I just got back from a rehearsal for a wedding this Saturday and am trying to remain as professional as possible, despite the restrictions I was given- and the stubbornness in which the priest gave them to me. The funny thing is that I took the time to introduce myself (quite courteously) to the officiate- only to have him pretty much disrespect me and wave me off in ten seconds. Seriously, it was about ten seconds of his precious time. I think they must really dislike videographers at this church. Mercerville, NJ... (no names shall be mentioned)

Rule one- I cannot move around (at all) from my corner- which is not a very favorable spot at all. My position will only provide back-shots as the action all faces forward and I am behind everything. I will be lucky to catch any face shots at all. I won't even go into detail about the procession- that'll be blocked by standing congregation.

Rule two- The priest WILL NOT wear a lav. mic. Rudely denied that request by talking about it interrupting the PA system in the church. He would not listen to the option of using the Iriver (self contained recorder) brushed that off- walking away before I could finish.

Rule three- I cannot place anything up on the podium- (My Iriver). Nothing is allowed up on the altar area.

This whole event will rely on one lav. mic on the groom (probably will not reveal this fact) -- an Iriver placed on the best man (hoping to catch SOMETHING thru it) and the rest is all on-camera microphones. I am doomed- anyone ever hear of anything this strict- any diplomatic resolutions to handling the bride and groom? I really am dreading this coming event!!!

Often I find that the officiant in these situations has had bad experiences in the past.They also like to have complete control so that .....nothing goes wrong.Can't blame them for there attitude.So , how to resolve ?
One thing is time , you need to take time to court them.Show them your work proving you respect the sanctity of marriage and in fact want to portrait the religious aspect of the marriage ceremony.
Letters of recommendation from other officiants stating that you act very professional and have always respected their requests will go a long way.
Try to impress how important accurately recording the ceremony is to your client and that just like the officiant you need everything to be perfect with no disruptions.Just like the officiant you want your production to reflect the moments of the ceremony not only to the B&G but anyone else who views it.
To do all this the audio is crucial... people should hear the B&G and officiant as if they where there.
You get the idea.Sell the professional approach as to how it benefits the officiant,church,B&G, and any who view the final product.
Regardless of your success in getting what you need send the officiant a copy of the ceremony to show the good or the bad.This will set things up for the next time.
Some officiants will then suggest you in the future as they are so pleased.
The best to you.

Saturday doesn't give you much time. Talk to the B&G, explain the problem, and it is their problem. They can talk to the officiant if they choose, or run the risk of crappy coverage. Hopefully your contract covers you, I have a "location" clause in mine that covers me against all uncooperative people. The mic on the groom might work out fine, lots of people use only this for coverage anyway. You may want to double mic him, wireless plus iriver, with one on his left lapel near the bride & preacher. Not much to do about camera angles, unless you can add a third camera on the other side in the wings.

It is the B&G problem though, not yours. Tell them ahead of time (Friday, not Saturday), give them some ammo to use if they want to talk to minister (Like some possible compromises, you will be respectful, even stay put once ceremony starts, etc.) Do the best you can within the rules they get and don't stress. Make up for it with excellent coverage of evertything else.

I've had a similar situation. I would suggest talking to the couple, and seeing if they suggest that you bend the rules a bit. When this has happened to us and we discuss it with the couple, they often say they would like us to move more than the minister would like, but it is in the couple's best interest and we have had no problems as of yet.

Just an idea.

Don't forget it's a church, a place of worship first of all.
We are guests there and have to follow the rules, not agree and then do what we want. That really will be unprofessional and confirm the priest's opinion.
I have had 1 wedding, where I wasn't allowed in the church at all! At another, I had to hide behind a pillar and just have the lens clear and I couldn't move.
The couple chose the church so they and you have to accept the limits and make do. You will just have to adapt and expand other sections. If the worst happens, you will just have to re-enact parts elsewhere.

I have it written in my contract that it is couple's responsibility to work out these details with the priest ahead of time. I give them short list of questions about the very restrictions you describe.

There are quite a few clergy who get annoyed with Videographers, Photographers, Wedding Planners, etc. The more heads-up warning for everyone, the better. The officaiant runs the ceremony. Period.

I've had situations where I have to stay in the corner, but the couple knew it before I did, and they still ended up happy (even though I didn't get a good demo out of it).

SOME WILL DISSAGREE and I suppose that is what this forum is for. I can tell you this though - my opinion is based upon similar experiences at Catholic churches.

I used to attend rehearsals and introduce myself - that changed a long time ago. Now, if it's a Catholic ceremony I never do. I just show up and do my job.

My experience has been that introducing yourself opens the doors to restrictions. You can be the most professional videographer in the history of videographers and you will still get "oh by the way, we don't allow the camera over here during..." "oh by the way, you have to be over there" "oh by the you can't be here during the walk down the isle." WHAT? I can't get the bride coming down the isle????? B.S.!!! I had one officient tell me that! I could not believe what I was hearing, I said "So Rob & Chris are going to get a wedding video without the walk down the isle? The videos I make are FOREVER - and forever she will NEVER get to see her walk down the isle???" The only reaction I got was a shrug of the shoulders. They couldn't have cared less. I thought to myself... hmm for people of God it seems they really don't care about other people. I got the walk down the isle. And wouldn't you know it, after the ceremony I was asked with a big jovial smile "did you get everything?" You jerk - had I listen to you I wouldn't have. You obviously didn't care enough either way so why was I told I couldn't be there??? THE ANSWER - because I was way too polite to an authoritarian.

Forget introducing yourself. Don't even talk to them. By introducing yourself it's perceived as you saying "hey everyone, I'm a significant part of this ceremony." You're NOT - and you re-enforce the perception that you're not a significant part of the ceremony by NOT INTRODUCING YOURSELF! Just show up and do your job. It's not disrespectful - it's professional. Am I jaded? Yeha, a little. If Prince Charles can get married twice with over 25 cameras - I think my customers should be able to get married with just two. There's nothing sac-religious about a camera - videographers are not evil.

I'm not a cowboy with the camera. I don't try to attract attention. I never go on the alter (Catholic church). I always get the procession and then I move out of the way as best I can. I've been complimented over and over and over about how professional I was - so I must be doing something right.

btw- If the officient is using a PA why do you need a mic on him anyway?

