Jim: From what I've seen so far, it looks very good!

Jim,

I can't seem to access the grain reference image. Help? :)

Jim and Frank.

When I was talking about using PVC wood glue (the white stuff water washable) to hold the foil, I might have confused you. I only glued the foil to one piece of glass and only with tack spots. I didn't use a continuous rim of foil. I only used small squares. To keep them immobile until the glue set, I rolled them over the edge of the glass and trimmmed them off later.

By this method you can place your pieces of glass in the wax separately and get the bubbles off before bring them together. If there are air inclusions, just lift one glass away and repeat bringing them together. After you have got a good inclusion, sit your composite disk on top of a metal thimble or something just under the surface of your wax pot so you can gouge it out of the mix after it gels but before it goes really hard. Take care because the disks will separate if you go at it too soon.

Sorry I did not tell you sooner but I thought you were both already doing thin layers and had gone to thicker layers to solve some sort of problem.

<<<-- Originally posted by Aaron Shaw : Jim,

I can't seem to access the grain reference image. Help? :) -->>>

me too!

but i normally downloaded the movie, which is (the movie) btw very exiting.

jim - OT - i can see that you have a lot of marvelous films on your shelve :)

filip

Sorry about that, the correct url for the grain pattern image is: http://ideaspora.net/grainless/grain_pattern.png

- jim

I've contacted S&P for another 1lb block of wax -- mine has gone through so many reheats and has been left in less than optimally clean areas, so I'm looking to get another block next week.

In the meantime, I've gone through not one but two thick-walled glass jars that were originally used for pickling -- after a series of reheats at 350+ degrees, they eventually cracked at the bottom, leaking wax into their surrounding dishes. So, I've done a little research and for anyone following along, I will be ordering a borosilicate beaker.

Here are links to where they can be ordered -- American Science Surplus has them for the least amount:

http://www.sciplus.com/category.cfm?subsection=4

http://www.scientificsonline.com/product.asp?cs=p&pn=3082326

http://www.hometrainingtools.com/catalog/chemistry/glassware-plasticware/cat_beakers-flasks.html

600ml should be large enough, is my guess...

The screw compressor clamp found here might be a good alternative to tape? :

http://www.sciplus.com/category.cfm?subsection=4&category=44

Keep on keepin' on -- happy new year, everyone!

- jim

Compression might be a problem for you as the glass yields then remembers that which it once was when you release the pressure. The wax layer may separate or if there is a depression some distance in which binds the glass distortion, you may get a localised area of greater transparency.

If you have time to experiment, try making a gg which has the full thickness of spacer on one edge and face to face contact on the other. The best thickess for wax should be apparent as a straight area across the gg. I did this fairly roughly for my wax composite disks with microscope slides but I didn't refine it any furthur than arriving at one thickness of cooking foil being best for me.

If you can mike the thickness of your spacer material, then measure across the gg to the best area and calculate that value as a fraction of the thickness of the widest part of the layer which you know.

That fraction is found by measuring from the directly contacting edge total (= 0) directly across to the point on the gg where the layer performs best.

Then you should be able to calculate the ideal wax layer thickness. It may be possible to find some shim metal from a precision machine shop which is that thickness for your permanent spacer.

I failed maths from year 5 onwards but it should go something like this as an example, assuming you have a 52mm diameter gg.

Measured across gg :-

Left Edge Layer Thickness - full contact = 0mm.
Right Edge Layer Thickness - spacer = 0.25mm.

Left Edge to best gg = 13.5mm.
Left Edge to right edge (width) = 52mm.

Divide 52mm by 13.5mm. Should = 1/4.
Divide 0.25mm by 1/4. Should = ideal layer.

Just got note of B&H having more F-to-C mount adapters in stock -- with this and a bunch of new tools, I'm gearing up to do the microwax adapter right. I'll have some stuff up end of next week, if all goes well.

- jim

Hi Jim, Thanks for all your work on the wax method. I've been tweeking my process little by little and feel I'm getting there but am still getting the tiny bubbles in the wax appearing. How have you gotten around this?

