It's rumored that the new Canon 7D will have 24/25/30. I really hope a firmware update will implement these modes on the 5D2 as well. I know I could use 24 on mine!

24/25/30 fps at 1080p
50/60 fps at 720p
external mic
full manual controls
in-camera editing options
HDMI out

Canon EOS 7D HD Video Specifications | neutralday (http://www.neutralday.com/canon-eos-7d-hd-video-specifications/)

Nick

If true (24/25/30, 1080p/720p/SD, manual control), I would certainly buy a 7D over a 5D, all else being equal but the price. I'd rather have a crop sensor at 24/25/30p than a FF sensor at 30p only.

Hollywood films are generally shot on Super35, which is roughly the same as delivered by a crop sensor.

In order to preserve 5D sales to videophiles (especially in Europe), Canon will have no choice but to offer 24/25p.

It's too early to pop the champagne, but not too early to put it on ice... :)

this possibility has upset a lot of people...

Philip Bloom Blog Archive Someone’s not happy about the release of the Canon 7d! (http://philipbloom.co.uk/2009/08/31/someones-not-happy-about-the-release-of-the-canon-7d/)

It's too early to pop the champagne, but not too early to put it on ice... :)

;-DDD

Let's really hope rumors are true and the new 7D is usefull as a video recording device worldwide, not only NTSCwide...

Ack... that particular scene from Downfall (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0363163/) has been done over with every last recent camera / computer / movie release that watching it is starting to feel like getting RickRolled. Sorry Phil, it was funny the first time somebody did that (whoever and whenever it was, so long ago it seems), but these days... stick a fork in it; it's done.

Bruno Ganz should get royalties every time one of these pops up, they're so ubiquitous these days!

If true (24/25/30, 1080p/720p/SD, manual control), I would certainly buy a 7D over a 5D, all else being equal but the price. I'd rather have a crop sensor at 24/25/30p than a FF sensor at 30p only.

Hollywood films are generally shot on Super35, which is roughly the same as delivered by a crop sensor.

I guess it works like a charm for you then, but as far as I'm concerned I'll stick with the FF sensor; I just can't get enough of that razor-thin DOF for some reason, though at times I miss the reach of my Sony EX1.

Cheers,
Nick

Probably a stupid question but would shooting video from a cropped DSLR sensor result in degraded/lower quality versus a FF sensor (i.e. mkii)?

Raymond,

The quality should be the same. This is more about DOF and lens reach than picture quality.

Nick

I seriously doubt it, Raymond. It has to be knocked down to 1920 x 1080 anyway, so why should it matter what size chip it comes from... the 5D Mk. II throws away a lot of information to create a 2MP 1920 x 1080 image from a 21 MP sensor.

It'll affect depth of field, but not the image quality itself, in my opinion.

For the photographers out there, like me, who shoot a little video on the side, nothing will replace a FF, not just for the DOF action but also for the FOV, especially on the wide end. That said, some photogs might want the reach of a 1.6x crop, but I'd rather have the wide end any day personally (plus, although not the same, at 21 mp, I can do a lot of cropping in post on stills, heh). But to each his own.

All I can say is they BETTER port over the 24/25p and 720p stuff to the 5D2 dammit! It'd be safe to say that I'd shoot 720p24 all the time if I had the option.

Nick and Chris - Thanks for the info. Now that I think about it, it makes complete sense.

I guess my only other question is regarding high-ISO performance on the 7D versus the 5D. But only real world tests can provide an answer to that when it comes to video recording.

I used to shoot with a Nikon 300 and definitely miss the extra reach of that camera.

this possibility has upset a lot of people...

Philip Bloom Blog Archive Someone’s not happy about the release of the Canon 7d! (http://philipbloom.co.uk/2009/08/31/someones-not-happy-about-the-release-of-the-canon-7d/)

My gut is splitting on this one Phil.... a new debate about to start. 30P is better than 24p. We need Obama and Arnie Schwartzenager here in the States to make a joint communique, and all will be good..

I guess my only other question is regarding high-ISO performance on the 7D versus the 5D. But only real world tests can provide an answer to that when it comes to video recording.


The 5D2 will blow it out of the water. No testing necessary.

When you use both cameras at the same angle of view and f-number, the lens is much bigger on the 5D2. Consider that 200mm f/2.8 on 7D and 300mm f/2.8 on 5D2 have (about) the same field of view. Yet one of them weighs 1 and a half pounds and costs $800, and the other weighs 6 pounds and costs $4,300! This is a clue pointing to the fact that the 5D2 can capture a far greater amount of light. No amount of technology improvement will allow the 7D to capture that much light. However, it is technically possible for Canon to have reduced the read noise (especially pattern noise) to a point where it looks better at high ISO, even though it has less light. I hope for that much improvement, but I highly doubt it. It's far more likely that it will have lower performance in low light than the 5D2.

