Hello all,

The main scene for my next short takes place at a dining room table over a romantic candle lit diner. I'm trying to figure out how to light this scene in a dramatic, romantic way (there may be a bit of foul play coming up). I'm waiting for a production monitor to arrive so some of my problems may reside there. But I'd like for you to take a look at some grabs from some early test footage that I've been experimenting with and tear them apart telling me what you would do differently. For the record I shot this with an XL2 and lit with lowel lights.

http://www.birthofthecool.com/Testing/still_1.gif

http://www.birthofthecool.com/Testing/still_2.gif

http://www.birthofthecool.com/Testing/still_3.gif

Can't remember the pricing, but there's a Tiffen filter that'd look nice for that kinda thing, check their website and there's loads of example pics.. looks nice but might cost too much money to buy for one shoot. Hire maybe?

Well, I have access to quite a few filters. Do yo know what it is and what you would try to achieve with it?

Looking at still #2... my eye was drawn to the tabletop, as it's the hottest spot in the frame. (That's good if he's doing something with his hands you want the viewer drawn to). I do like that you used candles as practicles; I've seen posts here regarding rigging them with bulbs, but nothing's gonna look as "real" as, well, reality.

So much of my lighting ideas come from my still-film background, but were I lighting this, I'd stick a 6 or 8" fresnel where it would light his face off-axis from the left-of-frame side; I'd put an 11" grid about 12" away from the fresnel lens, either with a pipe & clamp rig or a separate stand. (I've posted about grids before... they're soft yet directional, and I say "11 inch grid" because I have a bunch of speedotron grids in my still strobe kit, and you don't want a too-ticght grid from that distance) I'd gel it warm if you're using daylight balance. (Lighting outlets will rent grids for various strobe & hot systems, you might want to check what stock is available to you and think about mounting if you're interested).

Tight aluminum grids are dynamite for this type of thing, as they're sort of "directional yet soft", and they're really priceless for beauty or "romance"; just a unique, sparkly quality that's hard to get elsewhere. I've also put a circle of matte acetate/myar on the "lamp" side of a grid to soften it more. If you do a china lamp or a softbox, you'll get a ton of spill, which could be OK but seems like your scene could open up & go too ambient.

If I were on this set with no grids, what would I do to open up the face a bit (assuming that's where the intensity/emotion of this scene comes from) and reduce my reliance on the white bounce from the tabletop? (also assuming tight budget here). I'd look for any lamp that has some "direction" to it, either a par or fresnel or a soft light with barn doors... and I'd try shooting it through some sort of box or tube, likely on a separate stand (thought then you have to aim TWO fixtures).

Picture a 12" square cardboard beverage box, with cardboard dividers placed to put 16 wine bottles in it, and the top and bottom cut out; possibly add a sheet of vellum or spun diffuser to the "lamp" side, position it away from the lamp (I'm describing something flammable y'know). Play with distances & diffusion vs. no diffusion. I know that sounds nutty, but you're essentially replicating a (pricey) deep softlight/coffin with a (pricey) fabric grid, for a few bucks. (And would I paint the thing black?? For a warm-color scene, I'd let the brown cardboard eat some of the whites/blues...)

My kids were watching that "secrets of neverland" doco the other night, and I noticed an interview with every softbox covered in fabric grids... yeah, I'm a freak for those things...

Also, for closeups... a 50 or 100 string of white xmas lights, bundled up so the lamps are all together and just off-frame? Dang, that's PRETTY as heck!

Light the candle, turn out all the other lights and look at what the candle is doing and re-create that. Soft/semi soft sources

A China Ball can be nice. You may have to skirt it to keep it off the walls.

Keep lights off the candle(s), that's always a give away, unless it's coming from overhead. Use dots, or fingers to keep your light off the candlestick.

The middle of the table is way too hot. My eye goes there and then never leaves. I think it bought a house there :~).

Couldn't see #2, the pic wouldn't load.

Get creative. Keep it simple.

Try a #1 Warm Card to make everything more golden.

I took a crack at color correcting/enhancing the third still.
http://www.glennchan.info/Proofs/dvinfo/candlelight_corrected.jpg
If you use Vegas I could send you a .veg, and if you don't use Vegas then you shouldn't expect similar results.

