I just downloaded Neo HD and it doesn't recognize either MXF or MOV Nano files so I can't convert. This is a major bummer and getting a Nanoflash is not looking good.

Dear Steve,

We create standard, Sony Optical Disk format, compatible, files.

I wonder if CineForm can work with the XDCam 50 Mbps 4:2:2 CBR files from the Sony PDW-700 and PDW-F800 cameras.

I'm waiting on delivery of my 1DmkIV now but it seems like Cineform is the most popular transcoder on the block for those cameras. Would be brilliant if the Nanoflash files could be run through it as well.

Hi Paul & Steve:
Technicolor in Hollywood and Fotokem have fully embraced Cineform as *THE CODEC* for post. Avid will now be severely pressured into making it fully compatible in Media Composer. A new SSDR is coming out which fully uses it, so it's game over. Cineform wins ! The Canon 5D Mark II will now get its expected 24 and 25 F firmware update. I suspect this was because someone over at Skywalker Ranch wants to shoot a film with these cameras. I understood (??) they will convert or transfer using Cineform. There's another game changer coming which will leave everyone and everything in the dust. I wish I could tell you more now, but I can't until next week, or maybe sooner than that ;-)

But is not the NANO who have to support Cineform.
Is Cineform who have to support the NANO files.
The question should be for the other guys.
rafael

Hi Rafael:
Correct. This would indicate Cineform must also accept to convert the Sony XDCAM HD codec. There is also an added advantage of a recorder being able to record directly in Cineform. I'm supposing this would not be possible in the Nano of XDR. It would be pretty cool to program some kinda routine via a firmware upgrade to the nano and XDR which would allow you to push one of the extra menu buttons and be able to convert to cinefom right inside the box ! I don't know how much hard RAM CD has got inside their FPGA design which would allow a third party program like Cineform to reside.

Here's how it would work.

Step 1: You press a menu selection which changes the shooting mode into a shoot & convert mode.

Step 2: You put two (2) blank high capacity CF Cards into a Nano or 4 blank CF cards into the XDR.

Step 3: Go shoot or simply insert already shot CF cards into the nano CF Card Slot # 1 or Pre-Recorded CF Cards in CF Card Slots # 1 and # 2 in the XDR.

* In this mode in the Nano you can only record to the end of CF media in Slot # 1 and in the XDR only shoot until cards in Slot # 1 and CF Card Slot # 2 are filled.
** A warning comes up once the limit is reached....Telling you to begin conversion.
*** A third option is to program so that *No recording can be performed in this "Conversion Mode," and only pre-recorded CF media should be inserted into Slot # 1 on the Nano and slots # 1 and # 2 on the XDR.*

Step 4: Button number or combo press brings up flashing dialogue, "Begin Conversion ?"

Step 5: Press number whatever ? A Flashing dialogue "Converting media," or "Converting to Cineform" flashes with progressing dots. Now the Nano is taking the pre-recorded clips in slot # 1 and converting and copying converted clips to the blank second CF card media in slot # 2. In the XDR it takes the first 2 slots of pre-recorded CF card media and converts it and copies it over to empty cf card media in slots 3 and 4.

* When conversion process completes, then the dialogue "Conversion Complete" flashes on the screen and won't go away until you hot unplug all the cf cards.

There you go Mike & Tommy ! I just gave you $50,000.00 worth of a program original idea. I expect to be testing a public beta of this next week ;-)

Mark, I like your idea but does it record 10 bit rather than converting the 8 bit recording to 10 bit cineform?

For me, being able to convert the Nano files to a format that works in all my apps from AE to Nuke is essential.

Well, a bit of patient ladies and Gentlemen.
This is just the beginning.
We are are going to a modular format, and a multi-codec, fully scalar recorder will be one of the pieces.
PANASONIC cameras are already recording 10b, but crunched in 100Mbps, and the NANO records at data rates higher than needed for Prores HQ.
At the moment I don't think you can put all that in a box like the NANO, but that is a matter of time.
Cheers,
rafael

Intriguing thread.

First, Cineform does support XDCAM HD/XD for conversion in all Prospect/Neo products HD and above. See the link: Cineform NeotHd : Specifications (http://www.cineform.com/neohd/specifications.php)

I'm guessing it's a problem with the bit rate causing Cineform to freak out, but I'm no engineer. Steve, you may want to post on the Cineform forum to get their POV.

