Joe Carney asked: Jan, can we expect the final coming of dv100 in an affordable camera. I remember that both Panasonic and JVC came up with that spec in the late 90's.

Actually what JVC was offering for HD was a 30Frame 720P, what we offer in the Varicam is 720P/60 and in the upcoming HDX400, 1080i

> Seeing that D9 and DVCPRO50 were interchangable (recording from one vtr to another), I figure that even though you are competitors, you will both come out with a superior answer to HDV. 4:2:2 I frame sounds like the real deal.

Well the JVC guys are chasing down the HDV dragon, and will be introducing their new $20,000 camera that they intimated about last year. We on the other hand think that what people want is a lowcost DVCPROHD. The editing solutions are already inplace with Apple FCP and Avid Express Pro HD.

>And I bet most will accept a new tape format if the quality is there. Anyway, thanks for the tip. Looking forward to the rest of this year.

But DVCPROHD is not a new tape format, but this little camera will not record to tape, rather to memory, P2 cards. No moving parts except those in the lens. I think it is going to change the world. But then what do I know.

Best regards,

Jan

Note from Chris Hurd: This thread was split from its original location at http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38727.

----->
... we just bought another DVX100A last week for an upcoming low-budget indie feature. We placed the order but had to wait almost two weeks to get it, because EVS was sold out! So I don't think there's any backlog of cameras, EVS literally had to wait for their shipment to come in, and the quote they gave us was "these things are selling like hotcakes". And EVS just raised their price by $100. <----

Wow Barry, that's interesting indeed. I made my statements based on the fact that it's a failrly common retail tactic to use rebates. Typically rebate=we've got too many of this model and must sell some. There can be different reasons for this of course. Jan's explanation of thwarting the grey market thugs is the first time I have heard of this tactic.

Besides, it's fun to stir the pot 'a little' sometimes. It gets folks talking.

regards,

=gb=

"But DVCPROHD is not a new tape format, but this little camera will not record to tape, rather to memory, P2 cards. No moving parts except those in the lens. I think it is going to change the world. But then what do I know."

I agree.. hell when balanced with the queries i get about the firestores this completely turns them obsolete.. i was going to actaulyl buy an FS4 for each cam, but when i found out about the P2 system being used for the DVCPROHD cams (i stand corected with the name of the format, as it was poitned out to me) ill gladly stick with tape until th new cams are out.

THIS is what its al about...

I'm really amped on the whole DVCPRO-HD thing. For one, as Jan says, it's *not* a new format -- it's been on the market for three years now. No variable compression artifacts, you can edit with desktop systems today, no long-form GOP...

But the P2 thing has some amazing advantages.

First, it's completely silent -- no moving parts, no noise.

Second, there are absolutely *no* dropouts of any type.

Third, the ruggedness and reliability are greatly improved -- there's a post on another forum of a guy testing the SPX800 (a P2 camera) and the salesman demo'ing it actually bounced it on the floor a few times, to demonstrate that there's just no dropout.

Fourth, it provides for potentially infinite record times -- assuming there's more than one P2 slot there. You can take a laptop computer with you, and when you start recording, as soon as one card is full the camera will automatically switch over to the next card. So you can pluck the "full" card out, and slide it right into your laptop's cardbus slot, copy the contents off to your hard disk, and then plug the card back in the camera. Using this technique you could get record times of -- well, as long as you have hard disk space for! Continuous recording of an 8-hour event? No problem, as long as you've got enough hard disk space!

Fifth, this could mean the end of needing to run out and buy blank tapes. With a couple of P2 cards and a laptop/hard disk, you'd have all the record time you'd ever need.

Sixth, your footage is ready to edit immediately. No capture at all, and you can actually edit from the cards themselves, you don't even have to copy the footage to your hard drive. In fact, apparently the SPX800 camera can be used as a sort of hard disk type of proxy itself -- you can plug the camera into your computer through a USB 2.0 cable and the computer will see it as an external hard disk, making all your footage (on the P2 cards that are plugged into the camera) available immediately, instant playback, instant transfer... I have no idea obviously about whether the new prosumer camera would have that same feature, but it sure sounds promising.

Oh, and seventh -- you don't need a deck! I was concerned about DVCPRO-HD for prosumers because the cheapest deck with a firewire port is $21,000... but you don't need a deck AT ALL --just plug the P2 cards straight into the computer... and because they're cardbus cards, you don't even need a memory card reader. If you want to export to DVCPRO-HD tape you'd need access to a tape deck, but for mastering HD-DVD's or blu-ray or whatever, you may not even need to buy a deck.

Oh, and eighth -- you don't have to be cabled to the camera! The world knows I love DV Rack and I'm buying an FS-4 the day they're released, but being tethered to the laptop (DV Rack) or to the HD recorder is annoying, and very limiting for some types of shooting. But with the P2 system, there's no cable involved, you just pop the card out and plug it into the laptop. I think that's a convenience that we'll really grow to love.

