Panasonic's P2 solid state flash memory recording system is basically an array of four high-speed, high-capacity SD (Secure Digital) memory cards arranged within a PCMCIA card adapter, which fits easily into a PC card slot within PC-slot-equipped computers and cameras. The advantage is that the SD cards are rewrittable many thousands of times, and their data can rapidly be transferred into an editing system (eliminating the need for "video capture," previously limited to real-time speed).

Check out Panasonic's P2 information page at:
https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/sales_o/p2/index.html

Am I the only one not really buying into the P2 trend?

Gee, memorycards = expensive, special made memorycards = really expensive. If a 4gig card sell for more then $100 it's too much..

Why is this to much?
I am one off those people that wont make due with running arund with a laptop in my back-pack. I need to stay mobile and I really don't want to carry more then I have to. (not to mention the additional time it takes to dump every 10 minutes) They might have a fresh gadget that tranfers the p2 info into a larger drive.. (but we have to carry that around too, and we also need to buy it)

I travle a lot and I sure don't want to have to bring a laptop, have to tranfer the cards into the laptop and when I come home (have 100gigs of video) and tranfer the 100gigs to my ordinary editing computer.. Too many steps and time consuming

So what I see is:

* low recording times (around 10 minutes)
* high priced cards
* Need to buy and carry around additional equipment

I REALLY hope the panasonic people have a good solution for this.
If not, may them burn in hell for making a awsome camera and not be smart enough to see that people need to be able to shoot for long periods of time without having to dump to aditional equipment.

A smart solution could be:

* Bundle with the camera package 5x100minutes worth P2 cards
* Bundle with the camera package a 500gig hardrive in a small and lightweight case with a firewire interface to transfer to computer and a p2 interface to dump.

But we all know that's not going to happen..

Instead we buy a $5000 camera with $5000 worth of additional equipment..


I really hope they have a good solution to not having to dump every 10 minutes.. Anyone have any toughts to this?

The only problem I would have is the P2 card is only good for about 8 to 16 minutes. If the cards where cheap that might be ok. But if the cards are in the thousands I think this camera will be out of reach for small guys like myself.

I wonder if you will be able to plug the camera into the computer and download. The picture shows the P2 card sliding into a slot on a computer. My computer can't do that.

3-P2 cards $12,000

new Mac $2,000

New camera $5,000 (just a wild guess)

Divorce lawyer, $2,000 ( another guess) after the wife found out I spent that much!!

Hopefully it'll have FireWire. If it does, think: FireStore. Could ease the strain on the marriage.

still, additional equipment to carry around.. and to buy?
Is it only me, or do everyone else accept the additioal thing/weight/cost?

interesting i started a thread about archiving issues with the p2 system, but shooting would be just as problematic, and additional hardrive would eat up more battery juice, or need its own power supply, more wieght...

i guess shooting pro 50 with the new cam would be more like shooting on film, short and expensive with a lot to carry....

If the gear is small enough, one decent shoulder support could carry it all, probably.

Its back to the *tape* *cough*... errr i meant drawing board..

:) may be panny might sock us all and use DVCproHD mini tape vesion!

Well, Jan from Panasonic said:

No tape, just P2..

I thought she said on Feb 14th:

Unfortunately I really am under a lock down on information and cannot answer the question. I really wish I could. I am authorized to say three things. under $10,000, DVCPRO25/50/HD and 24P.

She did say that, John... but conceivably, all three of those formats could be going to P2.

Yes, or to tape. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the camera would at least have a miniDV tape section in it, but maybe the HD and DVCPRO-50 would only record to memory (or perhaps firewire to an external recorder?)

Speculation is just that -- speculation. We don't know what they have planned for us yet. Recently they've been on a pretty good roll of hits (DVX, SDX, DVC30, GS400, etc) so I would expect that they have a good plan in store. Already they've announced a 60gb P2-reading hard disk. I don't know the size of it, but if it's the size of the portable USB2 drive I have, it could be smaller than a pack of cards, and you just plug a P2 card into the drive and it automatically offloads the contents. Hard disks are cheap - with a few of these, you could theoretically record continuously, perpetually, swapping out just a couple of P2 cards, emptying them onto the hard disk when they're full...

