View Full Version : DV Rack with HDV


Pages : [1] 2

Maheel Perera
June 25th, 2005, 10:10 PM
DV Rack has intoduced an addition to work with. It will defenetely eliminate the dreaded drop out issue.

I learned from there site that DSE is a user of DV Rack.

DSE, Have you tried the HDV addition for the DV Rack?.

Jerry Waters
June 26th, 2005, 10:54 AM
I'm not DSE but I just installed HDV Rack. It seems to work OK but I had a couple of questions I sent in to support. (I'm having a problem with a laptop to external firewire hard drive at the moment and haven't been using it as much as I'd like.)

Mark Mapes
June 27th, 2005, 12:11 PM
Maheel,
Don't know whether DSE is frequenting the boards these days as he's out on the Sony HDV Roadshow, which is relevant because his presentation includes none other than the HDV PowerPak upgrade to DV Rack (as well as ULTRA 2 with it's new HDV support). In the event that he doesn't drop by for a while, I'd be happy to field any questions you may have.

That goes for you, too, Jerry. Our call volume has been higher than usual with the recent release of the two products mentioned above as well as a couple of others. Still, you'll probably hear back from our customer support desk shortly, but feel free to post your questions here either way. I'll warn you up front though that I probably be of little help when it comes to troubleshooting your problems with the external hdd--that kind of hardware question is much more up the alley of our guys on the phones.

Jerry Waters
June 30th, 2005, 03:29 PM
My first problem with HDV Rack was not getting m2t files. Finally, I realized I had just been using the camera with down convert and set the camera for firewire HDV and the m2t showed up. The problem now seems to be my notebook. It is a Vaio but about 3 years old and an AMD chip and it is marginal. Everything seems very slow and I can't get the playback of the clip to work though it seems to be recording the clips. I think I'll install it on my edit computer and test it there - a 2.8 intel with 2 gig of ram and see how it works there. If the notebook has to be upgraded, I want to wait as long as possible with the new chips coming out.

Steven Fokkinga
July 1st, 2005, 09:09 AM
Hi Mark,

Is monitoring HDV with HDVrack realtime (so 25 fps Pal and 30 fps NTSC)? And if so, what kind of laptop specs would you need at minimum? Like Jerry, I'd like to buy a new laptop that can handle hdvrack realtime, but I am not sure if those are already within reach...

Mark Mapes
July 1st, 2005, 01:30 PM
You have control over the frame rate and resolution. In fact there are two settings related to resolution: MPEG Res (full or half) and Lines Displayed (Both, Odd, or Even.) Adjusting these three settings lets you "tune" display quality to get the most out of the system without maxing out the CPU, which results in artifacting and dropped frame. Note that these settings affect only what you see when monitoring; the full HDV stream is recorded regardless.

My understanding is that today's hardware is not capable of delivering full- framerate/full-res HDV performance. (We did not build a super-system to see what was possible.) With a 3.2 GHz processor, you should be able to get either full framerate or full-resolution--sounds like you'd opt for full framerate. Keep in mind that you'll scarcely be able to tell the difference between MPEG Resolution at Half vs. Full because the Field Monitor is much smaller than the HD frame. The difference will only become apparent when you use the zoom feature in the Field Monitor.

With something down in the 2 GHz neighborhood, you'll need to keep both framerate and resolution throttled back when recording. Our beta testers who ran with those settings reported that the results were entirely acceptable.

You specifically ask about monitoring HDV. If that's all you'll be doing (i.e., not recording), then adjusting these decompressor throttles is less critical because occasional artifacting and dropped frames aren't that big a deal--there's no recording to be compromised.

Jerry Waters
July 1st, 2005, 04:35 PM
Thanks for all that, HOWEVER, I would like to know my capabilities so I'll know how to use it. Are you saying I can't record full HDV AND that I can't see clips recorded? Or can I record full HDV and set the playback of clips at a lesser resolution and/or framerate? If I could do the last, wonderful. If I can't trust the HDV that I'm capturing to hard drive, then I would only use the monitor feature and record avi or quicktime so I could play clips back for the talent, etc. My main interest is in feature length productions. So I guess my question is, "Can I trust getting good enough captures to use and have tape as a backup?" (as done with DV) or iare the recordings done by HDV the backup and/or the "playback at the shoot" footage.
Thanks.

