I'm just seeing what people think on this. My main worry is getting a crew. How would i go about succesfully calculating a budget. I will be buying and Canon Xl2 Pal and a P+S technik Mini35 and some of the equipment or is it better to rent. I am based in the UK so it will be shot here.

Is there anythng else i should let you know.

are you planning to transfer to 35mm later, with additional finance perhaps - or will DigiBeta/DVD be the delivery formats?

It is very possible to shoot a feature, even for less than your budget. But, there are factors to consider-

1) Script- is it a simple story, few *reasonable* locations, small cast? If so, you may be able to actually shoot it AND pay cast and crew up front.

2) Cast and crew- Try and get film students' friends, and hopeful beginners. Most of the time, these folk are happy to just be doing a movie. You can sometimes get by with just "copy & credit", sometimes deferred payment.

3) Your biggest expenses, will be attorneys, insurance, and permits. If you have any material that MAY BE COPYRIGHTED, you will need a lawyer, just to help keep other lawyers and courts off your back.

Remember- A feature is called a feature, because of it's length. Feature length is around an hour to 3 hours. It doesn't have to have explosions, spaceships, and massive car chases... those are just really cool ;)

Thanks for replying- It means alot to hear someones feedback. The film is and Action/Sci-fi but it situated in loactions that would look great on film.

Basically the movie i hope will be around 100min-120, there are few scenes where it will cost $$$ but i am unsure of how much.

There is one scene which i scripted it to be about 10-12mins long where there is a mini war scene on a field on a council estate. Through the location of where the atcuall scene is (Brixton, London) our version of your Bronx, This would not be possible for money factors. The shoot would include about 40 extras, guns would be involved and a few mini explosions. So i figure i could do some back plate shooting and a few on location scenes and then put it all together, filming the filed war scenes in a green screen room. This would be feesible. A rough estimate for this scene would be about $3800. Costumes and guns would need to be hired.

The next shot is of a small car chase scene at night. I have thought about shooting it bit by bit like through the middle of the night but i am still not sure this can be done or rather more should be done like this.

There is then another scene where a flat explodes. I would probably have to build a set. How much does this cost?

There are a few are big scenes but i have an idea of how they should work out an i am not really worried about them. My main concern is running this like a proper movie. I definatley wan't a proper DP. Do the crew all have to be proffessionals. This film really has to wow people so i can secure funding for it's sequels. I would ideally like to shoot the movie like a proper movie. Could it be done in 4 weeks or more. I know these question are ridiculous to be answered, but i really have no proper clue and any help that could lead me in the right direction would be great.

Thanks

<<<-- Originally posted by Rabi Syid : I will be buying and Canon Xl2 Pal and a P+S technik Mini35 and some of the equipment -->>>

That will take a pretty big bite out of your budget for starters. I don't have any real experience with film budgets, but have budgeted many millions of dollars for theatrical productions over the years. There's no magic formula for any of this. Start a spreadsheet and begin by just listing each item that will be required for each scene of your film. Create columns for description, quantity, unit cost, total, and also benefits if they are required for your labor.

Then you give it your best guess. Don't expect to do this in one sitting, but keep returning to it regularly over a period of days or weeks. The important thing about this is that you will begin an analytical thought process. You'll find yourself thinking about the details as you go about your daily business, then returning home to revise a line on the spreadsheet. Gradually you'll refine your original guesses to more realistic estimates based on research.

You should also do supporting spreadsheets which break down the cost of the more complicated items in more detail. I also scribble down a lot of notes on legal pad pages, and throw them all in a file folder.

This is how I organize my thoughts and eventually end up with a finished budget for the activities of my department here at the Opera Company. As I said, the discipline is the important part. As soon as you start putting numbers in the spreadsheet the wheels in you mind will start turning, and this will guide you in the right direction. Good luck with the project; let us know how it works out!

Thanks for your comments. That seems like the best option.

Rabi, perhaps you can find a line producer/production manager who has had previous experience with this level of filmmaking and bring them on during the budgeting stage--you'll need them during the shoot anyway, plus they will likely have crew and resource recommendations.

