I think these cameras may be in the minority of cameras being used with C-D recorders, but they do provide some advantages and disadvantages to non-tape based cameras.

One advantage is that we can roll tape as a backup, which is a cheap, reliable archival format.

One disadvantage is that it is necessary to roll tape to trigger the recording of the nano. Reaching over (or up) to trigger the nano manually is impractical, unless one is in a stationary position on a tripod and recording very long shots.

Fortunately, those two things work pretty well together... as long as record run time code is being used. If free run time code is necessary (as in many multi-camera shoots, where the cameras can't be connected to distribute time code to all) that presents a problem. If the camera's TC is left free running, the nano will continue to record.

The HDX900 does have a power out/tally out connector, which is on the back of the camera. It is typically used to power wireless receivers or to provide remote tally when the camera is on a jib or crane. I imagine that a cable could be made to trigger the nano by connecting the tally out connection (requires a 4-pin Hirose) to the 10-pin Hirose female connector supplied by C-D. Is that a cable C-D could make if I supply the pin-out?

Is there another more practical solution to this?

I thought it might be possible to make a one-size-fits-all cable with a sensor, which could be affixed over any tally light and connect to the nano's remote connector to start recording. That would work for any camera with a tally light.

Sensors such as these are currently used to wirelessly transmit tally for jib operators. Maybe we could steal their idea for our own purposes?

Your thoughts?

Dear Steve,

We have multiple options.

If you want to record in camera and with our Flash XDR or nanoFlash, then the Record Run option is available. We agree with your statement that this is not always a great solution. I try hard to explain this to everyone when we talk about the Trigger on Incrementing Timecode.

If you do not want to record in camera, we have a Remote Control cable for the nanoFlash. This has a tally light. You could also record in camera, but this would require pressing two record buttons, not very practical.

We could design a general purpose sensor that would attach to your tally light.
It would be more difficult if your tally light flashes.

The HDX-900 has a Record Tally light output on the 4-Pin Hirose Power Out connector, Pin 1 = Ground, Pin 2 = Record Tally (Open Collector).

We could design a circuit to work with this output.

Also, some cameras put out a Record Flag in the HD-SDI output. If we can get this to work, it would be the best option. But, as usually, we do not expect every camera to set this flag.

So, we have many options.

Dan,

I do use the incrementing time option to record audio, video and TC through the HD-SDI stream. That works well as long as record run TC is being used. I have to record on tape in the camera with the HDX900 because there is no other way to get the TC to increment in record run mode... hence the problem. I don't know if the HDX900 has a record flag in the SDI stream, but that would be great if it could be used instead of another external cable.

I have thought about buying a couple of the remote cables (one for each camera and nano) to use as an optional way to trigger the nano separately while recording with free running TC. As you stated though, it would be a little clumsy to have two record buttons.

I will check with Panasonic to see if there is a record flag in the SDI stream.

I am attaching a .png file of the pin-out for the camera's tally connector. This agrees with what you stated in your reply, but there is also a record start/stop switch on pin 3, which is in parallel with the record buttons on the camera and lens. I don't know if this would sense the start/stop from the other buttons or if it only provides an additional location for that function... just wondering.

Thanks,
Steve

Dear Steve,

We could built a custom remote control that started the nanoFlash and your HDX-900.

There is a danger, since these are pulse operated, that they could get out of sync, so I would recommend that we do not make one of these.

As I read the manual, it is pulse to record, pulse to stop.

Dan,

I agree... that seems a little risky. It looks as though the best way to do this would be via the tally or via a record flag in the SDI stream. I don't see how either of those could get out of sync with the camera's recorder.

Thanks,
Steve

I posted this in another thread, but had actually meant to include some of this info here, since it pertains to tape based cameras. Some of the info below pertains specifically to the Panasonic HDX900, but some would be pertinent to all tape based cameras.

