What is the best method to capture various sounds? I will be using my iMac, so I know that there are Sony Minidisc issues (right?!).

I am interested in capturing ambient sounds (racetracks, cities, buskers....) and already have a Sony ECM 908 mic.

I intend to use them in my DV editing in iMovie.

Thanks!

I have been using the iRiver recorders (700 series) they work great.Get the 1 gb model if you can.
One problem is to record mono(single channel) you have to invert the left and right channels with an adapter(I made mine)
This doubles the stereo record time (over 13hours at 44k 16bit mono with 1gbmodel)
smitty

Hi Jack, if you have the money, the Marantz PMD670 is really great. You record onto CF cards (I have 2 1GB ones, which is PLENTY for usual purposes), and you have a lot of flexibility with the format you record onto - MP2, MP3, WAV, Mono, Stereo, etc.

You also have a large selection of input and output methods - optical, XLR, RCA. There is also a USB port for direct dragging and dropping of the sound files onto your hard drive.

If you search in the forum for earlier posts on this topic, you'll find that most people speak favourably of this device.

I've had no problems with mine since I bought it, and it's been a great replacement for my MD-recorder (a consumer model, very loud machine noises and limited, but of course, not as expensive).

Good luck,
Dennis

I'm a big fan of minidisc. I especially like the archiveability -- you can match one disc to one tape. The new HiMD units have finally eliminated many of the barriers to making digital transfers.

marco

can you copy the music off the new mini discs at a faster rate then 1x to a computer?...my old mini disc player was limited to real time song transfers...

<<<-- Originally posted by Marco Leavitt : I'm a big fan of minidisc. I especially like the archiveability -- you can match one disc to one tape. The new HiMD units have finally eliminated many of the barriers to making digital transfers. -->>>

Thanks, but also on Mac ? ?

I believe that the new HiMDs do allow faster than real-time uploads. Unfortunately, the Sony software apparently will only do the upload after deleting the file from the disc. Frigging Sony. If something goes wrong with the upload, you can lose your file. Check out out the forums at minidisc.org. There's quite a lot of discussion about this. Most people are using a more reliable third party hack that only allows for a real time transfer, but at least there's no danger of losing your file. Besides, as I mentioned, one of the best things about minidisc is its archiveability. I sure wouldn't want to have my original disc erased. All of this only works for PC. I'm also on a Mac. We use the older style minidisc and do the transfer with a deck that has optical outputs. Still not a bad way to go. It's very reliable and used minidisc gear is now dirt cheap on eBay.

is a small device (the size of a packer of cards) reallly that good for recording? I don't think you can get great quality with that. Better us a bigger hardware device with better in and outputs like the marantz or other bigger nad more heavier. hardware

The iriver is half the size of a deck of cards and can use usb 2.0 so the files transfer very fast.An hour of recording = 3 minutes to transfer(depending on your computer)It is restricted to .rec files which are mp3 files but I'm very pleased with the sound quality at 44k 16bit 320kbps.
Jose :This is 1 case that size doesn't matter!
Marco: No moving parts in the iriver ,faster file transfers, as good if not better quality recordings, longer record times and compact size.......... minidisc has had it's place but I believe the iriver at the moment(technology changes fast) to be substantially a better choice.
Dennis: Thanks for the heads up and Marantz does make good gear that unit is excellent in the right situations.But it won't in the talents pocket and the marantz does like a lot of power.
So for remote situations or when you need to mic several sources Ilike this little iriver.
jack: for archiving I just drop the files onto cd.
Thanks
smitty

Jack,
Does the iRiver have a meter? I've heard repeatedly that it does not, which I find a little hard to believe, and more than a little frustrating.