You might also be better off hiring a DP with his own camera equipment, rather than buying it. That in itself could save you several thousand, which could be used elsewhere.

<<<-- Originally posted by Rabi Syid : There is one scene which i scripted it to be about 10-12mins long where there is a mini war scene on a field on a council estate. Through the location of where the atcuall scene is (Brixton, London) our version of your Bronx, This would not be possible for money factors. The shoot would include about 40 extras, guns would be involved and a few mini explosions. So i figure i could do some back plate shooting and a few on location scenes and then put it all together, filming the filed war scenes in a green screen room. This would be feesible. A rough estimate for this scene would be about $3800. Costumes and guns would need to be hired.

The next shot is of a small car chase scene at night. I have thought about shooting it bit by bit like through the middle of the night but i am still not sure this can be done or rather more should be done like this.

There is then another scene where a flat explodes. I would probably have to build a set. How much does this cost? -->>>

Any time you're dealing with guns, pyro, etc., your main concern needs to be safety. Even blanks can hurt people.

I don't know what the regulations are in the UK (although I imagine they're much more restrictive than in the US), but you can order prop guns from places like AirSoft. (Found this on Google in just a few minutes: http://www.wolfarmouries.co.uk/airsoft/bb/sitemap/gun_prop.htm)

But you're going to need someone on set that knows the safety precautions with these things in and out.

That goes quadruple for anything you plan to blow up. You're going to need trained technicians to set up the pyro, and you're probably going to need the local fire department on hand to put the thing out afterwards.

This is NOT where you want to cut costs. Your film is probably not worth a trip to the hospital.

Rabi,

Boyd's caution, that buying equipment will take bite out of your budget, is one to take into SERIOUS consideration. Keith's recommendation to hire a professional DP with a package is also some advice to take into serious consideration.

The cost of buying an XL2 and a Mini35 adapter will be in the area of $15,000! And then you still have to rent the 35mm lenses to put onto the Mini35!!! Rental of those lenses could run you another $3,000 for a 4 week shoot!

With that kind of money, you could rent a Sony HDW-F900 and hire a Director of Photography. With money to spare. It's likely you could find an owner/operator with an F900 and get a package deal like Keith suggests. An owner/operator would probrably do a 4 week job for half as much.

Buying equipment is the first and most common mistake filmmakers make. Anything you can think of can be rented for a fraction of the price. Take the money you save from rentals and put it into hiring a professioanl crew. You'll cut your cost in half, and double your production value.

$48,000 is plenty of money to comfortably make a 24P DV feature WITH paying your crew, and renting a healthy production package. Of course, SFX are going to be another issue. But plenty has been done with less.

Also, let me second Colin's warning to put safety first!!! Safety is the most important issue to consider, Period. Whether it's working with Pyro, or stunts, or just having a crew that knows what they're doing. Saftey first! Just as dangerous as an inexperienced stunt and pyro technician, is a student who doesn't know what they're doing with a 1K. Electrocution and a falling light is the one thing that doesn't usually make people stop and think the way an explosion does... until it happens.

Hi

This topic was basically to find out what people had to say on the matter. Every thing what has been said has been right and i have straight way looked into a Dp who owns a Mini. Originally i could of made money from the setup i would of bought but the is long route and i'd rather pay for a DP. Saftey is also key so will do things properly. I am actually just going to shoot the first 15 minutes. Which can be easily done and then take it from there. i will have around £10,000 to shoot this with.

Thanks for all the comments

I bought an XL-1, an Apple with Final Cut Pro 1.0 and hard drives, plus lights, etc., for $15,000 6 years ago (March 1999) and by June, I shot my first feature film, Skye Falling (http://www.customflix.com/Store/ShowEStore.jsp?id=205137) for $2000 + an additional $3000 when it went to one theatre (ads, etc.) and DVD (ads, etc.) in 2001 and 2003 respectively. I had a lot of fun making it and used the gear to make other short films and I made back maybe half of my investment in weddings (who really wants to do that) and other crap.

