that you're shooting DV. If not, find the series that best fits your rig. Once you find the one you want, go to somewhere like B&H and find out how much. I think the 100 series will cost around 1200.00 - 1500.00. I agree that it's the best plug and play system out there, well worth it.

www.lectrosonics.com/wireless/wireless.htm

Paul, I've used almost every model they make at one time or another. I worked in broadcast for a while and Lectrosonics was all we used. I currently own 100 and 400 series units. I'v owned 200 series in the past.

We've been using the Lavs and the "cubes" for over 10 years, under all kinds of adverse conditions. They are the true workhorses in our audio arsenal and are still going strong today. The only thing we replace is the occasional mic and/or antenna that falls victim to wear and tear.

We operate the UHF series as well as the VHF, both with very impressive results, atlthough the UHF have been less prone to interference in high RF traffic areas.

RB

Wow, didn't know that Lectrosonic is that expensive. While not that cost prohibitive, what would you all recommend as a close second? Sennheiser? I could pick up two Sennheiser setups for the cost of one Lectrosonic, but I guess you have to pay for quality.

Obviously I didn't buy a PD170 only to purchase a junk and cheap wireless unit for bad audio but I'd like to find a happy medium. Any suggestions?

Can you be more specific? What is your real budget?

Well, I don't REALLY have a budget per se, but I can't help but like the prices of the Sennheisers at $600 to $800 or so. If there is no question in everyones mind that Lectrosonic is lightyears ahead of the Sennheisers, then I'll wait to purchase the Lectrosonic. But if the difference is not all that much, then I'd opt for the Sennheisers.

Obviously I want a quality product that is capable of providing good audio without static, drop outs, interference, etc.

No doubt in my mind, save for the Lectrosonics.

Where is the best and cheapest place to buy Lectrosonic?

I prefer B & H Photo (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/?BI=155), one of our sponsors. (http://www.dvinfo.net/sponsors/index.php)

Audio-Technica makes an excellent wireless system in their U100 wireless, in the same price range as the Sennheiser. The mic uses the same type of balanced connector as the Lectronics, which is technically superior to the unbalanced connectors used in other wireless systems. In my experience, reception is crystal clear and no interference.
Not to complicate your decision, but you should look into the AT. It exceeds your spec for "something basic but reliable with good audio," and is within your budget.

<<<-- Originally posted by Paul Chun :

Obviously I want a quality product that is capable of providing good audio without static, drop outs, interference, etc. -->>>

Hey I'd love to know if ANY of you guys posting here can say that you get wireless audio that meets those criteria?

I have times that my wireless works perfectly... but that's mostly limited to ranges under 100' and it also varies by location and content of the shoot. If I wire up a person (or couple people) and they're just doing a walk and talk then I can easily get audio with zero problems... I guess rather then elaborate a whole lot you can check out this link and tell me if this is normal for a wireless in clear line-of-sight, rainy conditions, suburban (low-to-moderate RF interference issues), 60-250' ranges, turning and sudden motion, etc...

CLICK HERE to see what I got by duck-taping a Lectro VHF into my nephew's football pads... Tram out front in a half a cat "ball-cage" with fake fur packed on. (http://www.gettreel.com/Nephew%20FBall%2032%20kbps%20audio%20Lectro%20VHF.wmv)

I've played with the G2 and I really liked it a lot... but it wasn't really PUSHED at all. I've also played with the AT and that was a good system also... again it was used in a very calm situation at ranges of 50' and closer... Has anybody else pushed the limits of their wireless rigs a bit? Can you either show us an example or at least give details on the situation and what happened?

Like many I am looking for a wireless kit. I have used Lectrosonics for decades in harsh environments
like the roof of a black pickup truck in mid summer New Mexico desert. Sonys failed, so did other cheap kits.

I'm twisting in the wind because the cost is high for the Lectrosonic kit. Now you know where my head is.

Having said the above, I'm going to "suck it up cowboy", and rent, until I can afford the Lectro kit.
It is soooo worth doing it that way, rather than wasting money on anything else.
Yes even Sennheiser or Sony.

The guys who wrote earlier are right...buy a Lectrosonics...Networks...Military...Indies...love love love 'em.

Lectro has been around for a very long time and has proven itself to be high quality and reliable. I've used the 100 series extensively and I own six of the 211 systems. I've also used the less expensive Sennheisers, Sonys, and ATs. Under controlled and less extreme conditions they are ok but the Lectros will always out perform them in terms of sound quality and reliability. Consider purchasing used. All of my 211s were purchased used for just a bit more than what the brand new 100 series cost. I use them a lot in adverse circumstances and I honestly don't think the cheaper units would hold up as well.
If you're serious about sound get Lectro or Zaxcom.
Bernie

Since you're relatively new to the wireless mic world, there's another truth you have to face.

