We have a shoot coming up next year in which a woman chases a guy with an axe down a spiral staircase. It's one of those staircases that has an open area in the middle, so standing at the bottem you can see all the way to the top floor. The open area in the middle is maybe six feet across, and the staircase rises three stories. We have extensive access to the location, fortunately. I want to lower the camera down the middle of the open column and track the two of them as they run down the stairs. Can anybody think of a way to pull this off? If the camera was on a rope and pulley, it seems like it would sway back and forth too much, and how could we control the rate of the spin, let alone see what we're capturing? Maybe run a PVC pipe all the way up and put the camera on a pedastal with hole in it that the PVC pipe pokes through? How would we spin it? Any creative types out there with a knack for building funky gadgets like this? I'm stumped.

How wide are the stairs themselves and what is the handrail made of? I have an idea but I need to think on it a bit more with some of the details of the location. Could be a lot of fun.

Also, what camera are you going to use and will it go wide enough that close to the subjects?

Are you going for all three flights in one take?

The handrails are wood, with a post that protrudes up from the handrail at each corner. I also forget to mention that each floor has a landing, so the steps are not continous all the way to the bottem. No way for anything to slide down the handrail for any length. I would guess that the stairs themselves are maybe five feet wide.

It would be cool to do a continous shot all the way down, but I worry that it might feel too slow. I don't want to slow down the chase, so that decision will ultimately be made in editing. I would think we would have to have at least one 360 degree turn of the camera.

Oh, on the camera -- GL1 with Century anamorphic adapter. If I had a fisheye, I would probably use it and shoot digital 16:9, but I don't think I would want to risk a borrowed lens for something like this. The Century goes pretty wide. I'm pretty sure it would work.

hmmmm...

I was thinking of building a brace of some kind with rollers to follow the hand rail as you lowered the camera from above but the landings might make that difficult.

The other thing you could consider is renting a vertical man lift, you know the scissor type for working high ceilings. Have someone at the controls lowering you while you are filming the action. It might cut into your budget a little but it would save you a lot of work and you'd actually get the shot. Plan on a few practice runs to time it correctly and try the lift out at the rental house because they don't always lower very quickly. Time a dry run at the correct pace and then compare this at the rental house to make sure you can make it lower fast enough.
You might even try to work out a deal for a discount if you give them a credit, you never know.

Oh, and make sure you get a unit that will actually fit into the room.

I saw a new version of the Hi-Pod at the DV Expo in LA.
Don't remember if you can lower it during the take.
It's worth a look: www.hi-pod.com

Hope this helps.

Ken

Ken, the Hi-Pod cannot be boomed down while shooting. When the pressure clamps are released, the only thing keeping the released post from crashing down in a tangled heap, is the hand that you have dedicated to holding the post in place. Also, as soon as ANY tension is released on the pan/tilt pully system, you lose camera control to boot.

The Hi-Pod would, on the other hand, come in very handy for some pretty crazy angles on the shot.

Marco, the shot, as described sounds very cool...and probably very expensive to carry out safely.

You're absoulutely correct about the shot running too long. It sounds like a job for creative camera angles with frenetic camera movement as well as many fast cuts in post to really bring home the speed of the chase.

I'd love to see the finished product.

Good luck, RB.

If you don't mind the high/low angle, perhaps you could have the camera on a stabilization device (i.e. steadicam, DIY glidecam, etc.) and have the camera person run down with the talent. The cameraman would be half a staircase ahead/behind and be shooting across the hole in the middle of the staircase.

You could build a device to do what you ask.
Perhaps similar to a childs top. The shaft being made of 2 tubes twist together at the rate you wish the camera to turn as it descends and a platform with slots in the center to follow.
However I agree with others have said and that several takes from different postions( either from stairs or scafolding) would allow for better action editing.
smitty

Try a block and tackle with 4 pulleys. That should stabilize the camera enough that it won't spin/sway like crazy. Adding a little weight to the pulleys closest to the camera will help stabilize it as well.

