Hi,

I’m seriously thinking to upgrade my DV953, mainly for its poor law lite and 16x9 and handling issues. There are 2 consumer cams that IMO would fit the bill - GS400 and HC1000 , well - little surprise here.

I went thru all the info that there is on both of these cams - professional reviews on CCI, dvspot, cnet, some other more obscure sites that google led me to. I 've been checking the forums on dvinfo.net, here - everywhere. And I’ve been doing it for a lil short of a year, so I've been with you guys thru the GS400 and the HC1000's anticipations phases, 1st units deliveries, 1st feedbacks, reviews and all. And still there are some doubts in my mind that stop me from dropping 1000+ USD for a new cam. Of course there r much more info on the GS400 than on the HC1000, (as an example there r 22 user reviews on pricegrabber.com vs. only 2 on the Sony's) and that fact alone tells in favor of Pana, but aside from hype (and touch screen) - why a point and shooter would choose Pana over Sony. Video is probably the same - very good to excellent. But apparently Sony is better in full auto mode. All the reviews that compare these 2 cams seem to agree on the above as on that Sony's OIS/EIS is better than Pana's and autofocus /exposure are more responsive and faster. Again - I’m talking from a point and shooter point of view and those issues are very important to me, more so than stills or even frame mode with ProCinema (which are very sweet).

Also manual control is good to have but I find myself shoot handheld only and usually in a hurry and therefore got no time or desire to do any setting adjustments except maybe for backlight or sometimes Program AE.

I would like to hear opinions on these cams from the people who tried 'em both personally, played with their controls, recorded and played back the videos and then explain their reasoning as to why they decided to go with one cam over the other.

thanks to all

Hey Mike, hopefully your post will attract a HC1000 owner as I have yet to hear from one.

Unfortunately I don't own either the GS400 or HC1000 but did have the pleasure of owning the DV953, GS100, and PDX10. I would like to comment on low light since you mentioned it as one of the reasons you're wanting to upgrade. The PDX10 is similar to the GS400 and HC1000 in that it has the same size CCDs (1/4.7") and the same number of pixels per CCD (1070k). Having said that I wasn't overly impressed with the low light performance of the PDX10 over the DV953 or GS100. There was really never a situtaion where I felt I could use one cam over the other in less than ideal lighting. Thats one of the reasons I'm using my ol' reliable VX2000 for low light shooting (with its low res 16:9).

I definitely understand the widescreen issue as its one of the main reasons I upgraded to the PDX10 and eventually GS100.

My vote goes for GS400 for HQ 16:9. Too bad that quality widescreen and above average low light performance don't go hand in hand.

The HC1000 is a solid built cam. I can'r see anything wrong with it other than the touch screen thing and the lack of a couple features found on the GS400. I don't own one but I have played with the Sony a couple of times and shoot about 5 minutes of test footage.

Both the PV-DV953 and HC1000 are more solid feeling than the GS400. However, I still lean toward the GS400..., if the price is right. Here in Vancouver the GS400 is priced way too high, as usual.

The one thing that I didn't like about the HC1000, was that the battery is housed entirely inside the body of the cam. That was a major negative point in my book. The other big thing, like Frank mentioned, is the touch screen. I would have bought one, but Sony messed it up, IMO.

Here is a Russian site that did a review on the HC1000 comparing it with the GS400.

http://world.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ru_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.videomax.ru%2ftests%2fhc1000%2f.%2f

I choose the GS400, but before you decide look at the forums on http://www.pana3ccduser.com There are audio problems with the GS400 that you need to be aware of.

Wow! that guy on the russian comparison page has HUGE hands. HE makes the hc1000 look like a mini mini dv. hope you take that into account. THe sony I found to be not as comfy to hold and use as the GS400, and I have normal sized hands.
I haven't either of the cams but from testing for a couple of hours in the store I would choose the GS400. Handling is easier, no touch screen menu, and I think the Gs400s auto fucus was more quick to focus and the zoom is faster than the sony. I don't know if these aspects are important but for me the better handling and access to functions of the gs400 were enough to make me decide on the gs400.
pity it's hard to get the black one eh?