I was shooting a TV show in an Episcopal Cathedral, on film not video. Lot of lights and other equipment, including a crane. I asked the Rector about what was off limits (had a bad experience in another church). I thought his reply was great. He said that nothing was off limits, it is the people that make this place sacred not the building or anything in it.

SOME WILL DISSAGREE and I suppose that is what this forum is for. I can tell you this though - my opinion is based upon similar experiences at Catholic churches.

I used to attend rehearsals and introduce myself - that has changed. Now, if it's a Catholic ceremony I never do. I just show up and do my job.

My experience has been that introducing yourself opens the doors to restrictions. You can the most professional videographer in the history of videographers and you will still get "oh by the way, we don't allow the camera over here during..." "oh by the way, you have to be over there" "oh by the you can't be here during the walk down the isle." WHAT? I can't get the bride coming down the isle????? B.S.!!! I had one officient tell me that! I could not believe what I was hearing, I said "So Rob & Chris are going to get wedding video without the walk down the isle? The videos I make are FOREVER - and forever she will NEVER get to see her walk down the isle???" The only reaction I got was a shrug of the shoulders. They couldn't have cared less. I thought to myself... hmm for people of God it seems they really don't care about other people. I got the walk down the isle. And wouldn't you know it, after the ceremony I was asked with a big jovial smile "did you get everything?" You jerk - had I listen to you I wouldn't have. You obviously didn't care enough either way so why was I told I couldn't be there??? THE ANSWER - because I was way too polite to an authoritarian.

Forget introducing yourself. Don't even talk to them. By introducing yourself it's perceived as you saying "hey everyone, I'm a significant part of this ceremony." You're NOT - and you re-enforce the perception that you're not a significant part of the ceremony by NOT INTRODUCING YOURSELF! Just show up and do your job. It's not disrespectful - it's professional. Am I jaded? Yeha, a little. If Prince Charles can get married twice with over 25 cameras - I think my customers should be able to get married with just two. There's nothing sac-religious about a camera - videographers are not evil.

I'm not a cowboy with the camera. I don't try to attract attention. I never go on the alter (Catholic church). I always get the procession and then I move out of the way as best I can. I've been complimented over and over and over about how professional I was - so I must be doing something right.

This sounds 100% right to me. I have been introducing myself and such but you are correct and I will follow this advice wholeheartedly from now on, thank you

I have only been recording weddings for two years, but I've never had a Catholic Priest tell me I absolutely cannot shoot the procession. When shooting with two or more cameras, I always run the front camera, which for the procession is handheld while I'm kneeling in front of the first row of pews, almost always directly in front of the groom and best man. After the bride and her father arrive, I keep low and slowly scoot away without drawing attention to myself. (All eyes are on the couple at this point anyway.) Then I lock the camera on its tripod positioned off to the side or in the rear of the church, letting the zoomed-in B camera cover the "hand-off."

It's in our best interest to err on the side of caution by introducing ourselves to the priest, especially if we want to ever shoot in that church again. The more we disrespect "house rules," the more unwelcome videography will become in churches for any event. I've had to shoot "back only" processions, and the B&G were comfortable with that because they knew the rules at their church. Lots of preceremony preparation can go a long way in compensating for a back-only procession. It's not ideal, but as long as the clients know it's the church's decision and not yours, you'll be okay. If the photographer's allowed to shoot the procession, it's worth apporaching him and asking to use a few of his or her shots in the video. That will probably cost a few dollars, but at least the coverage will be in the video. Better than back-only. I wish I thought about this last summer when I had to shoot several single-camera weddings from up in a choir/organ loft.

Good luck.

"Back only processions" !!! HELL NO. You may be o.k. with that but not me. No offense Tim but you invite this kind of stuff by sparking up a conversation with someone who really doesn't understand or care about what you are trying to accomplish.

I live in reality Tim... here's something I KNOW about "house rules" - they are different for different people. Take that photographer for instance that you said you would get photos from. So what's the deal on that? The photographer is privy and you're not? I'll also go out on a limb and suggest that there's a real good chance that there are other videographers who shot at that same church who got the procession head on! It wouldn't surprise me one bit. Let's put it this way... it would surprise me about as much as if I was sitting at a train station and trains arrived.

I've rarely been even talked to (face to face) about camera positions or house rules before or after a Catholic ceremony since I adopted the keep my mouth shut policy. As long as you're professional there's no need to occupy your mind with worries about being invited back. I stress - be professional.

Here's more reality... the turnover in Catholic churches is unbelievable. I've been to Catholic churches that cycle through priests just about every year. There's this one Catholic church about 30 minutes away I've shot 4 times in 3 years and every time I go there - there are different people who've never seen me before. Not that it's even an issue, but I'm certainly not fearful of not being invited back there.

Just be professional and keep your mouth shut. It works.

I've gotta say, Craig.....that makes sense to me too. My first wedding (April 9th) was in a Catholic church, and they laid all kinna rules on me, and I had to remain in the loft the entire time while the (dual) photogs were both in front and behind the bridal march just snapping away, and I had not been given any rules until I introduced myself to the church dictator....I mean director. The priest was a real butt about granting me a moment to wire him too. The arrogance of these people was amazing, and I wonder if their mama's raised them that way, or if they are truly innovators.

BTW, What real part does the church play in whether or not you get invited back? I really dont think that the moment you walked in the doors the church would run up to the couple and say they can use you as a videographer, would they? I mean, as long as you do indeed obviously try to be out of the way and not draw attention to yourself, just do your job and be friendly, it wouldnt seem like a problem....and sense it is the client who does the inviting and money spending, I think their needs and wants come first, no?

As far as advice to the original poster (assuming you got up and checked this before heading out this morning), I would just accept it this go around as something you can do nothing about, and do the best you can within the restrictions.....once you've been given the rules, it's too late and you will indeed look like a punk (to the rule givers) if you go against them. But in the future, as long as a rule wasnt given, you cant follow it! This is a delicate balance to keep from heading into "maverick" territory, and I understand some will frown here...but it does make sense to me.

Back to the "how do you handle it" aspect.