The nano does record if the camera is rewound for a playback check. As soon as the tape rolls, the time code increments and the nano starts to record. I don't know if there is any way for the nano to differentiate between TC from record mode or playback. (Can it be set to look for generated vs. regenerated TC?)

For that reason as well as a couple of other reasons, I currently have the HDX900 output set to "Camera" instead of "VTR", so that rewinding for playback check will not start the nano recording. Of course, I usually check playback from the nano if I have a monitor hooked up. But, if you don't have a monitor available for playback and you need to view a take in the viewfinder, this setup won't trigger the nano.

Another reason to use "Camera" instead of "VTR"...

In the Goodman's Guide, Robert Goodman wrote about the difference between the VTR output and the camera output. The VTR output is 8 bit and the camera's output is 10 bit. (FYI, I believe that info is also found in the mostly useless Panasonic manual.) I have not been able to determine whether the EE output (with the switch in the "VTR" position) is 8 bit or if it is still 10 bit unless the tape is actually playing back. So, just to be safe, I keep it in the "Camera" position.

And yes, I know the nano is only an 8 bit recorder, but one should still realize a better quality recording on the nano if the signal it receives is cleaner.

Also, I record from the "Monitor Out" connector instead of the "Video Out" connector. I use the "Monitor Out" because I have all menus, characters and markers for the monitor output turned off in the camera's menus. Turning those back on requires going into the menus and going to some trouble to turn them back on.

The video output (on the back of the camera) is much easier to turn characters on and off and is therefore, much more prone to disaster. I use that for monitoring since it won't matter if characters are superimposed.

FYI, it's a good idea to save your user data file after making changes such as these. If you have to re-set your camera for any reason, you won't have something defaulting to the wrong setting. Remember, your scene files won't change these items, but a card file might, depending on how you have your camera set to read and write to and from the SD cards.

I hope this helps.

Steve

Dear Steve,
Also, some cameras put out a Record Flag in the HD-SDI output. If we can get this to work, it would be the best option. But, as usually, we do not expect every camera to set this flag.

So, we have many options.

Dan it would be great to have support for the SDI record flag as I can envisage cameras supporting this with their EXT REC function in the way they currently do with FireWire.

Regards

Dave C

Dear Dave,

We just need to determine more information about this flag, such as where it is in the HD-SDI data stream.

In regard to the info I posted above about using the Monitor Out from the HDX900, it occurred to me tonight I probably should have included a couple of additional tidbits. So, here goes...

"Video Out" is affected by the VTR/Cam switch on the "driver's side" of the camera. (For those of you in the UK, I guess that would be the passenger's side.)
"Monitor Out" must have the VTR/Cam selection chosen from the menus as follows:
"System Settings" > "Output Select" > "Moni Out Mode" - Once you're there, select "Cam". No matter how the VTR/Cam switch is set, the Monitor Out will not be changed... only the Video Out will be changed.

The entire menu should probably read as follows:
Output Item - TC
Moni Out - HD-SDI (of course)
Moni Out Chara - Off
Moni Out Mode - Cam


The HD-SDI setting in the second list item above is another good reason to use the Monitor Out instead of the Video Out. The Video Out connector has two possible down conversion settings... SD-SDI and Composite. It would be really easy to move that switch accidentally while changing time code or an audio setting. And wouldn't it really suck to do an entire shoot and only record SD-SDI?

Happy shooting!

Steve Brown
10-20 Productions
Tampa, FL

Hey Steve, after using the Nanoflash with my F900 these are my observations,

Since the Nano is taking in HDSDI you can put it almost anywhere on set. If the TC needs to be set to record-run you can hook the gizmo up to video assist and have that operator start/stop it, to the sound recordist if you're doing a dual-system record or even just next to a monitoring station for a PA to press the button (and confirm it's rolling).

The Nanoflash does roll for 5 sec when you Rec Review to check the gate but the clips are all almost the exact same size so it's pretty easy to sort by file size then delete the small files. I never found it tough to clean them out and they don't take up much room on the cards/drives. Should take you about 60 sec to clean out those files from a project.