Also do you have a link to that F-C Mount part on the B&H site? I'm guessing it adapts from the threading of a 52/58mm filter ring to a typical camera lens mount? That would be superb if it were true as its the one part of the equation that I haven't figured out.

Thanks

Jon

Jonny,

I have found the best method for making a wax-free glass is not to let the wax fill in between the glass, but to put the two separate pieces together under the melted wax, with a spacer inbetween. This is my new way of working, thanks to recommendations by others, and I find it is very effective in getting a clean glass.

The problem would be with keeping the spacer inbetween the glass and keeping the two pieces of glass in alignment.

I happened to have a round metal piece (came off the front of a Pentax lens) that my glass pieces would fit in perfectly.

I put the stuff in the wax, inserting it sideways to prevent bubbles, in the following order:


- Round 'holding' piece
- First glass
- Spacer
- Second glass
- Weight


The spacer can be aluminum strips, although they would be hard to work with under liquid. In my case, I had a round, thin metal strip from a Mamiya camera (taken from between the screw-mount and the camera body).
You could, however, wrap a bigger piece of aluminum around the glass, folding a couple of strips over the side
for spacers.

The weight needs to be as close as possible to the diameter of the glass, so that the pressure is equally distributed.

I still don't feel like I have the best workflow, but when/if I develop it into a smooth process, I would be willing to take pictures and make a tutorial.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/sitem/sku=77558&is=REG&bi=E15

Not quite sure how it would be fitted for a screw-on type mount -- I glued my last two in place :D

- jim

I worked with a company that employed a polymer scientist. He was working on molding high performance plastics. He developed a process of molding at the melt temp, and then spraying the outside of the mold with liquid nitrogen (very cold). His goal was to get the plastic to crystalize as quickly as possible because he said it would create the smallest possible crystalites.

My though was, as an experiment, you could take a glass/wax/glass GG that's finished, heat it back up till the wax goes clear, and then cool it rapidly, maybe place it between two metal plates that you chilled in the freezer. If small crystalites = fine grain, might be interesting.

Could be an interesting experiment! I have access to some LN2 so I may give this or something similar a try!

Donnie,

I could be wrong, but I think that the two are different -- plastic is a chemical that when submitted to shocking temperature changes, might form "crystalites" -- microcrystalline wax has actual bits of crystal suspended in the emulsion.

I doubt such tactics would do good things to glass :/

- jim

"I doubt such tactics would do good things to glass :/"

I dont think that a quick temperature change would do anything to glass. I think it may give you finer crystals as the wax crystalizes. Just a thought for an easy experiment.

Jim,
I see what you are saying. I'm not sure about the "microcrystalline" part... They may be adding some type of silica crystals that would not melt at the low temperatures that wax melts, so you'd be right, those crystals are of definite size and shape and couldn't be changed without exceeding their melt point. But the wax itself forms crystals, as it goes from liquid to solid, regardless of what may be suspended in the solution. So maybe keeping those wax cyrstals as small as possible via a rapid cool down would help?

hi. I haven't posted on this thread before, but I'm currently working on a 35mm lens adapter for my Canon Xl1s. I have been following the posts about microcystalline wax and I just had a few questions. I'm assuming by the thread that people are making these wax GG pieces in attepts to come up with something similar to the bosscreen product. Is that correct? I was just wondering if anyone has actually tried an actual gg from from bosscreen? I was checking out their site and the glass doesn't seem cheap, but I was wondering if someone had tried that and that's what started the idea about the microcrystaline wax or was it the movietube, since it seems like it uses so combination of wax and glass as GG?

I just contacted a place local to me that is supposed to do custom blends of wax to find out what they have that might work. Also I'm going to look next time I'm near there, but there is something call Micro Wax which is an additive for candle making. (my girlfriend used to make candles before moving on to soaps). From what I understand the Micro Wax is microcrytalline wax. I wonder if anyone has tried this? It can be found at most craft stores. In the US places like Jo-Ann Fabrics and Michael's. I don't know how the costs compare to the places online, but I just thought it might be another option.