The possibility exists for a firewire tape system, or a firewire hard disk system, or firewire to a laptop as well. Panasonic's already got DVCPRO-HD working over firewire, you can firewire it straight into FCP-HD or Avid Express HD. So I'd expect firewire streaming too, which means it's just up to the FireStore guys (or Panasonic themselves) to produce a direct-to-disk recorder. I kind of (okay, I really) like the idea of the P2 card-reader hard disk, so the drive isn't tethered to the camera at all... but man, if the camera supports direct streaming of HD over the firewire port, maybe you wouldn't need *any* P2 cards?

Anyway, it's all speculation until Panasonic actually announces the product.

hmm.. well dvcpro tapes arent really all that big.. botu the size of a digital8 tape... so iit would be possible to retain small size.. however i really do think Pana wont be going that way due to costs... its also a whole new way of thinking and theres not much education out there with regard to the ebenfits of P2, let alone HDD recording

i sit and wait like a bride to be.... lol

<<<-- Originally posted by John Galt : I thought she said on Feb 14th:

Unfortunately I really am under a lock down on information and cannot answer the question. I really wish I could. I am authorized to say three things. under $10,000, DVCPRO25/50/HD and 24P. -->>>

Jan Crittenden wrote on February 6th, 2005 12:19 PM:

"But DVCPROHD is not a new tape format, but this little camera will not record to tape, rather to memory, P2 cards. No moving parts except those in the lens. I think it is going to change the world. But then what do I know."

<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green :
Hard disks are cheap - with a few of these, you could theoretically record continuously, perpetually, swapping out just a couple of P2 cards, emptying them onto the hard disk when they're full... -->>>

Yes hardisks in general are. But their special made wont be.
Even if you had a 100 of these 60gb hardrives, do you think it would be ok or a good workflow to every 4 minutes of shooting have to stop to change the card and put the other card to be tranferred to the hardrive? What about when your client is right behind your sholder and are worried about every minute they have to pay for. Or when you are out on a longer trip haveing to shoot a lot of footage?

Remeber the 4gig card only hold about 4 minutes of film. To me, that's a job by it self changeing the cards all the time. That's why they have camera loaders for film.. A 60GB hardrive only holds 60 minutes of footage, so their hardrive is worth in time as much as a tape, but costs over 10 times more!

Maybe the P2HD will be announced for release in about 2 years. But then they will also announce a native 16:9 DVX200 lead free for release now. From reading the post about the P2 media it still sounds a few years off. Not enough storage and high cost.

<<<-- Originally posted by Andreas Fernbrant : <<<--

Remeber the 4gig card only hold about 4 minutes of film. To me, that's a job by it self changeing the cards all the time. That's why they have camera loaders for film.. A 60GB hardrive only holds 60 minutes of footage, so their hardrive is worth in time as much as a tape, but costs over 10 times more! -->>>

I think your arithmetic is a little off. A mini-DV cassette, at about 11 GB, holds about 1 hour. DVCPRO HD, at four times the data rate (100 Mbps), would require 44-45 GB for an hour (so 60 GB should hold about 80 minutes), regardless of whether 24p or 60p is recorded. But there is speculation that the P2 card format might permit a reduced data rate of 40 Mbps for 24p. If so, 60 GB would hold 2.5 x 80 minutes, or 200 minutes of 24p HD footage, and a 4-GB P2 card would hold about 13 minutes.

do you think it would be ok or a good workflow to every 4 minutes of shooting have to stop to change the card and put the other card to be tranferred to the hardrive? What about when your client is right behind your sholder and are worried about every minute they have to pay for.
Why do you have to stop anything? Just pull the full card out of the camera and keep recording on the empty card in the other slot. When the card is offloaded/empty, plug it back in. Using this technique you could theoretically record *endlessly*, rather than having to stop to change tapes, etc. And it would maybe need only two cards to do it, although maybe it would need three cards.