My comments:
1- The face needs a light on it. It's dark. If it's intentionally dark, then make it more dramatic by adding a back/side light or something like that.

In the corrected image, I brightened the face with a mask. But that brings out video noise.

2- In the corrected image, I crushed the shadows using a color curves filter. This makes the background a lot harder to see, which may be desireable. If you crush the blacks further, the background will be even harder to see.
3- Maybe gel the lights to be a little warmer? Right now the paper, tablecloth, and hands stand out because they're brighter and cooler than everything else.
4- I applied some diffusion to the image. You can do this easily in post.
5- Do you want your lighting to foreshadow things to come? (i.e. make the guy look more evil by using hard lighting and/or having a hard light from the side)

Thanks guys!! I didn't really think that it had to look like all the light was coming from the candles... I'm going to relight and shoot some more test footage tonight. I'll post again.

You're on to something, Matthew. I feel you need a little more light on your background to help separate your subject, who is disappearing into the gloom. You could try something as simple as a 100w incandescent bulb in a paper china ball with a dimmer. Run the dimmer around 70% to give reddish effect to the background. Place the china ball close to the wall out of sight, which will give the light a bit of a shape. Or not.

For inspiration, check out paintings by George dela Tour, who would have been a great "director of photography," had he not been a great 17th Century painter. Also, look at any movies with these scenes, such as Peter Greenaway's "The Draughtsman's Contract." Peter was trained as a painter, and later got into filmmaking. And of course, Kubrick's "Barry Lyndon" is sort of the "gold standard" for using candle light as a source.

Why not learn from the best?

Wayne Orr, SOC

Just to bolster what Wayne says, you can check out a dela Tour gallery by clicking here (http://www.christusrex.org/www2/art/Latour.htm) and find a bit of info about Barry Lyndon by clicking here (http://www.bigredhair.com/movies/kubrick/), and finally, you can see some stills from "The Draughtsman's Contract" by clicking here (http://greenaway.bfi.org.uk/material.php?theme=2&type=Photograph&title=draughtsman).

Wow, John, thanks for that amazing follow-up. I hope everyone will take a moment to check out the first painting of "Joseph the carpenter," in fact, do yourself a favor and download the hi-rez version to your computer for study. Pay particular attention to the transluscent quality of the boy's hand caused by the candle. Breathtaking.

The first time I saw a painting by dela Tour was in the Ufizi Gallery in Florence, Italy, and it literally stopped me in my tracks. His work was largely ignored for many years, but about twenty years ago, he was "rediscovered" and given a major exhibition at the National Gallery of Art in Washington, where a number of his paintings still hang. You can find other examples of his work on the web.

Thanks again, John.

Still not there yet, but maybe I'm closer? Maybe it's still to warm? Not dark enough on the wall by the plant? I think I went to far in the other direction... Let me know what you think.

You can see the old ones at:
www.birthofthecool.com/testing.html

http://www.birthofthecool.com/Testing/still_1b.gif

http://www.birthofthecool.com/Testing/still_2b.gif

http://www.birthofthecool.com/Testing/still_3b.gif

Matthew,

You definitely have a nice touch with lighting. IMHO though, you've gone from a nice chiaroscurro effect to a more typically-lit scene that isn't quite as romantic. My vote would be to take down the background a bit, and also try to localize the light a bit more...like the examples Wayne referred to. For instance, in 2b, shouldn't the girl's hair should grab our attention before the candles?

But that's just my opinion...

Matthew, your pix look great! Now get out there and shoot the damn thing, and quit worrying about the look. Follow your gut.

Wayne

Thanks guys, but like John said, I'm still not there.. Wayne, I'm really new to all this, this will be my second short. I have a production monitor coming this week so hopefully, that will help a bit as right now I'm just relying on my viewfinder.

My first short is here: http://www.birthofthecool.com/films.html

I did it as a film noir so I wouldn't have to worry about color. It really wasn't a short just a lighting experiment that I edited together and scored.

I tried to get back to darker, but these seem too dark now. In my editor they seemed good, but when I opened them in photoshop they seem murky. I just wish there was consistency, it would make this easier. I don't mind them darker, but would like more light on the actors face. Of course this is also difficult because I'm standing in for the actor while I do these test so I'm adjusting the lighting, taping myself and then reviewing the footage. Of course that's how I did my first short, so I'm a little used to it.

http://www.birthofthecool.com/Testing/still_1c.gif

http://www.birthofthecool.com/Testing/still_2c.gif

http://www.birthofthecool.com/Testing/still_3c.gif

Edit: I know I'm obsessing about this, but since it's my first real short film, I don't want it to look awful...

