Ok, so when, rendering an MPEG-2 file from Vegas 4, what is the difference between "DVD NTSC" and "DVD NTSC Video Stream", when choosing a template from the MainConcept MPEG-2 Encoder?

Also, It seems that when I create a DVD, my blacks/dark areas are significantly boosted. Am I to assume this is the blacks getting bumped from 0% to 7.5%? It seems to wash out my movie, to some degree--you can see a lot of detail, everywhere, even in areas where it was supposed to be pretty dark. I've also noticed blacks taking on a noticably greenish tinge--though this could just be something that resulted from color correction, amplified by the aforementioned black level boost. Any way to tweak this? Anyone know what I'm talking about?

Lastly, audio. I know you guys told me to render my MPEG-2s in Vegas, and not let Roxio do it as it's getting ready to burn a DVD, so this is likely my fault. However. . .I got to see three of my shorts screened today, luckily by less than ten people. The first one was fine, the other two had audio issues. Some audio stuff would be fine, other stuff would be gone, or barely audible. When I created the original AVIs, they were in stereo, and stereo left and right were the same audio track, essentially. They were all created by the same method, so I don't know why the first short was fine, and the other two weren't. I came back home and played the AVIs that the MPEG-2s were created from with Windows Media Player, and the audio's fine in the same spots that were problematic during the viewing. My only thought as to a solution was to render MPEG-2s, in Vegas, of these movies, and make them all mono, instead of stereo. Lesson learned. Anyone had issues like this?

If I remember correctly, DVD Video Stream just outputs the video only. While
the other one outputs both video and audio in the MPEG (which you don't
really need or want for DVD).

Are there any settings in the advanced screen when exporting to DVD to set
the black level etc.? If you set Vegas up with the broadcast safe levels
perhaps this problem gets solved as well?

I currently don't have Vegas handy so can't check any of this.

You could be right about the stream thing but, I'm pretty sure I used the "video stream" option for some other MPEG-2s that I rendered, and it has a checkable box to include audio.

It did some really weird crap just now. The file finished rendering, and I tried to play it through Windows Media Player (which plays other MPEG-2s I've encoded the same way), and I get this quick little digital "beep", and then it stops playing. Also, it doesn't show me video, just one of the patterns that accompanies audio only files, just so's you have something to look at.

I'll try messing with the black levels, but it's kind of a time consuming test, since I'd have to burn a DVD just to see the results of my tweaks.

Might be time for a system reboot? :)

Keep in mind that what you select are TEMPLATES, or defaults. Of course
you have an option to still include the audio (in advanced), but then you
are deviating from the template/defaults.

Righto.

Ok. . .if one were using Roxio to do the actual DVD structuring and burning, what settings would one use to render the MPEG-2s with Vegas's Main Concept encoder?

If one created one's movie with blacks at 0% and maintained that all the way through the process, despite color correction and everything else, what would one do?

Okay, so I did some tests, and I here's what I got so far. Haven't messed with the black issues, just audio right now.

So, keep in mind:

1) creating MPEG-2s in Vegas 4 using MainConcept encoder
2) burning actual DVD disc with Roxio easy media creator 7.

I made three MPEG-2 files, and burned them all to a DVD to see how they played.

One was using them template "DVD architect NTSC video stream" (for which I included audio)

Another was using the DVD NTSC template, default settings

Another was using the DVD NTSC template, changing the audio to mono (to combat the issue I mentioned on the initial post in this thread).

What I found is that the one using DVD NTSC, with default settings, works fine (though there was some parts where the picture stuttered--I think this might be the player, though. I think I've seen this before), audio's there in all the right places. The other two, no audio at all. Apparently, it won't do mono for some reason? What's up with that? Do I need to make the AVI mono first (by selecting left/right audio only), before I create the MPEG-2 in mono? I don't know how the hell I got it to work right before, and so easily. I wish files could tell you what settings within a program were used to create them.

Well, that didn't work. I put the original AVI in the timeline, made the audio mono, left channel only, and rendered the MPEG-2 mono as well. When I burned it to DVD and played it, no audio. In the VEgas timeline, however, the MPEG-2 has audio.

I also noticed it lagging/stuttering again, and in the exact same places as on the last disc I burned.