If you don't feel like getting confrontational start by explaining this to the couple. At that point, insist you get LOTS of pre and post ceremony shots. I mean lots.

Here is something I picked up from the "Breaking out of the Box" DVD. I like the double mic'ing the groom idea - do that and make sure one is an omni on the officiant side. Tap the PA if you can too. Make sure you get some good audio.

Now you time compress the ceremony by using what little good ceremony footage you have and combine it with the pre and post shots you got. Sort of create a montage of it all and lay the audio over it combined with some gentle music. Maybe start with the officiants intro and then intercut the vows. Cut the officiant out as much as you can (take that). Sounds wierd but I saw this done on the DVD and it really works nicely.

Mike

you know what, the concern with what a priests wants is NOT my concern..
Like him, i am there to do a job, if he stops me from doing that i will do what i can to DO the job, if it means pissing him off, he can take that up with the couple and the couple can discuss it with me after the event.

This is not negotiable. Hes not paying me, they are. They are my boss for teh day, not him.
Typically on a shoot, i suss out the area and i say to the priest, "Hi Im Pete, Ill be setting up here, here and here, If they try to tell me to move or go someplace else, i tell them, "Im sorry, but the design of this church dictates that i must be here for optimal coverage"
If they want to argue or touch my gear, i tell them to take it up with the couple as they are the ones who have given me the freedom to shoot at my own discretion.
This is a reason why i do not attend rehearsals.

I can be a real wanker when i need to be and when im working, i will do what i can to make sure i have the material i need for the type of presentation im creating for the client.

Ive had priests tell me where to set up, ive had others tell me to not to do certain things before ive even done them (assuming i would do something hes prolly seen done before) Ive even had priests tell me that i couldnt mic the groom because "our church has just invested in a $30k sound system so you wont need that" My response to that was "well if you can dampen that hideous reverb, i wont need mic him, but until then, hes wearing the mic because he has already paid to wear it. You can give him the refund."
Mind you this was an extreme cicumstance, but I needed to be a prick to do my job. Other times, ive been able to stash the mic under the grooms coat, so its not all conflict as this whole thread seems to make out. There are ways around this..
Hell ive even had grooms tell me they dont want to wear a mic and im like.. "ok, we'll plant it" and the Priests have been fine with that too..
so theres a mixture of responses..

Hell, i think its funny when a priests says "no flash photography" lol
Weddings are the most photographed event in a personas history and the nerve to say that is appalling.. but this is the mentality of some of these priests..

Other times, ive come in to save the day, where an Orthodox church had NO WINDOWS... and the main light (single 1500w floodspotlight from the ceiling) was out and no shit, it was so dark in there you could barely see..
Its funny as i asked the priest that "it would be beneficial for all if we had some light in here.. may I? "
He said to me that he didnt want to get distracted.. i mean seriously.. cmon.. whats more important?? that people can see or that HE's inconvenienced??
I pulled out my 10ft light stands and ran my lowel totas with brellas.. not only did it fix the problem, but people started clapping when they were turned on..
Even the photographer was grateful..
Even running their own ceiling light would have sucked as it would have created that black bags under the eyes look..

So priests and churches are not perfect, and usually theyre wrong when it comes to WHAT WE HAVE TO DO, but being professionals, we must do our best to make do with the environments given to us, just dont be afraid to be pushy, and dont take what they say about where you should be as gospel (pardon the pun)
Allowing someone to dictate to you what and how you should shoot something has the potential to ruin your business...
Believe me, im listened to priests in the past and theyre "rules" are purely based on their own experiences and opinions, which mean NOTHING.
You are there to do a job ot the best of your ability, if you are hindered, you are not doing your job properly.
Respect or not, the fact that $$ have exchanged hands dictates otherwise..

People, dont forget.. youre running a business.. Video has copped such a hammering, its not funny.. why do u think photographers can get away with anything?? Be it shooting style, freedom to move, COSTS... etc etc..
We need to take up that attitude if we want to change the way people see "wedding videos"
I dont offer "wedding videos" I never have..
My shit is different and if they want a "video" that looks generic and uses generic effects, generic edits, deliveries in 6 weeks, big arsed cameras which have no place when shooting a wedding, or a pushy salesman like the guy down the road, they can go down elsewhere...

If they want a classy looking Presentation of their day, I can do that.
And if they take the chance to go with me, i will give them what they pay for.. if not more

How much conviction do you have to your business?? How serious do u take it?? How much more work do you wish to get by referals from this one particular job? How much have you invested in yoru business so far??
Sometimes we all have to come to reality and realise that sometimes we have to do things that wont please everyone..
But also realsie that if you do something (fr eg, walk in front of uncle bob to get a shot), THAT SHOT is worth far more than uncle bobs 30 seconds of discomfort.. Uncle bob can always say hi later, but you CANT GET THAT SHOT LATER... By the end of the night, he'll get over it anyway....

The priest and everyone else is of no consequence (to a point)
The Bride, the Groom and YOUR WORK is however...

Peter: you've made your point abundantly clear, and much of what you say makes sense, but it's still the case that when you're in a house of worship they do have a right to try to dictate what goes on in there...and then it's up to us to decide how to respond to that. I agree with your main point that we need to do our jobs to the best of our ability, and that may include having to break some rules, but the way you describe that seems a bit over the top.

I prefer the more simple sentiment, "it's easier to get forgiveness than permission." On that basis I can understand why you don't go to rehearsals.

Now I know why so many Clergy have negative preconcieved notions about photo/video professionals.

Imagine the nerve of a priest who is called (not just paid the going rate) as a steward of a worship building, to want to have some control over what happens during a sacremental ceremony! I mean, If I want to drill holes in the ceiling to mount my boom mic, screw him if he doesn't understand my professional standards! ROTFL!

Seriously. Its true that its the B&G's problem. That's why I stipulate that this stuff has to be hammered out beforehand. I'll make it clear to them that if the officiant says I shoot from the back, then that's what they are getting.

Now if the B&G don't like it, they can have their wedding in a park, or an old Castle, or a bowling alley...

So many people want to have their wedding in a church, but they have no idea why. They just want it "in a church" woohoo! Yippidey-dooo!.