Just my 2¢

Paul... good suggestions if one is working in a studio situation or anywhere a Video City might be set up. When I work as EIC, I'd love to have the nano on my cart instead of at the camera.

I'm more worried about the times when we're shooting ENG or EFP style, where the nano has to be mounted atop the HDX900.

This is especially a problem for the multi-camera situation and free-run time-of-day is necessary. It occurred to me that a solution to that would be for each camera to receive wireless time code. Time code, and therefore the nanos, could be remotely started by someone sitting at the TC generator.

Of course, that only works if everyone is shooting the same scene in the same area. I'm just thinking out loud here.

I wish I had the nano when I was doing a ton of multi-cam shoots with a switcher and full flight pack rig.

[/list]
The entire menu should probably read as follows:
Output Item - TC
Moni Out - HD-SDI (of course)
Moni Out Chara - Off
Moni Out Mode - Cam



Hey Steve,

First, thanks for all the guidance!

I was finally getting around to putting your comments together for the HDX-900 owners I work with and something about your Monitor Out Menu settings raised a question.

Above you note that the "Moni Out Chara" should be set to OFF. Is this setting independent of the VF display? Can the operator have his preferred VF characters ON while the Monitor Out spigot has none? That would make my camera ops very happy.

BTW, just got your info off your website and I'll add you to my HDX-900 owners list.

Thanks!

Dear Dave,

We just need to determine more information about this flag, such as where it is in the HD-SDI data stream.

There is record start/stop information in the VITC/LTC user bits data. It is located on the last digit of the users bits data. Many Panasonic decks can record on start/stop using this.

To avoid the other problem, where the nano is triggered during playback, you could take the TC from your TC Out instead of the embedded TC, and then set your TC to TCG only. This way it only outputs timecode when generated, not on playback.

Dear Andy,

Thank you for posting this valuable information, this is just the information that we needed!

Bob,

I'm sorry I didn't see your post. I must have forgotten to subscribe to the thread.

I'm pretty sure the viewfinder display is completely independent of the monitor output. It has been so long since I set up my viewfinder display that I don't actually remember exactly what I did there. I have the inportant info there, but I don't have it cluttered with every possible choice. That info doesn't change much for me. Just keep in mind that, if you make changes like these, to save them to your user data file. If you don't, you could have problems if you have to re-set the camera.

The monitor output is a little harder to get to and to change since there isn't a switch on the camera. That's why I use it for recording to my nano.

I hope this answers your question. I will do a quick check when I get to my shop today to see if there is anything I'm forgetting regarding your question.

Absolutely, it answers my question. Thanks!

Hello Steve,
Another possible way to trigger the NanoFlash may be to take a pulse from the lens remote connector which could fire the Nanoflash. This would allow to set the Nano to internal TC and operate regardless of camera TC or tape. I have an older SD production camera that I would like to use the NanoFlash on and this was one method that could work. I have not had time to investigate it further so it’s still only a theory.

Dear Lance,

We agree. We have this in our plans.

Lance and Dan... I assume the nano would have to generate TC in that case. I haven't actually tried using the nano to generate Record Run TC, but I assume it does do that. Is that correct?

Of course, that would mean getting the correct custom cable to go between the lens and the camera body to trigger the nano. That could be expensive and, of course, you'd have to have a backup, because s#&* happens :-(

I like Andy's idea for triggering the nano from the camera's VITC/User Bits record flag. I wonder though... will that flag be generated if there is no tape in the camera?

Dear Steve,

Yes, the nanoFlash can generate internal timecode, in multiple formats, including Time of Day, Record Run and others.

We have found an expert in making these "Lens" cables, someone with lots of experience. I do not know what the price will be.

Yes, we will be detecting the Record Flag in the User Bits. We will get to this as soon as possible. However, we do not have a Panasonic Varicam to test with at time.