It doesn't have a record level meter, only a playback one.Although I didn't like the idea of no meter and I wish they would put one on it, it hasn't posed a problem for me.Once you establish typical mic positioning and experiment with volume settings , the unit seems pretty stable.
On some shoots I take the laptop , do an audio check, dump to laptop and have a look at the file in software.Doesn't take any longer than a normal sound check.
Now bear in mind that this device has it's place and isn't a cure-all for every situation.
You still need a sm58 , wireless system, etc. in situations calling for them.
This is just another tool
smitty

Marco, not sure if this has changed since you posted, but my Hi-MD doen't delete the file when it transfers the first and only time you're allowed. The file stays on the disk, but deletes if you try to transfer again. It means the discs are still good archive material, just means you have to go line-in through your sound card next time (ad infinitum), which isn't terrible as a backup. Annoying, yes, but still archivable.

Thanks Arne. I can see where the confusion would come from with that.

Marantz has a new CF recorder - pmd 660 I believe . that's walkman size - cost 5 bills - xlrs' - the whole 9 yards- Kurth

<<<-- Originally posted by Arne Johnson : Marco, not sure if this has changed since you posted, but my Hi-MD doen't delete the file when it transfers the first and only time you're allowed. The file stays on the disk, but deletes if you try to transfer again....snip...-->>>

HUH??? After recording you're only allowed to transfer the file off of the master ONCE? I'm not very familiar with HD recording but that sure seems wacko to me. Sounds incredibly risky, especially for professional use. What happens if you're transferring and something goes haywire? One file, one chance to transfer, with your entire production, not to mention your professional reputation, resting on the odds that nothing will EVER go wrong (and nothing is ever perfect 100% of the time in my experience)?

Is this universal with miniDisk technology or is it just a "feature" of specific brands and recorder models? If you don't mind and if it's something unique to specific models, what recorder are you using (so I can avoid it if I decide to go the miniDisk route for location sound myself)?

Steve

Believe it or not, this arrangement was considered a huge step forward when Sony announced they would allow digital transfers on portable HiMD units. In the previous incarnation of minidisc, there was no way to do a digital transfer using a portable unit at all. Most people lived with analog transfers or bought more expensive desktop units with digital outputs (that's what we did). This kind of bullheadedness is what all but killed the format.

Here is the link for the new Marantz "walkman" CF recorder. Looks truly awesome. I had never seen something so small with Phantom power. Can even record Mp3 in real time!

http://www.d-mpro.com/users/folder.asp?FolderID=3629&CatID=19&SubCatID=180

Beachteks' DXA-10 is specifically desinged to hook up to portable recoreds (mini disk, iriver...) with preamps, dual xlr... uses 9 volt battery. That would solve the volume level issues.

That Marantz recorder looks fantastic.

In response to Steve, yes it's annoying...but that's not exactly what happens. you get one chance to digitally transfer the file, but an unlimited amount of chances to transfer using the line out. The sound quality drops some, but as pointed out by Marco in another thread, there've been tests done that show it's not catastrophic. If you're in a situation requiring absolute acoustic fidelity on which your whole professional reputation rests, then you're probably not using a minidisc recorder anyway. It's a guerilla workaround for those of us who don't have $500 to spend on that great Marantz recorder. Thing is, if you use the Marantz, and want to archive your recordings, you'll have to pay about $90 per 1 gig flash card, as opposed to $6 for a 1 gig minidisc. As a doc-maker, I have to archive my recordings, can't wipe them out, so it's a good solution. If I had the money, believe me, I'd use something else. But for $200 (the NHZ800), you can't do better. The sound is great, uncompressed, and it weighs less than my wallet.

Arne

<<<-- Originally posted by Arne Johnson : In response to Steve, yes it's annoying...but that's not exactly what happens. you get one chance to digitally transfer the file, but an unlimited amount of chances to transfer using the line out. The sound quality drops some, but as pointed out by Marco in another thread, there've been tests done that show it's not catastrophic. If you're in a situation requiring absolute acoustic fidelity on which your whole professional reputation rests, then you're probably not using a minidisc recorder anyway. It's a guerilla workaround for those of us who don't have $500 to spend on that great Marantz recorder. Thing is, if you use the Marantz, and want to archive your recordings, you'll have to pay about $90 per 1 gig flash card, as opposed to $6 for a 1 gig minidisc. As a doc-maker, I have to archive my recordings, can't wipe them out, so it's a good solution. If I had the money, believe me, I'd use something else. But for $200 (the NHZ800), you can't do better. The sound is great, uncompressed, and it weighs less than my wallet.