Here's the best picture I could find (click here) - scroll to the bottom to see the example with 4 pulleys. (http://science.howstuffworks.com/pulley.htm)

Michael,
Interesting. That looks like it would work, although I don't know if the property owner would like us screwing pulleys into his ceiling. :)

Well, I tried dangling the camera upside down from a monopod last night to see if I could hold it steady enough, and it kind of worked. I can do nearly a 360 degree pan while continuously lowering the camera. I can only lower it one floor, but as mentioned, I probably don't need to track them all the way down the stairs in one shot. It's not as steady as what I had envisioned, but by intercutting the footage with rapid shots from different angles, including some kind of steadicam shot, I think it might work. Biggest problem now is figuring out how to light it without getting my own shadow in the shot. It's already a problem with the existing lighting. Thanks very much to everyone who has offered advice, and if anyone has any more ideas, please keep them coming.

Marco, I was thinking you could screw the pulley system into a two-by-four, that way the whole thing is portable and you could just hang it at the top of the stairs.

Or you could build a vertical dolly system with rope and such....

Rob,
What type of vertical dolly system are you envisioning?

You could either sandwich the dolly inbetween two tracks or better
construct a track where the wheels are on both sides of the
track (so it doesn't fall off). You will need to come up with a
way to rotate the complete track. You could use some wires
with a hoisting like device to lower the dolly etc. Ofcourse, this
will take quite a bit of construction work, but should be doable
with some time, resources and money.

If you want I can draw the idea out...

This sounds like a job for a Wescam rig or a techno crane with a retractable boom. Another way would be to rent one of those hydraulic or electric vertical lifts, not a scissor lift, used for painters and utility crews. They go really high and are small enough to fit into that spiral diameter. You can find them at heavy equipment rental locations.

Thanks for the offer Rob, but looking at my options, I think simplicity is going to win out and I'll stick with dangling the camera from a monopod.

If you had a rope that tied to the camera one from the top and the other from the bottom then someone could walk ahead of the characters turning the camera as needed.

To keep the rope taunt you could have a pulley, (or anything to run the rope through even the railing) at the bottom with the rope then going up to the camera, then op to the top where it is again tied down. Having it taunt will prevent swaying (i rock climb I was thinking something like carabiners would be perfect) If it was me i would use a tripod attaching the rope to the bottom of the tripod and the top handle of the gl-1. Now the rope should be taunt but not tight, just enough pressure to keep the slack out. And have one person on each end of the rope keeping it taunt. Or is you are short on hands use bungee rope, fairly thin but good for taking up slack.

p.s. If the camera person needs to be farther away you could just attach an extension to the tripod or whatever you are using.

Hey Gang,
I just got an email regarding this topic from James Emory was telling me your were looking for something that would work for this shot. Check out
www.roadrunnerproductions.tv/camriser.html

You'll see a vertical jib that I know for fact would work perfect for this. We're
in the process of modifying our web site and the links to sample video shot with the device aren't showing up. So, here are two direct links to some sample footage.
www.roadrunnerproductions.tv/theshow.mpg
www.roadrunnerproductions.tv/lumenarea.mpg
Hope this helps.
Danny

That thing is cool. Can I rent it in my area?

Fred -- I'm having trouble visualizing what you are suggesting.

Hey Marco,

Ok i drew a little diagram sorry i threw it together so it looks like a kindergarten project.

http://hazardousproductions.com/images/help.gif

It's a setup that is often used in rock climbing. Basically you will have a two sections of rope. A bottom piece and a top piece. The bottom piece could connect to the bottom of the camera then would run down through a pulley or any non-friction causing device ( i drew something that has two strings tied to a metal ring . The two strings are tied to something to act as an anchor railing or other structural piece) The top rope would do the same thing but in the opposite direction. The buy on top would control the rate of descent that you want, the bottom man is only there to maintain tension so that the camera does not swing or spin in an unwanted manner. Then I was thinking you could have someone walking down the stairs ahead of your actors, monitoring the monitor and turning the camera as needed.

Does that help?

p.s. I write like English is my third language, but sadly it is my first.

In the preceding thread, someone mentioned a whack of jump cuts. Although the resourceful people here are to be applauded for their engineering prowess and necessity equalling the mother of invention, none of the elaborate rigs specified will be needed. But I don't want them to think I am not in awe of their craftiness. I bow to their ingeniousness.
If it were me, I would do this in several takes. Blocking and rehearsal is the key. Be where you need to be: The talent and the camera. Make the "where you need to be" repeatable. This is the essence of continuity. Since you are moving about in a 360 degree space, the shadows will be unmanageable for one take. (your words). The final edit will be about 24 jump cuts from about 6-12 perfect shoots. All done handheld or on the monopod specified. Be sure your editor is present during the shoot. And make a detailed log as you shoot of positions used.
That will win this one. Lighting for this scene will be challenge number one. Talent and camera in a repeatable space will be number 2. After that, the only problem will be a poor log for the editor.
I can't wait to see your .mov or .wmv posted here!!!