For me, the real question is: Did Canon reduce the aliasing or improve the resolution?

They also put to Digic processors, it permits more pixel-massaging before baking it to AVCHD...

Philip Bloom Blog Archive Someone’s not happy about the release of the Canon 7d! (http://philipbloom.co.uk/2009/08/31/someones-not-happy-about-the-release-of-the-canon-7d/)
Best script ever.
wonderfull jop capturing the inner frustration of the 5d owners.

every single word perfectly matched my deepest feelings.
decided to go the 5d+Shake route just 4 days ago, and now this?

i wanna shot my self in the face.

i've come to the conclusion that this is not about whether 24p is possible or not in the 5D.
i think canon is really making fun of us. this is clearly an insult. a slap in the face.
But that's the marketing game.... that's the way it is.
more money... what the hell.

Best script ever.
wonderfull jop capturing the inner frustration of the 5d owners.

every single word perfectly matched my deepest feelings.
decided to go the 5d+Shake route just 4 days ago, and now this?

i wanna shot my self in the face.

i've come to the conclusion that this is not about whether 24p is possible or not in the 5D.
i think canon is really making fun of us. this is clearly an insult. a slap in the face.
But that's the marketing game.... that's the way it is.
more money... what the hell.

For each person like you who committed to the 5D2 just before the announcement of the 7D, there will be many more who have been on the fence and are happy about the 7D announcement. Canon is not making fun of you. Canon doesn't even know you exist. The world doesn't revolve around a small number of people.

"i wanna shot my self in the face."

If you are serious, get help now.

If not, you are a drama queen.

Dan

It's just a camera.

And it's not something you're married to... buy it, use it, sell it, buy something else, repeat process as often as desired. Properly cared for and with original packaging kept intact, the used market will return a very good price for your gear resulting in a relatively small cost to change out cameras. You end up paying only for the time you use it, which is a bargain considering what you can accomplish with it.

There are plenty of people out there just waiting to give you money for your used gear.

Ack... that particular scene from Downfall (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0363163/) has been done over with every last recent camera / computer / movie release that watching it is starting to feel like getting RickRolled. Sorry Phil, it was funny the first time somebody did that (whoever and whenever it was, so long ago it seems), but these days... stick a fork in it; it's done.

Bruno Ganz should get royalties every time one of these pops up, they're so ubiquitous these days!

Bit grumpy aren't we Chris? You didn't ever smirk once?! A lot of people have had a good laugh from it so it's job is done! You are also assuming everyone has seen the Downfall skit done before. I only saw my first one last week, I know a bit slow of me! :-)

I liked that Downfall bit, Phil. I thought it was hilarious.

Now, on to the 5D, I agree with Chris in that it's only a camera. As much as I'd love native 24p on it, I'm also content in converting footage in NeoScene before editing. Yeah, it's an extra step, but I'll manage. And if Canon will release a firmware update for the 5D bringing those frame rates, even better. I'll continue enjoying the camera for what it does.

Nick

Hey Nick

how are you using neoscene to convert?

Phil

You didn't ever smirk once?! Okay Phil -- I watched it after I posted, and I take it back. As often as I've seen mash-ups of that particular clip (http://www.youtube.com/results?search=related&search_query=hitler%20%22hitler%20rants%22%20parodies%20spoof%20anger%20shouts%20comedy%20satire%20p arody%20downfall%20der%20untergang%20%22der%20untergang%22%20%22downfall%20parody%22&v=vT2-AuEb7Bc&page=2), I'll admit that yours is indeed the best / funniest one I've seen. So... hugz and cheers, and I hope it's the last one of those I ever watch (because your subtitles would be heard to beat and I'm really worn out on that thing anyway).

Here's one for you: Hitler is informed about the Hitler Downfall Parodies (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT2-AuEb7Bc) (language warning)

And yes! I'm always grumpy! Send me your Mr. Mean t-shirt when you're done with it.

Hey Nick

how are you using neoscene to convert?

Phil

Phil,

I think I was unintentionally confusing. I'm converting from 30p to 29.97 in neoscene, and I will post in Vegas. Native Canon file editing in Vegas is very choppy. Neoscene will not get me to 24p, at least not from the 5D2 footage.

Depeding on the material, I might use a 24p timeline, but there can be some rather visible blending and stutter. I've heard a better conversion may be done in AfterEffects, but I've never used it.

Nick

For each person like you who committed to the 5D2 just before the announcement of the 7D, there will be many more who have been on the fence and are happy about the 7D announcement. Canon is not making fun of you. Canon doesn't even know you exist. The world doesn't revolve around a small number of people.