(but I still want to see a firewire output with on-the-fly downconversion, like the FX1/Z1 do, so we can still use DV Rack!)

Overall, very promising, I can't wait to see what gets actually announced... if it has all that we love about the DVX, and adds HD resolution and P2 recording, it could be a huge hit!

Jan, I thought 720/60p at 8bit 4:2:2 was the official dv100 spec?

<<<-- Originally posted by Joe Carney : Jan, I thought 720/60p at 8bit 4:2:2 was the official dv100 spec? -->>>

It can be either 1080i or 720P/60. We have two different cameras and both are DVCPROHD.

Best,

Jan

http://b-roll.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007904;p=2

Look for the post by Marvin and notice the bit about the card formats changing size.

The other problem is that P2 is prohibitively expensive for SD video, let alone HD!

Don't get me wrong, P2 is a great idea, but is way, way, way ahead of it's time.

If you're reading this Jan, I sure would like to know how DVCPROHD (100) can fit on Mini DV Tape. How is this even remotely possible without any additional compression?

Hi,

The tensile strength is just not there to record the DVCPROHD signal on an Mini-DV tape, it just cannot travel fast enough in the transport area.

Does that help?

Jan

Thanks for answering Jan (it's so sad that Panasonic is the only company with a rep that comes onto these boards.)

Jan, I don't know if you can answer this, but is this the variable frame rate a la the varicam? 24p with the possibility of under/overcranking would be pretty much the holy grail. 35mm depth of field and it would pretty much be perfection, but that's too much to hope for I know.
Also, when you say around the price of the Z1, are we talking the $5K range or the $10K range? I read in another forum to expect to pay around $10K, but I believe the Z1 is going for about $5K.
Again, sorry if you can't answer these questions, but I couldn't help myself. This cam really sounds amazing.

Unfortunately I really am under a lock down on information and cannot answer the question. I really wish I could. I am authorized to say three things. under $10,000, DVCPRO25/50/HD and 24P.

Stay tuned,

Jan

I'll make a stab in the dark guess.

DVCpro will record to the MiniDV tape in the camera.
DVCPro 50/HD will record to the P2 cards in the camera.

I think that the camera will probably be DVCpro25 out of the box so you can get shooting right away. But if you pay the extra for a P2 card or two you can start recording HD footage with it, hence the under $10,000 figure. Say, $4k for the camera, and another $4k for enough P2 to make HD recordings?

Sounds okay to me if that is the case. It will mean that although it will be expensive to get a P2 card for the camera at least Pansonic won't have compromised data rate just to go to MiniDV tape.

According to this, it's 25 mbps to tape, 50 mbps to P2 cards.

Which would be clever, it's an attempt to future-proof the cam for a couple years at least until 1080p comes out, and also may give Panasonic a another revenue stream.

I am really really liking this cam. It's going to have great color and resolution, even at 25 mbps at dvcpro levels. And 24p.

It still won't look like film, but neither does the dvx.

It won't look like film, but in my opinion, will be the FIRST camcorder that the real low budget indie film makers can use to put their work on the BIG SCREEN and TRUELY COMPETE with the Hollywood system.

Not film, but it DOES work.

Panasonic . . . I . . . love . . . you.

Being a dvx owner and user for more than a year, and having done a couple of short films and broadcast commercials with it, I have to say that I'm really looking forward to this upcoming camera. However, there are a few things that seriously trouble me- the tape recording.

From what we can assume from Jan's post over here, there doesn't even seem to be a tape device watsoever. And Jan's the only "official"source, compared to all the rumours we hear around. I consider the lack of a tape device a real mistake. Mini dv is cheap and that's what's driving the thousands and thousands of sales of Mini DV type of pro (and prosumer) equipment. If this camera does have a tape device, it really does HAVE to have the capability to record both dvcpro50 and 25 to tape- not only to p2. And dvcpro50 must definetlty make it to tape- I'll state my reasons further ahead.

There could be, However, a very interesting twist and here's my two cents on the matter- Knowing that Panasonic guys are not dumb businessman and know their market (they did come up with the DVX) , than, by analysing Jan's statement, I assume that If both DVCPRO 25 and 50 will NOT be recorded to tape, it will NOT be recorded in P2 media but.... In SD Cards!! While these cannot compete in speed data transfer fast enough for an HD signal, it probably is enough to support the standard definition 50 and 25 streams.

Even tough this may be more economical, I would really hope to know just this tinny little detail from Jan... Is there tape on the camera? If so, Jan, please, oh please tell me that both 50 and 25 signals can be recorded to tape... The option of 4:2:2 color space is what will set yur camera above the rest in the SD low budget market- sticking with Tape dv 25 puts you AGAIN just on par with the XL2. And with expensive HD recording and current broadcast standard sticking to sd till probably 2008, please take this oportunity to place affordable PROFESSIONAL recording SD media to low budget production houses (like mine!)