Yeah he's got a point... though all the contraptions would be a lot more fun haha

Don't lose sight of your vision. The lighting shouldn't be too much of an issue if you drop the shadows down rather than horizontally. I would use two key lights, both pointed at the same angel downward. But, one would be used to light the upper portion of the stair case and the second to light the lower portion. This way your shadows would consitently fall down rather than accross. And I would flag off the intersection of the two light paths to create a shadow or to at least give the appearance that the two lights were a single light source. I'd might also use a slight fill from camera pov, depending on your lighting mood.

I would just hate to see such a dramatic shot like this take a back seat to jump cuts. I you can't make a complete take, do a second angle from just in front of the acter leading them down the stairs. This would make a logical b-shot to cut to and from. Or as another option you could lower the camera to the actors foot level and once again lead them down the stairs for another quick cutaway.

You'll have to forgive me. Being a perfectionist (not always a good thing), I never like to let obstacles direct the shot.

Jimmy,
You have a definite point. It is possible to make something more complicated than it needs to be. I'm reminded of the first season of "Project Greenight" when they had a guy holding a 40 foot boom on scaffolding mounted on a pontoon of some kind in the middle of Lake Michigan, and ended up not even using the shot. The shot they ended up using was a lot more powerful and simple, and didn't even require a boat. Still, sometimes that extra effort can make a dramatic difference. I'm certainly glad Hitchcock insisted on building that massive crane thing to zoom in on the key in "Notorious." Now that was a cool shot. I'm definitely grateful for the amount of thought people have put into these suggestions.

Fred -- I can't find that diagram at your site. I did notice you are looking for readers for your script though. I'd be glad to proof it. I'm an editor at a local paper here. Send it on.

I think that a Steadicam or even hand held camera would be a better way to convey the frenetic energy and maybe even motivate POV shots either up, or down the stairs. Using cuts would help too.

A smooth camera shot down the stairs feels like it would kill the immediacy and feeling of the shot. Not sure if anyone is willing to run down three stories of stairs for multiple takes, that's a pretty hairy Steadicam shot. Safety first!

If you were shooting on film, I would suggest slightly undercranking the frame rate and then run the action at half or three-quarter speed.

It's a complicated shot, so rehersals are key, what ever you do.

Lighting it would be a pain. Bury them Kinos!

<<-- I did notice you are looking for readers for your script though. I'd be glad to proof it. I'm an editor at a local paper here. Send it on. -->>>

Thanks Marco that'd be great!! I'm sending it on over. The ending is still being worked out. Please feel free to play with it or do anything you feel will improve it, or edit it.


Thanks again!!

Fred

What about adding 1 long piece of PVC to the top of the stairs and fixed to some point at the top and bottom, (the bottom could just be weighted) and a larger diameter "T" that would slide up and down that pipe? You would make the center of the "T" facing out toward the railing and add a length of pipe there to reach it. You could add some sort of dual wheeled assembly to that end that rides the railing, lie a traditionally dolly or even an old roller skate.

You would probably have to add a handle someplace for a grip to run (backward mind you) in front of the character, down the stairs, to roll the assembly down the railing to keep up with the character(s).

something like this:

____
| [____]{ Camera
| ||
| ||
[| ]========()-() Arm from the "T" with wheels
|
|
| Pipe in the center of the stairs


It's been a long time since I've done ASCII art. And it's not showing up right here either. Cut and paste the picture into Notepad, etc, add 15 spaces to the top line, 6 spaces to the front of each line, except the 5th line, add 5. You should have the idea by then.

The "T" would have to be somewhat snug to keep from tilting but free enough to turn. You could probably let the wheel assembly float as the distance to the pole will likely vary as the radius of the stairs probably wont be a perfect circle.

It's really beautiful ASCII art, really.

What do you folks think?

Sean McHenry

I hope I didn't do this right because I don' t see much difference when adding the changes the way I interpreted them. By adding spaces, you mean blanks right? What is adding 15 spaces to the top line suppose to do if this is the case? Adding spaces to the front of the other lines just moves the whole thing over and nothing seems to change. Please clear this up. Thanks.

Point is, can you see what I am trying to diagram here? Ok, don't add the blank spaces. Can you arrange the characters to show what I am trying to do?