(this presupposes that the camera will have at least two slots, which I would think is a *very* safe assumption. The SPX800 has, I think, five slots).

If you have only one card, then you have to treat it more like a film camera with one magazine. Unload it, reload it, and start shooting again.

<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : Why do you have to stop anything? Just pull the full card out of the camera and keep recording on the empty card in the other slot. -->>>

ahh i already miss the good ole days when all you had to do was shoot...

i take it this becomes a two man (or woman) job....no way can i shoot and worry about transfering priceless footage to laptop (or other device) then deleting the card then going back to shooting...

not to mention the deleting part make me a bit nervous

i feel a little old for this type of shooting

Relax Robert. There is reason to believe you will be able to pop a hard disk straight into the P2 slot, as it seems to be just a Panasonic-branded PC-card interface, just like Sony prefers to call IEEE1394 "iLink".

Where did you find that information Ignacio?

There are no announcments in that direction yet, but it just makes sense. You can --for example-- put IBM microdrives into CompactFlash slots in digicams and PDA's, allthough they were not designed to use hard disks. Basically a PC-card interface is a PCI interface, you can plug whatever you want into that, assuming that what you plug in knows how to talk to the host and what to do with the data. So it could also be possible to use the interface to connect a network card that talks to a computer, and that could even be a wireless network card. Imagine the possibilites!

<<<-- Originally posted by Ignacio Rodriguez : There are no announcments in that direction yet, -->>>

i speculate that there won't be any, the AJ-SPX800 is a p2 system and it is propritary in that only p2 cards can be used...

but in general i understand why pana had to do this, just don't think its for me...

ohhh thanks for telling me to relax, i feel better now

I think Panasonic would be shooting themselves in the foot if they don't allow the interface to be usable by third parties.

Jan? Hope you are following this thread and forwarding the info. I for one would NEVER buy a Panasonic camera if it's PC-card interface is limited to only talking to Panasonic cards. Even if Panasonic offers hard disks in the PC-card form factor, there would not be enough competition. P2 itself benefits from the PC-card standard that anyone can use, the industry and consumers would see it as an unfair practice to lock out everybody using industry standard technology. It would be as if Sony had not allowed their cameras to talk over IEEE1394 to any computer which is not a Vaio.

> in general i understand why pana had to do this

Why would it be?

<<<-- Originally posted by Ignacio Rodriguez : I think Panasonic would be shooting themselves in the foot if they don't allow the interface to be usable by third parties. -->>>

I agree. From Panasonic's P2 section on their web site, my bolding for emphasis: "P2, which stands for Professional Plug-in, is a compact solid-state memory card designed for professional AV use. Compliant with PC Card standards (Type II), the P2 card plugs directly into the card slot of a laptop PC.* AV data on the card mounts instantly, with each cut as MXF and metadata file. The data can be used immediately – no digitizing necessary - for nonlinear editing, or it can be transferred over a network. *The P2 card driver (bundled with all P2 cams, decks and drives) must be installed.The P2 card driver operates under Windows XP and Windows 2000."

This says to me that the P2 is compliant in any PC-card slot. Thus, isn't this suggesting that a third party could make a PC-card compatible card for the camera with either greater storage capacity, or perhaps connectors to an external recording device?

Yes, it's expensive and ridiculous now to consider 4-8 mins on a card, but Panny is looking ahead to those 64GB cards in 2007... ;)

https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/sales_o/p2/p2card/img03.jpg

Check out HD For Indies.

Some guy claims larger cards will be there when the camera hits.

Not sure if you can cut and paste from site to site.

Posting content from other sites is not cool. However, Mike Curtis, the owner of HD For Indies (an awesome blog by the way) is a member here and I'll ask him to chime in about this here.

does anyone have any webspace they can donate?? I have a brochure here whch goes through the differences of the SD array and the actual larger P2's (up to 128gb)
It also goes through details very similar to this webpge, but it actually exaplins how the cards work etc etc

if anyone wants it, im happy to scan it and post it

everyones worried about thsi 4 gb thing.. guys there are larger cards out there. believe me, ive seen them.. at the moment the largest ive seen is 128g.. yes its expensive, but it exists..