Thank you all for ur replies. And that unbiased comaprison of 2 cams is really what i was lookin' for. Did you notice how HC1000 clips, i think much more than the GS?
In fact , additionally to the above review the same russian site published another comparative review and now its a 'trisome' : GS400 vs HC100 vs TRV940(PAL ver of TRV950). This review has 2 parts - subjective comparison and objective one, the latter based on Imatest program. Subjective comparison doesnt produce a clear winer, only clear loser - TRV950. On the other hand objective review had its winer - HC1000, primarely due to its 'useful' dynamic range, althou max DR is the same in all of the cams. Reviewer also noted that Pana had better white balanace, but colors are more true in the Sony HC1000. All in all the HC1000 has better colors indoors while Pana regns in outdoor shots. The GS400 is sharper than the Sony, but as correctly noted in the review, this can be adjusted either way .
Ok, going back to that Imatest. Remeber how SONY bragged about the improved dynamic range of their HC1000? I think they cheated , in a way. They tweaked their software to match that of the Imatest program, so thay would have an 'objective' prof of their claim to fame. Pure speculation on my part part, i kno, but even the review mantioned how suspiciously close the HC1000's results followed the one of the Imatest.
Anyway, basically both cams are excelent with their own lil srtrenghts and weaknesses. I personally think that the HC1000 is kinda funky and cool looking, but the touchscreen is a nuance to say the least, no doubt bout that.

Well, now i think i got my answer. Again thank you all for your replies.

Mike

Some more points for the GS400:

- 3.5" screen over 2.5" at the Sony
- uses SD-Cards for stills over expensive Memory Sticks
- bigger lens diameter and IMO better low light performance
- as mentioned earlier you can use bigger battery packs, even waist packs or self mades
- IMO the OIS is also better

Played with the GS400 in B&H. One of the major selling points for me was a ridiculously slow, zoom crawl; an absolute must for dramatic shooting. I think it's something like :40 fom full Wide to full Tele.

I wonder if any of you, GS400 owners in here tried to shoot indoors with ProCinema on. Does the footage turn too dark, how does it look like? Does it increase dynamic range of the cam?
I'd really appreciate if sum1 could post a frame grab or two of the indoor+ ProCinema.

Thanks

Unless you lose exposure with Procinema on, it shouldn't be too dark. Procinema affects the color curve of the image, trying to fake more dynamic range look. It doesn't really turn down the exposure. If it is exposed properly without it on, it should look alright with it on.

I think the real question is how is the GS400 in indoor (low) lighting. I can't imagine a 1/4.7" chip being a vast improvement over a 1/6" chip (although my cam has a 1/4" inch chip and that was a vast improvement over a 1/6"er).

I've seen plenty of the GS400's indoor frame grabs, not perfect but as many here noted - ok, passable. I wonder how ProCimena changes the look and feel of the footage. Cuz indoors Id guess theres not much contrast to work with due too lack of the avail lite, so ..
thank you

<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Sakovski : I wonder if any of you, GS400 owners in here tried to shoot indoors with ProCinema on. Does the footage turn too dark, how does it look like? Does it increase dynamic range of the cam?
I'd really appreciate if sum1 could post a frame grab or two of the indoor+ ProCinema.

Thanks -->>>

Mike,

I will put some video at weekend for you to compare. What kind of indoors lighting you want to see? 60w lights on? Do you want camera movement or on tripod?

Regards
Leigh

If you want to see some excellent examples of video from the GS400, look here: http://www.fortvir.net/p3u/. I highly recommend ScotlandAutumn because it is full quality MPEG2 and shot all in procinema mode. These will be up for as long as I can sustain the bandwidth usage.

<<<-- Originally posted by Rokta Bija :
I choose the GS400, but before you decide look at the forums on http://www.pana3ccduser.com There are audio problems with the GS400 that you need to be aware of. -->>>

What are the audio problems you mentioned? The tape transport noise?