I'm looking forward to trying to make my own wax GG sometime soon and I was wondering if anyone else has been making any progress on them.

Hi Keith!

I haven't heard of a Micro Wax additive, but next time I'm at Michael's I'll see if I can find it. Would be nice if they carried it - I'd like to have a local supplier since I'm running low on the free sample and I don't like to keep asking for more. (And a minimum purchase order is like 50 LBS or so.)

What got me started with microcrystalline wax was the MovieTube description on MovieTube.com that mentioned a "special developed microcrystalline grain screen".

I'm not sure if they use microcrystalline wax specifically, but I can tell you that it is an excellent material for static adapters. I don't think ground glass, no matter what grit used, could be as grain-free as microcrystalline.

The difficulty is getting a bubble-free, debris-free layer between two pieces of glass, and getting a layer of the right thickness so that you don't lose a lot of light. A lot of us do-it-yourselfers are limited in tools, so there is really no automated process.

I'm not certain, but I would bet any micro wax that you're going to find at a hobby shop is actually a blended wax that has a very low melting point -- it basically comes out of a canister looking/feeling like an opaque-white vaseline. It's used to blend with oil paints to make the paint last longer without cracks, or for rubbing into the surfaces of wood as a preserving varnish.

I purchased a bit a while back and it doesn't work.

However, I could be guessing completely wrong -- I know that Pearl art stores do in fact carry blocks of solid micro wax -- only it's not bleached, and is a very deep brown.

I've been meaning to get back to my adapter progress but with friends and family visiting and my current job situation being shifted around, I haven't had the time for a good night's sleep let alone to work properly on the micro wax screen :(

After next week things will have settled down significantly for me, so sometime around then I hope to make some strides, then post a tutorial, provided things turn out well.

- jim

Thanks for all the info guys. If I remember correctly Michael's had the stuff I'm talking about. Like I said it's been awhile since my girlfriend has used the stuff, but if i remember correctly it's a additive for parafine wax. It's used for candles that will be poured into a container to make the wax stick to the sides of the container. If i remember it looks like white beads of wax and it comes in a little bag. I just did a quick search and came up with this page...

http://candles.genwax.com/candles/___0___Z40M96W.htm

That might give you some more info. I'm gonna try to pick some up to try later today maybe if i get over that way. I'll let you guys know what i find out. I'm still waiting to hear back from the wax supplier I emailed that is local to me to see what they have.

I also have an idea about removing the air bubbles, but I'm not sure if it'll work. I have to contact my friend who does special FX to see if it might work.

I'll fill you guys in if i have any luck. Thanks again for the info.

Keith...any ideas about removing bubbles are welcome! I'm waiting to hear more. :-)

...any ideas about removing bubbles are welcome!

Agreed. I was thinking it might work to use a vaccum sealer for that kinda thing -- the kind you can purchase for food. Who knows how successful it would be, especially with the expense and the dangers of cracking the glass :/

- jim

I've heard mention of a vacuum technique before, and would like to hear more about it as a possible production technique. (Although it would likely be out of my price range. :-) )

Well that's on the right track of what i was thinking actually. My friend does special FX makeup and prop building. He has something used for mixing (foam i think). It's bascially a small vacuum chamber used to remove the air from the foam. I asked him about and said we can try it. We're not sure if it will pull a vacuum that strong, but it'll be worth a try. Generally the foam it's designed for is alot less viscous than even the melted wax, but it's worth a shot. I still haven't made it to a craft place to check out the micro wax, but i'll let everyone know when I do.

Hi there,

There is a little company in Germany which seem to have the knowhow and quite resonable prices to produce screens of the quality we may need. They call their product "glasscreen":

http://www.glasscreen.com

For a spinning 35mm adapter I asked them for the possibility of a glasscreen in shape of a CD. They answered, this would be no problem.


cheers,
martin

Call your local pattern supply company, the places that supply plasters and various molding compounds. Usually, they have industrial bell jar vacuum chambers that are used for evacuating bubbles from plastics and the molding compounds. The place about 5 mins from where I work in Portland charges $10/day.

