Hi,

Am pretty new to all this so excuse me if I ask silly questions but am about to step on my learning curve..

anyway, next year I have planned 3 expeditions, these involve..

Cycling around the world:
Walking the length of New Zealand:
Climbing Mt McKinley

The adventure of a lifetime (http://www.leehughes.co.uk)


Am looking to document this somehow and recently came across the canon 7D for which am very interested in as I can save space and money..

How do you think the 7D would hold up for this sort of stuff? Am looking to mix in time lapse into it as well..

Trying to move away from the normal documentaries really.

Thanks in advance

Cycling...walking...climbing. To me those three words would point more to something like one of the Canon single chip Vixia cameras. You can put the camera, batteries, enough SD cards to last in a bag and it will all weigh less than a second lens for the 7D. Or maybe that small 3 chip JVC. Neither will give you the same quality but would be less hassle.

On the on the other hand, if you want to shoot stills too, then an HDSLR might make sense. Just be aware that there's more to the camera than the camera...extra lenses--probably a wide angle zoom, a normal zoom and a telephoto zoom...decent tripod...audio gear, filers, etc.

Hi,

Thanks for your reply..

Yeah I already have the 10-22mm lens and saving up for the 50mm 1.2 (providing I go ahead for the 7D)

I am looking to take stills, I have a canon 400d at the mo but it's need of a upgrade..

So do you think the 7D will be able to do this job?

Thanks

I would think that if you're already taking a stills camera anyway you might as well make it a 7D. Great video and great stills in the same package, why not? :)

As I understand it, the 7D has some major limitations for documentary footage. I just use it for tightly controlled narrative stuff, so excuse me if I miss sometehing.

Anyhow, the Canon 7D has a time limit of 12 minutes during a single take, at which time you'll have to stop and restart. If you're trying to get a continuous 2 or 3 hours of biking, this is really gonna put a hindrance on things. You won't be able to really enjoy the trip, you'll constantly be worrying about your camera, having to fiddle with it and make its presence very known. On the other hand, if you just occasionally want to pull the camera out and grab some quick footage, it wouldn't be as big of a problem (but trust me, that time limit is still going to get annoying).
Furthermore, you're constantly going to have to be changing lenses depending on what you want to shoot. That means more stuff you'll have to carry, more stuff that could break, yet another reason to have a group halt and make everyone sit around while you fiddle with the camera, and more money you'll have to spend.
Even after changing lenses, you're still going to have focus issues. If you move around a lot, and you're going to be moving nearly all of the time it seems, things are going to go out of focus a ton. That's going to wreck a lot of your footage, and cause yet ANOTHER reason where you have to say "Woah woah hang on hold it, you totally just went out of focus. Hold still for a second."

If you're going on the trip for the sake of the trip and just kind of want to document some stuff for the hell of it, you're going to get almost no good footage from the 7D, and you'll probably find it to be a huge nuisance. If everyone understands that the trip is specifically for the documentary, though, it might be a little easier to get people to hold still and pose and stay in focus and wait around while you switch lenses and whatnot.
But either way there are far better choices out there.

As someone mentioned, if you're going to be taking stills anyway, and price isn't an issue, might as well go with the 7D and take footage with it on the fly, taking advantage of its portability, and then carry a second camera better suited for this kind of thing that you can pull out when you really want some good footage.
But, since price probably is an issue, I'd recommend you look for a more traditional camera for the sort of thing you want to do.


Good luck!

To me, the 7D would work out perfectly if I were doing a documentary like this. Why?

1. 7D, flash and lenses fit into a camera backpack along with Macbook Pro and other accessories (I can carry my entire production kit around in a Tamrac backpack—except for my tripod).

2. Very light and can carry around on a strap when not in use.

3. Lens change is very easy.

4. Presets can be setup to go back and forth from picture profiles when going from still into video and back and forth.

5. Media is cheap and can be downloaded via USB to the laptop for viewing/editing anytime.

6. Fast lenses can get much more picture in low light than other video cameras (Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 is only $399—just ordered one the other day).

7. Take amazing stills with the same camera you are shooting video. Normally would have to pack a video camera and a photo cam.