How many people here had a "problematic" GS400 over that?

That is a major concern for me, as it would be difficult for me to take back the camera to be replaced by a new one, as seems to be solution to that problem.

In a week or two I should be carrying on some tests with the GS400 and HC 1000 against VX2100 and PD170, so hopefully I will come back with some results of my own here. And a camera too...


Carlos

Yes, if you search on that site they have an audio of it which sounds like a cat purring. Mine doesn't have the problem.

All those posts about the cat made one of my friends paranoid. Well there was actually a slight misalignment of his tape bay that he never bothered about previously. We both looked liked fools trying too hard to listen to the transport sound while recording. I told him it sounded ok to me but he became too worried about the misalignment that he brought the unit to Panasonic service center. He got a call the following day from a Panasonic technician who couldn't seem to find any problem with his unit and so he explained about the misalignment. No further questions from Panasonic and in 4 days, he got his unit back with a replaced mechanism with no misalignment but sounds exactly the same. According to articles published before the GS400 was released in Japan in July 2004, Panasonic would produce 10,000 units of this model per month. I'm not sure if that figure is for the Japanese market alone or worldwide and whether they are actually producing and selling that much in a month. The only thing certain is that the black model is selling out faster than they can supply in the huge network of discount sellers in Japan. I still have not read anything about this issue in any Japanese board, and my cam, and those of my friends and customers appear to be ok. In my observation (because I have not actually measured the sound level of these cams), I find the motor sound of Pana consumer cams to be louder than that of Sony and Canon, but Pana must have their standard with regard to the tolerance level of that sound. I wouldn't deny that defects can happen but unless you are in absolute no rush to buy a cam (as Mike's case seems to be), I personally would not let this cat issue delay my purchase of a GS400 because other than this model, what other equally good or better consumer cams are there in this price range right now? If you don't mind waiting for the next iteration of the GS cam, then why not.

That issue made me very curious that I tested both my cams. Guess what, I found out that the motor and tape transport mechanism of my 3-year old Optura makes some "extra sounds" that could be heard when I stuck my ear on the cam but are not picked-up during recording. Next plan is to find enough time to make test recordings with an HC1000 just to hear how its motor and tape transport sound.

BTW, I like the HC1000 too and my opinion on that cam (posted previously) is still unchanged. It's more solidly built than the GS400, has a more comfortable grip, and produces equally clean but brighter video than the GS400 under less than optimum lighting conditions.

I would say if I will buy another video camera made by Japanese manufacture next time again, I will definitely buy from japan again, not buy from NZ shop.

Alan,
you seem to be the 1 who have tried both cams 1st hand and as far as i understand you've picked the GS400 over the HC1000. What were your reasons for this decision? What you liked more in the GS?
Regarding the low lite - actually the russian review stated (with the frame grabs from both cams) rather the opposite or that the GS yields brighter pic under suboptimal lighting. Oh well - maybe thats cuz he used the PAL version? As for the noise level - metioned above russian review 'listened' to 2 Sony's - HC1000 and TRV940, and GS400 and found indeed Pana being more noisy but just as unaudible as Sony's.

Thanks again

Mike

I agree with Allan's assessment of the HC1000 and the GS400, including that the Sony may be a tad better in lower light. The Sony is more quiet and built more solid. I found both cams easy to hold---unlike the TRV950, PDX10 and MX300/0.

check this yet another russian review, it has low lite pix from the GS400, HC1000 and the TRV950. To me it seems that the Pana produces brighter footage. Of course brightness can be adjusted on both the GS400 and the HC1000 but these pix give you some reference point.

http://www.videomax.ru/tests/400-1000-940/

<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Sakovski : I wonder if any of you, GS400 owners in here tried to shoot indoors with ProCinema on. Does the footage turn too dark, how does it look like? Does it increase dynamic range of the cam?
I'd really appreciate if sum1 could post a frame grab or two of the indoor+ ProCinema.