Some folks actually have weddings in churches because they view the ceremony as a covenant between 2 people and God. In that case, all the other stuff; the cake, the flowers, the invitations, etc., is just nice fluff--even (gasp!) the all-important photo/video professionals.

Guess which philosophy the clergy person subscribes to? He's got a job to do to, and that's to maintain the integrity of the ceremony. Its like a checks & balances thing. If he gets any sort of stipend for the ceremony (not all do, mind you), its a lot less than we are getting. The trade off is we get to take more crap.

Just an idle thought here......could the negative attitude towards videographers be caused by this sort of attitude by videographers? While a highly confrontational approach makes one persons job easier, think about what that does to the next guy.

Like I said, just an idle thought.....

Mike

The event was covered today. (Don't I feel special starting this interesting post in the first place!)

I went into the ceremony thinking that I was going to be roughly 80% compliant, and take on a 20% "see what happens" mentality. I knew there would be a photographer, so I let my actions be led by how daring she was going to be. When I saw her move into position to catch the procession head-on, I was right with her. She even had pole mounted flashes held by an assistant- talk about obtrusive! I remained in my little corner as instructed for the most part. This priest was a scary old fashioned guy. He seemed the type who'd stop the ceremony and make a scene just to tell someone off- so I didn't push things. My goal was a head-on procession, and beyond that, to follow the rules- and I did.

One somewhat amusing thing I did do, however... Despite the regulation against "foreign objects" on the altar or on the podium, I put my Iriver inside an old glasses case with the lav. poking out discreetly. No one (in theory)ever moves glasses- for all they know they may belong to one of the readers coming up. So, I crossed my fingers hoping no one would move the case or report it to "the Catholic authorities", but I'm pretty sure (did not review it yet) I got a perfect recording of the readings directly from podium (free of reverb). Thanks, Mr. Runyan and other Iriver users here... I adopted the Iriver + Giant Squid microphone into my sound plan. (Also used it later at reception with simple RCA jacks off DJ mixer split to 1/8" for backup sound there- it's becoming quite a versatlie tool in my kit)

Thanks for all the replies and responses. I am not sure if I will continue to introduce myself at rehearsals. I am starting to see how it can invite restrictions. I am on the fence about the whole compliance issue. I do believe we are guests at the churches and should behave in that manner, on the other hand, if I see a photographer bend the rules- I will most likely do the same.

Good Job Freddie!!! Nice idea about hiding the iRiver in a glasses case, I never would have thought of that. Isn't the GS/iRiver a great combo??

Awesome! You should call your business Spymaster Wedding Videos! Yeah, I'm a bit on the fence about permission vs forgiveness too....its a hard call. I think what I'm going to do is flow with The Living Force. I suppose that if youre truly in synch with the flow of The Universe, then all of your decisions will have the momentum of all existence supporting you and you cant go wrong. So, rather than have a solid dogma for myself, I will just move with each moment and let my targeting device down....just trust in The Force.

Yessir, GS/iRiver combo, or really GS anything combo, does indeed rock!

Maybe I've been lucky, but I've had no church problems - and I'm very mobile during rehearsal/ceremony as well (ceremony has two ops (sometimes 3), both with custom handheld rigs or stabilizers - very little tripod use).

I tape at the rehearsal and I don't formally introduce myself to officiants until after the rehearsal is over. In my mind, I don't give them the chance to put restrictions on my work until they've already seen that I'm not going to be in their way. When I do talk to them, I try to convey an attitude of being respectful of where I am, but that I'm also the professional who knows a lot more about what I'm doing someone other than me (ie: clergy - but I never say that ;-)).

lol
i dont think some people understood my point. its happened quite often here where i have to be a little more literal and i guess its a cultural thing :)

there is a line between what you should provide your client within a presentation, and what you should accept as a location "rule"

if those 2 clash, something must be done about it..
Being a professional, you must use a mixture of discretion, respect, the right words, and above all, honesty.

wether it be to discuss it with the minister or to go over their heads, it really doesnt matter, as the fact that youre doing a job and making money from its only fair to at least make an effort to get it right.

When someone is paying me $4k to shoot their wedding, i will tell them "this is whats required" afer that, its entirely up to them.
IF and i mean IF someone tries to tell me what to do, i will politely tell them in lamens terms what the ramifications may be if i was to agree to what they tell me.

When people are paying this much money, there is no room for forgiveness...
I dont see a couple whove forked out 4k say, "oh its ok that you missed the vows because our priest wouldnt let u mic up the groom"
If that has ever happened, theyre lying.. NOTHING is ok if its missed...

Like i said, some people are a little more religious than i am, and will accept anything and everything the priest commands.
But like i said, like him, we have a job to do..

I am yet to find a priest to get upset with my actions within a church (even if i do ignore their requests.. at least i dont do it rudely.. fact is, hes not going to stop the ceremony to tell me where to go.. ) and i am yet to have a complaint made about the material i shoot or my dememeaner to anyone (be it clergy, bridal party or whatever.. )

My whole point about responding to this post was to bring an air of assertiveness to what we do. Photographers do it..(as was perfectly demonstrated in Freddi's case) and i dont see why we dont do the same..

And if people believe that being assertive is far fetched, good luck in the future, as you WILL come across someone who will try to step on you (be it a priest or photographer or whoever)

Scoff all you like, and comment about this attitude as you wish, but in the end at least my customer is happy..
This Presentation is the only real memory they will retain from that day.. the rest is what they PERCIEVED to have occured.. what i offer is what REALLY occured.. theres a difference.. and if i get that Reality messed up to satisfy one persons whim, im not doing my job properly..

From Kevin
"Peter: you've made your point abundantly clear, and much of what you say makes sense, but it's still the case that when you're in a house of worship they do have a right to try to dictate what goes on in there...and then it's up to us to decide how to respond to that. I agree with your main point that we need to do our jobs to the best of our ability, and that may include having to break some rules, but the way you describe that seems a bit over the top.

I prefer the more simple sentiment, "it's easier to get forgiveness than permission." On that basis I can understand why you don't go to rehearsals."