NO wireless system, no matter the price or quality will have a superior ability to both sound as good or to be as reliable as a much more inexpensive wired mic.

This is just a simple fact.

At the high end of the wireless world - the sound is impressive and many will say the newest digital units sound "as good" as wired mics. But at a VASTLY greater price. Also, wireless mics have been made far more reliable as new transmission standards and digital encoding has developed - but the NATURE of the transmitter/receiver relationship and the way low power broadcast technology works (wireless mics, are after all, nothing but a low powered radio transmitter and receiver pair) they will ALWAYS be subject to conditions where they may fail.

The reason that the more expensive ones perform better is because these are COMPLEX electronic devices. So at the low end, when you've stripped out the ability to toss money at securing the BEST possible electronic components, circuit designs, noise suppression, and carrier locking tricks - you're left with gear that WILL be susceptible to problems that WILL degrade your audio capture.

In exchange for putting up with that, you gain FREEDOM of movement. Which is nice, but not always necessary.

To me, wireless mics are necessary evils.

Wonderful for what they are. But a pure hassle when they don't do what they're supposed to. And the less money you pay for them - the more often they don't do what they're supposed to.

Such is life.

if you think lectro's are expensive, wait until you try zaxcom.

I have some new G3's, they are not bad at all, but I still like my ancient lectro 195's. hotter RF output always wins for distance, especially in a noisy RF environment. the lectro's are real mic / line level. the G3's are mic level / low line level. the lectro's are metal, with XLR connectors, not 1/8" mini jacks.

Go for a 400 series Lectro system. The advantages are superior sound quality, a stronger and more reliable working range, and best of all - an easy way to scan and actually look at the RF activity in the area.

I own an SRa receiver and two SM series transmitters. They're the iron backbone of my location audio kit.

There you go again Sam giving away the secrets to reliable wireless sound recording. Most people who know what a good radio mic is but don't buy the Lectrosonic 400 series are wary of the upfront cost. Same reason I have stayed away from the Zaxcoms. I did pony up for the Lectro 400's and am very satisfied so I don't see the need to change manufacturers in midstream. By the way a couple of jobs screwed up by poor mic performance can cause you more lost income than you will make by using less expensive radio gear. Think of these kinds of purchases as long term investments. 10 years is not unreasonable amount of time to use a good system. In NY City where I do most of my work the RF environment is so harsh that frequency agile radio systems are practically a necessity. If money is burning a hole in your pocket you can go for more expensive systems but you will be fine if you go with the workhorse Lectros.

Daniel, Sam, I am looking into the Lectrosonic 400 for a upcoming series I am filming. Most of the time we can be wired which I have covered. But for wireless I need to upgrade. I like the water resistant transmitter pack but can't seem to find a dual receiver package at B&H. Also what freq block do you recommend?

Will check with Professional Sound Services today but always nice to have input from field users.

Bill's assessment in # 17 above is pretty much the most succint explanation of my position that I have read in recent history. I suggest EVERYONE bookmark this page in your smart data device and show it to clients who INSIST on using wireless audio, even if the camera and the speaker will NEVER be more than 10' from each other. And I know LOTS!

"There is a saying in Hollywood that the use of wireless microphones is more of a mystic art than it is a science, so use wireless lavs only as an absolute last resort."

Uncle Bob @ Uncle Bob | blog on Myspace (http://www.myspace.com/alcoveaudio/blog)

This guy is a world of audio knowledge from the independent film world.

I like the water resistant transmitter pack but can't seem to find a dual receiver package at B&H.
The SR dual receiver was originally designed for "slot in" cameras, however Lectro has Optional adapter kits are available for external mounting or bag use. If configuring an SR system, consult with a knowledgeable salesperson or Lectro directly. IMO, this is an instance where a smaller shop would advisable to configure your unique set-up. Trew, Gotham, LSC, Coffey, Dale, TAI, ect. (to name a few)
Lectrosonics-SR Dual-Channel Slot Mount Receiver (http://www.lectrosonics.com/hybrid/sr/sr.htm)

Thanks Rick that was right in front of me. The slot works well in my PMW-500 but I don't always use that camera so having the options to pull it and use the adapter kit is nice. Lots to look at for audio on this next job.

Agree I am talking to a couple of small shops that deal only with audio.