Hi Sergio,

<< it will NOT be recorded in P2 media but.... In SD Cards! >>

Just wanted to point out, that P2 media already are SD cards. P2 media is simply an array of four SD cards held within a PC card adapter. See my link regarding P2 media information for more details.

;-)

Doesn't a standard SD card have a much lower ability to handle high data streams? I think that was the point. Single SD cards rather than expensive arrays.

A good set up would be tape for 25 mbps, and P2 cards for the 50mbps.

I agree. Except it's not really clear if it has P2 *and* a tape transport. I'm hoping it's both!

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : Hi Sergio,

<< it will NOT be recorded in P2 media but.... In SD Cards! >>

Just wanted to point out, that P2 media already are SD cards. P2 media is simply an array of four SD cards held within a PC card adapter. See my link regarding P2 media information for more details.

;-) -->>>


Woops, sorry, Chris, just seemed to make sense...But, still, with 2 gb sd cards coming to the market, and seing their price, it's really hard to accept a 4000 Dollar P2 4gig "magazine"... Acceptable probably only for HD, but definatly not for any type of SD recording, may it be dvcpro 50 or 25!

I read a long time ago that the original hope for the P2 system was to have 4, 4GB SD cards in the PCMCIA adapter, making the magazine 16GB.

If Panny wanted to they could just include largest cards available, only with camera sales, for much cheaper than they are on the market. Although, I admit, I don't know how that might affect the rest of their flash-mem business.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittenden : Hi, The tensile strength is just not there to record the DVCPROHD signal on an Mini-DV tape, it just cannot travel fast enough in the transport area. Does that help? Jan -->>>

No it doesn't.
Why is the strength not there?
Why the strength is there in dvcpro50 cameras to record double speed and in varicam to quadruple speed?
If some minidv-tape substance is too weak (how on earth you can still rewind/fastforward them?), just bring a little bit stronger minidv-tape to markets.
Or do you mean that your new camera's motor does not have strength to roll the tape fast enough? And stronger motor would cost over ten bucks more?

btw, can't you use big dv-casettes (not dvcam/dvcpro/hd) to record with dvcpro vtr's? If I remember correctly I used them sometimes in the 90's...

I can clearly foresee this scene somewhere far, far away, where electricity is not available and cameraman's other p2-card is filling up and the other one is in the laptop just finishing transfer and battery from laptop dies. Loud echo bouncing from stonewalls: "NOOOooo..."

<< I can clearly foresee this scene somewhere far, far away, where electricity is not available and cameraman's other p2-card is filling up and the other one is in the laptop just finishing transfer and battery from laptop dies. >>

The responsibility of having enough power to do the job falls squarely upon the shoulders of the shooter. An experienced videographer brings more than enough battery power to a field shoot... there's no excuse for running out of juice.

<<<-- Originally posted by Toke Lahti : <<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittenden : Hi, The tensile strength is just not there to record the DVCPROHD signal on an Mini-DV tape, it just cannot travel fast enough in the transport area. Does that help? Jan -->>>

>No it doesn't. Why is the strength not there?

It is Metal Evaporated tape. Not Metal Particle tape. It is thinner than the MP tape. Take a look at the size of the 60 minute tapes. The DVCPRO tape is twice as large.

>Why the strength is there in dvcpro50 cameras to record double speed and in varicam to quadruple speed?

We record DVCPRO formats on Metal Particle Tape not ME, much thicker, more robust.


>If some minidv-tape substance is too weak (how on earth you can still rewind/fastforward them?), just bring a little bit stronger minidv-tape to markets.

You wouldn't be able to get a useable time on them. It is the thinness of the backing.

>Or do you mean that your new camera's motor does not have strength to roll the tape fast enough? And stronger motor would cost over ten bucks more?

No it is about the tape and the DVCPRO formats.

>btw, can't you use big dv-casettes (not dvcam/dvcpro/hd) to record with dvcpro vtr's? If I remember correctly I used them sometimes in the 90's...

No, that would be out of the SMPTE Format. There are larger MP tapes for longer record times, but ME is not an acceptable medium for the DVCPRO formats.

>I can clearly foresee this scene somewhere far, far away, where electricity is not available and cameraman's other p2-card is filling up and the other one is in the laptop just finishing transfer and battery from laptop dies. Loud echo bouncing from stonewalls: "NOOOooo..."

I have heard that same cry from the guys that ran out tape or ran out of batteries while using tape. The thing is the P2 Card does not lose the recording, it will still be on the P2 card until you wipe it clean. This is a scenario that has no long term ramification other than, point out the need for pre-production planning. This is not new to the job description.

Hope that helps,

Jan

<<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittenden: It is Metal Evaporated tape. Not Metal Particle tape. It is thinner than the MP tape. Take a look at the size of the 60 minute tapes. The DVCPRO tape is twice as large.
We record DVCPRO formats on Metal Particle Tape not ME, much thicker, more robust.
You wouldn't be able to get a useable time on them. It is the thinness of the backing. -->>>

Thanks Jan for clarification.