When I get a spare day to work on this, I'm going to try the following procedure:

Put the bottom piece of glass in a sealing frame
Put the spacer rim on the glass (ouside the viewing area)
Pour in the molten wax
Put in the top piece of glass
While the wax is still molten (put on top of a battery powered peltier cooler/warmer), put on the bell jar and evacuate the pressure. Keep it at 0 bar until the was solidifies.

Like I said, when I get some spare time...

definitely let us know how that turns out!

Yes, definately keep us updated!

<<<-- Originally posted by Martin Diruf : Hi there,

There is a little company in Germany which seem to have the knowhow and quite resonable prices to produce screens of the quality we may need. They call their product "glasscreen":

http://www.glasscreen.com

For a spinning 35mm adapter I asked them for the possibility of a glasscreen in shape of a CD. They answered, this would be no problem.


cheers,
martin -->>>

did you see how much it would cost in $US dollars?

Okay i still haven't had a chance to check the craft stores for they have, but I found a few other places. Tell me how bad this sucks. I found a place that's literally 2 miles from my driveway that makes microcrsytalline wax. really high quality stuff for the rubber and plastics industry. Called them today and they don't sell to the public nor would they even give me a small sample, which i even offered to pay for. Anway the one place I found carries two types and I was wondering if anyone had any input on which might be better. According to the info one is slightly softer and melts at 175F and the other is slightly harder and melts at 195F. My first thought is the higher melting point might be better so the screen doesn't melt, but is there any benefit to having it slightly softer? The only other factor is the way it comes. The Micro 175 comes in an 11 lbs. block and the Micro 195 only comes in bead form... so it'd be a 11 lbs. bag of wax beads. Also getting the vacuum chamber from my friend to see if that will help me aviod bubbles. I'll let you guys know as soon as I get to test out my ideas.

Anyway any input on which of the waxes I should try would be great. Cost wise the block of 175 is cheaper (about $26 shipped/11 lbs.) and the 195 (about $32 shipped/11lbs.) I know that's alot of wax, but I figure I'd rather have way too much than not enough.

I wouldn't worry about the wax melting! 175f is hot!

that's pretty much what i was figuring. I just wasn't sure if there'd be any advantage to it being more or less flexible. I mean since it's going between 2 pieces of glass I guess it wouldn't really matter anyway right? Also where is everyone getting their pieces of glass?

The Strahl and Pitch wax I use is rated with a 96 degree melting point, which means it could possibly melt if left for long periods in the sun on a very hot day, but....I wouldn't do that to my cam anyway.

How you're going to work with 175 rated wax seems a little challenging to say the least :D

- jim

If anyone is really serious about vacuum, I suggest you get a working compressor from a discarded fridge. I made an airbrush compressor out of one, and it works great. I also saw ppl using it for vacuum-forming of foam parts. Just cover the outlet with a sponge or something, to absorb the oil that'll spit out ;)

I've lost references to vacuum-forming, but here's something to give you an idea:

http://clubhyper.com/reference/compressorgi_1.htm and
http://www.old.modelarstwo.org.pl/technika/akcesoria/sprezarka2/index.html - I hope you can read Polish... Nah, just look at the pictures!

<<<-- Originally posted by Keith Kline : I know that's alot of wax, but I figure I'd rather have way too much than not enough. -->>>

hey Keith, you can always SELL this wax to someone like people on this forum... :) maybe this is idea what to do with the rest of it when you finish your GG.

filip

<<<-- Originally posted by Filip Kovcin : <<<-- Originally posted by Keith Kline : I know that's alot of wax, but I figure I'd rather have way too much than not enough. -->>>

hey Keith, you can always SELL this wax to someone like people on this forum... :) maybe this is idea what to do with the rest of it when you finish your GG.

filip -->>>

That's actually what I was thinking. The guy I'm borrowing the vacuum chamber from said he might wants so also, so I'm gonna find out how much he wants and get him to chip in. I figured it out and I can get 11lbs. of the 175 and 11lbs. of the 195 for less than $60 shipped to me so if he wants like half I might just get both and try both types.

