If I understand the settings, the minimum time lapse I can set is 1 frame every second. I want more frames. :) I would like to be able to set 1 frame every half or quarter second (or two or four frames per second, if you prefer to figure it that way).

Yesterday I recorded a few hours of our setup for a 20 camera show this weekend, including an amazing 30 second section where about 50 people lift up and move a 100 foot circular stage 25 feet, but it plays faster than I like. I was recording at what I think is the minimum, which is 1 frame per second.

So here's a request for the time lapse function to allow more than 1 frame a second.

Billy

What you want is Undercranking.
Rafael

What you want is Undercranking.
Rafael

Hi Rafael-
Precisely, that's on the development schedule for Nov. You can dial in frame rates from 1 to 30 in 1080p30 and 1 to 60 in 720p60, etc.

Best-

I'm not sure at what frame rate overcranking and undercranking become the appropriate word, I just guessed that one was used at faster than 24 (30) fps and one was used at slower.

Thanks Mike, I'm looking forward to being able to capture more frames per second than 1 (but nowhere near 24/30 per second).

Billy

Hi Billy, capturing anything less than 24fps would be considered undercranking.

Anytime I need something between 2-23fps, I capture at 24fps and in post, I remove however many frames I need to in order to get the desired frame rate. If I use every other frame from the captured sequence, the effective frame rate is 12fps and so on. I can use every 3rd frame, 4th frame, etc.

I think that Over/Under is relative to your final output.
If you are working in 30fps, shooting more than that will be "over", and less will be Under.
Same for 24 or 25.
With the Undercranking and the time-lapse we have covered all the under-speed needs.
The Over-speed are already available by recording p60 or p50.
rafael

Hi Billy, capturing anything less than 24fps would be considered undercranking.

Anytime I need something between 2-23fps, I capture at 24fps and in post, I remove however many frames I need to in order to get the desired frame rate. If I use every other frame from the captured sequence, the effective frame rate is 12fps and so on. I can use every 3rd frame, 4th frame, etc.

As I understand is this is not "true" undercranking?

The primary difference, between removing frames and "picking" frames out of an HD-SDI stream to actually recording say 6fps native is exposure time. I don't think you can get those wild motion blurs you can get with long exposure times with "true" undercranking. My logic is that for that 6fps in say 24P stream, the data is actually spread over 4 frames and those 4 frames would need to be "blended" together in one frame, if you set your shutter to 1/6th of a second?

I think Phillip Bloom has an example in Exposure Room. I'm not 100% on this as I'm not really sure how video cameras undercrank

Of course still another stunning feature for the nanoflash as the "motion blur" example is a very specific one.

Here's a good explanation of over / under crank from Panasonic:

https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/sales_o/08tech/01varicam/varicam02.html

Best-

Dear John,

When using the Flash XDR and nanoFlash, one can obviously choose a longer exposure time for each frame, or not, for their desired effect.

But, as you point out, we can not blend multiple frames togeter, thus creating an even longer exposure time.

Blending frames is beyond the scope of what we intend to accomplish at this time.

Hey Dan:
A long time ago we had a conversation where I had asked for a possible time lapse capability whereby I could use my XL H1 on an equatorial mount and have some sort of electronic equivalent of a film time lapse-time exposure each frame effect. Now in that conversation I remember you theorized the Flash XDR could possibly *Clock* the CCD's via the HD-SDI output by collecting a series of scans which could be blended together to somehow totalize the time exposure effect. Do you think this is still a possibility ?

Here's a good explanation of over / under crank from Panasonic:

https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/sales_o/08tech/01varicam/varicam02.html

Best-

Mike,
That is a very good explanation for the way that Panasonic Varicam handles over/undercrank recording to tape. The down side of that is that you can not immediately playback "slowmo" footage from the camera, you have to wait to get back to the edit suite.

Sony Cinealta cameras handle this in a different way. Sony uses a memory buffer system that collects the correct variable frame rate and then records that to disc/card. With this system you can immediately play back the material as it was intended, at a slow or fast rate from the camera.

Internal storage like the Weisscam.

Hey Dan:
A long time ago we had a conversation where I had asked for a possible time lapse capability whereby I could use my XL H1 on an equatorial mount and have some sort of electronic equivalent of a film time lapse-time exposure each frame effect. Now in that conversation I remember you theorized the Flash XDR could possibly *Clock* the CCD's via the HD-SDI output by collecting a series of scans which could be blended together to somehow totalize the time exposure effect. Do you think this is still a possibility ?