Arne -->>>

Okay now I'm getting confused. Though I'm a computer geek by profession my video production and sound recording experiences are way back in the analog days so bear with me - I've been reading up on SCMS copy protection since encountering this thread. Is that what we're talking about here? If so, let me see if I've got it straight. As I read the info I've found so far, it sounds like it deals with making multi-generation digital copies of a digital minidisc master. Let's say I'm using a minidisc recorder in the field to record wild sound or for double-system sync sound while filming with a DV camera. From what I've been reading, I could make a copy of that disc to another minidisc or a DAT tape but I then would not be able to take that copy and re-copy it to further digital generations. But I haven't read anything to suggest I can't use my original master and make multiple first generation digital copies off of it, I just can't subsequently copy the copies. Yet the post that I saw earlier seemed to suggest that you got one chance to copy that master disc digitally and then somehow it got locked so that it would only playback through the original recorder's (or another deck's) analog outputs from that point on. I confess that doesn't make a lot of sense to me - have I misunderstood?

By the way, was looking at some information on the (now discontinued) Marantz PMD650 professional minidisc recorder and it says that the copy protection can be disabled in the setup menus if one chooses.

Say I'm using a minidisc on a shoot to capture room tone & ambience, wild sound & FX, additional mikes on live music on location, additional voice sync tracks beyond the 2 or 4 recorded on the tape by the DV camera, or whatever. Or perhaps using it during post to master the narration tracks to go into the video. I then want to import the audio from the minidisc into the computer to use as media clips in Vegas/Sound Forge, Premiere Pro/Audition, Audacity or whatever for editing and sweetening, and then mixing it into the audio tracks alongside or replacing the DV camera's audio for the final video. Are you saying that it can't be done completely in the digital domain but has to be transferred into the computer for editing by recapturing from an analog playback? Or that I can transfer it into the computer but that the copy protection will kick in when I try to output the finished video and prevent its final export? Or that I can transfer it once digitally but if, say, the resulting file somehow gets deleted or corrupted on the computer I can only replace it with a capture from analog, that the minidisc itself only plays back digitally one time and then locks itself???

Steve House
(computer geek looking to return to video production after 20 year hiatus)

It's the last option of your many questions. You get one digital download, then it locks. The file that you download can be turned into a WAV and you can do whatever you want with it, duplicate it, put it on a cd to archive, whatever. The file that's left on the minidisc then can't be downloaded digitally, only played through analog.

Again, it's dumb and annoying, but as Marco said, a big improvement from no digital transfers just a year or two ago.

<<<-- Originally posted by Arne Johnson : It's the last option of your many questions. You get one digital download, then it locks. The file that you download can be turned into a WAV and you can do whatever you want with it, duplicate it, put it on a cd to archive, whatever. The file that's left on the minidisc then can't be downloaded digitally, only played through analog.

Again, it's dumb and annoying, but as Marco said, a big improvement from no digital transfers just a year or two ago. -->>>

How does it know I'm capturing the file versus just listening to the recording through the digital input on my spiffy stereo?

Well, it's a whole different process. You transfer the file by USB, using Sony's software on your computer. Line out to listen on your stereo.

<<<-- Originally posted by Arne Johnson : Well, it's a whole different process. You transfer the file by USB, using Sony's software on your computer. Line out to listen on your stereo. -->>>

I was looking earlier today at the info and user's manual for the discontinued Marantz PMD650 recorder after I saw it recommended on an indie film site. It has XLR and coaxial digital outputs to feed digital audio to other equipment as well as analog line level outputs. There's no mention of USB though. Its discussion of SCMS deals with making multi-generation copies to both MD and DAT recorders, stating those copies will be protected from further digital copying, but makes no mention of any restriction on making more than one first-generation copy off of the original master disk. It also says the SCMS "feature" can be disabled in the setup menu - I presume to allow you to make masters from analog original sources that allow multi-generation copies if you choose.