Thanks -->>>

Hi Mike,

Here is my gs400(Japanese edition) demo video shot in low light.

divx file format

File size around 18m bytes

http://www.salenz.com/movie/food.avi

The video seems quite grain.

Tell me what do you think.

Regards
Leigh

Mike

I prefer the Pana color over that of Sony.

I'm thrilled with the 3.5 inch bright, clear and sharp LCD of the GS400, even though it is quite brighter than actual scene.

I have no major issues against the touch-screen menu of the HC1000 but I prefer the multi-function ring of the Pana. Pana manual controls are more convenient to access IMO.

The body shape of the HC1000 reminds me of Canon Autoboy AF cams in the early 90s. Not really ugly but quite unconventional that will probably be unfashionable in a few months.

I was coming from an Optura100 and a GS100 both of which have 43mm threads. All my filters are 43mm and bigger, while my spare batts are that of Pana. My lens attachments would have to suit all my cams as much as possible for practical reasons.

The GS400 is lighter. Weight is important to me as I normally carry around a heavy SLR and a G3. My 11 year old daughter has to shoot as well (otherwise, grandma would never see her only son in the video :-)).


The HC1000 got positive points for the following reasons:

I have a Sony RM807 tripod with remote that requires an LANC plug. The HC1000 has it, the GS400 doesn't :-(

I have normal-sized hands and I find the HC1000 to be more comfortable to hold with its rotating grip. The height of the GS400 body is too low that in order to properly position the tip of my fingers on the top grooves and zoom lever, more of my palm would have to be placed at the bottom of the cam resulting in a rather awkward hand position. With the HC1000, I am able to achieve a very comfortable grip if I rotate the grip at 45 degrees. It seems to me that in order to make the cam appear smaller physically (which is of utmost importance in the mainstream market now) Panasonic reduced the height of the GS400 body. The result is a sleeker looking cam that does not feel as ergonomic as its predecessors. You currently own a 953 and I predict your grip would feel rather awkward the first few times you hold a GS400. Well anyway, this relative grip discomfort may be trivial to most users (and to lefties like me). With the extra record/stop buttons for both cams (right side of the lens barrel for the GS400, left side of the LCD frame for the HC1000), you can find other comfortable ways to hold both cams.

Availability of low shutter speed settings under video mode.

Spot focusing with a touch of a finger.�@I thought it was pretty cool.

More solid-built of the HC1000.

It's a lot easier and perhaps cheaper to get used accessories for Sony videocams.



I wouldn't argue about my contradicting findings with that of the Russian reviewer as regards low-light, but I stand by my opinion. I can try to email you sample comparison (compressed) videos if you want, as long as you keep them private.

By the way, there is a guy living in Japan who posted at CCI about some interesting comparison between the GS100 and the GS400. I totally agree with his findings regarding the relatively reduced sharpness of the GS400, but the resulting image does look cleaner, smoother and suits my personal taste more. He also mentioned about the slower AF response of the GS400 to which I also agree with.

Alan,
thank you for the relpy, although im sure i'll go with Pana nomatter what , i really appreciate your detailed comparison of the GS and the HC.
As a matter of fact i was in Manhattan this past weekend and as a side trip managed to pop in the Sonystyle store on 56th and Madison and had a chance to hold the HC1000 in my own hand. I must agree with you - the Sony sat nicely and comfy in my hands and it did feel real solid. Now, If you think about - this rotating grip gives you 2 form factors - traditional and match box - in one uinit. Slick ergonomis. Althou LCD 's too small the styling of the cam is really hip, wouldnt say its a girl magnet but looks sick nevertheless. I also took a quick look at the FX1 - reminded me a pipe with bottons :).
Oh btw, i read somewhere recently that the Pana GS400 was named Product of the Year by EISA (European Imaging and Sound Association), here's the link fo those who 's interested:

http://www.eisa-awards.org/history/2004-2005/video.html

thanks again

Mike