How do you define "useable time"?
If 8 minits in p2 card is useable time, then why wouldn't same time on tape also be useable?

And if you would enable only 24p/25p in HD (ca. 40 Mbps) with tape, then the "miniDV-sized-casette-filled-with-dvcpro-tape" would last ca. 20 minits!

Remember that movie industry has lived mainly with 400ft magazines (less than 4 minits) for over a century...

I think this would be optimal solution for next couple of years, if you could shoot normal fps (24/25/30) to tape and cranked overspeed (up to 60fps(100Mbps)) to p2.

<<<-- I have heard that same cry from the guys that ran out tape or ran out of batteries while using tape. -->>>

Well, you know that isn't the same.
When going to remote locations, you can always buy a dozen of extra tapes so you'll never run out of them and can use them in the next project anyway.
When p2 card costs half of what camera does, you just can't buy dozen of them for "just in case".

Anyway, thanks again for listening us users and I hope that you pass these opinions to your design department.

<<<-- Originally posted by Toke Lahti :
Remember that movie industry has lived mainly with 400ft magazines (less than 4 minits) for over a century...
-->>>

I guess it depends on which country's film industry you mean. In the US, for many years 400 ft has been standard for 16 mm and 1,000 ft for 35 mm. Each has a running time of 10-11 minutes. If you mean countries where Arriflex 2Cs (and the old Eclair CM-3s) were routinely used (inside metal or fiberglass blimps) even on sound stages, yeah, 400-ft 35-mm loads were more common. But now, Panaflexes, self-blimped Arris, and Moviecams -- all accepting 1,000-ft loads -- are pretty common everywhere.

<<<-- Originally posted by Toke Lahti :
How do you define "useable time"?
If 8 minits in p2 card is useable time, then why wouldn't same time on tape also be useable?

On tape, I think longer run times are expected.

>Remember that movie industry has lived mainly with 400ft magazines (less than 4 minits) for over a century...

Actually I think these are 10 minute loads, but I may be wrong.

<<<-- I have heard that same cry from the guys that ran out tape or ran out of batteries while using tape. -->>>

>Well, you know that isn't the same. When going to remote locations, you can always buy a dozen of extra tapes so you'll never run out of them and can use them in the next project anyway.

But you were talking about running out of battery power and frankly tape doesn't work too well without battery power either. It is a 6P Principle thing.

>When p2 card costs half of what camera does, you just can't buy dozen of them for "just in case".

But as long as I have battery, I don't need those extra tapes, now do I. ;-)

All the best, and thanks for sharing your concerns and ideas,

Jan

Hi Jan,

I just sold my HD-1 to purchase an FX-1. We are about to shoot a movie that has snow scenes in it. Out here in California, some snow sticks around until late Spring. Knowing this, would you recommend I go ahead and by a Sony now or would my patience be rewarded if I wait to buy the new Panny? I dare you to answer this one:) But I'll sing at your wedding if you do.

<<<-- Originally posted by Betsy Moore :
I just sold my HD-1 to purchase an FX-1. We are about to shoot a movie that has snow scenes in it. Out here in California, some snow sticks around until late Spring. Knowing this, would you recommend I go ahead and by a Sony now or would my patience be rewarded if I wait to buy the new Panny? I dare you to answer this one:) But I'll sing at your wedding if you do. -->>>

Betsy,

Please understand that there is no way in my heart of hearts that I could ever recommend you to purchase the Sony camera for a number of reasons. 1. I work for Panasonic. 2. The Sony camera is based on a consumer format and I think that is the last thing a professional needs to concern herself with at a time when money and effort are being spent in earnest. 3. Shooting snow with a camera that is limited in its dynamic range will prove to be the most challenging shooting you have ever done.

Coupled with all of that I know when the new Panasonic camera will be out and frankly it will not make the spring thaw in California. So my recommendation is to either rent the camera for your shoot and struggle with its challanges and then save what you have left over for our new camera or buy a DVX100A as it will still have market value as a SD camera once our new HD camera is out. You should be able to sell it quite easily if you really want to be in the HD domain. ;-)

(Now I know that is flame material on a board where there is a high concentration of HDV lovers, but there is nothing that anyone can say that will make me take it back. I have my Dale Earnhardt flame retardant suit on.)

Thank you for the offer of singing at my wedding, but I actually just got married in October to the most wonderful man. We had a bagpiper for our gathering and recessional, that was a treat that none of our guests had ever had the pleasure of hearing before. The acoustics of a small church with the richness of the bagpipe's throaty song. We were married in the church where Patrick Henry said "Give me liberty or give me death."

Anyhow, I hope that I have not offended you with my response, but you did put me in a position.

Best regards,

Jan

<<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittenden: On tape, I think longer run times are expected. -->>>

Can you explain your logics with this?
Why would somebody complain when $10 tape has only twice the length than $2000 p2 card?