Of course they have a rigth to TRY to dictate, but i fail to see them dictate this same attitude to photographers.. Our response to this is to advise tehm the ramifications of their directive. It seems over the top due to my tone, in reality, its not a conflict. its actually beneficial if they are advised of this.. theyre attitude DO change once the bigger picture is explained to them.. I am yet to have a problem with talking to a priest..
As for me goin to rehearsals, there are actually many reasons why i dont.. its not just to avoid dealing with a priest.. lol my workload is so full on, its not funny.. i dont have the luxury of ducking out afew hours at a time to join in the fun, on top of that, many of my clients are in areas which are not close to my own location..

From Adam
"Now I know why so many Clergy have negative preconcieved notions about photo/video professionals."

Maybe becuase theyre over the "papparazi" attitudes and the constant flashing of cameras?? Maybe for the total zero communication some professionals have?? Maybe for the obtrusive nature of some professionals in an attempt to get the shot? Maybe for the fact that were prolly making more money than they are? Maybe for the fact that they may be of a different race to me??
There are many factors, but honest communcation is not a reason to have an attitude against someone. Also a kind thanks after the ceremony helps, as well as a dvd of the actual wedding, which they can see which portrays their church for what it is.. it also helps for when the church itself refers couples to us, as they can see a representation of what a ceremony actually looks like within that particular church..

"Imagine the nerve of a priest who is called (not just paid the going rate) as a steward of a worship building, to want to have some control over what happens during a sacremental ceremony! I mean, If I want to drill holes in the ceiling to mount my boom mic, screw him if he doesn't understand my professional standards! ROTFL!"

LOL good call, i'll pay that... but i think u miss my point..
Im not sayin they have no control.. i dont think anyone here is...

"Seriously. Its true that its the B&G's problem. That's why I stipulate that this stuff has to be hammered out beforehand. I'll make it clear to them that if the officiant says I shoot from the back, then that's what they are getting.

Now if the B&G don't like it, they can have their wedding in a park, or an old Castle, or a bowling alley..."

I totally agree, BUT if the officiant says to shoot from the back, why not try to negotiate that request?? Isnt that what professionalism is all about? The freedom to question?? The ability to advise and predict consequences? The courtesy to advise and educate someone who does not understand what we do, or moreso, the IMPORTANCE of what we do??
I dont know about you, but if im getting paid, i want the client to KNOW that i have done all i could to do the job properly...

"So many people want to have their wedding in a church, but they have no idea why. They just want it "in a church" woohoo! Yippidey-dooo!.

Some folks actually have weddings in churches because they view the ceremony as a covenant between 2 people and God. In that case, all the other stuff; the cake, the flowers, the invitations, etc., is just nice fluff--even (gasp!) the all-important photo/video professionals.

Guess which philosophy the clergy person subscribes to? He's got a job to do to, and that's to maintain the integrity of the ceremony. Its like a checks & balances thing. If he gets any sort of stipend for the ceremony (not all do, mind you), its a lot less than we are getting. The trade off is we get to take more crap"

I hear ya, and yes, it IS FLUFF... so many couples jsut want to "see themselves" and so many really dont see the ceremony for what it is.. while others are total opposites..
Either way, WE DONT HAVE TO TAKE MORE CRAP.. Video Professionals have been taking it for years and its time that attitude changed.. the fact tha we as a group have not stood up for ourselves or our professional is what keeps that "give them crap" attitude alive..


From Mike
"Just an idle thought here......could the negative attitude towards videographers be caused by this sort of attitude by videographers? While a highly confrontational approach makes one persons job easier, think about what that does to the next guy.

Like I said, just an idle thought....."

I agree... this is why its so hard to get respect to begin with.. hell, being realtively new in the wedding game (2 yrs shooting 4 yrs editing) most of teh locations i go to already have that preconception. Bad experiences in teh past.. So in turn they throw that flack back on us... but it doesnt mean im going to be like the guy before me.. its the fact that im NOT like the guy before me which makes a difference.. we cant continue to work under the onus that we will behave in a certain manner. we need to educate these people to what we do and we cant do that if the guy before us jsut does whatever he feels like..
Despite my post and the tone, some people have failed to understand the whole point..

We are seen as substandard service providers within the wedding industry. In reality, what we offer will probably last longer than any other trinket or gift they may have recieved..

Patrick has really nailed it on the head though.. and im glad someone has been able to convey his thoughts similar to my own, AND in a less rambling manner.. LOL

I totally agree, BUT if the officiant says to shoot from the back, why not try to negotiate that request?? Isnt that what professionalism is all about? The freedom to question?? The ability to advise and predict consequences? The courtesy to advise and educate someone who does not understand what we do, or moreso, the IMPORTANCE of what we do??
I dont know about you, but if im getting paid, i want the client to KNOW that i have done all i could to do the job properly...


No disagreement there. You have to try, and there's nothing wrong with negotiating.

I do however think it crosses the line of professionalism when you have talked it out, the officiant still says, "No", and you break the rules anyway.

Just to clear up my position.

My whole point about responding to this post was to bring an air of assertiveness to what we do. Photographers do it..(as was perfectly demonstrated in Freddi's case) and i dont see why we dont do the same..


That first sentence sums it up pretty well. I like to 'politely' tap someone on the shoulder if they block my shot. They turn around, see a 72mm lens opening and they pretty much all say something like, "sorry","excuse me","wow", etc. I just convey an air of 'I'm being paid to make sure I get this viewpoint' and it works.

Polite, but assertive.

My .02,

=gb=

Thanks Peter (and others) for "keepin' it REAL." Too easy to take the high road on this subject. "oh, I go up to the priest and ask him if I can convert to Catholicism before every shoot" ...plzzzzzzzz.

If someone takes the time to approach me and speak to me I'm polite, I give them my attention and I convey respect. But at this one shoot I really got the sense that "RULES" where being made up on the spot. Yes, on the spot. I was too nice and I was being patronized. "you must have just taken it personally - no one of the cloth would ever patronize someone" -possibly you have this opinion but I was there. I got the sense that the treatment was not fair and equitable and I pushed back enough to get the job done.