Dear Mark,

I remember the conversation well.

Our plate if pretty full right now.

I do think this would be a very nice feature in an Editor.

The advantage would be that if a plane or satellite went overhead, one could edit out those frames before the accumulation would occur.

Also, I would expect that the professional CCD's for telescopes are better optimized for astronomy, than one optimized for video.

Hey Dan:
A long time ago we had a conversation where I had asked for a possible time lapse capability whereby I could use my XL H1 on an equatorial mount and have some sort of electronic equivalent of a film time lapse-time exposure each frame effect. Now in that conversation I remember you theorized the Flash XDR could possibly *Clock* the CCD's via the HD-SDI output by collecting a series of scans which could be blended together to somehow totalize the time exposure effect. Do you think this is still a possibility ?

if you want to accumulate light over a period longer than the exposure time for each frame, you can effectively do this in post. i use shake but you can use motion or after effects too. you'll get a nice blurring effect if there is motion in the scene, but mostly you'll get low light magic since you are accumulating light from multiple frames into a single frame.

Dear Mark,

I remember the conversation well.

Our plate if pretty full right now.

I do think this would be a very nice feature in an Editor.

The advantage would be that if a plane or satellite went overhead, one could edit out those frames before the accumulation would occur.

Also, I would expect that the professional CCD's for telescopes are better optimized for astronomy, than one optimized for video....Hey Dan & Aaron: I have some tech questions about this rather increadibly intriquing possibility.

1: If I set my shutter speed to its lowest setting in my XL H1 will this effectively increase the exposure time of the single frames my XDR records in Time Lapse Mode ?

2. Aaron, can you elaborate further about this light accumulation effect possible in After Effrects or in an NLE editor ?

3. Can I do this using Avid Media Composer or Final Cut Pro ?

A couple questions about the future over/undercranking features

1. Will "undercranking" be available for cameras that don't specifically offer variable frame rates? For example, if the camera is outputting 1080p24 over HD-SDI, would you be able to set the nano to record in factors of 24 frames per second as 220Mb/s I-frame, such as 12/8/6/4/3/2 fps? I guess this would be like the current timelapse feature, but at faster capture rates than are currently enabled.

2. For the consumer Panasonic cams that offer overcranking like the HPX170, is the HD-SDI/HDMI output 720p60 with duplicated frames like the varicams, and then the nano would just discard the duplicate frames when recording?

3. Is this the same way the EX1 and EX3 output under/overcranked 720p footage over HD-SDI? How about in 1080p?

Hi Mark. I can't remember if FCP can do an "Add" operation of two images, but it might be able to. It would be as simple laying the two images on separate tracks in FCP and using the Add mode for the layers of video. You'd need offset the tracks by 1 frame. If you want to accumulate 3 frames, you need 3 layers, each offset by a frame and the Add mode for all layers.

I never do it FCP so I've never tried. Motion, Shake or AE is much better suited to do this type of stuff.

There's probably a dozen ways to accomplish the accumulation and blur I talk about, but at the core of this idea is the "Add" operation. This literally adds the pixels of one image to another.

Of the dozens of ways to do this, here's a quick and dirty workflow, I'd take all the ODD frames from an XDR capture and put them into new Quicktime file:

shake 01214009.MOV -fo ODD.mov -t 1-1000x2

This command takes the XDR quicktime, grabs frames every other frame of frames 1-1000, and writes them to a new Quicktime file "ODD.mov"

Then I grab the even frames:

shake 01214009.MOV -fo EVEN.mov -t 2-1000x2

Now I have two files of 500 frames each. If I add them to each other, it is a literal ADD of every pixel in the image. There will be motion blur because of the accumulation. Highlights will be blown as well. Dark areas will be gained up because of the Add. But with shake, I combine them like this:

shake ODD.mov -iadd EVEN.mov -fo BLUR.mov -t 1-500

My new file blur.mov will show the accumulation from the Add operation. Obviously if you don't want to change the frame rate, don't use every other frame, use every frame just offset the starting frame by one. If you want to accumulate more frames, do it again and increment your starting frame.

All this from the command line without ever even opening the app. Again, just one of many ways you can do this. If the Add operation doesn't suit what you're trying to do, use a different operation, like Min, Max or some other creative way to combine the frames.