Are you saying it is stuttering even with the method that works (DVD NTSC)?
If not, perhaps it is best to see what the exact differences are between the
templates (in the advanced settings)?

What you can also do is convert the track to mono (if that solves your
problem) and then expand it to stereo again (creating two identical tracks)
and then just burn a stereo DVD?

Yes, it stutters even when it works fine otherwise.

On this particular movie I've been using to test these methods, The first shot is somewhat long. It's a CU of a guy looking slightly off cam and talking. At some point, he looks down, and the camera follows the movement of his head. When that happens, that's when it stutters.

I think I tried the mono to stereo thing. . .I can't recall now. I think it came out silent.

Do you have another authoring program? Or perhaps a burning program (like
a late version of Nero) that can burn DVD Video discs with a supplied MPEG-2
file? If so, try that and see what happens.

I haven't heard of anyone yet that has these kind of problems with Vegas +
DVD Architect for example. It might be that your authoring program is just
not liking what it is getting.

Yeah, Roxio doesn't have much of a reputation (that's what came with my burner). Are there any very cheap or free authoring programs besides it, out there? I don't do commercial DVDs at all, so spending a buttload kinda works against me.

Well, you could try a demo of Sony's DVD Architect to just see if Roxio is the
problem or not. Otherwise I would look at (a demo of) Nero, it is considered
the best burning application on Windows and it does support basic Video DVD's
(without any menu's I think). However it does cost some money.

Another cheap (haven't used it) DVD authoring program seems to be DVD Lab
(do a search on Google).

That's the best I can come up with. But some demo's at least should help
you figure out where the problem is.

Good luck!

Nero can do DVD menus. In fact, according to their web site Nero now supports animated menus/buttons, background music, and playing a video clip before the menu loads.

http://ww2.nero.com/enu/NeroVision_Express_3_Features.html#menu

So I downloaded a nero demo. . .but it seems to be for CDs? The interface doesn't indicate in any way that it's for burning DVDs (kinda looks like the Windows Media PLayer interface if you put in "skin" mode).

I tried Roxio again, with all my little movies, and the audio's fine, no lag (at least on the player I played the DVD on), but I still have that issue with blacks. It's like it wants you to see everything, so it boosts dark areas, even when they're supposed to be dark and without much detail. Can't find a setting on there to make it stop. Even the black during opening titles is boosted to a grey.

You have to use the NeroVision part of the Nero suite to author DVDs. It should be under Start>Programs>Nero>Nero Digital>NeroVision Express.

Josh,
Sounds like your Black levels are getting 'set up' twice. Instead of 7.5 its now 15? Somewhere in the process, you are adding settup, and then in the disc burning, it's getting added again? Just a thought. That would explain the milky looking blacks.

Josh: follow Richard's advice. Also, the main burning application will either
come up with a wizard where can select DVD or in advanced mode where
you can select DVD from the pulldown (CD is the default) to allow burning
of DVD data discs or DVD video discs (if you already have a VIDEO_TS
directory on your harddisk).

Good luck!

Thanks Boyz. I'll mess with it. I also posted in the Roxio forums.

Ok, so, I went and bought Nero. I'm still getting the same issue, with the blacks, and I wondered if anyone knew how to adjust setup? I looked in the manual, and in the help files, and got nothin'.


I looked at the original AVI of one movie, via Vegas 4 and my NTSC monitor, and, into the same monitor (different input), I plugged in my DVD player, and a burned DVD of the same movie, and did an A/B comparison. The blacks are way washed out on the burned DVD vs. the original AVI, both in the letterbox (I did 16:9 with a mask), and in the actual picture portion of the frame. I don't know if this helps anyone or means anything, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

if you used nero strictly for burning, it will not alter the picture in any way.

try outputting a short dv avi file to your hard drive, and see if you can get nero to encode it, and create a dvd... that way, you'll be bypassing a big part of your present workflow, in an attempt to isolate where the problem is happening.

Here's a new twist.

Just for fun, instead of playing the DVD in my DVD player, I played in the computer's DVD-R drive, and compared the image to the MPEG-2 on my hard drive, that was burned to said DVD. On my computer monitor, they look the same. That is to say, when played on the computer's DVD drive, there's no issue with blacks.

So. . .

Is is the DVD player itself, or the Svideo or RCA cable that's screwing up the blacks?