At any rate, I've been hoping and dreaming and praying for a small device like the Nano that would record directly into Cineform. Hearing what Mark is saying about Cineform's big push into the industry is awesome! Maybe my dream can come true.

Hi Chad:
Can you send me a PM with your coordinates ?

Intriguing thread.

First, Cineform does support XDCAM HD/XD for conversion in all Prospect/Neo products HD and above. See the link: Cineform NeotHd : Specifications (http://www.cineform.com/neohd/specifications.php)

I'm guessing it's a problem with the bit rate causing Cineform to freak out, but I'm no engineer. Steve, you may want to post on the Cineform forum to get their POV.

At any rate, I've been hoping and dreaming and praying for a small device like the Nano that would record directly into Cineform. Hearing what Mark is saying about Cineform's big push into the industry is awesome! Maybe my dream can come true.

Something like this?
cinedeckHD (http://www.cinedeck.com)
I don't think it's out yet but coming soon.

I'm sure CD could make a Cineform capture device, not sure it could all fit in the Nano in its current config though. Not everyone needs a monitor so if CD did come out with something like that I think they'd capture another significant portion of the market especially when DSLRs can actually export via HDMI.

Steve, the Cinedeck has been shipping for a little while now. It's quite a little beast. I'm ANXIOUSLY awaiting the 4:4:4 recorder they are coming out with next month. It's exactly the same as the box you see on their site but it'll have dual link HD-SDI 4:4:4 12bit recording. W00T!

I've watched the Cinedeck for a while now. At $5000 it's a about twice what I'm willing to pay for. Like Aaron said, it is a cool little beast. But it's more than I need. Encoder, monitor, computer... I just want the encoder. And honestly that's all I can pay for.

The problem adapting Cineform for a small form factor is that it's not just a codec, it's a software. Making a hardware encoder out of a full on piece of software is a huge task. We'll see what happens.

Exactly Chad. If you know of a camera mounted Cineform (or any high end codec) recorder that will do 4:4:4 12bit for under $10k, let me know! For now, the Cinedeck is the only one that I know of that will do it. It's really quite a bargain and it only costs about what my Convergent Designs XDR did.

I don't need a monitor either, a simple recorder will do. I already own a Marshall. But since this is the only camera mounted 4:4:4 recorder that I know of for under $50k, and it includes a monitor, I'll make do with the monitor.

I just got an email from them and they should have the pre-order form up for the 4:4:4 recorder by Feb 2nd. I'll be first in line.

I just downloaded Neo HD and it doesn't recognize either MXF or MOV Nano files so I can't convert. This is a major bummer and getting a Nanoflash is not looking good.

Hi Steve-
Hang on a bit longer, I think we'll get support for the CineForm CODEC in the near term. I don't have an exact date, but it's a work in progress.

Best-

Aaron, if I had the money or the potential income to justify the $5000, I'd order the Cinedeck tomorrow. $2500 I could swing and even justify to my wife!

I'm shooting with the JVC HD250, 4:2:2 10bit is the best that thing can push out. What are you shooting that has dual HD SDI? You must have some serious toys, my friend. Serious toys indeed...

Aaron, if I had the money or the potential income to justify the $5000, I'd order the Cinedeck tomorrow. $2500 I could swing and even justify to my wife!

I'm shooting with the JVC HD250, 4:2:2 10bit is the best that thing can push out. What are you shooting that has dual HD SDI? You must have some serious toys, my friend. Serious toys indeed...

I don't "WANT" to spend this kind of money for a recorder. In my opinion, some company should be able to make a quality recorder for around $1,000. I mean, look at a Firestore. Those things go for around $1,000. A high bitrate recorder with a decent codec should not be *that* hard to make for a reasonable price.

My camera is a Viper. I've been happily doing 4:2:2 8bit with my Flash XDR for months now. Lot's of good projects shot and a short film shot on the XDR. All with unbelievable quality, especially the short that used Zeiss digiprimes on the Viper. But it's a shame not to do 4:4:4 10bit log with the Viper. That's the highest quality.