<<<-- Actually I think these are 10 minute loads, but I may be wrong. -->>>

4-perf 35mm 24fps is 90 feet/min.

<<<-- But you were talking about running out of battery power and frankly tape doesn't work too well without battery power either. -->>>

I was trying to tell that with these p2 cards, you'll have to keep on eye of both camera batteries AND laptop (or whatever you use to move video out of p2) batteries. That's twice the trouble compared today.
KISS principle is very needed in more demanding situations, so option for HD to tape would be lifesaver in many cases.

And if you would like to double that tape length, how much bigger vcr part would small dvcpro casette need compared to miniDV? Two cubic inches?

<<<-- Originally posted by Lawrence Bansbach: I guess it depends on which country's film industry you mean. In the US, for many years 400 ft has been standard for 16 mm and 1,000 ft for 35 mm. Each has a running time of 10-11 minutes. If you mean countries where Arriflex 2Cs (and the old Eclair CM-3s) were routinely used (inside metal or fiberglass blimps) even on sound stages, yeah, 400-ft 35-mm loads were more common. But now, Panaflexes, self-blimped Arris, and Moviecams -- all accepting 1,000-ft loads -- are pretty common everywhere. -->>>

I guess you are right about depening on country.
Here in Finland Arri LT/535/435/BL all are rented usually with 400 ft mags.
And of course getting 1000 ft rolls, you need to place special order and it might take some time.
Anyway Finland is so small area economically that more than half of all those ca. dozen of long feature films made yearly, are shot on 16mm or hd.

<<<-- Originally posted by Toke Lahti :
Can you explain your logics with this? Why would somebody complain when $10 tape has only twice the length than $2000 p2 card?

Who is to say how much the card is, this is in the flux of changing. Just like the price of SD Memory. I have 2 64MB cards, one cost me $124, and the other cost me $32. Frankly, folks in the DV world have been used to 60 minutes. DVCPRO50 has a max load of 30 on tape. So on tape there is an expectation. With P2 it is still a technology that has the benefit of continuing R & D. And there are over 100 companies doing R & D in SD memory. These can only increase in size and reduce in cost. So try to think of P2 as medialess technology, You can read and write 100,000 times. A different frame of reference is needed.

>I was trying to tell that with these p2 cards, you'll have to keep on eye of both camera batteries AND laptop (or whatever you use to move video out of p2) batteries. That's twice the trouble compared today. KISS principle is very needed in more demanding situations, so option for HD to tape would be lifesaver in many cases.

My point is that what ever the plan is, for the production, that is what you plan for, so saying that you would run out of batteries is more of a reflection on the lack of planning. Planning is everything in production or at least that is the way it looks from here. So you don't have to deal with planning to buy extra tape, you plan to make sure you have enough batteries, it is simple either way.

>And if you would like to double that tape length, how much bigger vcr part would small dvcpro casette need compared to miniDV? Two cubic inches? -->>>

There is no small DVCPRO cassette. It is a Medium cassette in comparison to the Mini DV. Since you do not know the form factor, I can only steer you to a dealer that sells both the DVX and the SDX or Varicam. Pop the side off the DVX and then one of the other two. There is a significant difference in the size of the mechanism. Once you have done this you can make a more educated guess as to the additional space required. It is surprizingly more than what you guess here.

All the best,

Jan

Howdy from Texas,

Jan wrote...

<< Now I know that is flame material on a board where there is a high concentration of HDV lovers >>

Actually there is a high concentration of Everything lovers -- we try not to be too centric to one format or another, and besides, we don't do flaming! (Or put it this way, if flaming is done, it has a tendency to mysteriously disappear).

For Betsy Moore: sorry you missed out on the chance to sing at Jan's wedding! Sounds like the bagpiper was a class act, though. Cheers,

Jan, just wanted to say thanks for the info. Having a rep on a forum like this I think shows a hell of a lot of goodwill towards the customer and it is greatly appreciated.

Jan, can you tell us at this point if Panasonic will let us use third-party cards in the slot? I guess you have read my speculation on using IBM microdrive-equipped PC-cards... of course a hard disk is somewhat less reliable, slower and consumes slighly more power... but it would make sense to use hard disks while the economics of solid state get better.

Don't know whether they'd work or not according to the connectors yet, but... would those microdrives work at all yet? I looked at some specs and they seem *really* slow... something like 36Mbps transfer rate, which wouldn't be enough for even DVCPRO50.

The price is compelling, but I don't know if it'd actually work...

<<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittendenz: Who is to say how much the card is, this is in the flux of changing. Just like the price of SD Memory. -->>>

Yep, somewhere was already these rumours about 1TB p2 card and when and what price, but I'd guess that even id Panny subsidizes p2's and p2's become "main stream", it's quite impossible to beat Moore's Law with this. So one might get 8GB p2 with $1k in 2006 and 32GB with $500 in 2008, but question is: what before that?

