http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=381410&is=REG

Link to B H Photo - $9995 - it has to be with a lot of P2 Cards I hope?

That would be with two 8GB cards. Can't believe they're taking pre-orders this early!

I can, hell this thing is gonna be HUGE!!!!!!

They aren't taking pre-orders... just "Notify me when..." notes. My guess is that they put the $9995 number on when the price was listed as <$10,000 and they haven't updated it based on the NAB announcement.

They aren't taking pre-orders... just "Notify me when..." notes. My guess is that they put the $9995 number on when the price was listed as <$10,000 and they haven't updated it based on the NAB announcement.


True, but then it is Passover. I am a little surprised that they made sure to have something up before they left, which was before NAB. They are a marketing machine, I will give them that.

Best,

Jan

I can, hell this thing is gonna be HUGE!!!!!!

Huge? I doubt it until memory cards come way down in price. For an indie documentary producer 16 minutes aint going to do it. It might work for people with a decent budget who are doing fiction films where they can constantly download the cards to their harddrives.

Jan - this looks like you guys had more cards in your hand than you were showing- You had to have had ready more than a nonworking model prototype at nab, if you're delivering a product in sept. Why didn't you show it ? From being a prototype building engineer for 9 years , this sounds like there's a problem - I hate to be the fly in the ointment. Just one of those purely intuitive guesses and can be filed accordingly. Otherwise , it's a beautiful camera and if it does what it says , even if it's a little late , you'll steal the market for the next two years , minimum - worth it's price , even at 10k. Kurth

How many minutes of 1080 24p can you get with 2 8GB cards?

Jan - this looks like you guys had more cards in your hand than you were showing- You had to have had ready more than a nonworking model prototype at nab, if you're delivering a product in sept.
They're following the exact same release schedule as they did for the DVX100. I'm sure somewhere deep in the bowels of Panasonic there's some sort of engineering mule that may be even partly functional, but until it's ready to show, they won't show it. They'll unveil footage as soon as it's available, which will probably be in summer, then they'll show the camera at various trade shows like DV Expo and WEVA and wherever else happens to coincide with when the camera's ready, and then they'll have it in the stores in 4Q (which won't be September, it'll be October at the earliest, and perhaps as late as Dec. 31).

They did this before, with the DVX, and the camera was everything they promised it to be and a huge hit.

How many minutes of 1080 24p can you get with 2 8GB cards?
16 minutes, maybe a little more.

we should be grateful for the early heads-up on this camera, instead of dissing the delivery time... how would you feel if you got suckered into buying hdv, because you didn't know what was coming down the road from panasonic?

i don't care if it takes a full year to deliver this camera... and if i need more recording time, i'll just wait until a hard drive solution is ready.

Now wait a minute,

The B&H thing says that it records to HDV?

That's what it says, but they're wrong.
This camera will not record HDV.

A lot of people seem to be assuming that it's an HDV camera,

I guess it's kind of hard to wrap your head around DVCProHD 1080 & 720p for under 10K.

That's what it says, but they're wrong.
This camera will not record HDV.

A lot of people seem to be assuming that it's an HDV camera,

I guess it's kind of hard to wrap your head around DVCProHD 1080 & 720p for under 10K.

No, thats easy to wrap my head around--its the storage costs that is difficult to wrap ones head around.

what the hell kind of price is that. That's INSANE!!!!! How do you guys offord that, you must BANKKKKKKKKKK from doing whatever you do. Oh, and it's pointless without HD DVD burners ect......

what the hell kind of price is that. That's INSANE!!!!! How do you guys offord that, you must BANKKKKKKKKKK from doing whatever you do. First of all, that's not the right price... second of all, a few paying gigs will pay for a $5K-$6K camera.

Oh, and it's pointless without HD DVD burners ect......

If that's the case, why have people been shooting HD for the past seveal years? If that's true, why do people shoot 35mm or 16mm? Very few people have a film projector at home...

You gotta watch sweeping, broad generalizations... There are many, many uses for this which don't include going straight to an HD-DVD. There's broadcast, which can very well be in HD. There's 35mm or even 16mm film outs... There's digital projection in the native resolution/file. And then there's always a dump to SD for DVD, etc. You never know which corporate client has had HD whispered in their ear and no won't settle for anything less... even if they don't need it.