Hey Paul,
Frequency Blocks are a little tricky depending on the signals in your area and whether you are planning to travel and use them in another city. I bought all Block 21 units as I knew that higher blocks were going to be outlawed when the spectrum was auctioned off. It was also considered one of the so called travel blocks at the time but these days you never know till you get there what RF issues you are dealing with. They have added Block 19 and Block 20 units to replace the higher blocks they lost access to. I think Lectrosonics has some recommendations about what is good for your area but check with your dealer as they should help with this.
If you go for an unusual block you may find it hard to rent compatible units which may be a concern if you supplement your systems with others and want the same block for switching purposes.

Thanks Daniel,

That is a hard one for me since there is no one place I shoot most of the time.

What is looks like I will do for the first round in this series is try and stay wired. If I do have to go wireless it will be close 3-10 feet where wired just won't work. For this I will stay with my current gear.

A little Lectro wireless advice.

After doing some testing with my Sennheiser G3 100 system they are new only used on 3 jobs and nice but too high a noise floor for me. Also just not built rugged enough, I am worried I will break them. I have decided to make the move to the Lectro 400 series.

I have read about the 400 receivers: UCR411A, UCR401, SR. I do have a slot in my PMW-500 but might not always use that camera for recording. I know I can mount the SR outside the slot but the UCR411A looks like my choice. Is this a dual system? (Answered my own question with their manual, it is single channel receiver) Input from Lectro users appreciated?

I will travel with the system and need to have options with RF.

Transmitter for me looks like the MM400C. I think that looks nice and rugged and never know if it could get wet. I never worry about my camera gear since it is properly covered but you can't count on the talent keeping the transmitter dry. Might also get a HM just in case. Again input from Lectro users appreciated?

Found some answers.

401 vs 411, the 401 is AA batteries with fixed antenna and 411 is removable antennas with 9v batteries. I was told both are same quality which would lead me to the 401 since I prefer AA batteries.

The SR does have a $129 end plate so I could use it on other cameras besides my 500's slot. And this is dual channel. I am leaning this way.

The Countryman B6 was recommended as the mic to go with the MM400c waterproof unit.

A little Lectro wireless advice.

After doing some testing with my Sennheiser G3 100 system they are new only used on 3 jobs and nice but too high a noise floor for me. Also just not built rugged enough, I am worried I will break them. I have decided to make the move to the Lectro 400 series.

I have read about the 400 receivers: UCR411A, UCR401, SR. I do have a slot in my PMW-500 but might not always use that camera for recording. I know I can mount the SR outside the slot but the UCR411A looks like my choice. Is this a dual system? (Answered my own question with their manual, it is single channel receiver) Input from Lectro users appreciated?

I will travel with the system and need to have options with RF.

Transmitter for me looks like the MM400C. I think that looks nice and rugged and never know if it could get wet. I never worry about my camera gear since it is properly covered but you can't count on the talent keeping the transmitter dry. Might also get a HM just in case. Again input from Lectro users appreciated?

I'm surprised you find the G3 noise high - did you set them up right?

Also, it may just be the mic. and a better one would be quieter.

Also, ruggedness is fine with the G3, they are extremely rugged and should take all you throw at them.

Yes, the Lectro are a lot more expensive and may be better, but the difference in ruggedness would not be very great I think.

G3 noise high?
Not as quiet as my 411s but it's never been a problem.
The G2/3 portable receiver will not drive a +4dB input, if someone is trying, it would be quite noisy. The output is un-balanced as well so a short cable should be used. I usually set the receiver's AF output level to -12 or -18 and feed a mic level in.

John I think the MM400c is a lot more rugged then the G3 100 transmitter. As for noise you are right it could mostly be the mic but I was testing in a very dry sound proof room. Maybe I am just expecting too much.

Rick thanks for your setup numbers I was very close so I don't think that is it. John could be right about the mic. Are you happy with the 411s? Which transmitter do you use?

I have a Lectro 411 receiver and SMa transmitter that I use with a Countryman B6 mic. I have used the Sennheiser and I think it sounds fine but my Lectro system is built like a tank and sounds great for wireless. To me it was worth the extra money. It sounds better and the build quality is amazing.

Thanks Mike for your input.

Found some answers.

401 vs 411, the 401 is AA batteries with fixed antenna and 411 is removable antennas with 9v batteries. I was told both are same quality which would lead me to the 401 since I prefer AA batteries.

The SR does have a $129 end plate so I could use it on other cameras besides my 500's slot. And this is dual channel. I am leaning this way.

The Countryman B6 was recommended as the mic to go with the MM400c waterproof unit.