<<<-- Frankly, folks in the DV world have been used to 60 minutes. DVCPRO50 has a max load of 30 on tape. So on tape there is an expectation. -->>>

So to go on with that logics; 60mins for miniDV, 30mins for dvcpro50 and 20mins for dvcproHD?

<<<-- There is no small DVCPRO cassette. It is a Medium cassette in comparison to the Mini DV. Since you do not know the form factor, I can only steer you to a dealer that sells both the DVX and the SDX or Varicam. Pop the side off the DVX and then one of the other two. There is a significant difference in the size of the mechanism. Once you have done this you can make a more educated guess as to the additional space required. It is surprizingly more than what you guess here. -->>>

Sorry about my sloppy choise of word, but let's change that "small" to "medium" and then be happy.
And believe me, I know dvcpro; I've shot one documentary and one interactive movie with it and many hours of other things.
So can you now tell me how surprizingly significant the difference is?
And lets remember that ENG cameras are not designed just to be as small as possible.
If one compares JVC GY-DV500 with Panny AJ-D410A, there isn't so remarkable difference in size, is there? (At least the weight is same.)

But the JVC and the AJ-D410 are full size camcorders. What is your point?

My point was look at the size of the transport, and that is the difference.

Jan

Jan,
My point was that there is no big difference its size with miniDV and dvcpro ENG cameras.
So there don't have to be big difference in smaller cameras either.

Surely we don't think that dvcpro transport mechanism has somehow reached its final state and perfect design considering the size, even that there hasn't even been any attempt to make smaller sized dvcpro camera than ENG.

So, I'd like to see smaller camera with 40Mbps recording mechanism to miniDV sized tape for 20 minutes. That's just my opinion and maybe developing that kind of vcr part is just too expensive.

Whenever I buy a new camera, I'd like it to be a long time investment also ecologically and not just disposable camera that one replaces every year. This tape+p2 solution sounds really nice, if it would be possible to record HD to tape some three years and after that when p2's have become main stream continue with same camera using them.

Adding tape mechanism just for SD seems a little bit backwards, because that needs smaller storage space, so need for using tape for that might cease even next year. Also need for SD anyway is decreasing when one has option for HD (and better than HDV) in the same camera.

How much cheaper the new camera would be without tape mechanism after all?
Not price of a one p2 card?

I think getting on Jan for a decision made by a higher up is pointless. If the tape drive is there, then it is there. Just like the Sony, there is an option to downconvert to SD (for the tape) and pop it into your existing vtr/workflow situation.
geez folks. For those who don't already own a dvx100a, this is a good deal. While there are good points about not having a tape drive at all, I'm sure someone would complain if there wasn't. (like those of us who are looking for a general purpose camera for all sorts of work which defines most prosumer/independent types.) Maybe I want the camera and will have to wait as i save up for the P2 cards. Maybe the downconvert to SD will look awesome. maybe....

Can't please everyone, even before the camera isn't 'officially' anounced.

I'll make up my mind about the Sony Z1 and the new Pany after soemone gets there hands on it in the real world. Lots of things to consider, tape drive being the least fo them for me. Picture quality above all else. At least with the Sony I won't have to reinvest in all new equipment/software. Something I have to consider.

<<<-- Originally posted by Toke Lahti : Remember that movie industry has lived mainly with 400ft magazines (less than 4 minits) for over a century...

I think this would be optimal solution for next couple of years, if you could shoot normal fps (24/25/30) to tape and cranked overspeed (up to 60fps(100Mbps)) to p2.-->>>

it's always mildly irritating for me to read posts from people who think that a video camera should be designed with film as the distribution format... film is ugly and expensive! the framerates are way too slow to allow for fast movement, and it's a dying format.

while i love the depth and contrast you get with film, the numbers don't add up as a distribution format... these days hollywood makes more money off of dvd's than they do film, 55% of the internet-connected people in america have broadband, and hdtv will be the norm here in the states in just a few years... btw, anybody ever hear of digital projection?

people who want to put video on film tend to be a very vocal minority that has way too much influence on the design of video cameras... engineering in things like those bastard film framerates unnecessarily increases the cost of the camera for the majority of customers, who want to distribute video, not film.

beyond that, the problem with this thread isn't in the cost of p2 cards... it's the abysmal lack of silicone(aka codec) development by panasonic, sony, jvc, etc.

for example, in the world of compression and codecs, if dvcpro hd was develped 4 years ago(?), it's ancient history... to give you a real-world comparison, no compressionist worth his salt would ever make an internet video clip with a codec that old... why should video pros have to compromise?

what should be happening right now is the implementation of modern i-frame codecs for video acquisition... if you look at windows media, h.264, even cineform, the technology has been around plenty long enuf to put it on silicone... in fact, dvd players using some of those chipsets(codecs) already exist, although probably not in a true i-frame format.

mpeg2-based hdv is incredibly disappointing... for that bitrate, you could have better than dvcprohd quality, if you were using a real codec.

anyway, that's my 2 cents :-)

<<<-- Originally posted by Toke Lahti : Jan, My point was that there is no big difference its size with miniDV and dvcpro ENG cameras. So there don't have to be big difference in smaller cameras either. >>

Actually there is a difference. The JVC is oversized in its body so that it can be shoulder mounted. The transport chassis is a much different size. But the AJ-D410 is also the large cassette. The AJSDX900's casset is larger than the JVC by at least half again, if not a little more.