John McGinley
July 1st, 2005, 04:50 PM
I think it's clear what he's saying is, regardless of what you see on the monitor HDV Rack is saving the file without error.

The monitoring is just a preview of what you're getting.

If the preview is studdering because your system is too slow, you're still saving an uncorrupted HDV file.

And that for the purposes of previewing the incoming data stream, you can either choose, full speed video or full res video but no system is currently able to handle both. But the HDV stream you're saving on the drive is full res and fullspeed.

That about right Mark?

Mark Mapes
July 1st, 2005, 04:59 PM
DV Rack always records the full video stream. Nothing that you do in DV Rack has any effect on what is recorded. However, if have the three throttle controls set such that your CPU ever reaches 100%, then data will be lost in the recorded clip--that can manifest itself as dropped frames or as artifacts within the image.

If you do a few test recording and play with different combinations of throttle settings while watching your CPU usage (through Task Manager), you will quickly determine which combination gives you safe CPU headroom. As long as you stick with a "safe" combination while recording, you can be confident that you'll get intact recordings.

I'm lobbying for the implementation of what we could term an auto-throttle that would monitor CPU usage--if it exceeds a threshold setting, then the program would automatically reduce one or more of the throttle settings. Think of it as overdraft protection. I'd be interested in whether customers would find that a desirable feature.

You write: "(I can) set the playback of clips at a lesser resolution and/or framerate." Just to be clear, the three throttles affect both monitoring of the live feed, regardless of whether you're recording or not, and playback of recorded clips.

Bottom line: With the throttles set correctly, you should have complete faith in HDV recordings from DV Rack.

Jerry Waters
July 1st, 2005, 08:40 PM
Mi culpa. I didn't read your message well enough and skimmed over "the full HDV
stream is recorded regardless" the first time. There is another "problem" I forgot to mention, and from what you are saying the throttle is the problem there also -- there is a terrific lag time between what the camera is seeing and what the Rack monitor shows. A person can walk in, sit in a chair the camera is focused on and Rack will be showing an empty chair for several seconds before the person appears in the monitor.

I'll try resetting things and let you know how it goes.

John McGinley
July 1st, 2005, 08:48 PM
If you're using an FX1 the firewire is about a 2 second delay, I think the Z1 has more of realtime firewire transfer.

Douglas Spotted Eagle
July 1st, 2005, 08:57 PM
Actually, they are the same, a 2 set of GOP behind. Due to the M2T decode, it's not realtime from any camera.
Although it seems a little squirrelly at first, you get used to it really fast, and other than doing a rack focus, it won't bother you, or rather, it doesn't bother me.

John McGinley
July 2nd, 2005, 01:05 AM
Ahh, I was going off this chart which probably came out before the camera was actually in hand.

http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/sonyhdrfx1/compare.php

Maheel Perera
July 4th, 2005, 10:11 AM
You are back DSE. How about sharing your views regarding the HDV power pack for DV Rack.

Douglas Spotted Eagle
July 4th, 2005, 06:57 PM
I love the HDV powerpak for HDV Rack. It takes a little getting used to in terms of the latency of the m2t stream, but unless Serious Magic partners with a laptop video card company to decode the stream via hardware....it'll always be there. Once you get past the latency, it's very useful. great for setting up the shot, great for field monitoring.

Shawn Redford
July 5th, 2005, 03:50 PM
Can HDV Rack record audio from a separate/secondary firewire audio source, such as a Presonus Firebox, while simultaneosly recording the transport stream of the FX1/Z1 (all on the same PC)?

Similary, can HDV Rack record the transport stream for TWO FX1/Z1 cameras at the same time on a single PC? The FAQ at SeriousMagic mentions that only one firewire signal can be monitored at a time, but it's not clear if only one signal can be recorded at a time.

http://www.seriousmagic.com/help/faqs.cfm?prod=DV%20Rack&faqid=1#q37

Douglas Spotted Eagle
July 5th, 2005, 04:00 PM
1 camera requires 1 laptop
2 cameras require 2 laptops
etc. Windows cannot split the m2t streams intelligently, therefore HDV Rack can't know which camera to get what signal from.