Besides all that, you've got DVCPRO 50 for you SD--4:2:2 colorspace and twice the bandwith of DV. Sweetness...

"you must BANKKKKKKKKKK from doing whatever you do."

I'm with Kevin on this, after just a few jobs this camera will pay for itself.

It may seem like a lot of money, but when you shoot for a living it's really not that much. It's not like I'm thinking about spending 10K on new clothes, furniture, or something else that isn't going to make me any money. This is a business investment which will generate more income (that's the hope anyhow).

So, while I don't "bankkkkkkk," I do make my living directly from shooting and editing. This camera will hopefully pay for itself rather quickly, and keep me from having to rent as often as I do right now.

yeah I shoot skateboarding EVERYDAY and that doesn't pay much at atll. I get about $30-$40 a trick and that's only if the skater rides for a few companies. I was the first videographer in the skateboard industry to have the DVX100 and everyone talked mad trash about it because they think it's for indie films only. HA, well I proved them wrong. Also all skateboard videos are on DVD not on Broadcast or anything like that. So it is pointless for me to get this GREAT camera because well first of all, I have to wait to sell my current video and sell my DVX. And second, I was at my friends house last night and we watched a DVD on his 60" pananasonic HDTV and it looked like poo. You guys know this cam is to advanced for it's own good, and when HD DVDs and HD burners come out. I'll jump on that piece. Here is a pieace of my work
enjoy.
thanks it may take a minute to load
http://homepage.mac.com/jredwards4/iMovieTheater5.html

Well, then the camera won't necessarily work for you. Though, you can always do a downconvert for the DVD, and then include an HD wmv file on the DVD for people to play through things like the AVEL linkplayers or on their computers, etc. The camera is not too advanced for it's own good... that's like saying the CineAlta and Varicam are too advanced for their own good. The problem is, in your market, you don't have a decent HD distribution yet. That doesn't make the camera useless or too advanced. You're broad, sweeping generalizations just don't hold up.

"I was the first videographer in the skateboard industry to have the DVX100"

Are you really sure about that? I work with several people who shoot alternative and extreme sporting events, including skateboard events. I know several people who jumped all over the DVX100 and had them for shooting skate events the day they were available. One or two of them even claimed to score their DVX a bit before it was "officially available".

skateboard videos are on DVD not on Broadcast or anything like that.

Mostly, yes. However, there are videos occasionally aired on ESPN and other sports related networks as well as minor cable filler networks like SPIKE. There's more to video in the skateboarding industry than skate videos... And there is an HDTV outlet via networks such as HD.Net or ESPNHD where they now show larger events like the X Games or Gravity Games in HD. I recently did the editing on a documentary piece in HD, which was shot with Sony HD cameras at our local ESPN Xtreme indoor skate facility. I don't know if it has aired yet or what the status is as I just did a lot of bulk editing on it in January and final edit was up to someone else.

Your sweeping statement above about skateboard videos being only on DVD, while mostly true, shouldn't be counted as a negative. Personally, I see that as an opportunity to blow open a whole new market.

Well, while it's true that shooting HD may not be an option for you, let's not forget this camera is offering DVCPro50 at an affordable price as well. For me, that's one of the most exciting things about it, and it's easy to forget as so many get excited about the HD options.

So, even if HD distribution is not possible in your market yet, this camera is still offering quite a bit. It's really a great design for this transitional time from SD to HD, and tape to solid state.

ok ESPN guys DON'T COUNT. When I say the SKATEBOARD INDUSTRY, I MEANT guys who SHOOT SKATEBOARDING ON THE STREETS. Shoot everyday, dealing with cops, going out at night with generators doing it the real way. The top skateboarders in the world don't really attend the xgames anymore due to what they have done with the money they have made from it. While in philly the city took the money they made and put it towards KNOBBING all benches and ledges at Love Park and City Hall. I got the camera like 2 weeks after it came out, and the fish came out in October 2004 and I got that 2 days after it was released. Point is those ESPN guys who shoot EXTREME sporting events don't count at all because you have to know how to shoot it. You can't just go out and press the red button and expect to be good at it, it's a lot of skill with that. I would love to see one of those guys filming a "LINE" 5" from the skater going 10-15 mph making the camera SUPER STILL. Thats skill, first you have to know how to skate rather good and then you you to study angles and motions of the camera. Everyone did talk trash about the DVX when i got it, but now they finally know whats up. I would want to be the first to shoot in HD in the skateboad industry, but that price is out of league for a guy like me.