At this time, subject to change, I am assuming that the Record Flag in the User Bits will not be set unless the camera is actually recording, thus a tape would be required.

We will study the manual just as soon as we find time.

We are also searching for information on the "Record Flag" that some cameras put into the HD-SDI stream.

Our promised Beta release is expected next week. It is still undergoing our normal internal testing at this time. This will be the same thorough testing that we perform for our regular releases.

As soon as we finish testing, we will be releasing this Beta Release for non-production purposes.

Our new Beta problem will allow our users to test the new features and functions before we release the code for production use.

Thanks, Dan. As always, I appreciate the efforts by everyone at CD!

Well, it is no so impractical if you have a record cable which you can rig in the camera in an easy to reach position close to you. There is also a light on the cable telling you the Nanoflash is in stand by or recording. The cable can be ordered directly from CD in any length. About $80.


I think these cameras may be in the minority of cameras being used with C-D recorders, but they do provide some advantages and disadvantages to non-tape based cameras.

One advantage is that we can roll tape as a backup, which is a cheap, reliable archival format.

One disadvantage is that it is necessary to roll tape to trigger the recording of the nano. Reaching over (or up) to trigger the nano manually is impractical, unless one is in a stationary position on a tripod and recording very long shots.

Fortunately, those two things work pretty well together... as long as record run time code is being used. If free run time code is necessary (as in many multi-camera shoots, where the cameras can't be connected to distribute time code to all) that presents a problem. If the camera's TC is left free running, the nano will continue to record.

The HDX900 does have a power out/tally out connector, which is on the back of the camera. It is typically used to power wireless receivers or to provide remote tally when the camera is on a jib or crane. I imagine that a cable could be made to trigger the nano by connecting the tally out connection (requires a 4-pin Hirose) to the 10-pin Hirose female connector supplied by C-D. Is that a cable C-D could make if I supply the pin-out?

Is there another more practical solution to this?

I thought it might be possible to make a one-size-fits-all cable with a sensor, which could be affixed over any tally light and connect to the nano's remote connector to start recording. That would work for any camera with a tally light.

Sensors such as these are currently used to wirelessly transmit tally for jib operators. Maybe we could steal their idea for our own purposes?

Your thoughts?

Thanks, Dan. As always, I appreciate the efforts by everyone at CD!

Hi Steve

Thanks for your earlier posts.. I,ve copied them safely away! I also have an HDX900.. fine camera except for the view finder :).. and am really thinking of getting the nanoflash as thats the way things seem to be going.. although have not had a request as yet.
have used it once before with a rented F900R.. and looks like a great way to get extra milage from the HDX900..

So sorry but some real newbie questions..

1.As the HDX900 as camera setting and system setting.. so say you want to shoot 1080i 50i system setting,but camera setting 25p.. how do you set the nanoflash? 1080 50i.. 1080i 25p?..

2.Does the nanoflash recording settings have to be the same as those for the tape settings if recording simultaneously ..

3.Do you do the down loads yourself,or insist on a data wrangler..

4.Have you had any {problems} with the nano and HDX900..

5.Is the biggest CF card 32GB.. wonder if a 64GB card is in the works?

Thanks for your time

Dear Robin,

1. The nanoFlash automatically detects the incoming framerate/format/etc.

The only thing we can not detect is whether the camera is sending us Progressive Segmented Frames (PSF) or Interlaced.

Examples include 1080psf29.97 / 1080psf30, or 1080i59.94 / 1080i60.

In this case, one has to properly set up the nanoFlash to say that you are sending us PSF. This allows us to properly convert PSF to true progressive for recording.

I assume the same thing applies to 1080psf25 versus 1080i50.

For 1080psf24, we do this automatically. We can do this since there is no 1080i48, thus we know that it has to be 1080psf24. The same applies to 1080psf23.976 (also known as 1080psf23.98).