I could understand if it was just one DVD player, but every one I try it in does the same thing, and I've tried both S-video and RCA cables, with the same results.

I saw some of my movies projected recently, and the funky black levels were present there to. Weird.

My guess would be the DVD player. All DVD players (at least in the U.S.) add 7.5 IRE setup when outputting the signal. Check the setup menu for your DVD player to see if it has a setting for the black level. If it does, try turning it off and see how the picture looks.

Dude! Brilliant.

But let me ask you this: if I've seen other people's personal projects projected and they looked ok, how come mine looked jacked up? If it was on the same DVD player, that is.

Mmmm, you got me there. Maybe they crushed the blacks during editing? The only way to tell would be to run the video signal through a waveform scope.

I had a similar black level "problem" happen to me a couple years ago. After a good bit of head scratching and some tests, I finally concluded it was the DVD player adding the U.S. NTSC setup, which is correct for normal displaying on SD televisions. Now our family has an HDTV, so I set the black level menu setting to off on the DVD player.

See this other thread about black level problems with a DVD: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=41911

Thanks, dudes.

I've been thinking about this some more. Besides the possibility of analog video being captured with setup added (see link to other post I provided above), there is also the possibility of the DV camera recording video with 7.5 setup. I know the Sony PD150/170 has a switch to do this, and it sounds like according to a post on another forum that the Canon XL-1s does as well. I don't know if any other camcorders have it.

If, whether during analog capture or during the shooting process 7.5 IRE setup is added, then when the final DVD is played back and the DVD player adds the 7.5 IRE setup, all your blacks end up at 15 IRE and you have an ugly mess.

I'd recommend checking your camcorder to see if it is set to record with or without setup.

There is definitely not a switch to add/take away setup on the XL1s. You can adjust the pedestal, but I never do.

Well, that rules out that potential problem for your case.

The XL1S has a "setup" slider that control the black level. But not a fixed 7.5
IRE switch indeed.

I have to admit to not reading this entire thread but, DVD players themselves add setup on their output. Your master tape may have the correct 7.5 level on it but when you encode for DVD, you actually should start with the black levels at 0 IRE. You can substantiate this by playing a bit of one of your tapes and switching between the tape and a DVD of the same material.

I do believe this is a result of film, from which most DVDs were created in the begining, having no setup levels - basically 0 IRE. To display film on an NTSC television, they have to add setup so the blacks will display correctly on the screen. What better place to do this than in the DVD players themselves.

To keep this from happening, you will end up making 2 masters. One with 7.5 for analog tapes and one at 0 IRE for DVD encoding.

Some DVD Encoding software allows you to choose with or without setup. YMMV.

Good luck to all. For extensive information on balck levels and setup, do a forum search for those topics. We have had many heated discussions on the subject lately. Seek out Graeme Nattress web site also as he has finished a lengthy but detailed article on the issue.

Sean McHenry

Sorry if you already know this - but I haven't seen it mentioned in this thread...

In regard to the mpeg2 render settings - dvd architect ntsc is indeed just the video stream unless you select to include audio, but this, as well as the the other default ntsc preset are far from the best quality.

They are single pass vbr at an average of 6,000,000 bps.

Might I suggest playing with the settings. If it's a short piece, then click on the custom button, under the project tab choose best. Under the video tab change the average bps to 8,000,000 and choose 2 pass vbr, or alternatively choose cbr at 8,000,000bps
change the lower bps to 4,900,000 or whatever it is.
you'll probably more than double your render times but, I'm one to prefer to wait the extra time for quality

Then do a seperate render for ac3 audio and you can match them up in dvd architect.

Second thing is the stuttering you mentioned - sometimes, in vegas you'll need to reduce interlace flicker to get rid of this effect.
Right click on the video event, choose 'switches' and check 'reduce interlace flicker'
no more stutter

Thanks, but a couple of things:

I don't have DVD architect, so are the DVD architect stream settings even useful?

Also, if I have a project made entirely progressive (shot in Frame mode on XL1s, no interlaced material added) do I need the "reduce interlace flicker" switch on?

I guess what I'm saying is the presets are rarely useful, regardless of what authoring software you use

and if it's progressive, the no - in that case, I don't know why you see stuttering