The HD250 is a super nice rig though. I shot a lot of stuff on my HD100 and loved that camera. It's not as high end as a 250 but the sensor and optical block are very similar and it can also do 4:2:2 8bit out of the component. Unfortunately the CD boxes have no analog input though.

I'm really pulling for Mark Job (also on this forum), to complete his design for a quality portable recorder, but I think Mark is learning first hand just how tricky this small feat actually is.

Let's face it, we can all do this with a Mac Pro, RAID and an AJA card but I've never been too interested in doing that. Tethered sucks. Portable is the way.

The firestore? Really? I own a Firestore and it's a piece of junk compared to the Nano - poor build quality, breakable plastic and it's DV/HDV only. Add to that a dodgy firewire cable connection and a battery that lasts about 10 minutes in the field, with no way of turning off the annoying battery warning beep even when connected to power. The power connector is extremely iffy as well. Plus you're limited to the size of the hard drive installed. And when they first came out they were a lot more than $1000...

Quality field gear is going to cost more. R&D is not as easily recouped as with mass market items.

Hi Mike:

You wrote:

"Hang on a bit longer, I think we'll get support for the CineForm CODEC in the near term. I don't have an exact date, but it's a work in progress."

....Can this support also be added to the Flash XDR Mike ? Also, can we implement my Cineform conversion routine proposal onto the Nano Flash and Flash XDR as well ? (Everybody scroll back and read the first page near the bottom where I propose a built in Cineform conversion routine and how that *might* function in a Nano and XDR via a firmware upgrade)

I'm really pulling for Mark Job (also on this forum), to complete his design for a quality portable recorder, but I think Mark is learning first hand just how tricky this small feat actually is....Thank you Aaron for the encouraging words ! :-) Oh man ! It's so expensive to design and implement your own FPGA system. I'm poring in the cash, but I'm nearly broke and I want to complete the functional prototype as soon as possible. I'm getting a real crash course in designing a SSDR from the ground up and how difficult it actually is to pull off. The reason I embarked on this project was because i simply could not buy a recorder which did what I needed to be done, and I didn't want to get into expensive purchases of what was then unrealistically high priced large capacity CF card media. When I had the early tip off about the approaching SDXC card format, and it's extremely large capacity and high speed data rate capabilities that I realized a practical SD card media recorder was at least theoretically possible. After all, so many cameras now have an SD video recorder built into them ! Why not design a practical little comprehensive device which is so small and light you can velcro it to a side of a camera, and have its own edge to edge high def monitor and full VTR functions in the post bay as well ?

Mark,
The NANO can record only MPEG-2, because thats his kind of processor.
I don't know much about these matters, but I guess can not be re-programmed to output other kind of stuff.
Mark, if you want catch the 10b Unc recording, your way is "Sheer". Is not the same to record 1.2Gbps than 370 Mbps.
Cheers,
rafael

The firestore? Really? I own a Firestore and it's a piece of junk compared to the Nano - poor build quality, breakable plastic and it's DV/HDV only. Add to that a dodgy firewire cable connection and a battery that lasts about 10 minutes in the field, with no way of turning off the annoying battery warning beep even when connected to power. The power connector is extremely iffy as well. Plus you're limited to the size of the hard drive installed. And when they first came out they were a lot more than $1000...

Quality field gear is going to cost more. R&D is not as easily recouped as with mass market items.

Hi John, I'm not using the Firestore as a shining example of an outstanding product. I'm speaking in terms of manufacturing and design complexity as a justification that we should have higher quality recorders available at cheaper prices.

You can't tell me that a nanoFlash or even an S.two is all that much more difficult to design and manufacture than a Firestore. I'm betting no, it's not more difficult but yet the economies of scale put the nano and S.two at five and fifty times the cost of the Firestore.

It's hard to grasp and accept the effect of economies of scale. This is precisely why a really good prosumer camera (a very complex device), sells for about the same price as a good mattebox (not a very complex device).

You can't tell me that a nanoFlash or even an S.two is all that much more difficult to design and manufacture than a Firestore. I'm betting no, it's not more difficult but yet the economies of scale put the nano and S.two at five and fifty times the cost of the Firestore.