I've not tried recording to a disk drive AND to Rack at the same time in the HDV world, I don't believe it would be possible, but...even though Serious Magic says you can't record to a Firestore and to Rack at the same time (in DV) I've done it. They also say you can't stack a 1394 drive and DV Rack at the same time, but I've done that too. I think they're looking to reduce tech support calls; that's what I'd do.

Mark Mapes
July 5th, 2005, 04:06 PM
No on both counts. We've had several requests for the ability to record a separate audio stream, so that will be a strong candidate to be among the features in the next major version we release.

While DV Rack does allow you to switch among as many cameras as you can connect to your computer (each on its own FireWire bus), you can record only one at a time, and you cannot switch sources while recording. We're looking into the feasibility of recording multiple video streams simultaneously, but from what I understand there are hardware limitations that make it impracticle with current hardware.

Ed Szarleta
July 6th, 2005, 08:14 PM
A very informative thread. DSE and Mark...as always, you guys rock. A quick question if I may. I was wondering what main differences between the HDV and SD versions as far as color correction goes? I monitor most of my HDV footage on location with my Sony SD PVM series monitors and I find that it's really accurate.

I downloaded the trial of DVRack and used the SD output while recording HDV to tape, and it also performed well for my purposes. I would only use Rack for monitor purposes, so I was curious as to the benefit of the HDV Power Pack for my specific use. If I don't have to deal with the latency issue, I would prefer not to. Thanks in advance.

Mark Mapes
July 7th, 2005, 12:26 PM
Ed,
What do you mean by "color correction"? I normally think of color correction as affecting the recorded content or the output of an NLE, compositing program, etc. (But then I'm still a relative novice in the video field, so my concept of the term may be too narrow.) In any case, let's be clear that
DV Rack doesn't do anything that affects the recorded content.

I'm guessing that your question pertains to calibrating the Field Monitor to get accurate color representation & brightness. I don't have the experience with "real" hardware monitors to offer an opinion on how DV Rack compares, but I will point out that if you're hardware monitor is taking its feed from the camera's S-Video output, then it's showing you the uncompressed image; in this regard DV Rack is superior because it's showing you how the image looks after being compressed and decompressed just as it will be regardless of whether you're recording to tape or direct to disk.

Again, I'll leave it to others to assess the accuracy of color representation, and I'll be interested in their opinions.

Douglas Spotted Eagle
July 7th, 2005, 12:36 PM
Having seen HDVRack on a properly set up laptop, and having seen it next to a Sony Luma monitor which is essentially the same image, they're so close that it would be a little silly to say anything about it. Close enough that the video card in the laptop could easily be blamed for any gamma diffs.

Bruce Quayle
January 17th, 2006, 01:14 AM
I downloaded the trial of DVRack and used the SD output while recording HDV to tape, and it also performed well for my purposes. I would only use Rack for monitor purposes, so I was curious as to the benefit of the HDV Power Pack for my specific use. If I don't have to deal with the latency issue, I would prefer not to.
I have a similar situation and would really appreciate a qualified answer to Ed's question.
Cheers,
Bruce

Abel Vang
January 17th, 2006, 03:46 AM
does the HDV Rack support the JVC GY-HD100U at 720p/24p???

Douglas Spotted Eagle
January 17th, 2006, 08:54 AM
I have a similar situation and would really appreciate a qualified answer to Ed's question.
Cheers,
Bruce

I'm not sure I understand the question, which is why it wasn't answered (I assume) by either Mark or I.
HDV powerPak allows you to plug an HDV camcorder into the laptop and monitor it. Without the plugin, you can't monitor HDV.
The latency is a byproduct of the compressed format, as it reads off the camera, your laptop has to decode the stream. Therefore, you'll have latency of up to .5 seconds, depending on the speed of your laptop.
And yes, DVRack with HDV PowerPak supports the JVC format.

Shawn Alyasiri
January 17th, 2006, 03:08 PM
Mark,

I have the HDV rack and have just started to use it with the HD100 and the Sony Z1. So far so good, with a lot of testing to go.