So anyway, here's me keepin' it REAL... it's a house of God - not the house of father Davis. Father Davis is a guest. And I believe God would want Kristin & Paul to see their wedding in all it's glory - not some compromised backshots only version. If Kristin was teary when Dad handed her off, I will do my best to get it so they both can re-live it... etc. even if I have to break a rule. That is what I owe to MY GOD and to Kristin and Paul. If in the Priests eyes that puts me in the church of Satin - then I forgive him for he does not know.

So anyway, here's me keepin' it REAL... it's a house of God - not the house of father Davis. Father Davis is a guest. And I believe God would want Kristin & Paul to see their wedding in all it's glory - not some compromised backshots only version. If Kristin was teary when Dad handed her off, I will do my best to get it so they both can re-live it... etc. even if I have to break a rule. That is what I owe to MY GOD and to Kristin and Paul. If in the Priests eyes that puts me in the church of Satin - then I forgive him for he does not know.

That's sort of my perspective on the whole thing as well - and why I work the way I do (see above).

I don't want to get into a whole religious tangent, but ultimately, while the church is the public house of God and should be respected, that's all it is. It's just a building created by man in man's view of what is necessary to be mindful. Ultimately what you get out of being in that location comes down to your religious views - but your spirituality is ultimately much more important to your relationship with God than your religious upbringing (burn me at the stake for being a heretic :)) - and doesn't come from being in a building built by man.

I'm always professional and respectful, but ultimately I'm there to do a job.

$.02

Just an idle thought here......could the negative attitude towards videographers be caused by this sort of attitude by videographers? While a highly confrontational approach makes one persons job easier, think about what that does to the next guy.

Like I said, just an idle thought.....

Mike

hello mike,

you're right on. no matter what, the videographer is just a guest...
greetings

I realised long time ago, that priests are people like every body else - some are good and some have ego issues. Also some churches, function like churches while some like business.
Therefore i treat them as they treat me. I have discovered that sometimes acting kind, is dangerous with people and with priests as well.

Anthony

"the videographer is just a guest"

no offense, but its that attitude that helps bring down the profession a notch or two.

Reason i say that is that you are paid to be there. No on or offs about it, you are paid to document their day. I dont see any other guest carrying 20k worth of camera gear and shooting a wedding..

In my view, a videographer is NOT a guest, but hes one of the few people who has already spent countless hours with the couple working out how their day will unfold. The service requires a level on intimacy with the couple that noone else would understand let alone contemplate.
Sure behaving with respect is paramount in a church, but thats just basic common courtesy and shouldnt even ned to be discussed as its a given..

Theres too many factors in the equation to only have one frame of mind when doing a job like this. Adaptability is the key, and an attitude of professionalism is what makes the difference between
"THE video guy" and
"JUST the video guy"...

"the videographer is just a guest"

no offense, but its that attitude that helps bring down the profession a notch or two.

Reason i say that is that you are paid to be there. No on or offs about it, you are paid to document their day. I dont see any other guest carrying 20k worth of camera gear and shooting a wedding..

In my view, a videographer is NOT a guest, but hes one of the few people who has already spent countless hours with the couple working out how their day will unfold. The service requires a level on intimacy with the couple that noone else would understand let alone contemplate.
Sure behaving with respect is paramount in a church, but thats just basic common courtesy and shouldnt even ned to be discussed as its a given..

Theres too many factors in the equation to only have one frame of mind when doing a job like this. Adaptability is the key, and an attitude of professionalism is what makes the difference between
"THE video guy" and
"JUST the video guy"...

hello peter,

none taken...
your still a guest, and you're paid by your customer and not the church/ priest. but it sounds a bit funny that you expect the priests understanding for the countless hours you have spend with your customer, why would, or should he care how much your set up is?
i guess the issue is that your customers needs to be the one who talks to the priest for their/ your special needs. professionalism to me is, to know when not to run across the altar..

greetings

"It sounds a bit funny that you expect the priests understanding..." Sure, I do expect more than from your average person. He is the divine one - he's wearing the robe. What, all those spiritual principals go out the window when they see a videographer? Maybe he considers us NON-MEMBERS of his organization - possibly in some cases there is this prejudice? The least that can be done is to return the same level of respect that is given him.

Stark contrast, when I walk into Congregational church 9 times out of 10, I get a lot of understanding and sometimes they are almost overly accommodating. I've had pastors walk right up to me, shake my hand, pat me on the back and ask what they can do for me.

I wouldn't recommend the customer talk to the priest about video because you're making an issue out of it. You're making it a big deal. There should be no issue. Don't go on the alter, don't move around a lot, and don't make a spectacle of yourself.

ive always publicly said that wedding videography is an invisible artform.

"and don't make a spectacle of yourself."

you hit it on the head mate... I agree wholeheartedly with that comment

Before I had read very far, I said to myself, this must be a Catholic church. I don't shoot weddings anymore for various reasons and one being because of that very crap you're dealing with. I agree with Craig. I have only had one incident involving the same restrictions and it was at a Catholic church several years ago. By the way, I didn't shoot it because there was not enough budget. All others that I have done, under 10, the preachers were very accommodating. I think one important element that is being overlooked here is that on that day, the bride owns that church and she should have the say so in how the ceremony goes just short of permanent physical alterations. Churches are a business, like it or not, and the paying customer calls the shots. Before a preacher or priest told me what I could or couldn't do, especially for such a unique event, I would just have to go somewhere else. I mean this church that I was dealing with wouldn't even allow any additional unmanned cameras! What is up with that? NONE of this has anything to do with violating or disrespecting a religious place either. My advice is just don't do the job if there are restrictions that really defeat the purpose which in this case is the need for adequate coverage to achieve a professional product. Weddings are a significant revenue stream for churches and if they started losing business because of these ridiculous rules, I guarandamntee you they would change the rules reeeeeal quick!!

I think one important element that is being overlooked here is that on that day, the bride owns that church and she should have the say so in how the ceremony goes just short of permanent physical alterations.