Also am picking up the vacuum chamber tomorrow afternoon, so hopefully I'll get to try making some next week.

I asked before, but no one replied. Where are people getting the glass pieces from? Glass shops? Cutting yourself? just curious.

UV filters -- Hoya generic UV filters at whatever diameter fits. They shouldn't run anymore than $14, and can be popped out of their retaining rings easily.

I asked before, but no one replied. Where are people getting the glass pieces from? Glass shops? Cutting yourself? just curious.

I purchase round picture frames from Hobby Lobby. The glass is close to 50mm in diameter. The best part is they cost $ .99 each.

Just got this in the mail:

I just caught up with your note posted on the Wax Emulsion forum last October about applying a microwax film to glass filters for DV cameras.

It seems to me that you need a very uniform and thin film of wax. Your idea of melting the wax would work, but will be difficult to apply a thin and uniform film. I think your idea of doing it from a solvent solution should work. Almost any petroleum based solvent will dissolve microwax, but you may have an easier time of it using something like toluene. This can be purchased at Home Depot in small containers.

Another option would be to try a microcrystalline wax emulsion, which is a water based suspension of the wax. The drawbacks to this approach is that the water will take more time to evaporate than the solvent, and small quantities of a suitable wax emulsion will be difficult to obtain commercially.

I'm going to be writing this guy and experimenting with what he suggests -- apparently, he writes, he was the "Product Manager for waxes and wax emulsions at Mobil Oil Corp" prior to retiring. This could be fun :D

- jim

Very cool. Let us know how the experiments go!

Okay I picked up this boy boy today...

http://www.twistedinsomniac.com/vacuum.jpg

It's not very big, but it should do the job. Actually starting to look for teh parts now to build one fore myself a little larger. Hopefully I'm gonna order some wax this weekend and start trying this thing out. I'm still not sure if it'll pull enough of a vacuum to remove the air from the wax, but it should in theory. This one was designed to remove the air from liquid molding silicon and that's even more thick then teh melted wax.

Just to understand what everyone one else has tried. How are you guys going about putting the glass and together in the wax and also what are people using for spacers? Is there any ideal thinkness established yet?

Before I forget. I'm still debating on how much of that wax to get. If I end up with extra, is there anyone who might be interested in a pound or 2 for their experiments? I haven't priced the stuff out per pound with shipping and everything, but I'm guessing it would be less than 5 bucks a pound. Prob. more like $4 though. This wouldn't including shipping to you, but I doubt that would be very much for a pound. Just seeing if there might be any interest. Let me know. Thanks.

<<<-- Originally posted by Keith Kline : Where are people getting the glass pieces from? Glass shops? Cutting yourself? just curious. -->>>

i found very nice glases in optical (oculist/ophthalmologist) shop where they are selling frames for glasses (not for drinking) - and they are cutting it in some strange mashines - any shape you want - and diameter. i did it with 0 dioptry glases for GG and for +7 and more for my testings (macro). everyting worked perfectly.
you can ask them to cut VERy preciselly, say 58,1mm or 57,9mm and it will work. i needed for my tests one 52mm and one 58mm diameter glass, and everyting was exellent. and CHEAP!

filip

<<<-- Originally posted by Keith Kline : Okay I picked up this boy boy today...

http://www.twistedinsomniac.com/vacuum.jpg

-->>>

looks very "pro" - can you tell us about the sizes in cm or " ?

just curious

filip

How are you guys going about putting the glass and together in the wax and also what are people using for spacers? Is there any ideal thinkness established yet?