Do you know if it will work with the new Canon H1 (another camera I'm very close to purchasing). I'm guessing that it will work very well in 1080/60i mode, similar to the Z1. The wildcard is their 24F format. It has me guessing to know if your stuff will jive with it, and record it with their intended 24p emulation.

Please advise and thanks much,

Shawn

Karl Soule
January 26th, 2006, 07:39 PM
Hi Guys,

As of today, the 24-frame recording modes on the newer JVC HD-100 and the new Canon XLH-1 have not been officially tested and qualified with the HDV PowerPak. The HDV PowerPak was designed to meet all specifications used in the HDV format, and the 24-frame modes were added later (JVC calls it "Pro-HD".)

Jerry Matese
February 12th, 2006, 11:51 AM
Is Serious Magic seriously looking into DV50 and DV100 capture for camcorders like the HVX-200 as a alternative to P2/FS-100 or even FCP on Powerbooks?

Mark Mapes
February 12th, 2006, 12:00 PM
Absolutely. I'd say it's not a matter of if but when. In fact, at Serious Magic we're currently in the process of evaluating all of our product lines towards the end of mapping out our R&D course & schedule. As one of the proponents for putting DV50/DV100 support at the top of the list, I'd encourage all of you who are eager for that to make yourselves heard by dropping a note to me at mmapes@seriousmagic.com. The more the merrier.

Heath Vinyard
February 12th, 2006, 02:32 PM
Hi Guys,

As of today, the 24-frame recording modes on the newer JVC HD-100 and the new Canon XLH-1 have not been officially tested and qualified with the HDV PowerPak. The HDV PowerPak was designed to meet all specifications used in the HDV format, and the 24-frame modes were added later (JVC calls it "Pro-HD".)

Hello.
Any idea when this will happen and what the upgrade process will be? I just bought a JVC HD100 and will be purchasing DV Rack/HD add on tomorrow.

Thank you.

Jay Lee
February 12th, 2006, 07:14 PM
I'm also wondering about compatibility with the JVC HD100 in 24P mode (HD of course). What works, what doesn't and what is the timeline for full functionality?

Jerry Matese
February 12th, 2006, 10:13 PM
Absolutely. I'd say it's not a matter of if but when. In fact, at Serious Magic we're currently in the process of evaluating all of our product lines towards the end of mapping out our R&D course & schedule. As one of the proponents for putting DV50/DV100 support at the top of the list, I'd encourage all of you who are eager for that to make yourselves heard by dropping a note to me at mmapes@seriousmagic.com. The more the merrier.

Mark,

That's great news! While I'm dreaming, let's talk to R&D about a portable system that can capture two or more streams of time code synced DV50/DV100 and 4-8 channels of 24/96 discreet audio via a small format fire wire based outboard mic pre mixer. Just image a laptop or portable box capable of such a feet. The engineer/director would have the luxury of two calibrated on-sreen monitors and a virtual (pro tools/logic pro style) audio mixer. Control rooms and video trucks would become a thing of the past! Imagine how much folks would pay for such a thing!!!!!!!!!

Alex Raskin
February 21st, 2006, 10:35 AM
No on both counts. We've had several requests for the ability to record a separate audio stream, so that will be a strong candidate to be among the features in the next major version we release..

Let me strongly add my voice to the necessity of a separate audio stream recorded in sync with the video, but as a separate uncompressed file, with the ability to choose the audio Source.

Case in point: FX1/Z1 audio is not very good. So double system is needed. Double system = major inconvenience in post since one has to re-sync video with audio. Since audio did not start/stop when video recording did, it's hard to find the sync points.

Audio (in my case) is being recorded on a PC (same as used to capture live video stream!) via a very good quality mic preamp that outputs to PC via USB.

So... all the HDV rack has to do... is allow for USB sound source to be chosen as audio input... then record video as usual (including its audio data) PLUS a separate uncompressed audio file with the same name as video file, simultaneously. The system must provideo an accurate sync of audio and video, so later on, in NLE, all you have to do is manually adjust the audio file's beginning frame with video file's beginning frame to get a sync.

Possible?

Seth Bloombaum
February 21st, 2006, 11:31 AM
...Double system = major inconvenience in post since one has to re-sync video with audio. Since audio did not start/stop when video recording did, it's hard to find the sync points...