But ultimately, it's probably cheaper to find someone who owns a camera and rent it, same with other gear. I'd drop a couple grand on an edit system (hard drives are cheaper now than in 1999) but that's it.

I'm getting ready to shoot a film on HDV for $55,000 this fall and I'm being VERY creative, like not hotels, but renting a couple of houses.

heath

"Keith's recommendation to hire a professional DP with a package is also some advice to take into serious consideration."

It's not very often that someone says to consider my advice... I'm both honored, and a bit scared ;)

Ah, Keith, no sweat! You gave me good advice with getting more people to sign up for my newsletter!

heath

I agree with all of the above.

I want to put in a word for the screenplay. It's been said a billion times, but it merits repetition. Screenplay. Without a good screenplay, your movie will be nothing more than a learning experience in filmmaking and a bad experience trying to get anyone to sit through it.

The screenplay is everything. If you have a great one, you could shoot your movie with a Canon ZR60 and edit it on iMovie, and you'd still have a shot at Sundance. Without a great screenplay, it won't matter if you buy 10 Dalsa cameras and project it in 70mm Cinemascope at the Zigfield... It'll still be bad.

Granted, I haven't read yours. But ANY screenplay (except maybe Charlie Kaufman's) can use some polishing. Get one or two people whose opinions you trust and respect (and no, parents don't count) and give them the screenplay for feedback. Really.

My advice is to take $4000 of the budget and pay yourself to really write the best damn screenplay you can for a couple of months. That's $500 a week. Quit your day job, or take a leave of absence, and you won't have to worry about paying the bills for 2 months. Every day read over the screenplay and compare it to other sci/fi movies you admire. What works. What doesn't. Trim the fat. Is there any scene that is slowing down the pace? Start every scene as late as possible and finish it as early as possible (if you don't know what that means, check out www.wordplayer.com and read the whole website.) Work on it day and night for those 8 weeks, and I guarantee you it'll make your movie a heck of a lot better than any Mini35 could dream of.

Then, and only then, take the rest of your $42,000 and make your movie. If you have a killer screenplay, YOU WILL NOT HAVE A PROBLEM FINDING A GOOD CREW (see this link: http://www.apple.com/pro/video/kobler/ ).

And, to answer your question: yes. You can shoot a feature for $48,000.

Best of luck.

Hey Heath, 2 questions...

What newsletter? Also, where you getting $55,000! lol

I would advise against paying yourself, even if it's your own money. Set the budget to be lower ($42,000) and THEN set aside the other $6000 to survive on for about 3-4 months. I've seen bad things happen when filmmakers pay themselves, though not nearly as bad when it's someone else's money...

heath

I always say that if I had an extra $40K lying around I'd hire me one semi-name actor. For $40K that's the best bang for your buck in the production value department.

...or take a long vacation!

otherwise get yourself a mini35, some old non-ai nikkors and an xl1 (or 2 if you're lucky XL2 that is not that 2 cameras don't strike me as a good idea) and get cracking... don't forget the tripod.

Goooooood LUCK!

<<<-- Originally posted by Christopher C. Murphy : Hey Heath, 2 questions...

What newsletter? Also, where you getting $55,000! lol -->>>

Money--investors. Newsletter--the MPS Digital Studios newsletter (www.mpsdigital.com).

heath

I would not pay myself and I would not buy ANYTHING I didn't absolutely have to. And I would not make a miniDV movie.

I own a bunch of equipment that I recently bought including an XL2. I did this as a hobby and to learn the craft of cinematography. If that's your goal - great. Do what I and many others are doing. But if your goal is to make a movie and get ANY kind of distribution, even a direct to rental, you are severely reducing your already slim chances of success. I say this not as a know-it-all hobbiest/filmmaker, but as someone who works in the investment business and has been involved on the business side of more than one independent feature.