Sure, Peter, we have room for your scans here at DV Info. Just shoot me an email.

sure Chris,
Im just scanning it in now :)

<<<-- Originally posted by Peter Jefferson : sure Chris,
Im just scanning it in now :) -->>>

Before you post it, I'd suggest that you confirm that Peter Jefferson holds the copyright or has obtained permission to reproduce the brochure.

err dude its for public release anyway..
the more people know about the P2 cards the better off Pana will be..

hell, i got like 200 of these to give to my clients, so i really dont think panasonic would have an issue with this being posted on the net considering its eeh only brochure availlable proving that a 128GB P2 card exists.. which in turn will clear peoples concerns about the capacity of these..

<<<-- Originally posted by Peter Jefferson : err dude its for public release anyway..
the more people know about the P2 cards the better off Pana will be.. -->>>

You obviously aren't a copyright lawyer. If Panasonic published the brochure, the chances are good that they hold the copyright. You may be right, Panasonic probably wouldn't mind, but then again they may have reservations about just posting it on the Web in an uncontrolled setting. If it's not cool to post content from other Web sites or forums that doesn't fall within "fair use," it's not cool to post other copyrighted material without permission, regardless of intentions. More to the point, doing so may expose the owners of this site to legal action. All you have to do is ask.

go without... it makes no difference to me.. its no skin off my nose..

<<<-- Originally posted by Lawrence Bansbach : <<<-- Originally posted by Peter Jefferson : sure Chris,
Im just scanning it in now :) -->>>

Before you post it, I'd suggest that you confirm that Peter Jefferson holds the copyright or has obtained permission to reproduce the brochure. -->>>

I think Chris is fully capable of deciding what's acceptable to post on his own website.

Peter, you have e-mail. :)

Any speculation as to whether the P2 slot on exisiting or upcoming cameras is compliant with the standard PC Card spec?

My god. I can't believe someone is arguing copyright infringement for a product brochure. Copyright law already stifles creativity and and now its come to product brochures.

I'm sure many documentary filmmakers on this board can educate you more calmly as I am too dumbfounded by your very quick response to stifle its posting. And maybe you should do some research on one of the greatest the documentaries ever made " Eyes on the Prize" and the fact you will never see it because the company that owns it cannot afford to purchase the rights to the archival footage.


And Chris Hurd will ultimately do what is best and right for his sight.


Note: This is not a post by the regular member Michael Pappas that posts here. I have the same name and will at some point if this post doesn't get me banned sign up with a middle Initial.

Any speculation as to whether the P2 slot on exisiting or upcoming cameras is compliant with the standard PC Card spec? -

P2 cards are compatible with PC Card slots. So are you asking if the reverse is also true, if a PC Card could be plugged into a P2 slot? Can't see why not, but it's an interesting question...

And don't worry folks, we'll clear things with Panasonic just to be kosher.

I suggested caution and responsibility, especially given that corporate lawyers (I'm not referring to Panasonic here but companies in general) can be incredibly tenacious. I don't need educating about the unfortunate consequences of copyright law and I'm not arguing in favor of it -- just in favor of being careful enough so as to minimize exposing one's business to unnecessary legal risks, something anyone running a business and dealing with rules and regulations is already aware of. As to rebelling against unjust laws, why don't you do something a little more constructive and contact your senators and congressmen to urge them to support equitable reform of copyright law?

I'm sure Chris will do what is best for his site, and I apologize to him for offering unsolicited advice, especially given that he is sensitive to such issues -- "Posting content from other sites is not cool" is, I believe, a direct quote (which, having proper attribution, is not plagiarism).

No apology necessary, and once again we'll definitely do the right thing. Thanks,

Sorry to kind of jump on you, Lawrence.