Worse, HDV recording in Rack does not record accurate timecode from the camera (every clip starts at 0:00), so we lose a major tool one would use in syncing double-system sound in post. HDV recording in Rack is useless to me until it lays down camera time code. The general idea here is that timecode can be used to sync two devices or two sources (duh). For some reason this wasn't recognized by as important by SM when HDVRack was released. Of course it is extremely important for multicamera iso and double system.

Strangely, DV recordings in Rack do lay down camera time code accurately, but when we get to the more "pro" HDV format, we lose basic functionality.

I'm just very frustrated with this, and have been since November when I bought the upgrade only to find out that it's not really functional with timecode. So far, product and company do not meet my expectations.

Mark Mapes
February 21st, 2006, 01:39 PM
DV Rack's lead developer tells me he has conquered the timecode issues. We have not yet run a build to test, but it's a good bet that a forthcoming update will clear that issue off the boards.

We've recently discussed adding support for multi-track audio, and it's safe to say that it will be coming. It's too early to set even a target for the version that will include that capability.

Heath Vinyard
February 23rd, 2006, 12:20 PM
DV Rack's lead developer tells me he has conquered the timecode issues. We have not yet run a build to test, but it's a good bet that a forthcoming update will clear that issue off the boards.

We've recently discussed adding support for multi-track audio, and it's safe to say that it will be coming. It's too early to set even a target for the version that will include that capability.

Hello Mark.
Thank you for addressing this issue. This has been the one thing that has held me back from purchasing. Could you give a time frame for this fix? Also, if I purchase DV Rack/HDV now, would the upgrade be free for the fix? This is in regard to the time code issue.

Thank you.

Seth Bloombaum
September 22nd, 2006, 09:38 PM
Has Serious Magic addressed the issue of HDV camera timecode in 2.0?

I'm happy to report that Sony Vegas now supports HDV camera timecode for firewire captures from the Z1, I've seen it work. Haven't yet tested out with other HDV cameras.

Would love to see this basic functionality in the HDV version of 2.0 - is it there?

Karl Soule
September 29th, 2006, 11:08 PM
This didn't make it into the 2.0 release, but will be in the update coming hopefully next week.

We are also adding a new recording mode for HDV - MPEG-2 Program Stream recording. These files are much more compatible with older NLE's. Plus, in MPG mode, we are able to support HDV time-lapse, stop-motion, and more. This should also be a boon to FCP editors, since Final Cut won't read native M2T files.

Seth Bloombaum
September 30th, 2006, 12:37 PM
Karl, I'm very disappointed in Serious Magic's apparent lack of dedication to their existing customers. Resolution of the HDV timecode issue was positioned to customers as something to be included in an update release of 1.x, and free.

Now, SM is encouraging upgrade to 2.x, and you are suggesting that there will be future update release of 2.x with working HDV timecode.

Do you see the credibility issue here? You only have to read 2 messages up in this thread to to see another SM rep writing that the issue was resolved in February! What happened to inclusion in the 1.2 release?

My story is this:
I purchased the HDV powerpack in Nov. 2005 for an upcoming hdv shoot that involved double-system sound.

Testing revealed that camera timecode was not recorded by DVRack in HDV... while standard def timecode has always functioned correctly.

I called a tech support person, who insisted that it did work, I then spun my wheels through several more rounds of testing, but I couldn't make it work, and I had to take a different approach for the project.

Since that time, in various telephone calls and forum postings I've been told by SM representatives that timecode doesn't exist in a firewire hdv stream, it does exist but in various places depending on camcorder manufacturer, the developer was off working on other SM products but would get to it "next week", and finally, that SM was aware of the issue and that a fix would be included in v1.2 (released late spring, as I recall).

Here we are, 10 months later, after an update release and a new version release, and no fix - but another soft committment that it'll happen next week.

Until this issue is resolved HDV in DVRack offers an incomplete solution for shoots involving double-system sound or multiple cameras, and some real obstacles to workflow. It doesn't work as well as DV. It does not deliver on the promise of enhanced workflow with hard-drive recording in the field.

Having each clip start at TC 0:00 does not support logging, double system sound, or multicamera shoots. Timecode is a foundational tool important in video production and workflow since the beginning of computer-aided editing in the early 1970s.