Are we talking about two totally different critters here in terms of the level of the system and their capabilities? The Marantz is claimed to be a "professional" portable recorder that was marketed as a lower cost alternative to DAT for field recording and mastering that sells in the high hundreds to single kilobuck range as opposed to multiple kilobucks for pro DAT decks - is that a whole different order of magnitude different from what I presume are the consumer recorders we've been talking about? I can't imagine anyone professionally involved in the broadcast, film, or recording industries buying a field recorder for digital mastering that only gives them one shot to transfer at prime quality from the original to the editing software. For example, was just reading in American Cinematographer about the upcoming American PBS Nature series on the rainforests. If I was going off into the Amazon rainforest with a recorder for location sound on such a project I'd want something that would let me make multiple transfers of the files if necessary once I got back home as well as the ability to create backup disks in the field while on site.

I teach computer apps for a living at the moment. I emphasize to my students that there are two kinds of computer users in the world, those who have had a hard drive fail and those who are going to have a hard drive fail. I guess I'm bringing that paranoia over to video with me. If I've got one shot at recording something, whether in the Amazon rainforest or a client's wedding, I want to eliminate as much risk of loss of that recording as possible.

Well, imagine it you must...For the minidisc recorder was fairly popular with run-and-gun docmakers and event videographers even before the digital transfer was allowed at all. All the systems of recording you're talking about have potential losses built in. I'm not sure why you would have more confidence in a compact flash system or a hard drive. Similar scary scenarios exist with drives dying and compact flash fritzing. I don't know what to tell you. I'm pretty serious about filmmaking, and yet I'm also poor. As I said before, if you have the money for the Morantz and all the attendant exponentially increasing costs as your archive grows, by all means, go there!

For the rest of us, patched together solutions will do the trick. I would also love a 35mm setup and a full crew and unlimited access to Digital Intermediates in post and...but alas, note the BUDGET in budget filmmaking.

As for the rest of your technical questions, I don't know enough about it to answer. I have a mindisc recorder with a Samson Mixpad 4 and it cost $260 all together. It works great, uncompressed sound with virtually endless and cheap memory. That works for me. You'll have to do what works for you.

Arne

<<<-- Originally posted by Arne Johnson : Well, imagine it you must...For the minidisc recorder was fairly popular with run-and-gun docmakers and event videographers even before the digital transfer was allowed at all. All the systems of recording you're talking about have potential losses built in. I'm not sure why you would have more confidence in a compact flash system or a hard drive. Similar scary scenarios exist with drives dying and compact flash fritzing. I don't know what to tell you. I'm pretty serious about filmmaking, and yet I'm also poor. As I said before, if you have the money for the Morantz and all the attendant exponentially increasing costs as your archive grows, by all means, go there!

For the rest of us, patched together solutions will do the trick. I would also love a 35mm setup and a full crew and unlimited access to Digital Intermediates in post and...but alas, note the BUDGET in budget filmmaking.

As for the rest of your technical questions, I don't know enough about it to answer. I have a mindisc recorder with a Samson Mixpad 4 and it cost $260 all together. It works great, uncompressed sound with virtually endless and cheap memory. That works for me. You'll have to do what works for you.

Arne -->>>

I think you misunderstood - the Marantz I was referring to IS a minidisc system. The 650 is minDisc while the 660 and 670 are the flash recorders.

http://users.aol.com/fmgp/pmd.htm Is where I first saw it.

Sorry, I spoke a little too broadly. I should have said "no CONSUMER portable allowed a digital transfer." The Marantz unit you mention, and the HHB Portadisc, don't have the same SCMS restrictions. They were much more expensive though, and in a different class. The Portadisc may still be in production. It's still offered at B&H and is very highly thought of. HHB minidiscs are the best by the way. They are a lot more solid than any other brand I've tried.