It would be much easier to capture timelapse with one of the new DSLR cameras and an intervalometer. This offers much more control of exposure especially for night shots. Then you can put all the frames together in Quicktime Pro.

Sony's Cinealta line have a function called slow speed shutter that will allow longer exposures but motion is blurred in the frame. Works on some types of shots and not so much on others.

You're probably right Bob, but I don't have a DSLR.

A couple questions about the future over/undercranking features

1. Will "undercranking" be available for cameras that don't specifically offer variable frame rates? For example, if the camera is outputting 1080p24 over HD-SDI, would you be able to set the nano to record in factors of 24 frames per second as 220Mb/s I-frame, such as 12/8/6/4/3/2 fps? I guess this would be like the current timelapse feature, but at faster capture rates than are currently enabled.

Yes, we expect that you will be able to choose 1 to 23 frames for undercranking in the camera is outputing 1080p24. And 25 to 30 if overcranking.

For 720p mode, you have a range of 1 to 60 frames per second.

2. For the consumer Panasonic cams that offer overcranking like the HPX170, is the HD-SDI/HDMI output 720p60 with duplicated frames like the varicams, and then the nano would just discard the duplicate frames when recording?

To the best of my knowledge, most cameras (except some high-end cameras), while under or over-cranking, output all of the frames via the HD-SDI/HDMI output.

One exception may be the PDW-F800 camera. (But it is sometimes difficult to read and understand all of the camera manuals.)

3. Is this the same way the EX1 and EX3 output under/overcranked 720p footage over HD-SDI? How about in 1080p?

I am not certain, at this moment, about the EX1/EX3. I just attempted to find this in the manuals but could not find a definitive statement about the way the HD-SDI output works while in Slow & Quick Motion.

A quick test, with an HD-SDI monitor will show how it works.

Hi Mark. I can't remember if FCP can do an "Add" operation of two images, but it might be able to. It would be as simple laying the two images on separate tracks in FCP and using the Add mode for the layers of video. You'd need offset the tracks by 1 frame. If you want to accumulate 3 frames, you need 3 layers, each offset by a frame and the Add mode for all layers.

I never do it FCP so I've never tried. Motion, Shake or AE is much better suited to do this type of stuff.

There's probably a dozen ways to accomplish the accumulation and blur I talk about, but at the core of this idea is the "Add" operation. This literally adds the pixels of one image to another.

Of the dozens of ways to do this, here's a quick and dirty workflow, I'd take all the ODD frames from an XDR capture and put them into new Quicktime file:

shake 01214009.MOV -fo ODD.mov -t 1-1000x2

This command takes the XDR quicktime, grabs frames every other frame of frames 1-1000, and writes them to a new Quicktime file "ODD.mov"

Then I grab the even frames:

shake 01214009.MOV -fo EVEN.mov -t 2-1000x2

Now I have two files of 500 frames each. If I add them to each other, it is a literal ADD of every pixel in the image. There will be motion blur because of the accumulation. Highlights will be blown as well. Dark areas will be gained up because of the Add. But with shake, I combine them like this:

shake ODD.mov -iadd EVEN.mov -fo BLUR.mov -t 1-500

My new file blur.mov will show the accumulation from the Add operation. Obviously if you don't want to change the frame rate, don't use every other frame, use every frame just offset the starting frame by one. If you want to accumulate more frames, do it again and increment your starting frame.

All this from the command line without ever even opening the app. Again, just one of many ways you can do this. If the Add operation doesn't suit what you're trying to do, use a different operation, like Min, Max or some other creative way to combine the frames.....Hi Aaron:
Thank you for that lengthy explanation. My apologies here but I have absolutely Zero understanding of what you wrote. I am currently in One to One instruction for Motion and Final Cut Pro. I am a very good Avid editor, and I do have Adobe After Effects CS4, but I'm looking for instruction on that too. I am on my first MAC as well. I'm a heavily experienced PC and Avid man, but that's not enough these days.

It's not hard to understand Mark. Take an image sequence, add it to itself. This is essentially the accumulation. If the copy of itself is offset by one or more frames, the accumulation will also show blurred objects that are moving in the frame.

Hi Aaron:
You wrote: "It's not hard to understand Mark. Take an image sequence, add it to itself. This is essentially the accumulation. If the copy of itself is offset by one or more frames, the accumulation will also show blurred objects that are moving in the frame."

.......Yup. OK. What I find the hardest thing to do sometimes is to stop thinking like an editor and to start thinking like an animator or a graphic artist.