Awful!? I haven't seen any evidence of that, Matthew! Quite the contrary.

I was just splitting hairs since that's what you seemed to be doing. But really, Wayne's got the right idea. Just shoot! Better to have a dozen films under you belt than to have tested for one a dozen times.

Photoshop affects the way the image appears on your screen. When you make a new image, you can choose from different color profiles. You can choose the SMPTE C profile, which is supposed to be like what a NTSC monitor will show you. (I wouldn't trust your computer monitor anyways though.)

2- Maybe make the background cooler? If you want a candlelight scene, then the background will probably be moonlit (high contrast, cooler color temperature, dark) with the foreground elements lit differently (warmer color temperature, a few hard light sources casting shadows). If you do things this way, it'll also increase the foreground/background separation because of the color difference.

You can see what a mock-up of what it could look like at
http://www.glennchan.info/Proofs/dvinfo/candlelight_corrected2.jpg
(That image shows lots of color correction too, so you probably shouldn't expect your final product to look like that. One thing in there is that I added a fake light onto the actor's face (it's cooler color temperature too) to brighten it up, as well as bumping up overall exposure and contrast and shifting things a little warmer.

3- You could add a light slash onto the actor's face?

4- If you plan on lowering brightness/gamma in post, you can get more shadow detail by getting a higher exposure in camera. Right now there's not much detail in the background and in the tuxedo.

5- White balance less towards the warm side?

Yipes. I hate those last three pix, Matthew. Way too dark. Are you using a PC or a Mac? On my Mac the prior three pix look great, especially the one with you in it. Mac's seem to give better rendition of what a pic actually looks like, without going through endless tweaks. Anyway.

I think you are trying too hard to shoot the final version, when the shoot should just represent the direction you want to go, and leave the final tweaking to post. Go to your video store and see if you can find two copies of "The Anniversary Party." One on VHS and one on DVD. Watch the VHS version first, if you can, cause it looks gawdawful. This was what was originally shot by a very excellent DP, John Bailey. It was shot with two high-end dv cams, the DSR500W, in PAL, I think. What Bailey was doing was delivering what is sometimes refered to as a "fat negative," in film parlance. He made sure that all the information was in the image, knowing that in post and the transfer process, it would be manipulated to reveal what he really had in mind, which you will see when you look at the DVD, which was made from the film transfer. I am certain he never wanted the video version released, but it makes for a great learning tool for the rest of us.

Point being, if you give yourself some wiggle room when you shoot, you will have more room to manipulate the final image in post. For instance, even in the pix I liked, the blacks are crushed. If this was the way you shot it, you will never be able to retrieve any detail from your shadow areas, such as your tux jacket. All that looks like is a black blob. I'm getting very critical here, but seems to be what you want. If you look at your image in PS, note that it is very heavily weighted toward the shadow area, with virtually no highlights, save for the candles. I think this is fine for the finished look, but a bit dark for the shoot. There really does need to be some detail in the jacket, since it too is under the influence of the "candle light."

BTW, I hope you will check out some of those references I mentioned earlier. I looked at your short film, and you are a very talented fellow. But lighten up a bit, literally and figuratively. If every DP shot every scene exactly as he wanted it to appear on the screen, no movie would ever get finished.

Wayne

Wayne, thank you again. Yes, I've been checking out everything you mention as quickly as I can. John's web references were a help. I will definitely rent that movie on both tape and dvd assuming I can find both copies, otherwise I'll order them from Amazon.

I'll try to lighten up, It's just that I'm excited and want to do good work that's all. Thank you for all your feedback. I do have one more question. I often hear about "crushing your blacks in post" but haven't done it other than to play with say the gamma control. Could you en-lighten me a bit (pun intended)?

Thank you again.

Matt

I have another question. Do you notice that even in the brighter footage there is what appears to be "noise" (for lack of a better term) in the image (by the wall)? It doesn't look clean. I get this even if I don't use the filter (I'm shooting with a black promist 1/2). Am I doing something wrong or is that just how DV looks?

Matt