411a's have tracking front ends. The SRa's and the 401's do not. Lectrosonics places the SRa's slightly better than the 401's.

You'll want the 411a's in heavy RF areas.

As for the Sennheiser deal.. They're great start-off systems, but after you compare them to any high-end systemsyou can clearly hear what you're missing out on. Of course the average joe wouldn't be able to tell.

Thanks Jeff I did not know that about the 411a, that makes it a better choice then the SR with all of my traveling.

I have 2 G3's and will never use both at the same time anymore. With both mounted on my EX3, there was severe crackling and what sounded like very loud tv noise. I ended up moving them as far apart as possible which seemed to solve the problem during the interview I was shooting. Btw, I have never had this issue with my 2 Sony's.

HI Steve,

I have not had that problem.

HI Steve,

I have not had that problem.

Hi Paul,

I am hopeful that someone can possibly explain why this happened. For more info, I had one G3 on the front shoe facing backwards and the 2nd G3 on the rear shoe facing forwards. Maybe their antennae cannot be so close to one another?

yes, you probably were on the wrong frequencies. if you custom tuned them almost for sure. within 1 senn bank, all the freq's are safe for use with each other. if you custom tune or use freq's in different banks, this can happen with any wireless, not just senn.

yes, you probably were on the wrong frequencies. if you custom tuned them almost for sure. within 1 senn bank, all the freq's are safe for use with each other. if you custom tune or use freq's in different banks, this can happen with any wireless, not just senn.

One G3 was set to 638.xxx and the other to 639.xxx - I can't recall for certain til I look at them tomorrow for another 2 interviews.

Thanks for the good info here. I have three Sennheiser EW100 kits and I'm told I can't get replacement antenna because they are now "illegal" to use on those frequencies.

So . . . I've been shopping. Trying to find a "just as good" alternative to the Lectrosonics while knowing that the Lectros are really a better value once amortized across a decade.

Now I just have to pony up the almost five grand for a couple of sets.

Tom I was in the same boat and then purchased the G3 100 and am not happy with the units. They do not have enough power for a lot of my jobs. I was told to look at the new Sennheiser 2000 system, they are 1/2 the price of the Lectro systems and have loads of power with more channel options on the 2000.

I was ready to go with the Lectro system then had to leave for a week on a job. Now I am not sure for my next upcoming trip if I will go with the Sennheiser 2000 or Lectro.

Also might be worth looking at the new Rode Lav mic, nice sound and innovative cable option.

Has anyone purchased the 2000 system? Be nice to have feedback.

Thanks for the good info here. I have three Sennheiser EW100 kits and I'm told I can't get replacement antenna because they are now "illegal" to use on those frequencies.

So . . . I've been shopping. Trying to find a "just as good" alternative to the Lectrosonics while knowing that the Lectros are really a better value once amortized across a decade.

Now I just have to pony up the almost five grand for a couple of sets.

Are they G1 or G2?

I know that G2 can be converted to another band - Sennheiser UK certainly do it, but I'm not sure about Sennheiser USA.

Maybe Sennheiser USA do swap-out prices for replacement kit that would work out at the same price.


Tom I was in the same boat and then purchased the G3 100 and am not happy with the units. They do not have enough power for a lot of my jobs. I was told to look at the new Sennheiser 2000 system, they are 1/2 the price of the Lectro systems and have loads of power with more channel options on the 2000.

I was ready to go with the Lectro system then had to leave for a week on a job. Now I am not sure for my next upcoming trip if I will go with the Sennheiser 2000 or Lectro.

Also might be worth looking at the new Rode Lav mic, nice sound and innovative cable option.

Has anyone purchased the 2000 system? Be nice to have feedback.

Power isn't everything.

The IBS did a range test at Pinewood studios recently - the one that came out with the best range was the bog-standard Sennheiser G3.

The Lectros were crackling and dropping out, as also did the Audio Ltd. (which I would have expected to have the best range) - the winner was the G3.

John I am very aware power is not everything but on some jobs it is very important. My G3 100 cut out very close distance and crack at even a closer distance.

I find it hard to believe that the G3 100 at 30mW can out perform the 2000 at 100mW and the Lectros at 250mW with range. Can you send a link to that test?

John I am very aware power is not everything but on some jobs it is very important. My G3 100 cut out very close distance and crack at even a closer distance.

I find it hard to believe that the G3 100 at 30mW can out perform the 2000 at 100mW and the Lectros at 250mW with range. Can you send a link to that test?

Let's see the data. I highly doubt the G3 could out perform Audio LTD or Lectros.