The bad?
1. If you are shooting from a bike, things might get wobbly (same with EX1 and 3).
2. Can't hold with one hand mounted on a shoulder (without rigging at least).
3. Need an external mic and input for proper audio (Just picked up a Zoon H4n to go with my Sennheiser ME66/K6 shotgun mic).

Basically, as you can probably tell from our responses, it depends on how much work you're willing to do. More work = better footage, less work = worse footage. The 7D, while a pain, will produce undeniably superior footage than almost any other camera you could take. You'll just have to deal with things like switching lenses and audio and the like. If you don't want to deal with that, then don't use the 7D :)

EDIT: If you just want to document your trip, don't bother with the 7D. Take an HV40 or the new JVC or a similar cam. If you want to make something more... "artistic" and are willing to do the extra work required, then take the 7D.

Lee,

Walking, cycling, climbing...

I have the 7D and am learning to love it, but on what you describe I don't think I'd try it.

The 7D is a heavy camera. You're probably young and fit (I'm 71 and not really fit) but something like the 7D and the right wide angle lenses and others would make for a pretty heavy kit that would get heavier and heavier as the day wore on.

Bill Pryor's ideas bear some thinking on. One of the Canon Vixia camcorders with a .45X wide angle converter, and a compact still camera would allow you to get by with either a very lightweight tripod or monopod, and with the Canon DM-100 mic (comes with furry windmuff) would get you excellent video and audio in a very manageable easy to carry package.

I'd go with the HF S100 or HF200, both run on Class (6) SDHC cards and those same cards can be used in lots of compact still digital cameras (The CF cards the 7D requires for video and burst mode stills are NOT inexpensive, UDMA enabled media is strongly recommended).

Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth.

wow a mixture of opinions..

Many thanks for all your input and advice..

I really need to get a hold of a 7D and play with it..

Is the 12 min footage standard or depending on memory card??

Am thinking of taking a GoPro Hero HD for longer on the road footage...

Still have a lot of research to do though :)

Thanks for your replies :)

If you can pay me enough to quit my day job, I'll walk across NZ with you.

I've shot a documentary in New Zealand, though I didn't have my 7D at the time.

The 7D is an awesome camera, but I don't think it's the right choice for you on the projects as you've described them. At least not as a primary camera. It's just too "fiddly" for most documentary work. Between having to manually focus, make sure that you run seperate sound, getting aperture/shutterspeed/ISO right for the exposure, and you practically require a loupe/viewfinder for anything not tripod mounted.

On the other hand..., the 7D rocks in environments where you can control the environment; this usually means interviews.

For landscapes, shallow depth of field isn't nearly as important (or desirable) so you're probably better off with a more traditional 1/3" cam with a good autofocus and XLR inputs so that you don't have to worry about sync-in-post. XH-A1s are going cheap lately since alot of people who bought them are now moving to VDSLRs.

When you do the New Zealand project, I'll hook you up with my field producer, Helen Breeze, based in Wellington.

I think that the 5D - with an ultrawide - is a better camera than the 7D for an "in the middle of it" documentary. When you go ultrawide, focus and rolling shutter aren't as much of an issue. Also, Magic Lantern offers zebras, which help you no nail the exposure NOW.

Canon HV 40 or a used HV30.
The 7d will be to hard to use spontaneously.
I have a Canon H1, A1, HV30, and now, a 7D. I love the 7D, but I wouldn;t want to depend on it for doc shooting on a trip like that.
Good luck
bRUCE yAROCK

So far no one commented on the ONE thing the 7D does better than ANY videocamera... time lapse. Full sensor, still frame, no aliasing (and of course rolling shutter isnt an issue) and image quality beyond the definition you can display in a video.

Would I take it for THAT alone? No... and in fact support the advice you are getting on this camera's (7D's) suitabilility.

But for those reading the thread with similar questions, if time lapse is really important to you the DSLR's are the only way to fly.

Chris

Lee, if you're going to shoot stills too, then the 7D does make some sense, although I might throw in one of the little Vixia cameras for backup in case the idea didn't work out.

As far as the 12 minute limit, that has to do with the 4 gig file size and isn't a function of the card. If you have a 32 gig card, then you can record about 100 minutes, but no take can be longer than 4 gigs, or about 12 minutes. If you were shooting a big long interview, you'd have to stop, then start up again. That can happen fast--the camera will stop if you hit the 4 gig limit, then you press go and it starts right up again. In most cases when I do interviews, there's plenty of opportunity to stop and start without having to stop a person in the middle of a thought. It's rare that a person would talk non-stop for 12 minutes during an interview.

