Hi all,

I came across a used (olderly - not the CINE) 7+7 head with carbon fibre legs. Anybody have any experiences with this head - good OR bad?

I'll be using it for news gathering, and my camera weighs a total of 8.8 kg. At the moment I'm using a Vinten 3 head on Vinten sticks, but the Vinten has difficulties keeping balance with my cam (even though it's rated to up to 10 kg.

Will I be better helped with the Sachtler than with the Vinten - also in terms of smoothness, rigidity etc (carbon legs on the Sachtler). The Sachtler system has been offered to me for GBP 995.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts...

Peter in Denmark

It's a great head - used it many times - though I'm not sure I'd want to use it for ENG. The size and intended use of the head dictate a 150mm ball or mitchell mount -- might be too much unnecessary bulk. I recommend you have a look before you buy....

There are a couple of heads called commonly "7+7". One is the Sutdio II which weighs 10kg, the other is what I assume you've seen which is the Panorama 7+7 which is 3kg. I've used one, and it's beautifully smooth and very strudy. The counterbalance is not too versatile, it's just on or off, but one problem is that it doesn't have a sliding top plate so it can be difficult to balance the camera.
Steve

Assuming it's one of the 100mm bowl heads, these are pretty common ENG type heads and will do the business. From memory the difference between video and the film versions was where the pan lock was positioned

There are 150mm Heads the smaller being the Video 25 and the Horizon, the the larger Studio, then the even beefier 75+ jobs. The Video 25 & Horizon are perhaps a bit too heavy if you're only doing news, but great if you're doing finer production work (assuming you don't mind carrying them).

If you're not changing lenses etc all the time you can set up the tripod quick release plate onto the camera plate, so that it balances (although not as well as having a sliding plate).

If you're already using Vinten sticks and are having a problem correctly counterbalancing your rig on the Vision 3, your best solution is to go for a new Vision 3 or 5 AS head.

See my review of same here:

Vinten Vision 3 AS Tripod (1 of 4) DV Info Net (http://www.dvinfo.net/article/production/camsupport/vinten-vision-3-as-tripod-1-of-4.html)

I can't categorically say which one due to not knowing the COG of your rig, so I'd suggest you whiz an e - mail to Peter Harman: Peter.Harman@VitecGroup.com and give him your details, he should be able to pinpoint the correct one for you.

You'll still get a decent handfull of readies for your V 3, so it won't sting too bad.


CS

Thanks for all your replies! I didn't realize that there were so many flavours of that particular model.

I have now written them and asked for more info, but here's a link to the actual combo:

Used Sachtler 7+7 Tripod - Proactive (http://www.proav.co.uk/Used-Broadcast-Equipment/Tripods-Supports/up20104_sc788.aspx#productInformation)

Does that give any clues to any of you regarding weight/size_of_bowl???

peter

Yes, it's a Panorama 7+7. Weighs about 3kg, 100mm bowl. 7 pan and tilt settings, counterbalance on or off, balances about 10kg. No sliding plate. Sachtler single stage carbon fibre legs, look like standard duty rather than heavy duty.
Steve

Steve:

Thanks for the info. Actually I got a mail from Proav, where they said that they honestly believed I would be dis-satisfied with this solution, compared with the Vinten 3 I have now.

Now, I don't really understand why they think that ...

Anyway, they (like Chris - thanks, Chris) pointed me in the direction of a Vinten 3AS head.

What I can't get into MY head (pun intended) is that the 3AS has a payload of 10 kg -same as the 3 - so why would a 3AS hold a camera with the same COG better in the outer positions than a plain 3 would?

Don't get it :-)

Peter

I've never liked Vintens, and the 3 seems like a fairly low echelon head to me, in the Manfrotto league.
The Panorama 7+7 was made when Sachtler made really good heads, they've gone right downhill in my estimation now! The 7+7 was a big favourite with a lot of wildlife camermen, due to its light weight and stability. Hugh Miles for example used one and I gather still does, with an Arriflex and 600mm lens, as did many of the other wildlife legends when filming for the likes of Life On Earth.
I put a Canon 150-600 on a Varicam on the Panorama that I had briefly and it held it well, though as with all 100mm bowl heads it still had a bit of wobble to it, this is why I don't use them any more, it seems with HD you have to be that bit more critical with wobble as it shows up more with the "dead" image of a video camera and being viewed on today's larger screens. The trend in wildlife at least is for 150mm bowl heads, between 6.5kg (Ronford 2004) and 10kg (Ronford Atlas 30 and O'Connor 2060 that I have).
For ENG work though I'd have thought the 7+7 would be fine though.
Steve

Can't write more than this untill CH fixes whatever ails the site (it keeps logging me off every 3 minutes).