Greg, no offense meant, but you seem like a small fish in an even smaller pond. You came on here and made grand sweeping statements about how useless something was, and when it was pointed out that even in your own industry people could use it and use it well, you come back and say... That's not my industry those guys at ESPN are hacks... Well, those guys at ESPN probably have more experience behind a camera and are making a decent living doing the exact same thing you are... shooting skateboarding. I would bet my house (especially since I'd be happy to get rid of a mortgage payment...) that there will be more than a few people who pick up this camera and start moving into HD skateboarding videos. I would also be surprised of ESPNHD and HD.NET don't jump on this camera as a low cost "b" camera that can be put in harms way a whole lot more than their F900's, Varicams, or whatever else they're shooting on.

I'm glad you enjoy what you do, just don't think that you're the only one trying to get video of skateboarding. Extreme sports in general have now become mainstream... the only thing left is to market them, dump lots o money on them, and get them to the level of the NFL, NBA, MLB, or NHL. And they're pretty much halfway there... Again, no offense meant, but you're corner of the world is not the end all, be all of this camera's potential success.

ok ESPN guys DON'T COUNT. When I say the SKATEBOARD INDUSTRY, I MEANT guys who SHOOT SKATEBOARDING ON THE STREETS.

Points taken. Yes, completely different shooting approaches, shooting environments and markets. I don't do much of anything related to skateboarding, but I do with snowboarding and there's a lot of similar attitudes and situations. However, snowboarding has become a lot less rebellious over the past several years.

But to say that the guys at ESPN don't count is pretty harsh. A lot of those guys started out doing what you're doing now. Just because there's an elitist rebellion within the skateboarding subculture doesn't mean that those shooting under different circumstances than you are any less capable or qualified.

....But an article with pictures everywhere seem to contradict that. Sorry if I missed the point.

My intention is not to start another fuss about this but someone please get the facts straigth and if a panasonic rep actually reads this then POST SOMETHING. (if you did I missed it).

The following picture clearly reads (MiniDV NTSC and has an "Eject" button) or am I crazy?

http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/HVX200/IMG_1688.JPG

http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/HVX200/

Quote:

"more recording formats (in addition to DV, there’s DVCPRO50 and DVCPRO-HD); more recording mediums (in addition to miniDV tape, it offers the revolutionary P2 solid-state memory cards"

Yes, the camera has a Mini-DV only tape deck.

I dont mean to get anyone mad, I just wanted to state the fact for the SKATEBOARD industry the new Panny (my dream cam) is to hot for us right now but I would love to be the first skateboard filmer to get one but I will wait for the HD DVD to come out because I am a man of perfection. Sorry

Ty Evans and French Fred. Those are the Top of the SKATEBOARD world in Videography and editing. I'm sure they have got offers to work for ESPN, but Why wouldn't shoot the same skaters they do now. Also Ty drives an Audi A8 which is not to shaby if I must say. The shots you see on ESPN with pros skating on the streets are pretty much shot by Ty Evans, French Fred, Lee Dupont, Greg Hunt and a few others who are staff for Girl, ES, Volcom, DC Shoes ect. I'm sure ESPN pay those gusy great for that work. That stuff is shot with vx1 vx2 and now Ty Evans has finally got 3 dvx100a's. I just had tons of footage in a MAJOR skateboard video (zero) "New Blood" I will recieve a good amount from that vid. I have 5 other videos that have invoices still out there. I know a lot of the major video guys form the skateboard industry over 10 years, and have not none one to go on to shoot for ESPN directly. Most go on to do Major Movies in Hollywood. I have had job offers to move to CA and be staff fimler for so and so companies, but I have a nice NON video job in the D.C. area.