I'm still more partial to a smaller regular video camera for a trip like this. But if you have a 40D and want to upgrade, as one of the above posts said, it might as well be a 7D so you can do video too. But considering where you're going, a second backup camera would be a very good idea, I think. And if the 7D got to be too much of a hassle, you're covered.

Magic Lantern's zebras and audio features and a shoulder rig make the 5D2 viable for shooting on the fly. Hopefully, it won't be long before the 7D code is cracked.

And, yeah, for timelapse, DSLRs (even without video) rock. One tip: if you need to stop down your Canon lens for timelapse, you need to untwist it or use some other method for keeping the camera from controlling the aperture. Otherwise, it goes back and forth between open and closed, and the closed positions will vary slightly from pic to pic.

Here's an example (not mine - it's from Timescapes) of great timelapse.
Timescapes Timelapse: Mountain Light on Vimeo

Jon, doesn't the aperture stay where you set it in Manual mode? I haven't used the remote timer, but the EOS software (connected to a laptop) runs the time lapse for me and my lens stays wide open the whole time.

David, there's no problem if you keep the aperture wide. The problem comes when you stop it down.

The camera opens the aperture between pictures so we can get a bright view, and so the autofocus can find the critical focus distance. The aperture is stopped down only when we snap the photo. That's why we have the DOF Preview button - to stop the lens down before snapping the photo.

Anyway, if you don't take measures to keep the lens from opening up between snaps, the lens will stop down slightly differently each time, and that can be seen as flicker.

Here's an example: I didn't untwist the lens on the shot with the white/light-blue plane and it flickers. The next day, I did the shot looking up at the propeller with the lens untwisted, and it's rock solid:
clouds on Vimeo

12 minutes should be more than enough for a single shot. I don't think this is an issue.
As for sound, a Rode Stereomic mounted on top of my 5D gives perfectly usable sound most of the time. The extra hassle of using separate recorder, Magic Lantern etc probably isn't worthwhile - but it's a matter of personal preference.
A separate recorder would give you the option to capture sound separately from the picture. That could enhance your documentary.
If you are going to use a DSLR like the 7D or the 5D you could shoot most of your doc with a zoom with image stabliser such as the Canon 24 - 105 mm (which will get cropped of course if you use the 7D) together with a fast prime lens like the 50mm F2 you mention.
You will need something like a Fader ND so that you can shoot in bright light using sensible shutter speeds and apertures .
With a little practice you should be able to eyeball your exposure from the LCD.
A Spiderbrace, or something similar, will give you better stability and is very light.
If you have time to set your shots up you should be able to nail your focus using the x10 magnification on the camera. But you run the risk of shooting out of focus if you don't have a laptop to review your footage with.
You could maybe get by without the extra bulk and expense of a Loupe and use a cheap sunshade for the LCD. But a Loupe may save you ruined shots and a lot of heartache.
When you add in a charger and even possibly a laptop you are going to be carrying a considerable amount of weight.
If you are doing multiday backpacking trips you could be carrying 50lbs without the camera gear.
Only you can decide where your priorities like but a dry run over a weekend might sort out any questions about the total weight you will carry.
In the final analysis it depends on what kind of film you are trying to make and how much inconvenience you are prepared to tolerate.

Hi,

Thanks for all your replies again they have been loads of help..

I guess the overall opinion is to take a 7D for stills and time lapse and take a more handy camera to film stuff ..

:)

thanks

Right..

I think am gonna stick with the 7D and use that for time lapse etc and maybe get a Canon HV30 for more mobile stuff..

That's my general idea anyway :)

Man i hope I get sponsorship!!

David, there's no problem if you keep the aperture wide. The problem comes when you stop it down.

I've never had this problem with any camera I've shot timelapse with. Is this an issue with the 7D or are you leaving something in auto mode? Remember, everything should be in manual mode.

Here's a sequence of time lapse shots where I screwed up 3 shots by leaving the autofocus switched on causing flicker, well we all make mistakes...