Using an HD camcorder on a head with zero or incorrect counterbalance is akin to mud wrestling with Captain Kangaroo and is only for the serious masochist.

The only head which gives you, Peter, a hope of achieving this is the Vision 5 AS.

All of the heads you mention Steve fall into the "serious masochist" category for medium size HD camcorders.


CS

Hmmmm... Tom Guilmette, Philip Bloom and a bloke called Soucy (never 'eard of 'im) certainly wouldn't refer to the Vinten Vision 3 AS as a Manfrotto-level tripod! The reviews are all pretty positive.

Don't get mixed up with the Vinten Protouch budget range!

Using an HD camcorder on a head with zero or incorrect counterbalance is akin to mud wrestling with Captain Kangaroo and is only for the serious masochist.

The only head which gives you, Peter, a hope of achieving this is the Vision 5 AS.

All of the heads you mention Steve fall into the "serious masochist" category for medium size HD camcorders.


CS

Of the 3 heads I mention 2 of them have continuous (ie 0-100%) counterbalance, which I assume gets them out of your "serious masochist" category.
I am with you on the good counterbalance side of things, but it's not quite as bad as you say though. You can manage OK with fixed step counterbalances like the Sachtlers, even with long lens set-ups, and people did for years and still do. A counterbalance is never 100% perfect anyway, and the main thing it needs to do is support the weight of the camera on tilts so that you don't suddenly need lots of pressure to hold it.
For many years one of the standard wildlife heads was the Ronford F4 and that doesn't have a counterbalance at all!

Mike, we'll have to agree to disagree on the quality of Vinten heads, I've never found them any good compared to "serious" heads. Take a look at the "making of" programmes for Planet Earth, the new Life series etc. and you won't find a single Vinten in sight. None. At all. It's because we don't rate them. I don't know a single wildlife cameraman (the only type I know) that uses Vinten.
There is a reason why O'Connors and Ronfords cost so much, because they're good. There's a reason why a lot of people buy Vintens, because they're cheap - and a very justifiable reason it is too.

Steve

Mike, we'll have to agree to disagree on the quality of Vinten heads, I've never found them any good compared to "serious" heads. Take a look at the "making of" programmes for Planet Earth, the new Life series etc. and you won't find a single Vinten in sight. None. At all. It's because we don't rate them. I don't know a single wildlife cameraman (the only type I know) that uses Vinten.
There is a reason why O'Connors and Ronfords cost so much, because they're good. There's a reason why a lot of people buy Vintens, because they're cheap - and a very justifiable reason it is too.

Hopefully you a refereeing to the old smaller Vision series and maybe the AS series....?

The Vision 100 and up are better than the Sachtler counterpart, or at least that my opinion after using Vision 100 at work in a small studio setup and rented for my Hpx500. Against Video18 from sacthler the Vision 100 is just more refined. I've not been able to test the new AS range though...waiting for the winter so that i can get a feeling for what heads can endure shooting constantly in a least -20C.

With Ronford and O'connors larger heads you are into the 9KG + for the head alone, to heavy for ENG if you shoot on your own. Although I would love to have the budget for a large o'con head.

Another maker worth considering are Panther and their X15 model.

I looked at the Panther X15 and it was smooth but the counterbalance was really bouncy, really not good.
I tried a Vision 100 brifely a few years back, and wasn't very impressed, but it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be.
For ENG there is always the O'Connor 1030. I've got an old one, but the new HD ones are the same. Nice and smooth, well made, and continuous counterbalance. Good point is that you can swap bowls, meaning for me that I don't need 100mm legs in addition to my 150mm sets that go with the 2060.
Steve

Guys, you are talking about heads meant for serious film camera use and heavy lenses.

Ronford Atlas 30? Counterbalance 66 lbs @ 10" COG?

Peter's setup is a HD camcorder system weighing in @ 8.8 kg with a COG no higher than a knats knee.

Get real.


CS

Just answering you point "All of the heads you mention Steve fall into the "serious masochist" category for medium size HD camcorders", and the debate did broaden to how good Vintens were vs the rest too. No harm in a good, broad discussion, eh!

Steve

I'm a sucker for good discussions, so DO keep it up.