As you're new here, you probably didn't know that (for obvious reasons) copyright, trademark, and fair-use issues are in constant discussion on this board. I think we assume that if Chris wants to post a brochure or the like, he is aware of most of the possible or probable implications such an action may carry.

BTW - Welcome to the board. :)

<<<-- Originally posted by Mark Ross : Peter, you have e-mail. :)

Any speculation as to whether the P2 slot on exisiting or upcoming cameras is compliant with the standard PC Card spec? -->>>

no speculation, fact..
the p2 card is essentailly a PCMCIA card. Shape, size, dimensions..
the only issue is with PCMCIA is bandwidth, so as a transfer system, it works ok to and from the lappy.

Im sure Pana have refined the speed within their own gear, but if you have a P2 card in the Lappy and ur editing straight off the card, you may come across bandwidth issues...

Right, well, I am asking exactly what Barry made clear a few posts above:

We know the P2 has been designed to the PCMCIA spec and will work in a standard PC Card slot in a laptop, etc, for transfer purposes.

What I'm asking is if the P2 slot itself is based on the PCMCIA spec, i.e. opening the door for third parties to create a device (card, connector, etc) that would add functionality to the camera via the P2 slot.

Actually no one uses the basic PCMCIA spec. today. References to that spec. are only used today for historical reasons I guess. The PC-card interface which ships today in most laptops is capable of handling much more than 1Gbps without problems. Actually a PC-card is the same as a PCI bus. So Panasonic should not have had to use anything but the PC-card spec itself.

It would be desirable for Panasonic to allow third party cards to work in the P2 slots. Technically, there would not appear to be any problem. However, Panasonic's product strategy might not want it.

I have voiced my opinion on this matter across several threads. I think Panasonic would be very foolish not to allow third party use of the slot.

Yeah, I'm right there with you on this Ignacio. I suppose it's a tough call for Panasonic to make regarding whether they will support third-party products.

Actually, does anyone know how that works? Would Panasonic be able to outright prohibit a third-party from making something that would work in the P2 slot? Sure, they may not cooperate with them in terms of giving the third-party all of the necessary technical information to develop such a product, but could they actually stop someone from reverse-engineering the P2 concept and creating a card that worked, albeit an unauthorized, unendorsed one? I know lots of scenarios where software/hardware solutions are "unsupported" by the parent company but are used to get the job done nonetheless...

I guess they could require the card to have a chip with a challenge-response code, so if the chip is not there, the interface would not talk to the card, no matter how well designed. That's one way I can think of. There maybe others. The bottom line is, if Panasonic doesn't want third-party cards to work in the P2 slot, they will not.

If Panasonic doesn't care and doesn't work to make it difficult, then there is a high chance third-parties can easily reverse engineer P2 and make cards that work.

Of course the best scenario would be for Panasonic to help anyone that makes PC-cards for the camera, as they would be creating added value for their product, and thus they could sell more cameras.

But the history of electronics is plagued with stupid practices. Take for example Sony, where there have even been cases of different divisions that make products that are incompatible with each other, precisely in the solid state memory arena (sigh).

I would be very surprised if non-Panasonic-brand SD cards did NOT work in the P2 array. Panasonic will of course want you to buy their own branded SD cards, and they may very well withold comment as to whether or not third-party SD cards are compatible, but I'm willing to bet that they are compatible. Whenever we wind up knowing for sure one way or the other, that will be significant news at that time. Currently there are other P2 cameras out in the market; I'd like to find one of those shooters and get a definite ruling on this. All it would really require is one non-Panasonic SD card inserted into the P2 array to find out!

There is a very specific specification to make the P2 architecture work. It is 4 SD cards in a stripped array, that give it the speed, and it is not the speed for writing that is needed it is the speed that is needed for transfer of footage that is desired.

At this point I do not know of any other manufacturer that makes a P2 card. But that does not mean there won't be. Heck when we started with DVCPRO tape there was only us, then there was more demand and Fuji started to supply and then eventually Maxell. If there is demand, there will always be a suppy, if there is enough demand there will be competition.

Hope that helps,

Jan