I would attach an image but alsa, we cna't do that here. I would throw an image on my web site but I have no good way other than scan in a hand sketch. If you would like to see a hand sketch, I suppose tomorrow I can come up with something.

Sean

not to get away from the do it yourself process or take the fun out of it, but depending on how much time/money you can put into it, you may want to consider hiring a grip for the shoot who has an extensive backround in camera rigs. Just a thought. :)

Marco:

In thinking about the shot you describe, you have one person chasing another down a spiral staircase with the camera in the center, which puts it no more than 5 feet away from the actors as I see it (3 ft radius to the "hole" plus perhaps 2 feet from inside railing to actor? how wide are the stairs?). Unless the ax wielder is right on top of the person they are chasing, you will have a hard time keeping both in the frame. The camera would have to be higher or lower than the action to give a wider frame which to be honest, may be more dynamic compositionally than tracking right at eye level. The easiest way to determine this is to position the camera in the center of the stairs at ground level and position a stand-in just a few stairs up and check your composition, as this is the same relationship you would have in the desired shot you are proposing. Then try moving the stand-in up the stairs to see what that does with the composition.

Again, not sure of the stairs themselves--is this a classic iron tight radius spiral staircase, or a broader structure? Another possible variation on the shot is to have the camera descend from alongside the staircase, so that the characters are seen the whole time winding their way down, coming closer to camera and then moving away, etc. This could also be very dynamic and may underscore the "chasing" aspect nicely. Given the right distance to the stairs so that no panning is necessary, i.e. the lens is wide enough to cover the path of the actors from left to right without panning, this becomes a simpler physical challenge, just a straighth drop.

I will agree with others that the Steadicam-down-the-stairs version is the least interesting for this sort of thing, and given a tight diameter staircase, rather dangerous. Although with a GL1 you can easily use a handheld stabilizer which shouldn't be a problem.

Excellent. Thanks Charles. Just measured the staircase (sorry it took a few days. Kinda busy with Christmas) and the interior hole is 55 inches. The stairs themselves are 39 inches wide. No, this isn't an iron staircase. Everything is wood, and as mentioned the stairs don't descend continously to the bottem, as there is a landing at each floor. I really appreciate everyone's input here. I have not shot a lot of action scenes. These types of shots, especially anything incorporating camera movement, are completely new territory for me.

How about sending a camera guy down the center on a rope? With a winch and pulley, he could descend smoothly, and at a constant rate.

So Marco, taking those measurements into account, you have about 4 feet from the center point of the hole to the middle of the stairs themselves, i.e. the distance from camera to actors. As I mentioned earlier, you would need to think about what you could actually contain in that frame (not both chaser and chasee, but perhaps quick pans from one to the other).

Your reference to the ill-fated Jimmy Jib shot in "Project Greenlight" (two years later, still an astonishingly bad concept) was astute. On a limited schedule and budget, sometimes the "coolness" of a concept that takes a lot of time and effort to achieve can end up being less than spectacular in the final film, and required sacrificing many other valuable setups. The smartest thing you can do as a filmmaker is to see this coming and head it off at the pass. The second smartest thing is that if you do decide to roll the dice and go for the sexy rig but it ends up taking too long to set up on set, you make the decision to cut your losses and move on before even more time is wasted.

This looks like the rig to do the job.

www.crewpix.com/gallery/Movies/descrig1

the easiest way i can think of is to build a strange dolly that will follow the track of the rails. one leg would be MUCH higher than the other with a platform connecting the two (or four i'd recommend) that the camera sits on top of. this system would be able to be controlled much easier as far as speed and safety of the camera is concerned. if the legs were correctly the device would mimic the shape of the rails all the way down.

On the other hand, you might consider relocating the scene.
If you find a similar spiral staircase that is open on the side to a large room or even one coming down as a freestanding structure in the middle of a room, you might be able to integrate it into the scenario. You could stand off a ways and zoom in close as you followed them all the way down, in one shot. With what would appear to be a camera position right next to the actors, you might be able to conceal that the staircase is in such an open space. If the writers and director recognize how difficult smooth-looking footage of this action would be to obtain in this staircase, they might go for the change.

If you try all the suggestions others have given and the results come out badly, my idea may start to seem more interesting.

You didn't tell us if the woman ever connects with that ax!?
If so, the special effects needed may be interesting-----or is this a snuff movie?