To get real - Chris :-) - By accident I stumbled upon a used Vinten Vision 100 with carbon fibre legs and bought it (look here: Image Zoom (http://www.digibroadcast.com/prods/zoom.php?id=7462))

Priced at GBP 1500 I couldn't resist!

Now hopefully I won't develop a hernia dragging the beast around - but maybe I can get one of those "Invalid" signs for the car and then just drive up to the action - hell, what do I need a tripod for, then :-)

Anyway - thanks for all your great inputs - and DO let the discussion flow about the pros and cons - we are a bunch that learns all the time from you guys....

about that hernia, that's one solid unit.

Don't know if you're going to get the counterbalance to kick in tho', from this graph on the Vinten site it's gonna be a close squeak.

http://www.vinten.com/system/files/file/downloads/3466_TD_EN.pdf

Think you might need to add some ballast "up top" to increase the COG and weight, dependent on you rig configuration.

Enjoy!


CS

I recently found out i have a panorama 7 + 7 head that i was told is now obsolete, I was just curious if anyone knew the best way to go about selling it or maybe what i should even ask for it?? Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks

If the tripod is still working smoothly it isn't obsolete, cameras become obsolete, usually tripods don't. The only problem could be if the spring counterbalance is too strong for your camera.

I've still got a Ronford F4, which is great with the small cameras - people use them to shoot feature films using HDV cameras. Even using carbon fibre legs it's not the lightest, but it's very quick to set up - the legs slide straight to the floor.

I've never liked Vintens, and the 3 seems like a fairly low echelon head to me, in the Manfrotto league.
The Panorama 7+7 was made when Sachtler made really good heads, they've gone right downhill in my estimation now! The 7+7 was a big favourite with a lot of wildlife camermen, due to its light weight and stability. Hugh Miles for example used one and I gather still does, with an Arriflex and 600mm lens, as did many of the other wildlife legends when filming for the likes of Life On Earth.
I put a Canon 150-600 on a Varicam on the Panorama that I had briefly and it held it well, though as with all 100mm bowl heads it still had a bit of wobble to it, this is why I don't use them any more, it seems with HD you have to be that bit more critical with wobble as it shows up more with the "dead" image of a video camera and being viewed on today's larger screens. The trend in wildlife at least is for 150mm bowl heads, between 6.5kg (Ronford 2004) and 10kg (Ronford Atlas 30 and O'Connor 2060 that I have).
For ENG work though I'd have thought the 7+7 would be fine though.
Steve

Steve,
Can you please elaborate on your comment about 100mm bowl heads?

The Oconnor 1030 HD is 100mm bowl. Does that mean it will also wobble on a 100mm bowl tripod?

Cheers,
Sabyasachi

I can't speak for Steve, or for how much more stable 150mm bowls are than 100mm bowls.

But I think for the vast majority of users, a 100mm bowl is going to be more than sturdy enough. If it wasn't, you wouldn't see 100mm as the standard for ENG / EFP cameras. If you're using something like a HVX or EX1, a 75mm bowl is probably going to be enough for you.

If more people needed 150mm bowls, there would be more 150mm heads / tripods out there.

I think the big thing is the type of footage your shooting. If you're using really long telephoto lenses to get a ECU of a bird hatching out of its egg from 300yds away, then you want something REALLY steady. To get a shot that steady, you need a larger tripod.

Now if you're getting a CU of a person talking at a podium 30yds away, then you don't need something massive & 100mm or 75mm tripod will probably be all that you need.

Pretty much spot on Zach. I've just got around to writing up some tripod reviews/notes at my website www.stevephillipps.com, and I state there that most of my very picky comments apply just to long lens wildlife type situations, as you say for most people a 100mm bowl will be more than adequate.

Sabyasachi, the O'Connor 1030 can be used with a 100mm or 150mm bowl (I use the 150mm on mine), but it's still a smallish head and it does have the usual slight bounciness of all heads of that size. It's obviously something to do with the overall bulk, but you just get a lot more stability with the bigger heads (ie anything over about 6kg). Favourites in wildlife circles include the Ronford Baker 2004, Sachtler Video 25, and these days there is a bit of a trend towards the even larger O'Connor 2060 and Ronford Atlas 30.
Steve

Zach and Steve,
Thanks for your responses. Its very helpful.

At the moment I am filming wildlife with a DSLR Canon 1D Mark IV + Canon EF 400mm f2.8 L IS USM lens. In the future I will be diving deeper into filming with heavier cameras. Hence, am carefully evaluating the fluid heads.