<< Surely we don't think that dvcpro transport mechanism has somehow reached its final state and perfect design considering the size, even that there hasn't even been any attempt to make smaller sized dvcpro camera than ENG. >>

Actually I think it is a wonderful piece of engineering. Works fine, lasts a long time. If it isn't broken whyt fix it. The smaller DVCPRO camera can easily be accomodated with P2.

<< So, I'd like to see smaller camera with 40Mbps recording mechanism to miniDV sized tape for 20 minutes. That's just my opinion and maybe developing that kind of vcr part is just too expensive. >>

The problem is that would be hugely expensive, when I can do 16 minutes of DVCPRO to one 4GB card.

<< Whenever I buy a new camera, I'd like it to be a long time investment also ecologically and not just disposable camera that one replaces every year. This tape+p2 solution sounds really nice, if it would be possible to record HD to tape some three years and after that when p2's have become main stream continue with same camera using them. >>

I think you are worrying too much, wait till you see what it is. If it works for you then buy it, if not then there are other solutions. My feeling is that this is a very workable solution.

<< Adding tape mechanism just for SD seems a little bit backwards, because that needs smaller storage space, so need for using tape for that might cease even next year. Also need for SD anyway is decreasing when one has option for HD (and better than HDV) in the same camera. >>

We haven't said whether we are even adding tape to this camera. This entire discussion is about whether DVCPRO and its higher forms could be recorded on a minDV cassette. Frankly I think that SD production will be here for a good number of years, but this camera will be flexible. Don't be premature in saying one way or the other. P2 is a very cool workflow, but it requires that you move away from Tape acquisition.

<< How much cheaper the new camera would be without tape mechanism after all? Not price of a one p2 card? >>

If I answered that question I would be in serious trouble. Somethings I can talk about, some things I cannot.

Best regards,

Jan

<<<-- Originally posted by Dan Euritt: mpeg2-based hdv is incredibly disappointing... for that bitrate, you could have better than dvcprohd quality, if you were using a real codec. -->>>

Acquisition and distribution codecs are whole diffrent ballgame.
Compression should be done only to final product after all effecting and color correcting. Otherwise you just loose quality with any lossy compression.

And using interframe compression as a native codec in editing is extremely hard. Every time you move in a timeline, computer has to calculate eg 15 hd frames. That's about 60 times more pixels than with intraframe sd codec. And calculating that compression on top of that.
No wonder all newest edit systems use somekind of intermedia codec with hdv. And all better video formats are i-frame only.

To this perspective it is sad and surprising that after a decade of 25Mbps dv, we're given a new "super" format that is still using the same bitrate(hdv).
It's like telling your 486 is good enough, you don't need any better.

We should be heading to bigger bitrates and greater color depths, but it seems, that quality does not sell in consumer/prosumer class anymore.
So it's all about cheapest possible way with quality that is barely acceptable for majority of consumers.
This leads to that consumer products get cheaper and less quality and high end professional products that gets all the time more expensive, because their volume gets smaller as consumer products get more popular.
And then there is nothing in between. You can't get s-vhs vcr in price range between 300 and 3000. Only cheaper or more expensive.
You can't get hd-camera between 5000 and 50000.
Can't get real hd monitor with 1080 lines between 2000 and 10000.

So I hope Panasonic changes things a little bit with this new camera.

Maybe some day every cinematographer can own the tool of his/her craft, like writer can own a pen, without having to rent it, everytime he/she wishes to write.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittenden: Actually I think it is a wonderful piece of engineering. Works fine, lasts a long time. If it isn't broken whyt fix it. -->>>

Speaking of broken, you know why Finnish Broadcasting Company abandoned dvcpro? Because those vcr's were always in repair :-(

<<<-- I think you are worrying too much, wait till you see what it is. If it works for you then buy it, if not then there are other solutions. My feeling is that this is a very workable solution. -->>>

I'm not worrying. I'm speculating and chatting because I'm so exited.
My biggest problem is how can I wait to get this new Panny.
If I need real 16:9 camera before that I'll have to take z1...

>I looked at some specs and they seem *really*
> slow... something like 36Mbps transfer rate

I think 40 Mbps is enough for 24 fps DVCPROHD, and I also think two striped IBM microdrives can fin in a the PC-card form factor (a single one fits into a CompactFlash card which is roughly half the size).