It's interesting that you make the catholic church assumption. Actually, most denominations and churchs, yes - it's as you put it: it's the bride (and groom)'s day so it's very accommodating. Not so with a catholic ceremony. You have to have the wedding their way, using their structure, using their readings, their vows, etc etc etc. The only real decision that the B&G has is whether they want a condensed ceremony or the full mass (I'm not catholic, but my fiance is and we just finished our Engaged Encounter a few weeks ago - end result being that we are not having a catholic ceremony). In fact, the catholic church teaches (sacrament - AFAIK - what I gathered from our weekend) that the only way to have a marriage recognized by god or the church is to have it in a catholic church. All of these things lend to why some churchs are extremely strict and structured where it doesn't make much sense (to the average person). Again, I wish to avoid a whole religious tangent, but ultimately these things happen the way they do because there's still the whole element of the priest/church being the only go-between with the mortal and spiritual. When you have this type of mindset, it's hard to find a compromise or consensus between a working professional and clergy with a perceived higher calling (no disrespect intended).


I guess ultimately you just have to grin and bear it, try to do the best job possible, and consider whether you want to work a similar gig in the future.


$.02

I want to make it clear that I'm not singling out any particular religion/church. It just so happens that both situations involved a Catholic church. Please, let's not make this more than what it is. I don't care what church it is or what the religion is. If I'm paying to rent that church (building) that day, they're going to do what I want or I ain't gonna be spending my money there, period. If I want 5 cameras, I'm going to have 5 cameras! They have every right to say, well, no you're not. At which time, I will say, I will go somewhere else. Like I said earlier. If it was known that a church was losing alot of revenue from having less weddings because of such ridiculous rules, those rules would change before they lost that kind of money. But, as long as people continue to accept the rules as they are, nothing will change. I don't have any sympathy for sheep that just fall in line. Baaaahhh!!

I want to make it clear that I'm not singling out any particular religion/church. It just so happens that both situations involved a Catholic church. Please, let's not make this more than what it is. I don't care what church it is or what the religion is. If I'm paying to rent that church (building) that day, they're going to do what I want or I ain't gonna be spending my money there, period. If I want 5 cameras, I'm going to have 5 cameras! They have every right to say, well, no you're not. At which time, I will say, I will go somewhere else. Like I said earlier. If it was known that a church was losing alot of revenue from having less weddings because of such ridiculous rules, those rules would change before they lost that kind of money. But, as long as people continue to accept the rules as they are, nothing will change. I don't have any sympathy for sheep that just fall in line. Baaaahhh!!

hello james,

mh..just wonder what direction this thread i taking. sounds like you write more about your problems with religion then videographing.

i still believe that we, as videographer, are the third party in a church, and have to act like a guest, because, that is what we are, and again, the one with the contract is your client, and you work for your client.
so if you should have any problems with the priest which can't be resolved, your client needs to be involved.

my last 2 cent

greetings

Now Karl, I don't understand the very first sentence in your reply because the very first sentence of what you quoted me saying is "I want to make it clear that I'm not singling out any particular religion/church. It just so happens that both situations involved a Catholic church."

Let's forget that the church is in this discussion at all, it doesn't matter who it is. If I am paying the bill, what I need will happen or I will go somewhere else. I think you're right that I have not been clear by seperating myself from the real client, the couple. I was speaking as if I was the couple renting the church. I would definitely speak to them first and have them speak to the church. However, if they wanted me to speak to the church, I wouldn't have any problems doing that. I also want to say that I am sounding a bit aggressive in these posts but that's just to make it interesting, you know what I mean. I do genuinely believe what I have posted but would never actually conduct myself this way with an actual client or their associates.

As far as being a guest, I agree with Peter. That's a given. I've done plenty of weddings, more than I wanted to, so I know how to conduct myself. I also have quite a bit of experience in broadcast network reality shows so I know all about being inconspicuous. In my posts I was taking up for the couple and acting as them and not making that clear as I stated above. I also said that I just wouldn't shoot the wedding because of those stupid rules. They would have to find someone else. Not only are churches businesses, but they are also places of power for some and they like you to know it. Let's definitely not turn this thread into a religion issue because I don't want it shut down because I do want to argue about this some more! Ha ha ha ha.

Craig wrote: "So anyway, here's me keepin' it REAL... it's a house of God - not the house of father Davis. Father Davis is a guest. And I believe God would want Kristin & Paul to see their wedding in all it's glory - not some compromised backshots only version. If Kristin was teary when Dad handed her off, I will do my best to get it so they both can re-live it... etc. even if I have to break a rule. That is what I owe to MY GOD and to Kristin and Paul. If in the Priests eyes that puts me in the church of Satin - then I forgive him for he does not know. "


Ha ha ha ha!!!!! Picking myself up off the floor.....rock on Craig!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm with Peter and Craig!

Videography is one of a handful of services that is privileged to attend the ceremony. Respect the rules of the church, don't do the job or do a job that doesn't have such restrictions.

There seems to be an assumption that someone is always "paying a bill to the church" or "renting the church"

That is actually not the case in many, many churches (particularly Protestant churches). Many churches have the policy of performing weddings for congregational members for free. The B&G normally slip the officiant a gratuity, have to pay musicians, pay for flowers, etc. But they are not "paying" for use of the church sanctuary.

So in these cases, does it then make a difference the the officiant has soem restrictions on what can go on during the ceremony? I would think so. And I think its dangerous to walk into a wedding with the assumption that the Bride has bought and paid for the church that day.

Again, that's why I'm in the camp of "Let's communicate all of this beforehand".

Let's stop splitting atoms here. I think that I have been very clear in several posts about what my objective is.

Colvin, I do respect the rules of the church and respectfully would not do the job if I couldn't do it in a way to give the client what they paid for.

Adam, it doesn't matter where the money is going because ultimately a person or organization is getting paid whether it's for the person performing the ceremony or for the use of the building. The building itself sure isn't charging for its use.

What on earth is an Iriver?

Cheers

Jon

It's a small device that can be used to record audio. Do a search for "iRiver" and you'll find out all kinds of information. Basically, it's an MP3 player that can be used for the purpose of recording.

"Respect the rules of the church, don't do the job or do a job that doesn't have such restrictions."

I guess the whole point of some of our posts is to air teh fact that IT DOESNT HAVE TO BE THIS WAY.

Churches dont have to have restrictions. Sure enough they expect you to conduct yourself in a certain manner, but but why is one church different to another, even though theyre the same denomination??
Different rules for different churches??