John I am very aware power is not everything but on some jobs it is very important. My G3 100 cut out very close distance and crack at even a closer distance.

Sounds to me like there is interference on the channel you are using, or your units may have damaged antennas (not always visible) or some other problem. Or maybe we should define "close". I find that even the battery powered receiver works like wire from 0 to 50 feet-IF there is line of sight and there are no other issues present. If you are not achieving this I suggest there is a problem somewhere.

I love the power comparisons. In RF you must SQUARE the power to double your distance of coverage (all other things being equal of course). So to double the coverage of the "lowly" sennheiser you'd need 900mW...you'll get much better gains from interference free channels and better placement between units. I find 30mW to be quite useful IMHO.

I demoed AT and Sony diversity systems before I bought my G2 units, and the non-div G2 did MUCH better. I now own over 20 G2 and G3 systems...you can't beat them for the price.

To the OP, the lectro units with tracking are superb, I use them all the time too (but don't actually own any) and have never been disappointed. I really like the venue rack system. If my G2's didn't work so well they'd be the next step up the ladder for me. maybe someday...

Good point on the power must be squared to double the distance.

I am OK up to 40-50' if there is no interference. But we are using outboard motors and they are a pain to work around. Also we would like to get 150' if possible.

I spend a lot of time at each new location dialing in my G3. The extra channels on the 2000 interest me. The 30mW on the G3 is top power from the transmitter. I know the receiver is lower but not sure how much, I was told 12mW but have not confirmed that number. Also with all of my years using VHF radios when you go from 5W for hand held to 25W for base you have a huge gain in distance. That is with the hand held hooked up to a base antenna.

Antennas seem fine but like you say they could break and you would not know. Be nice if they could be replaced. That is one more feather in the cap for the Lectros.

My units receive hard use and I don't think the G3 is tough enough for me but will have to do for at least one more trip.

Ok then, good info. A few observations if you don't mind my ramblings. :-)

Outboard motors seem like they would give off a lot of EMI when running. Could be part of your issue, you'd need a spectrum analyzer to be sure.

If you are on a boat while shooting another boat, use some XLR to get your receiver off the camera and as high as possible. Put it up on a pole or something. If on land, use that cable to place the receiver closer to the guy wearing the transmitter and close the distance between the two, but remember to keep it as high as possible.

Also, make sure to do your homework for frequencies. Use the sennheiser freq finder site and antennaweb.org to research DTV broadcasters and stay clear of their frequencies. One of the probs with analog receivers is that when you scan for open channels they DO NOT see digital broadcasts, so they may report the freq is open when there is indeed activity there. Stay away from DTV channels, you are competing with many THOUSANDS of watts when it come to broadcast.

I would not expect to get 150' from stock ENG mics, even a lectro with the stock antennas. I'm not saying its not possible, just not expected. Higher gain antennas with higher placement (higher above ground) can get you better range. Using the rack mount true diversity receiver, two directional high gain antennas, and signal filters/boosters can give you over 1000' of usable range-even with the G2 30mW transmitter. I know because I run this very setup for broadcast applications, and this is one of the instances where my 30mW setup beats even 250mW ENG units with stock antennas and no diversity.

You are misinformed concerning your comment about receiver power (sorry). The only power rating a receiver will have is for energy consumption, nothing to do with range. Sensitivity and selectivity are the biggie specs for a receiver, and the portable ones are never as good as say a rack mount receiver. Your VHF radio scenario worked better because you hooked up a base antenna to your handheld...higher antenna placement and higher gain in the antenna itself...your 25W base probably had better receiver specs than the handheld too.

On to the 2000 series, the next level up from the G3 line. More channels is a good thing these days. The receivers are more sensitive as well. You get what you pay for with RF. Senn also has a 3000 and 5000 series, some over $7,000usd per channel. Check out Broadcast Sports Inc., They use to use 5000 series stuff (250mW TX power) on the golf tournaments for NBC/CBS/TGC and cover a whole golf course (they now use custom TX units in the 1.4GHz range, but follow me here). That transmitter has a high gain antenna mounted to a headset the talent wears so its up in the air with clean line of sight to the other end, not hidden under a shirt or behind the body so you don't see it. They also use custom antennas (directional with VERY high gain) hung over 200 feet in the air to receive with and may use several sites to do so...see a pattern here? :-) More TX power will help, but it's certainly not everything...

Thanks Greg for the ideas and excellent input.

Did not think the receiver was accurate so thanks for putting me straight on that one.

Running out the door but will look your post over in detail tomorrow. I might have a few questions if you don't mind.