I must say that, like Toke, I am also very excited by the possibilties of going tapeless. And I want to clearly state my wish of P2 being open so we can pop in hard drives, wireless network cards or whatever else the market may offer. Please please please Jan don't dumb-down these new cameras just to try get us all to buy Panasonic P2 cards, because then many of us will just have to prefer offerings from other companies. If P2 is really as inexpensive as it should be, don't worry, we will buy the cards from you after all, but give us the choice.

<<<-- Originally posted by Toke Lahti :
Speaking of broken, you know why Finnish Broadcasting Company abandoned dvcpro? Because those vcr's were always in repair :-(

That I find to be probably less than the entire story. The reason I say that is due to the number of machines in the US market and the fact that they have been some of the most durable and reliable machines brought into the broadcast ndustry. So when someone says something like this, these is a larger story behind it. Someone had another agenda, and yet what was said was this. Tell you what, email me the name of your contact at Finnish Broadcasting and I wil have my Panasonic person in Europe talk to him. You can send me that information off list so that names can be held discreetly.


>If I need real 16:9 camera before that I'll have to take z1...

You can always rent.

Best regards,

Jan

<<<-- Originally posted by Ignacio Rodriguez : > Please please please Jan don't dumb-down these new cameras just to try get us all to buy Panasonic P2 cards, -->>>

Hi Ignacio,

The objective is to get you to buy the camera so that you use it to make a living. The fact that you all are thinking we would dumb down the camera to sell P2 Cards, PUHLease! The only thing that I know is that pictures sell cameras, that is, the pictures that the cameras make sell cameras. The DVX sold cameras, continues to sell cameras. The SDX900 sells cameras. The Varicam sells cameras. If these cameras made ugly pictures I would expect you all not to buy them or rent them.

When this new camera hits, you will see.

Best regards,

Jan

>The DVX sold cameras, continues to sell cameras.
> The SDX900 sells cameras. The Varicam sells cameras.
> If these cameras made ugly pictures I would expect you
> all not to buy them or rent them.

Right. I agree totally. The imager portion of the camera, it's optics and sensors, it's ADC, NR and compression, and to some degree it's controls and ergonomics, are the most important part of the package. It's expensive to design, build and market, so we expect to pay for that. It's Panasonic so we know the CCDs are just great, have awesome lattitude, no vertical smear, can do real proscan... so we pay for that. Settled.

My concern is with the other part, that handles storage. It is just as important in terms of it's neccesity, but is not the decisive factor that marks the main difference from one product to the next. The camera's data storage hardware can be made from off-the-shelf components that are mass-produced, the educated consumer knows this and expects --as I expect-- that this part of the camera should not be expensive and should give us options. The rumors of these two new models having both a DV25 tape transport and a PC-card make sense. The camera shots DV out-of-the-box and can also grow to do HD --real HD with the DV codec, not MPEG2-- cool! But, since it's a camera with the professional user in mind, why not drop the tape transport alltogether and let us choose whether we want hard drives , solid state, or networking:

1: connect P2 cards if we are willing to spend the money on them for the added reliability, lifespan and low power consumption. This is for the pro guy who is taking the camera on a trip to everest or isdoing mission-critical stuff and cannot afford to drop a frame or lose a take.

2: connect PC-card hard disks that are almost as convenient as solid state but much less expensive (these can be Panasonic-branded too, but we want options). This is for the people that do non-fiction, weddings, students... people that can live with better-than-tape reliability but would have to buy a tape-based camera like the Sony because they can't afford the P2 cards just yet.

3: connect a computer or deck directly in a studio setting where portability is not an issue. This is a great option of studio work. Why buy tape, solid state memory or hard disks when we can write straight to the NLE in real time? This could also be done through a wireless network card inserted in the slot, would be awesome for news coverage. One guy get's out of the car with the camera, the other guy captures to a laptop in real time and starts editing as soon as the action ends. By the time they are back at the statin the story is ready to air.

It is my opinion that giving us this kind of flexibility and focusing on the real "camera" part of the product (no pun intended) will be the best deal for you, because you will be making money off the part that has the highest added value. Let the market take care of the part that has the less value. We all buy your great cameras and add storage from whichever vendor we choose. You are happy, we are happy. You have low cost solid state P2? Great, then we buy into that too. And we are all happier still, see?

Of course Jan I do not expect you can discuss Panasonic's strategy in detail. Don't worry about that. I find it great that you hang out with us on this board so Panasonic can know a little more about what we need and you can educate us more about what Panasonic has to offer. Other vendors should be taking note! So a big Thank You and please accept my opinion as honest and constructive, which is what I am trying it to be. I never meant to imply that you actually are dumbing down the cameras, allthough I have been known to say that aout other manufacterers. I am just asking you not to. If you are not, all the better then! I'll get my PC-card hard disks ready! ;-)

I also think two striped IBM microdrives can fit in the PC-card form factor (a single one fits into a CompactFlash card which is roughly half the size).
Okay, now that would be just fascinating. A two-drive RAID on a PC-card? I'd buy it just for the "cool" factor! :)