Its like going to Maccas and gettin a big mac, only to have one store uses the special sauce, while another uses ketchup/tomato sauce... ON THE SAME BURGER

Same thing on the menu, but why are the ingredients different?? Is it coz there is a different chef in THIS kitchen as opposed to the other kitchen down the road??

I dont think so Tim....

SO WHAT!!!!! Theyre human too... are we going to let some robed dude's ego dictate how we earn a living??

I dont think so Tim..
You can, but im not, and im sure quite afew others feel the same...

A bit of uniformity is necessary across the board from all parties...
and a bit of respect to the professionals who must work in these environments is required.

Its not much to ask...

The same way we have different ideas about how to do our job best, the same for church keepers, so they do what they think is for the good. The difference is that working for God is not a job. It has a deep significance; as does a church wedding ceremony. It is the ceremony that comes first, no matter what else is allowed. When the couple agrees to those rules, we are bound to work within the limits. The right thing to do is to discuss it all beforehand with the couple to realise their expectations and make them understand what may not be possible. You cannot get a good result by breaking the rules. You might be pleased by your fancy camerawork but everyone else involved is going to be spreading the word of how intrusive and disruptive videographers are. If you are lucky, your video will be seen by a handful of people. How many people are going to take away a negative view of the way you work?

"The same way we have different ideas about how to do our job best, the same for church keepers, so they do what they think is for the good. "

According to SOME of them as individuals, who are about to perform a ritual as a spiritual leader, not for the good of the couple (apart from the actual ritual itself) Some fail to see that i too am there for the good of the couple...


"The difference is that working for God is not a job. "

Really?? As far as i know, and from the priests of different denominations i am friends with (believe it or not) they all get a weekly wage. How else do they pay their bills?? Oh hang on, their piggy banks magically fill up like the basket of fish and goblet of wine..
sorry i couldnt resist that one (its an old joke i have with afew of the Orthodox priests.. lol)If you think im blaspheming, im just JOKING. No offense is intended, and a bit of humour is needed on this forum.

They actually get quite a good pay by the way. FYI I studied theology in preparation to be ordaned as a Greek Orthodox Minister, which in turn brings me back to how i became friends with these now priests.. old school friends for want of a better phrase.. hence my Nickname on other forums being Padre...
Bit of useless info there.. Moving along

"It has a deep significance; as does a church wedding ceremony."

And what i do has deep significance BEFORE, DURING and AFTER the wedding, as i am a document archiver whos archiving memories as they happen and presenting them for what they were in an artistic and professional manner.. My work will be remembered for years to come.. which is one reason i got into wedding production in the first place...

" It is the ceremony that comes first, no matter what else is allowed. When the couple agrees to those rules, we are bound to work within the limits. The right thing to do is to discuss it all beforehand with the couple to realise their expectations and make them understand what may not be possible. "

I agree 100 percent. As for limits, everyone has their own, which in any case, should be communicated clearly and consisely to all parties involved

"You cannot get a good result by breaking the rules. "

I disagree

"You might be pleased by your fancy camerawork but everyone else involved is going to be spreading the word of how intrusive and disruptive videographers are. "

This comment is quite intriguing as id like to know what a professional video producer can do to disrupt a ceremony?? Dont get me wrong, theres the obvious things one can do to make himself look like a fool, but most of us here have enough common sense to know what we can do and more importantly WHEN we can do it..

I dont know about others, however from here, i fail to see an example of behaviour during a ceremony which can be deemed disruptive. There was one comment about walking in front of the alter, but NOT doing that is obvious..

"If you are lucky, your video will be seen by a handful of people. How many people are going to take away a negative view of the way you work?"

Speaking for myself, im yet to have someone tell me to stop doing what im doing. On the contrary, on many occasions i have had guests coming up and talking to me about how good it is to actually see a wedding video guy gettin into it and having fun and gettin awesome footage while doing it.
Other times, i have guests buying me drinks and thank me and ive had countless jobs booked on the day of someone elses wedding, simply by the way i conduct myself. Ive had almost a dozen bookings in as many months by people who havent even seen the finished footage..
First impressions last. Work hard, and SHOW that u work hard and you will be rewarded..

My system works well, people like it, the couples like it, and im yet to have a priest tell me off because of it.. and i guess from my history, i have a bit more confidence in dealing with the "difficult" clergy, as i see them as equals (as in HUMAN) and not superhuman beings sent down from above to spread the word..

All i can say is that its each to their own.
You work with what works for u, and if ur happy with the results, all the better.. however there is no excuse for complacency when it comes to gettin paid for a job... and allowing a member of the clergy with a big ego dictate what you do is well.. weak..
Especially if a photographer is given free reign...(which they usually are)
As far as im concerned, roaming flash fotography is far more disruptive than moving a dolly 10 cms in between readings...

But as i said each to their own.. im over this thread

I wonder if there will be a problem when I bring in that 20 ft jib and did I mention that I may have to remove a pew to make it fit.

I had to shoot a formal chorale concert with multiple cameras in a very old chapel a couple of years ago. I know it wasn't a wedding but it was very upscale and in a holy place. I wanted to use my full size 20 ft jib. Well, it just wasn't going to fit in that side aisle with enough room to operate it. So, I suggested we temporarily remove a pew. The first response was, absolutely not! But, after some further discussion about what the jib would add to the production value, we removed the pew and replaced the space with individual chairs and the jib fit and worked perfectly. The client was very pleased with the finished product. I think if you act professional and communicate what you need to get the project done successfully then you will more than likely be accommodated.

The Vicar for next Saturday's wedding seems to be one of those 'trendy young vicar' types. He described himself to the assembled rehearsal attendees as "I'm the Director here at St. watsits".

He asked me where I was 'thinking' of putting my 'tripod' and that he would recommend just 'here'. It was the logical position so I said Ok fine "...and I will place the other one over there inside the doors". He then told me it was "...very unusual for me to allow two". 'Really' I thought... and was getting ready for a fight. He then informed me he was "...being very accommodating" towards me, but there must be "...minimal movement". I assured him this would be the case and was how I normally work.

He then said... "I keep a black list of photographers and video men, and you wouldn't want to get on that would you?". "That's fine", I said, "no problem, I keep a black list of clergy and churches, and I don't suppose you want to be on that either!" :)