...It seems to me technically that any movie shot in HD even when down-compressed to regular DVD will look much much better than regular DV. unless of course its transferred to FILM.

The person that made the remark about some people were already shooting HD for a while its right.

Some of the DVD's you see out there when you look at them in a HD set television, look very damm good when blown up don't they, but, if you look at your common DVD creation from a regular DV camera it doesn't quite match that quality.

It has to do with the quality of the picture (Size) original footage.

Anyone correct me if I am wrong.

But to say that the guys at ESPN don't count is pretty harsh. A lot of those guys started out doing what you're doing now. Just because there's an elitist rebellion within the skateboarding subculture doesn't mean that those shooting under different circumstances than you are any less capable or qualified.

..in fact, some of those guys have been shooting everything from news to network specials for years, using all kinds of cameras imaginable...
Just my $0.02 reminder...

I would love to be the first skateboard filmer to get one but I will wait for the HD DVD to come out because I am a man of perfection.

and when hd dvd starts getting accepted by the masses, you won't have squat for footage.

the point is that you could start shooting it now, because the kind of work you do has archival value... down-rez it to standard dvd during the edit, but cover your future bases by keeping the original hd footage.

i create and sell my own dvd's from scratch, which is where you should be headed with the hd footage... you'll be one up on the competition when the time comes.

<<I will wait for the HD DVD to come out because I am a man of perfection. >>

Mate if you were a perfectionist,
you would only settle for a carbon copy of reality.

HD DVD isnt issue, you could watch DVCPRO hd on vhs and it would look better than DV.

You need to chill out before you piss off someone of note and ruin your career before its begun. Why? because your making yourself look very ignorant. And with attitude like that no one will want to work with you. no matter how good your videos are.

How do i know this? Because ive been there before, i thought i was that good. All this up talking stems from really being insecure.

And Really what the difference b/w shooting skatboarding or shooting football, or car racing or any other sports. So if you wanna be a big shot go over to the skate forum and tout yourself over there, im sure theyll buy into it.

take my advice and cop it on the chin (as we say down here).

And good luck.

Many years ago I was attending a photographic exhibit by the LIFE photojournalist Alfred Eisenstsadt. He was there along with the usual crowd of luminaries, critics, and photography lovers.

A father and son came up to him and asked, "Mr. Eisenstadt, what kind of camera do you use?"

"A Leica" Eisie replied.

"Son," responded the father, "I'm going to buy you a Leica so you can take pictures like Mr. Eisenstadt when you grow up."

I often wonder what other art has its practitioners talking so much about tools. Do painters argue about brushes? Do writers argue about word processors? Does the carpenter blame his hammer?

Well, I know a few artists that I've seen argue brushes in front of me, and my dad swore by old-fashioned wooden hammers for years, despite everything else that has come out... so yeah, I guess everyone does (kinda like the wooden bat vs aluminum bat in baseball...)

The shame of it is that our tools cost so much... (when compared to a hammer or paint brush). Oh, but moving images are so much more rewarding (at least to me...)

Kevin and Gary,
The answer is, bad artists argue about brushes, bad pianists argue about pianos, etc.
In any field, there are those who are "gear" oriented, and those who simply "DO." Many people lose focus of the actual subject matter, and also often use their gear talk to obfuscate their own insecurities and ineptitude. I've been intimately involved in music, sculpture, and many other creative mediums my whole life, and I know that the natural human response is to talk about the toys, and even blame them when things aren't going well.
Jascha Heifetz could make Beethoven sing on a $3 fiddle; Cartier-Bresson could create a masterpiece with a mayonaise jar and some dirty film.

I do it myself....in stead of focusing, and actually creating good work, I read online forums, check out camera websites, and focus on what I'd like to have, rather than making do. It's fun, and it gives me an excuse for my lack of experience. Not a good one, but an excuse.

I've found that when you start focusing on how other people suck, or don't do things right, it takes away from you personally making yourself better. A better way would be to focus on what someone could have done better, and specifically what one can do better oneself.