2. The settings can be different between the nanoFlash and your internal camera settings.

We take the HD-SDI signal, which is not always the same as is being recorded in the camera. For most cameras, if one is recording over or under-cranked, 720p60 or 1080p30 is what is coming out the HD-SDI. We can then take that signal and record it using the nanoFlash's various modes and options.

3. The data downloads and uploads can be done by yourself, or a data wrangler, your call.

We do recommend that you make backups of your footage.

Within 60 days, we expect to release Redundant Recording so that you can record to two CompactFlash cards simultaneously.

4. The nanoFlash is very popular with the HDX900 owners and users.

5. 64 GB cards are readily available. Quality 64 GB cards are available at a reasonable price.

We have always liked Delkin cards; they always passed our qualification tests with ease.

But, for years, they did not have the capacity and speed, in their card offerrings that we needed. Now they do.

The Delkin 64 GB card is available from multiple sources for less than $300. This card is currently supported by us for any bit-rate up to and including 220 Mbps. We may be able, some time in the future to get this card to work at 280 Mbps, but we are not making any promises. This is our goal, but we have not had the time to achieve it yet.

These cards are available from nanoFlash.net (http://www.nanoFlash.net) and www.BHPhotoVideo.com (http://www.BHPhotoVideo.com).

We expect 128 GB cards to ship this year from multiple manufacturers.

Dan

Let me know if you still need a Varicam for testing.

Andy

Dear Andy,

Yes, we would love to use a Varicam.

I will be in touch so we can coordinate a good time for our tests and development.

We work fine with the Varicam now, it would just be nice to add some new features.

Hi Dan

Thanks again for your response..more questions.. :)

1.If recording without tape.. do the camera settings make any difference.. or does everything have to be set on the nanoflash..

2.Iam still unsure about HDX900 and the varicam.. unlike Sony these Pana camera,s have two settings.. system mode and camera mode.. so the system mode can be 1080i/50i BUT the camera can then be set to 25p.. some internal magic is done to make this a 25p recording and not a 50i.. so I wonder how this is dealt with when recording tape same time.. or just recording to Nanoflash..

Thanks again..good the hear a 128 GB card is on the way.. how much will they hold at 100Mbps .. most jobs I doubt the prod co will want to pay for an extra crew member.. wonder if the 10hr day will include down loading time for the DP.. Iam not holding my breath on that one.. :)

Thanks again

Dear Robin,

The nanoFlash automatically detects the mode/frame rate, etc, for almost all variations of the types of HD/SD-SDI that can be sent to the nanoFlash (HDMI also).

Thus, there are not a lot of settings that have to be done on the nanoFlash.

One does not have to specify 720 or 1080, or the frame rate, etc.

Combine this with the fact that many cameras put out a normal HD/SD-SDI signal, even when they are in special modes such as over and under-cranking (Slow and Quick Modes).

I say all of this to report that "camera settings" may be set in the camera, in many cases the nanoFlash will follow. But, over and under-cranking may be set in the camera or in the nanoFlash.

I will have to think about Question 2.

The 128 GB cards will hold twice that of the 64 GB cards.

For two 128 GB cards (when they become available), at 50 Mbps Long-GOP 4:2:2, one can expect around 10.6 hours of uninterrupted, continuous recording time.

Or 5.3 hours of superb 100 Mbps footage.

Or around 106 hours (4 days and 10 hours) continuous at 5 Mbps SD-DVD.

Please note that all of these values are calculated, not something we have actually tested with a stopwatch or other precise measurement.

At the other extreme, at 280 Mbps I-Frame Only, two 128 GB cards will give you around 120 minutes of continuous recording or playback.

Hi Dan

Thanks again.Obviously the nano works with the HDX900..I just wonder about the settings as this camera,like the varicam has this dual camera set up thing..

I,ll start a new thread .. targeting HDX900 owner/users..

Thanks again