And for everyone who's been on the fence until now, there's someone like me who got the 5D on day 1. That's what, 10-11 months now? In that time I've shot four non-commercial short films on it (two docs, two fictional pieces). I've also shot over a dozen short interviews for a client on the camera, which paid for the body several times over. I'm shooting more interviews for them tomorrow. Tomorrow night I'm shooting a short promo for my gym in trade for my membership, which works out to nearly the same cost as the 5D body. In other words, just between the 7D announcement and the end of this week the 5D will already have more than paid for itself - again - and assuming the 7D ships at the end of September I'm pretty sure it will do so at least once more in the meantime based on projects I have lined up. The 5D was a tax write-off for my business last year, so really my out-of-pocket cost for the body was less than $2k - which means I probably won't actually lose any money if I decide the 7D is a better choice and sell the 5D. Plus any money I've spent on lenses and accessories carries over to the new body. Realistically the odds are higher that I'll just get the 7D body and keep the 5D.

I wouldn't buy a camera that I wasn't sure would pay for itself in six months or less. If you can't make a calculation like that this isn't the camera for you, even if you really, really want it. I'd really like a Red One, but I can't make the numbers work without working a lot more than I want to, so I don't waste my time worrying about it.

Now that's just the stuff I can put a clear $ value on - it doesn't count the more intangible benefits to having had the 5D for nearly a year now. For instance I've been shooting a lot more photos since I got it, and it's definitely raised my interest in the photography side of things. I shot some nice ones at a 4th of July picnic and a friend really liked them - so she asked if I could do some photography for her business. Now the rest of the stuff I mentioned above I could have shot on my XHA1 and it would have been ok - not as good as the 5D in my opinion, but not bad. But shooting with the XHA1 wouldn't get me the opportunity to shoot photos for her business. Did I mention that business is lingerie?

Did I mention that business is lingerie?

Saved the best part for last, eh, Evan? :-)

Hey Nick

how are you using neoscene to convert?

Phil

I am not Nick, but I have experimented and used NeoScene/Cineform to convert on the PC side. I actually tried to use it like you folks on the FC/Mac side were doing. I don't remember exact process, but I recall laying originally reencoded (NeoScene turns it to 29.97) footage, and changing the playback rate to 24 frames per second. I rendered that in Vegas using the Cineform codec still, and went from there trying to follow your method in FC. I recall getting decent results, but I have not played with it that much. It would be interesting to try that to compare some of your results, using the same footage. I would be willing to try to match something you have done if you want to post some raw footage.

NeoScene also has a check box in it to reencode to 24p by removing pull down at the time of capture. David Newman does not recommend its use with 5D footage. I have tried that to convert with NeoScene to 24p out of the gate. I have had mixed results there.

Bit grumpy aren't we Chris?

Of course Chris is grumpy. His 5D doesn't have 24p either. ;)

And now he has to put up with even more emotional posts on DVInfo about 24p when all he really wants is for people to discuss the technology and techniques of filmmaking. :) :) :)

Geez, am I that easy to read?

Probably a stupid question but would shooting video from a cropped DSLR sensor result in degraded/lower quality versus a FF sensor (i.e. mkii)?

I seriously doubt it, Raymond. It has to be knocked down to 1920 x 1080 anyway, so why should it matter what size chip it comes from...

Well, I'd like to see a low-light A/B-test between the two. (I suspect that I know the outcome ;^)

-- peer

Geez, am I that easy to read?

On the part about wanting DVInfo to be about filmmaking technology and techniques? Crystal clear. :)

It's all good. Later this month when the new 5D2 firmware is announced (fingers crossed), this will be the happiest forum on the web. The new big topic will be people fretting over whether to part with $2,700 for full frame or $1,700 for a crop sensor.

(Until Magic Lantern or equivalent is available on the 7D, the decision is simple. ;) )

(Until Magic Lantern or equivalent is available on the 7D, the decision is simple. ;) )
I'm hoping that it will be pretty easy to port to the 7D; they are similar generations of hardware with the same underlying OS. I've updated the ML FAQ (http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ#Will_it_work_on_a_7D.3F) to address this question.

On the part about wanting DVInfo to be about filmmaking technology and techniques? Crystal clear. :)

It's all good. Later this month when the new 5D2 firmware is announced (fingers crossed), this will be the happiest forum on the web. The new big topic will be people fretting over whether to part with $2,700 for full frame or $1,700 for a crop sensor.

(Until Magic Lantern or equivalent is available on the 7D, the decision is simple. ;) )

in the Uk the price difference between the 7d and the 5d is much much smaller! £1699 compared to £1950.