I'm trying to be restrained in this post, but please be aware that I am extremely frustrated with SM's initial release of an incomplete HDV HD recorder, lack of performance in resolving the issue, and inconsistency in their communications about the product and release plans.

Mark Mapes
September 30th, 2006, 01:40 PM
I have no recollection of what derailed the HDV timecode support between Feb. when I posted that a fix was in works and late June when the patch was released--this issue slipped off my radar in the course of bouncing between several projects.

What I can assure you is that your post a week ago prompted DV Rack's lead developer to dig back into HDV timecode. He tells me he has the Sony cams covered. I'm nearly certain that I confirmed the fix, but I'll need to doublecheck that on Monday. We're down to a small handful of minor issues, so this patch should be available next week.

You cite several statements from our technical support personnel. With the exception of the assertion that DV Rack already supported HDV timecode, all of those statements reflected what we knew at the time. Since we were clearly on the learning curve, those statements should have been framed in terms of "as we understand things..." rather than as statements of absolute fact. To their credit, a few of the guys on the tech support crew took the initiative to research the matter to determine whether in fact there was timecode in the HDV stream. I distinctly recall them reporting that two different authorities had confirmed that no timecode existed in the data stream that was sent out over the Firewire.

If you feel that it unfair that an upgrade is required to get the forthcoming Sony HDV timecode support (and you wouldn't have bought the upgrade on its other merits anyway), then I encourage you to contact our customer support desk to discuss an acceptable solution.

Thank you for bringing this matter back to our attention.

Karl Soule
October 3rd, 2006, 02:51 PM
Hi Seth, (and others using HDV,)

At this point, there are 3 main flavors of HDV, and Sony is about to add a 4th. Just to be clear, I need to define them here:

720p/30p, recorded on JVC HD-1 or HD-10. Referred to here as "720p".

720p/30p or 24p, recorded on JVC HD-100 (or variant.) Referred to here as "ProHD 720."

1080i recorded on Sony or Canon cameras, referred to here as "1080i."

Sony is about to release a 1080p camera as well.


Now, regarding timecode - The original JVC 720p implentation does not output timecode out the FireWire port. Recording direct from an HD-1 or HD-10 will not include timecode information. This has been confirmed by JVC.

The ProHD 720 format recorded by the HD-100 and its variants does contain timecode.

The 1080i format also contains timecode, but very few NLE's have been able to read it. Vegas 7 is one of the few. DV Rack has always recorded the clips with timecode data, but it did not display the timecode until very recently. Our engineer has addressed that issue, and now the timecode data in a 1080i M2T file is displayed in DV Rack 2.1, which should ship in the next day or so.

According to a couple of sources, the timecode data in 1080i can also be off by as much as 15 frames (1 GOP) because it is only stored for the I-frames. I have not confirmed this yet with Sony, but I've heard it from several sources in the industry.

Jerry Waters
October 3rd, 2006, 04:02 PM
Sony is about to issue a 1080p camera? I saw the 24p that is recorded to tape as 1080i. Is this another one?

Seth Bloombaum
October 3rd, 2006, 05:59 PM
I've been in some off-forum discussions with Mr. Mapes of S.M., and can confirm that the Firewire stream from a 1080i camera does show correct timecode in Vegas V7, whether captured directly from tape or via DVRack/HDV hard drive recording. In fact, a recording he has made from a Sony FX1 to DVRack 1.2 shows correct camera timecode in Vegas V7.

He's also confirmed that the current version of 2.x (is that 2.1?) correctly displays TC from a 1080i camera, although Karl has indicated this may be the next build released.

He has made the point to me very strongly that anything pushed down firewire by the camcorder should be correctly recorded in DVRack, regardless of how DVR displays timecode. What this means to me is that if a tape capture from say, a JVC HD100 shows timecode in Vegas V7 so will a DVrack recording of the firewire stream.

I hope this is helpful to others' understanding of the status of HDV timecode in DVRack and other prosumer products - camcorder manufacturers initially agreed to a standard for HDV that was neuteral on TC position in the firewire stream, which has led to a real mess as NLE manufacturers try to figure it out, with DVRack right in the middle of the workflow. I'm just glad that the problem is slowly being recognized and solutions are finally coming.