A Bit of Time Lapse

I've come to a similar conclusion. I have a travel based project that is not nearly as cool, but has similar needs. I like to travel as light as possible and was hoping that the 7d would be the one camera that I would need. After a month or so of working with it I'm still feeling iffy with being able to capture the footage I need. Unbelievable when I do manage get it right, however. For now I'm traveling with an S90 and HF-S100...

Hey Jon,

I see your flickering. Have you tried setting the auto focus to manual so the camera isn't trying to find a focus point frantically before each shutter release? I didn't end up with any flickering, but my auto focus was off.

My time lapse only varied depending on moving light sources in the frame (car lights) and the length of time between each shot (picture every 20 sec.). Philip Bloom's have been at 2 sec intervals.

I've never had this problem with any camera I've shot timelapse with. Is this an issue with the 7D or are you leaving something in auto mode? Remember, everything should be in manual mode.

Here's a sequence of time lapse shots where I screwed up 3 shots by leaving the autofocus switched on causing flicker, well we all make mistakes...


Hey Liam, great shots. What were your settings? This was the D300, right? I'm curious as to your exposure length and intervals set.

Thanks David and yes that one was shot with a D300.

Usually, I knock off a time lapse when I'm shooting something else on my main camera and in an ideal world I'd choose a shutter speed that matches, in reality though I never have enough ND on the stills cam so if I'm shooting in daylight it's usually at a higher shutter speed than the video or film camera.

All settings are manual, WB, exposure, focus, everything. If it's a sunrise I underexpose by 2 stops then let it roll. If it's a sunset I expose to the right with minimal clipping and let it roll.

Intervals vary greatly usually depending on how wide the shot is and how much movement there is in it already. If I've got fast moving cars close to the lens, I can get a shot quicker than if I have slow moving cloud. For a typical wide shot I'd shoot 125 frames for 5 seconds of screen time (I'M in PAL land) at either 15 or 20 second intervals. But if I'm shooting at night the same wide shot could be 1 second exposes to get light trails with an interval of 10 seconds or less.

If you look at the other time lapse I've posted on Vimeo (now embedded below) the shot at 54 seconds was 1 frame every five seconds, with a 1/2 second exposure and the one that follows is one every 30 seconds with a 20 second exposure to flatten the water. Some people say the interval should be the same as the exposure time on long exposure, but I've never found that to be true. I guess experimentation is the key.

Another Bit of Time Lapse

Wow, that makes me want to go and do time lapse tonight.

Good thing my 09 Ram 1500 has that AC power plug in the front seat cause I have to setup my laptop to control the 7D by the EOS software. I haven't wanted to spend the $160 on the remote yet.

if by next year you mean 12 months from now, the 7d will probably not be it, there will be a flood of new camera and possibilities in the next 6 months on the lower end of the spectrum, also meaning lighter.

It's a perfect camera for that, and despite the weight, should do fine. I lugged an XL1, a GL2 and 7 batteries up Kilimanjaro. The kit for this is nothing. Batteries are small, and you can get a wide range of telephotos, so you are only lugging two lenses.

You need a good mic though, have not tried out the rode one made for DSLR's, but don't go cheap, you can forgive a bad picture, but you can forgive audio. You can always shoot 720p to maximize space.

I have yet to see how my 7d performs, I've just started testing it for broadcast purposes, and figuring out shooting modes. So far I'd say it is not good enough, but have a lot to learn to get it working right. So I'll reserve final judgement.

Not bashing the 7D here, but if audio is a concern you could go with an Panasonic HMC40 which has built in mics. And can take stills, though not with a shallow depth of field. If you are micing then you can add an XLR adpater to it.

You can't beat the stills from a 7D though! (well maybe with a 5D).

My only issue for you is audio. If you don't mind the solutions to that mentioned in posts above I would go with the 7D. Otherwise you might want to bring a seperate video cam or something like what I mentioned.

thanks guys..

Am pretty set on the 7D now.. I have just got Philip booms 7D training dvd as well so don't wanna waste that.

Am not really interested in staying up to date with latest cameras as such am waiting till May because am in 3rd year uni and if I get the camera will probably fail..

I am planning to get a separate camera for more random moments and ease of use..

Thanks for the audio tips, I still need to do a lot of research..