Likewise, it is probablly better (I'll say probablly, because I'm not the authority here or anywhere else) to learn to master whatever equipment you have, and learn to use it to its absolute fullest capability. Once (If) you get to the level that you have outgrown that equipment, your choice of new equipment will be clear.
In photography, the camera is almost totally unimportant in the grand scheme of things, all that matters is a. the lens, b. the film, and C. how the photographer shines on the film.

The only thing that matters to the audience is the final touch on the canvas, not which brush was used, and what animal's fur was used to make it.

Oh, and by the way, there are absolutely paint-brushes that reach into the thousands. Japanese caligraphy brushes (also used for ceramics) can often cost as much as a Toyota.

Lawrence, fine words. I am one of these people who can easily fall victim to gear talk as a substitute for DOING it. I'm a techy, unashamedly, but it often can cloud over the desire that sites there to make something with it. It's often safer just to look at websites, dream of gear and buy it and play, rather than go out there and god forbid, make a movie, and another and another, knowing that you'll probably be pretty crap at first ;)

Aaron

TO GREG:

Greg, I am a skateboard photographer and I have done some filming in the past and I'd like to point out a few things.
Indeed, $5-$6K is a lot for filming skateboarding stuff if you're a freelancer and even more if you're a freelancer not in California... but believe me, the day this camera comes out I bet people like Ty Evans and Greg Hunt and other filmers that work for skateboarding companies will have one.
Don't forget that for skateboarding companies videos are their main marketing tool... and they want it to look good.

Think about this: 720/60P footage will give you smoother slowmo's than you've ever seen and if you downscale 720 footage to SD it will look better than any DV cam.
1080 footage downscaled will look even better... but cheaper HDV will look bad because there's just too much motion in skateboarding for HDV to look good.

And I fully aggree with you on ESPN and Skateboarding. ESPN doesn't count in the skateboarding world... but that doesn't mean their camerapeople aren't any good (in other areas).

And finally: you and I know skateboarding isn't a toy-business but there are other ways to point that out than to get angry and making yourself (and skaters in general) look bad.
Plus, it doesn't make sense to state that this camera is too expensive for filming skateboarding and then to say that Ty drives an A8 and has 3 dvx's and is oh-so-rich... it either means that a) you are spending too much time shouting about HD-DVD on forums and not enough time trying to get where Ty and Fred are at or b)that you should ask more money for the stuff you film.

The fact that many of us on this thread are interested in technology is not surprising. Whatever part of our brain controlling that interest is working a little harder that most people's. Years ago I was entranced by and lucky enough to work with Imax. That was an exciting experience, but it was just if not more exciting to see viewer's faces as they watched and experienced it for the first time.

But the point Lawrence makes so succinctly is that in our field, as intruiging and fun as it is, technology has to take a back seat to the act of making the film. Make your first "film" on an old VHS camcorder. Our kids and their friends, who all grew up to be actors, filmmakers and musicians, made such films when they were young. That they are still hilarious to watch today (obviously as parents we're biased) is testimony the fact that creativity comes first, then technolgy .

Which brings us to the good news. If we build relationships and grow as human beings, and if and when you get to the big leagues, you understand the collaborative nature of this business. And you have teams of people in charge of each technology. All of which adds up to a movie. Hopefully one worth watching.

HA, I wasn't mad or yelling at all. This is why IM, EMAIL, and MESSAGEBOARDS are BAD. LOL POINT IS. Do you guys really think it will be 10k? 10k is a lot of money for me. And everyone will have to start hitting up the gym because she looks like a heavy one. People think i'm nuts when i'm filming 40 second lines for 40 minutes with a Bescor light and batter +fisheye lens at night because it's heavy and just looks BIG. I tell them it takes a man to operate a DVX100 while skating 10 mph. So what's the final word, does this thing record HD on tape or just the P2 cards?

You had to have had ready more than a nonworking model prototype at nab, if you're delivering a product in sept. Why didn't you show it ? From being a prototype building engineer for 9 years , this sounds like there's a problem - I hate to be the fly in the ointment.

Hi Kurth, You make it sound as though it might be a simple matter to put this all together. Let me say that within the framework of this little camera, if we were to implement all of the variable frame rates, there are 72 "formats" to test and fully engineer to completion from a P2 memory card. And that is just the record side. Then let's look at the rest of the camera and try to figure out how to optimize the performance.