The Oconnor heads have counterbalance from 0 upwards. So I have the flexibility to use a DSLR + wide angle combo as well as with heavier lenses. Though the Oconnor 1030 is heavier and expensive than other fluid heads, I have decided to buy it. I have to figure out how to get it from US, as buying here in India would be very costly. The Oconnor 2065 is more than 10kgs with 150mm bowl. Apart from the price, lugging a much heavier tripod would be another challenge. The combination (2065 + a heavy duty aluminium tripod) will weigh more than 20kgs and will all but rule out domestic flights for me (at least at this stage of my film making level). So the Oconnor 2065 would be a bit more than I can digest. :D Also, I am not sure how you guys lug around such heavy equipment trekking within the forest.

Which tripod legs you prefer?

Cheers,
Sabyasachi

Another thing to consider is that you can make many tripods heavier in the field. Some have a hook at the spreader, or you could throw some sand bags over the feet.

If you're hiking around, you could get some empty sand bags & just fill it with items you find around you. (Rocks, dirt, etc).

But even with the best tripod a lot of getting a steady shot is knowing how to use the tool. Knowing how to touch, when to let go, how to move & how to breathe... these are things that can really only be learned by doing & are the difference between a steady shot & a shaky one.

Though while a 400mm is a nice zoom lens on a 1D, it isn't a crazy insane telephoto. Most higher end 2/3" lenses will get the same FOV on the long end as your lens. You camera is lighter than a 2/3" shoulder mount camera which helps a little & hurts a little (heavier items take more energy to move, but lighter cameras shake less on the same tripod), so be mindful, but don't be too worried about it.

I would even suggest looking into some Gitzo legs (which is a different direction that what you're looking at, but still another option). They're very versatile & their carbon fiber legs are very light. The legs move independent of each other, so you can arrange them at different angles to set up on nearly any surface.

Agree with all that again Zach, good advice. I used to use Gitzo legs and I agree they're excellent.
Sabyasachi, I currently use most carbon fibre legs; Sachtler 150ML which are single stage HD carbon. I also use an old Oskar Heiler aluminium short set which are amazing, and sometimes Sachtler HD carbon 2 stage legs but they're not as stable as the single stage.
Steve

Steve,
I have checked the Sachtler tripods. The Sachtler DA-150M medium aluminium 1 stage legs support 110 lbs. Sachtler DA-150M Medium Aluminum Tripod Legs 6157 - B&H Photo (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/78767-REG/Sachtler_6157_DA_150M_Medium_Aluminum_Tripod.html#specifications)
I was looking for a tripod that has a minimum height and hence the choice. Any idea how good this one would be with the 1030HD 150mm bowl?

Zach thanks for your comments. I currently use a Gitzo GT 3530 plus wimberly V2 head which I was using for stills. Am not too happy using it for filming. 400mm f2.8 L IS US Plus 2xII TC with multiplier factor of 1.3 of the 1D Mark IV camera gives a focal length of 1040 mm. I agree that technique contributes to the stability of the image/film. I will move to a Canon interchangeable lens video cam whenever it is launched. So weight wise, it wont be much bigger in the near future.

Cheers,
Sabyasachi

Which bowl size you use tends to be a trade off of weight, stability and other factors. For example you rarely see 100mm bowls on dramas, but they're pretty much the standard on 2/3 ENG.

I've got an old Ronford F4 with Sachtler 150mm carbon fibre which I use with the 1/3" cameras and it's great because you can set up so quickly compared to 75mm tripods. I mightn't be so keen if I've got to hike miles with it all the time, although I've done so - it's a matter of balance.

For the larger cameras I've got a Sachtler Horizon (film version of the Video 25, which covers a good range of cameras.

Any idea how good this one would be with the 1030HD 150mm bowl?


It'd be great, but they don't go down that low. That's what 2 stage legs are for. I've got a Sachtler HD carbon set that I've had cut down so they go real low but still up to head height.
Steve

Steve, Zach, Brian,
Thanks for the comments.
Now I have to figure out how to procure the 1030 HD with 150mm bowl as B&H site only has a 1030HD with 100mm bowl. There is no direct sale from the Oconnor site.

Sabyasachi

You can order the bowl from B&H and any other dealer though OConnor 08278 150mm Ball Base Adapter 08414 B&H Photo Video

Steve

Steve nice to see you back up and running.