... and why would anyone think of archiving the pmd 660 cf recording on cf cards. You'd archive it like all dig data. Burning discs & on multiple HDs' or /and to tape- 5 bills at B&H - sounds like a deal to me - I remember when you could only get a modified crystalsync recorder that was a fragile sony walkman pro for double the price. The marantz will be alot more dependable than minidisc- not to run down minidisk - it's great and cheap but the marantz is the pocket recorder I've been waiting for , for 30 years. kurth

<<<-- Originally posted by Arne Johnson : Thing is, if you use the Marantz, and want to archive your recordings, you'll have to pay about $90 per 1 gig flash card, as opposed to $6 for a 1 gig minidisc.
Arne -->>>

I transfer the data to either a CD at around Aus 40 cents per 700mb or DVD at about AU$1 per 4.5gig
Am I doing something wrong?

<<<-- Originally posted by Kurth Bousman : . the marantz is the pocket recorder I've been waiting for , for 30 years. kurth -->>>
You have big pockets then? :)

No, that's fine...You can do the same thing with the files taken from the minidiscs too, or a hard drive...Some people (like me) want to keep the actual recording medium archived as backup, as they are often matched up with a video tape, and/or you never know what'll happen to those digital files. I was just making the point that if you do that with the Compact Flash, it can get expensive.

<<<-- Originally posted by Kurth Bousman : ... and why would anyone think of archiving the pmd 660 cf recording on cf cards. You'd archive it like all dig data. kurth -->>>

Well, I don't know how you work, but we archive all our miniDV tapes, never get rid of anything or tape over anything. That digital data stays on the tapes. Same principle. I'm sure we'll all let go of this kind of work flow once everything is on P2 cards and the like, and it's all more affordable, but for now...

That's how we do it too -- one disc, one tape. Always. If I was backing up my audio from a hard disc recorder, I would make a point of burning two copies, and I'd still be a little worried about it. That's kind of a lot to store, and as Arne points out, increases potential labeling mishaps. Still a workable system though. I haven't heard any complaints from people doing it that way. Minidiscs though, are really hardy in their little plastic cases.

>>>Well, I don't know how you work, but we archive all our miniDV tapes<<<
Arne , that's for minidv tapes. If we were talking about dat , then of course I'd archive the tapes. But we're talking about how to save audio data recorded on cf cards cheaply. Well obviously I don't own a marantz yet , and contrary to anothers post , I don't have deep pockets so I would do it just how I archive all of my photo work which is recorded on the same media. You never hear of photograhers saving their photos on cf cards. I , personally, keep them on my original hd that they were first downloaded on , then I burn a cd ( you could burn to dvd - I just save my dvd discs for making dvds ) , then I have 2 lacie firewires ( 120 g ) that are both backups. So I end up with the files in 4 separate places . I haven't lost a photo yet but there's always a " gods will " situation. I think the workflow is about the same for audio recorded on cf but since I haven't done it yet , it's all speculation based on my photo workflow. Hope we can get some real handson for the pmd660 ( or the 650 which should have the same issues ) thanks - Kurth

I wouldn't necessarily trust CDs that much. Some CDs and DVDs can degrade very fast. Poor quality media can just degrade by itself.

Good quality media stored in sunlight can also degrade quickly.

Also, some CDs cases will (ironically) scratch up the CD.

If you want tips on using CDs and DVDs for archival, check out
http://www.itl.nist.gov/div895/carefordisc/CDandDVDCareandHandlingGuide.pdf


At least with digital, you can losslessly make multiple backups of your media, so you can keep files kicking around your hard drive and have backups on DVDs.