$50,000 is nothing - nothing. Can it be done? Of course, but you need every penny - every single one - to wind up on the screen. You have to be able to separate the business side of things from the creative side of things. Look at it this way, you are making one large investment - the production of a product, in this case a film. To do so, your budget will be a blueprint for all of your expenditures, each an investment in its own right, so you have to make smart decisions. Purchasing a camera that produces an inferior image (for a big screen) and ties up capital that could otherwise be spent on improving the product is a bad business decision. Listen to what these folks have told you regarding cameras/operators - they're right.

Also, don't post about what cheap ass shotgun you can get away with and can you record to camera. Bad sound will ruin your film faster than a bad image. Hire a professional recordist (who again will have his own equipment) and be sure to budget for post. In fact, don't just budget for it, bring these folks in from the beginning - they will probably recommend a recordist to you. Don't buy lights - hire a gaffer who has his own kit.

Basically your choice is to purchase equipment and try and do everything yourself - or get someone equally unskilled to do it for you. Or, you can get top shelf equipment along with talented personnel with the skill set required to pull this off.

You are taking a gamble no matter what. But since you probably don't have ANOTHER $50,000 laying around to do it again if you screw up (after all if you did, your budget for this one would be $100,000) you need to mitigate your risk as much as possible. The best way to do this is to hire the right people.

And yes if you can get a name actor (even small name) do it. That's what I mean about putting $$$ on the screen.

Ok, I'm done.

Matt

We're shooting a feature for under 15 grand, so i guess the answer you're looking for is yes.

All it really takes is a crew you is somewhat skilled and motivated to make this happen. It's also a huge help if someone you know, or a friend of a friend has access to cheap or free equipment.

I think i've been blessed so far: I buddy of mine works at a stor where the happen to sell the XL2, so I was able to buy a brand new model from a licenced Canon dealer with a thousand dollar discount, including a 4 year waranty. It also happens that his uncle runs a lighting business, so we have access to lights as well.

Also, my crew which consists of about 15 or 16 artists (from various fields) are all very very excited and motivated to make this film.

When it comes down to it, all you need is a smart DP, who may or may not have expirience. Other than that you can hire a crew for free, who are just people who want to be part of your project. (they don't need film expirience) Really get picky when it comes to actors - they will make or break your film.

My actors happen to be some very talented acting students from the local university. My sound guy is a musician with an ear of gold, and a knowledge for sound equipment that surpasses anyone in my state. (with him is a kid who goes to college for sound engineering. My boom operator is just a tall guy. My script suprivisor is this organized girl who's day job is something that has to do with filling or secretarial work. My Gaffer is an electrician by day, and so on..

And me?

I'm just a guy with a passion for silmmaking.

I don't want to start an argument with you, or get into a heated battle of opinions, but my main focus is art and aesthetics.

We're not making this movie to become rich and famous, we're making it for ourselves; for our self-expression. To us this is art, not a business investment.

Good equipment is very important, but if you absolutely cannot get your hands on it, you don't need it. So what if your sound ends up ruining your film? You made a movie, and no one will ever take that away from you. You learned from it, and no one will ever take that from you.

For me, this project will be my film schooling. I learn from doing rather than from listening. And if i wanted to make a feature on a Hi8 or VHSC camera, I would.

You could go on and on about how very important it is to have the best of overything and a large sized pocket book, but if you really want to make a film, my best advice to you would be take off your suit and tie, grab a camera and go shoot it.

Good luck!!!!

I once made a film (http://www.customflix.com/Store/ShowEStore.jsp?id=205137) for $2000, but I spent $15,000 on the gear, which of course is used for multiple projects, etc.

My only complaint? We shot usually for 6 hours a day, 3 days a week, then 2 full days. This made shooting hard, and lasted from mid-June to late August 1999. More money would've given us five to six 12-hour days in two to three weeks, keeping momentum up, etc. That's how features should be made, in my opinion.

heath

Once you break down your budget.

I always tell people to keep their post money in a different account and upon penalty of death don't use it for production.

That's where so many films also end up with bad sound, because they spent the money for the mix.

My advice if you bought equipment. Is to buy a computer and editing software.

Because you'll spend more time in post than you will in production.