Hi Aaron-
No disrespect intended, but the nanoFlash is considerable more difficult to design and manufacture as compared to the Firestore. The Firestore basically copies the compressed data, generated from the camera, onto a hard-drive (or Compact Flash card). The nanoFlash, on the other hand, has a hardware CODEC engine, which compresses the raw HD-SDI video before writing to our Compact Flash cards. The nanoFlash, can therefore, support a very wide range of bit-rates, while the Firestore is limited to the output from the camera.

The S.Two does not have a hardware CODEC, as it records in uncompressed mode. So, in theory, it's a simplier device, but you have have to deal with very high data-rates, which opens up a whole new area of issues and problems.

The nanoFlash does cost more than the Firestore, but you do get considerable more functionality and features as well as substanially better picture quality. All that comes at the price of increased engineering and manufacturing costs.

Best-

Hi Mike:

You wrote:

"Hang on a bit longer, I think we'll get support for the CineForm CODEC in the near term. I don't have an exact date, but it's a work in progress."

....Can this support also be added to the Flash XDR Mike ? Also, can we implement my Cineform conversion routine proposal onto the Nano Flash and Flash XDR as well ? (Everybody scroll back and read the first page near the bottom where I propose a built in Cineform conversion routine and how that *might* function in a Nano and XDR via a firmware upgrade)

Hi Mark. Not to discourage, but I wouldn't get my hopes up too high about CineForm support being added directly to the CD devices. These boxes are likely to remain MPEG2 recorders for the foreseeable future. CD can comment if I'm wrong.

What is likely to happen though, is that Cineform support for native nano/XDR footage will be implemented. This means you'll be able to record with the nano/XDR and then convert the footage to Cineform for use in post. It doesn't mean the nano/XDR will be turned into Cineform recorders.

Hi Aaron:
No, I think you misunderstood my earlier post on the matter. I'm not saying that CD should add *direct recording* in Cineform to their device, what I'm proposing is they simply load a software XDCAM HD codec to Cineform software converter into memory in their boxes (Nano & XDR) and implement a simple conversion executable from the push of a button in their menu routine. It can't be *that* difficult to implement. I theorize it could be done. CD must inform us if I am incorrect in my proposal.

Hi Mark. Not to discourage, but I wouldn't get my hopes up too high about CineForm support being added directly to the CD devices. These boxes are likely to remain MPEG2 recorders for the foreseeable future. CD can comment if I'm wrong.

What is likely to happen though, is that Cineform support for native nano/XDR footage will be implemented. This means you'll be able to record with the nano/XDR and then convert the footage to Cineform for use in post. It doesn't mean the nano/XDR will be turned into Cineform recorders.

Hi Aaron-
You are 100% correct. We do not plan to add support for the Cineform CODEC inside the nanoFlash - we don't have sufficient logic available. But, we are working with Cineform to make the transcode of our files as smooth as possible.

Best-

Hi Mike:
Nope, that's *NOT* what I'm suggesting. Just get a simple executable software conversion routine to convert XDCAM HD CODEC to CINEFORM and load the executable routine into device memory with a software switch actuated from a button press on the Nano or XDR. (Scroll back and re-read my original proposal on the other page)

Hi Mike:
Nope, that's *NOT* what I'm suggesting. Just get a simple executable software conversion routine to convert XDCAM HD CODEC to CINEFORM and load the executable routine into device memory with a software switch actuated from a button press on the Nano or XDR. (Scroll back and re-read my original proposal on the other page)

Hi Mark-
Sorry a "simple" XDCAM -> Cineform software conversion routine is not so simple to implement. We do not have enough logic inside the nanoFlah or XDR to implement this conversion. Our recorders are fundamentally hardware based and do not have a high-power CPU.

BTW, welcome to the club of developing digital video recorders. It's a bit more challenging then most people realize! When you get your first working demo, you're about 10% of the way to a finished product.

Cheers-

Hi Mike:
Yes, it's frigin hard to design your own SSDR ! So true ! Right now, all I'm aiming at is first working prototype. Once we're there, then we'll see.

Mike, I made my original comment prior to testing the newer Mainconcept plugin for Premiere & AE. Having the MXF files work in AE is essential for me, so I was quite relieved to find the updated plugin working. And I should be ordering a Nano within the next couple of weeks.