<<<-- Originally posted by Kurth Bousman : >>>, and contrary to anothers post , I don't have deep pockets so I would do it just how I archive all of my photo work which is recorded on the same media. -->>>
Kurth, I wasn't referring to the cost of media but the physical size of the 660 which is just a tad large to be called pocket size. :)

Alex yeh, sorry - i reread your post and just misread the first pass. But I do have pockets big enough for the 660- I swear ! In the 70's and 80's , living in Austin , I had a brand new sony portable cassette recorder that I used to take to clubs and record the bands. It was about the same size and easily concealable. My recordings would have been alot better w/this marantz. And about the cd archiving problem - I totally agree. If it's important data- you should reburn every 2 years or so. Other than the archiving problem - I think cf cards are the perfect media. I think you can download a cf card like 50-100 thousand times. You sure can't do that to tape or minidisc. thanks Kurth

But the cost of CF cards could be considerable. If you're going on the road for several weeks and need to record several hours of audio a day at highest quality, unless you take your laptop with you to burn your CDs every night you're going to have to carry along several kilobucks worth of CF cards. A 1 gig card at about $100 - $150 or more holds 1.5 hours of PCM audio. A 74 min miniDisc holds just a little less than that for whopping $2.00 for the media. If you figure you'll bring home 15 hours of audio from your road trip away from the computer you use to burn your CDs, that means your media cost is going to be $1000 - $1500 for the CF recorder versus $25 for miniDisc. Granted you can resuse the cards once you've transferred the audio to CD so perhaps they really don't count as expendable media as such, still it means your recorder "kit" is more like $2000 for the recorder plus enough cards than $500 for the recorder alone and suddenly the $1250 cost of a pro level miniDisc starts to look like a bargain in comparison.

Steve

Yes. This same kind of conversation is going on about the new Panasonic prosumer HD camera that records onto solid state media. Everybody says solid state is going to be inexpensive someday but right now it is still pretty steep. The great thing about the Marantz is that you might be able to pop hard disks into the slot, and that is probably far less expensive --if somewhat more delicate-- than solid state cards. I think you can buy 5 GB microdrives for around US$200.

<<<-- Originally posted by Ignacio Rodriguez : Yes. This same kind of conversation is going on about the new Panasonic prosumer HD camera that records onto solid state media. Everybody says solid state is going to be inexpensive someday but right now it is still pretty steep. The great thing about the Marantz is that you might be able to pop hard disks into the slot, and that is probably far less expensive --if somewhat more delicate-- than solid state cards. I think you can buy 5 GB microdrives for around US$200. -->>>

Got curious and checked pricing on the B&H web site. Putting together professional kits with enough memory or media to allow approximately 10 hours recording time as uncompressed PCM wave format before haveing to move the files to CD or hard drive. Pro level recorders accepting balanced mikes with decent monitoring and metering, defeatable SCMS. Thinking 10 hours recording time as a nice safe number for an all-day event with some contingency reserve or for a documentary in the field rafting the Grand Canyon for several days, that sort of thing.

Rough prices ...
HHB MDP550 minidisk recorder + pack of 10 discs ~ $1520
Marantz PMD660 CF recorder + 7 1 gig cards ~ $1300
Marantz PMD670 CF recorder + 7 1 gig cards ~ $1575

So close as to be essentially the same cost.

Steve

NH800 Minidisc recorder + Mixpad 4 + 10 1 gig discs = $350

:)

Arne

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve House : But the cost of CF cards could be considerable. If you're going on the road for several weeks and need to record several hours of audio a day at highest quality, unless you take your laptop with you to burn your CDs every night you're going to have to carry along several kilobucks worth of CF cards. -->>>

If I'm going away for such a period then I'll certainly take a laptop and maybe an external hard drive along. Sure you could take a pocket full of CF cards but why would you? Let's not create a problem where there is none.

"I think cf cards are the perfect media. I think you can download a cf card like 50-100 thousand times. You sure can't do that to tape or minidisc."

Actually, a minidisc can in theory be rewritten a million times. Don't know how realistic that is, but I've never had one fail.

http://www.minidisc.org/faq_sec_3.html#_q10

Here is some info about the camera:

http://www.whatsnewatnab.com/search/code.php?code=031

well Ignacio , I've been avoiding the p2 camera threads because there was so much speculation and little real info and now this is the first pic I've seen and I now know why they haven't put out a photo like with jvc- It's bein feo ! - looks like a cross between a gl2 and dvx , with the gl2 winning!
well... thanks anyway amigo- Kurth