Frank and I have been using aluminum foil for spacers -- one layer thick is the "ideal" thickness so far -- any thicker and light loss is pretty extreme, however at one layer inconsistencies in the wax layer and bubbles become a real pain. You just put a piece of aluminum opposite each other at the edges of the filters and then tape the filters together on the outside:

http://ideaspora.net/grainless/step-1.jpg -- this image shows the foil folded -- it shouldn't be.

http://ideaspora.net/grainless/step-2.jpg -- here's the foil in place with some Scotch tape around the filters' edges.

http://ideaspora.net/grainless/step-3.jpg -- the setup submerged.

If I had access to a bell jar , I'd melt enough wax to submerge the glass upright, and then place the entire cup/wax/glass in the jar.

If you pull this off successfully, I'll be happy to buy a handful of them off you.

- jim

edit -- duplicate post (???)

<<<-- Originally posted by Filip Kovcin : <<<-- Originally posted by Keith Kline : Okay I picked up this boy boy today...

http://www.twistedinsomniac.com/vacuum.jpg

-->>>

looks very "pro" - can you tell us about the sizes in cm or " ?

just curious

filip -->>>

I haven't had a chance to measure it yet, but that one is rather small. If I have a chance when I get home this afternoon I'll write down the demensions. I would say that the silver base part is only about 6" across. It'll be a tight fit, but if i have any luck the guy who i borrowed it from (who also built it) is going to help me make a larger one. Most of the parts are pretty easy to find. Only the one part is somewhat harder to find, but i guess he has an extra, so really I think I just need the 2 ball valves and a plexiglass top for it.

Anyway, I'm off to the store to look for some glass now. I've also been looking for glass cutter to maybe cut my own. Has anyone ever tried that?

I've also been looking for glass cutter to maybe cut my own. Has anyone ever tried that?

Yeah. Finding a circular glass cutter for less than say, $300, that does small diameter circles (less than 3") is pretty impossible.

More correspondence from the emulsions expert:

It seems to me that the simplest way to make the sandwich is to coat one side of the glass disk, and then mount it to an uncoated disk. Trying to fill the space between two pieces of glass would require a great deal of precision in the spacing and getting the flow into the space uniformly. My suggestion is to place the glass on a flat surface and coat one side. You could just pour molten wax over the disk, but it will be difficult to get a uniform coating.

However, by applying molten wax and then quickly putting another uncoated disk on top of the molten wax, you may be able to squeeze out the excess wax and create a more uniform laminating film. Microcrystalline wax is inherently tacky, and it will act as a sort of glue to hold the two pieces of glass together once the wax cools. The warmer the wax is when it is applied, the lower it's viscosity and so the thinner the coating.

Applying wax diluted in solvent may be more difficult in this manner, but it should allow for an even thinner coating. Once the wax film has dried, you could place the uncoated glass on top of it. You may then need to heat the sandwich in an oven to soften the wax and ensure good adhesion to both glass surfaces.

Considering what you are trying to do, I would not suggest using a wax emulsion. Chances are that it will not give you enough of a uniform film.

Some of this I thought of already but pose their own problems. I responded to him already and hopefully he'll have some solutions.

- jim

I have uploaded some new test footage for you guys to check out.

http://209.214.235.122/mwtest

The file is named "MicrowaxAdapter_Test_Condenser.mpg".
Since this was mainly to test the condenser (not grain), I rendered it to MPEG2.

(( I had to download an MPEG2 codec for it to play on the computer here at work. ))

After I got the footage from the camera, I noticed a little piece of debris on the right side of the frame. Other than that, I think it looks ok. Grain may be only slightly noticeable when the aperture is closed. The image isn't 100% even in brightness, so I may get some footage with 2 condensers and see how it compares.

All comments welcome!

Thanks!

Jim and others,

I am interested in a circular glass cutter to experiment with spinning ground glass (as opposed to spinning plastic CDs). I actually need a glass circle cut around 4" or less (doesn't have to be CD-size).

Would this work:
http://www.glassmart.com/circmate.asp
?


Also, for those interested in cutting diameters less than 3", look at this:
http://www.cathedralstainedglass.com/glasscutters.html
(scroll down to the bottom - "Fletcher Small Circle Cutter - The best for cutting 1/2" to 5" diameter circles.")