My choice is Mac and FCP. I hear Vegas has some good sound mixing things. But I've never used it.

On somewhat named actors you have to think aboug SAG.

Look into the no budget agreement. But of course you repay the actors their full scale pay back before your investors get any money.

But then that might help you sell it. So that's something to tell your investors.

All of the above advice from others has been good also.

<<<-- Originally posted by Gary McClurg : Once you break down your budget.

I always tell people to keep their post money in a different account and upon penalty of death don't use it for production. That's where so many films also end up with bad sound, because they spent the money for the mix.
>>

I would say yes, unless you own a system.

<<I hear Vegas has some good sound mixing things. But I've never used it.>>

I used Vegas--nice for audio, not too good interface for video and the captured footage loses some quality, at least by my eye.

<<On somewhat named actors you have to think aboug SAG. Look into the no budget agreement. But of course you repay the actors their full scale pay back before your investors get any money. But then that might help you sell it. So that's something to tell your investors.>>

SAG are nice people, they helped me ensure I work with an actor friend of mine, who rocks, but is in the union.

But they don't guarantee you'll get an actor (that's the actor and his/her agent/manager's choice), and then if the movie's sold, you pay the actor LOTS more money than you would have before. Keep that in mind if the name actor you want isn't a lead character. If he/she is a lead, giving profits might not be a bad thing. Also, make sure the lead is a recognizable person that investors will get excited to drop money on it. For more on SAG's indie stuff, look at www.sagindie.com, particularly their page on contracts (http://www.sagindie.com/contracts.html). Lots of good stuff in there!

Good stuff, Gary!

heath

Great advice.
Lon, I hear ya man, but he said he wants to make a scifi film which is going to require more cash for props and even post, CG work.

If you want to do your own CG work and you can't afford 6K for Maya, I can recommend Hashs' Animation Master. 299 (199 for students) it even has built in support for film type output
. For 699 you can get the unlimited network render version.

It's a great character animator and does quite well for modelling and making space ships and explosions and all that cool stuff. Has a great anime style toon shader too. Has good camera/rack focus tools and great rotoscoping features.

If on a truly meager budget, you can download Blender for free, from blender3d.org, great modelling, passionate user group. Plus links to all sorts of open source and/or free CG programs, including photorealistic rendering systems just like the pros use. (really exciting whats out there).

But beware, no matter what you get, there will be a steep learning curve. Or hire someone to do it for you.

Can't afford Photoshop, and prefer to remain legal? Try Gimp, a free open source paint program available for Windows, Mac and Linux.

If you have a Mac or Linux, check out Cinepaint which started out from Gimp but is going in a different (film/video based) direction. It's free too and has been used on several A-List projects. (I think it's still cinepaint.org)

Can't afford AE production bundle?
A newly revamped program called Mirage (formerly Newteks' Aura) offers video/hd/film oriented painting, animation and effects for 695.00 list (maybe less at some online store). You can download a 30 day fully functional trial (hint, hint) for free. Check it out at

http://www.bauhaussoftware.com

Since so many have given excellent advice, and since you want to do scifi...I chose to give you info about some tools that are inexpensive yet able to do a lot of things.

They are right though, you will spend more time in post than in production. I just hope you aren't making a Star Trek fan film. hehehe.

Primer cost $7000 (http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=1&q=http://www.primermovie.com/&e=7507), shot on 16mm film, and was sci-fi. Brainy sci-fi, though...

I think Maya is under $4000 now.

heath

Excellent find Heath,I think I'll buy it... just figured since he wanted battle scenes and explosions, maybe CG would be better than real life pyrotechnics. They did it for years on Xena and those other fantasy series. (making 6 men look like an army, particles going off....).

According to Alias' US Store, (http://store.alias.com/dr/v2/ec_Main.Entry?SP=10007&SID=41107&CID=0&CUR=840&DSP=0&PGRP=0&CACHE_ID=0) the productivity pack is $2100 and the Unlimited version is $6999.

And learn it for less than $30.

heath

Great advice peeps!