Karl Soule
October 3rd, 2006, 08:27 PM
The "cine-look" modes on the Z1u and FX-1 are not actual 24p recording modes, but rather a way to simulate 24p in an interlaced format. These aren't recommended for 24p production.

Sony has a new camera coming out - the V1U, which uses CMOS sensors instead of CCD's, and has a true 1440x1080 progressive recording format. It can record 30p and 24p. Again, this will be another variant to the HDV spec. I don't have a lot of details about this camera yet, since there are only a handful in North America

Douglas Spotted Eagle has a review here - http://www.creativemac.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=67595

I do not have timecode information about this new format, but in keeping with the axiom of "record what the camera provides," if it's in there, DV Rack should record it. Now, we'll have to wait and see which NLE reads it. :)

Jeff Kellam
October 4th, 2006, 08:41 PM
Hi Seth, (and others using HDV,)

Now, regarding timecode - The original JVC 720p implentation does not output timecode out the FireWire port. Recording direct from an HD-1 or HD-10 will not include timecode information. This has been confirmed by JVC.



This is, of course, wrong.

Obviously SM has not even done the most basic research, like look at the software provided with the GR HD-X cameras.

Even the JVC HD Capture Utility 1.0 software supplied with the cameras in 2003 showed the timecode. Of course the computer timecode is the same as that displayed on the camera display (or it would be useless).

What other simple facts has SM missed?

Douglas Spotted Eagle
October 5th, 2006, 07:04 AM
What other simple facts has SM missed?

It must be easy to miss simple facts, because the simple fact is, not all camcorders provide all of the information in the HDV stream.

Marc Colemont
October 5th, 2006, 09:50 AM
Thanks Karl for the detailed information.
It's clear the HDV is a floating format where manufactures do their own thing and make modifications without distributing detailed documents of what is included in the formats or not.

Jeff, are you sure you were not using DV mode instead of the HDV mode when you saw the time-code?

Karl Soule
October 5th, 2006, 10:35 AM
Jeff, were your tests with recorded clips from tape, or from a live feed? JVC has confirmed for us that the timecode generator is downstream of the live feed provided by the FireWire port, which means direct-to-disk recorders like DV Rack will not record timecode from the HD-1 and HD-10.

Jeff Kellam
October 6th, 2006, 07:09 AM
Jeff, were your tests with recorded clips from tape, or from a live feed? JVC has confirmed for us that the timecode generator is downstream of the live feed provided by the FireWire port, which means direct-to-disk recorders like DV Rack will not record timecode from the HD-1 and HD-10.

Originally I was looking at recorded captures.

I just re-tested while capturing video.

1. turn on laptop,
2. start camera & connect 1394
3. start recording
4. as soon as you hit record on the camera, the timecode starts on the laptop in sync with the camera.

Please let me know if you need additional testing or anything. I would like to see timecode working for the GR-HDs if its possible.

Karl Soule
October 6th, 2006, 10:25 AM
Jeff,

I have tried to replicate this multiple times with our JVC GR-HD1U (serial number 118607XX) and have never been able to get accurate time code data direct from the camera without recording to tape first. All we have ever seen are jumbled numbers. After reading your initial post, I tried it again with the newest version of DV Rack, and got the same results.

In April 2005, at NAB, I had a discussion with a JVC rep about it, and was told that the timecode generator is downstream of the FireWire port, and won't output live via FireWire. At that time, he said this was one of the things they were addressing with their new line of HDV cameras (ProHD HD-100).

I've also talked with other HD-1 owners who reported a similar experience with garbled jumping timecode when recording live, and I've shared what I learned from the JVC rep.

I can't explain your results - maybe JVC revved the innards of the camera? Maybe there was a bad batch of cameras in the initial run? I don't have an answer for that.

The good news is that if it's in the M2T stream, then DV Rack will record it. If you can, please download the trial version of DV Rack 2.0 HD, and see if the timecode data is captured. Test out the M2T clip in your NLE, and report your results here.

Jamon Lewis
October 7th, 2006, 02:39 AM
i need something like this for Mac... No dvrack support for Mac?