Frankly I don't see a problem and we did not say September, we said 4th quarter. That means anything within the 4th quarter of 2005. Now if we look at our track record, we showed the mockup DVX100 at NAB2002, and delivered in October of 2002. I am hoping for a repeat of this, but the tasks to accomplish are a little more weighty than that of the DVX, but to me, 4th quarter still seems possible.


Hope this helps,

Jan

So what's the final word, does this thing record HD on tape or just the P2 cards?

Just on the P2 cards.

Best,

Jan

Howdy from Texas,

HA, I wasn't mad or yelling at all. This is why IM, EMAIL, and MESSAGEBOARDS are BAD.
The point that you're trying to make is that it's difficult to properly convey emotions through text, and I agree. But we try to make a difference with this message board.

Do you guys really think it will be 10k? 10k is a lot of money for me.
You're speaking in relative terms. $10k is a lot of money for *you* (and for me) but for many people it's a real bargain. The DVCPro HD format has never before been made available so inexpensively.

And everyone will have to start hitting up the gym because she looks like a heavy one.
Again, relative terms... it's actually very small and very lightweight for a DVCPro HD camera. Try skateboarding with a VariCam and you'll see how good you've got it with the HVX200.

So what's the final word, does this thing record HD on tape or just the P2 cards?
Jan just answered that it records HD to the P2 cards only, and it's important to understand why. A DVCPro HD tape transport would have cost about $20k just for the mechanism. The idea was to keep the total price down below $10k, so that pretty much ruled out any kind of tape transport except DV25 (that is, standard definition DV or DVCPro). Hope this helps,

When I said everyone will be hitting the gym, I was talking about skateboard filmers (sorry about that). I'm developing back problems after filming lines with my full set up at night. You would never film a full lenth skateboard movie with a Varicam. After a vx1 vx2 dvx100 people jump over to 16mm. Which is also pointless because of the price. The only people who film 16mm are guys who get that stuff for free from the companies they shoot for. I would LOVE to shoot 16mm, but again, you wouldn't make a full lenth video out of 16mm just sections like Transworld videos do.

Great discussion guys.

Lawrence is absolutely right: people are focusing on tools a little too much on the web. But still: it's a great source of technical information :-)

Nice to see that some people are more focusing on "artistical side" versus "technical"

If you've ever rented or purchased a Superbit DVD, and wanted to know why they call it that..
Superbit is creating a DVD from uncompressed HD source(1080 24p). and creating a DVD that plays back video and audio at the maximum allowable bitrate (Most DVDs don't). No behind the scenes, no previews, no extras. Just great looking/ great sounding DVD. More detail, in every way.

It's been a pretty good marketing tool for Sony to the high end Home Theater crowd. With HDV or this new panasonic, there is no reason you all couldn't do something similar. Then when an affordable HD standard makes it's debut, you will be ready.

Back to the original topic: I hope they will also sell this camera without the P2 cards. I could afford a new laptop to record the video for the cost of one of those cards.

yeah that's insane. Don't they only hold about 10minutes of HD video??? They should have atleast 40gigs

For Kenn Christenson, yes, they will sell the HVX200 without P2 cards for $5995.

For Geg Harris, it's not insane when you consider that this is DVCPro HD recording for under $10k. It's not insane, it's quite reasonable for the money. As long as you have a way to download cards on location, then there really is no maximum recording limit, only a maximum single shot length. Even the AJ-PCS060 is small enough to be worn on your belt, is battery powered and holds 60gigs. With two cards you have practically limitless recording for hours and hours. Hope this helps,

"For Kenn Christenson, yes, they will sell the HVX200 without P2 cards for $5995."

Well, I hope it's not just for little ol' me. :)

I'm sure there are lots of budget minded people out there willing to use the old laptop until the P2 prices drop.

Hey guys off topic, but we were talking about skateboarding and the DVX, here is my newest promo for my video.
thanks
http://homepage.mac.com/jredwards4/iMovieTheater8.html

Great Job Greg...............
doug