Can anyone recommend a new video card that currently supports cineform, CS3 and windows 7 but also will be forward compatible with CS5 and the new mercury engine? Ideally it would support 2 or 3 monitors plus overlay to an HD display or HDTV. Currently I use a Matrox APve which works great with CS3 and Vista but this is an old card now and there is discontinued support for Windows 7

The Abobe blogs seem to recommend the Nvidia Quadro cards (perhaps GeForce GTX 285 or better still Quadro FX 4800) is there still an issue with nvidia, overlay and cineform in CS3?

Any recommendations would be appreciated!

The Abobe blogs seem to recommend the Nvidia Quadro cards (perhaps GeForce GTX 285 or better still Quadro FX 4800) is there still an issue with nvidia, overlay and cineform in CS3?


I wish I could tell you man, but what I can say is I absolutely LOVE my FX4800. GOOD GRACIOUS is that card fast. If the Quadro cards will work for your application, I have no problem recommending them.

Perrone, the FX4800 looks to be an awsome card, not out of the question for a new purchase and it seems it will be supported in CS5. I am assuming I can run 2 display port monitors + DVI out to an HD monitor for video overlay. Question, how does this work with CS3, CS4 and cineform, are there any issues with overlay to an HD monitor? - I need 2 large work station monitors and also an HD monitor but have read some issues about cineform and overlay with nvidia, is this still the case, thanks for the advice!

Like I said, I can't answer your question. I neither use Cineform, nor Premiere. Hopefully, someone else can answer your question.

No problem Perrone, anyone with any info on this?

Hey, Rich. Well, your question has a couple of layers and one is still in the speculative stage at best, so I apologize if things get a little convoluted.

If you want Mercury engine compatibility you have to get NVidia, no other choices right now. The engine as it stands now (remember it hasn't been released yet so things can change) is dependent on CUDA enabled GPUs. That's NVidia stuff. The issue you read about between Cineform and NVidia isn't a Cineform issue. It's NVidia's problem and I'd be shocked it this isn't about to be or hasn't already been fixed in a driver update.

The good news is that anything you buy new will work with the Windows 7/SC3/Cineform combo (assuming the NVidia issues have been fixed). What no one can really tell you is what CS5 and the Mercury engine will require upon its release. We can all speculate and guess and over-buy just in case, but we really don't know...

As for the HD monitor output, you may consider a separate AJA card for that (cs3 supported). It means an added expense, but I think you'll be much happier with the output signal. If you're using the HD monitor for critical color correction or even for Client presentation you'll appreciate the quality improvement and the expense will be worth it.

in regards to the overlay...i hear ATI/AMD is better at handling this

if you are using windows 7 you can run 2 different brands of graphics cards and get the best of both worlds....i.e. run a quadro and pick up a cheap ATI for overlay support

Thanks for all the help guys... much appreciated!, video card hardware is not my strong point. It seems no one is really too sure on NVidia anymore and overlay with CS3 and Win7 although it will likely be the only game in town for for CS5 GPU acceleration from what we have been told.

For a short term solution, are there any ATI cards anyone can recommend that will feed 2 dvi monitors and an HDTV, that works with cs3/cineform/windows7
(Radeon 575?)

The issue you read about between Cineform and NVidia isn't a Cineform issue. It's NVidia's problem and I'd be shocked it this isn't about to be or hasn't already been fixed in a driver update. I'm not sure how current my info is, but here's my understanding of the overlay issue, based on responses I've gotten from both NVidia and Cineform. I hope someone will clarify if I'm mistaken.

Overlay (full screen monitoring of the timeline to an external monitor during playback [and I may even have this definition wrong but that's how it's been explained to me]) works fine natively within Premiere with most any card at this point. Cineform's products break this and they have no plans to re-enable software overlay, relying on the card's hardware overlay to accomplish this. NVidia removed this ability from their cards in a driver/firmware "update" a while ago due to HDCP issues and they have stated they have no plans to re-enable hardware overlay, ever, in any 64-bit OS nor any version of Vista or later. So in a sense it is a Cineform issue and it won't be "fixed" because in NVidia's mind it is a feature, not a bug. If you search back a while among the threads I quoted their email to me in full that explains this.

If you still use an old 32-bit XP driver (now a couple of years old ) you can still have this under Cineform.

ATI cards still work but the Cineform guys aren't crazy about the way they handle color. And as noted above, the whole MPE stuff apparently won't apply to ATI cards (yet).

I bought a Quadro card a while ago that specifically had this ability because the GeForce cards didn't. When NVidia killed hardware overlay, I switched to an ATI and now have a very expensive Quadro sitting on my shelf.

Even though most ATI and NVidia cards these days have three outputs, I believe only two can be active at a time. I could be wrong about this.

Adam, Thanks so much for the detailed update, now the series of events that have occured with overlay (timeline monitoring) cineform and Nvidea make perfect sense.

NVidia removed this ability from their cards in a driver/firmware "update" a while ago due to HDCP issues and they have stated they have no plans to re-enable hardware overlay, ever, in any 64-bit OS nor any version of Vista or later. So in a sense it is a Cineform issue and it won't be "fixed" because in NVidia's mind it is a feature, not a bug.

I am officially shocked! Wow! What a classic example of passing the blame. If anyone, we should blame HDCP. It's caused all kinds of problems and headaches for developers.

Truth be told I'm an AMD/ATI guy. The fact that a large portion of CS5 performance is built around the Intel/NVidia platform irritates me.

Anyway, Adam's right about the outputs. Most cards will do a main DVI and then an either/or DVI/HDMI. There are quad cards out there built more around gaming that have 4 DVI, one being the DVI or HDMI variety. There are a few workstation cards with DVI or D-sub. No HDMI option on those. These are dual GPU cards usually. Lots of horsepower and the price to go along with it.

Anyway, Adam's right about the outputs. Most cards will do a main DVI and then an either/or DVI/HDMI. There are quad cards out there built more around gaming that have 4 DVI, one being the DVI or HDMI variety. There are a few workstation cards with DVI or D-sub. No HDMI option on those. These are dual GPU cards usually. Lots of horsepower and the price to go along with it.

I think mine does dual DVIs with the adapter, and also 1 or 2 display ports. I know it does at least three heads, just not sure about a fourth. But no doubt, you pay through the nose for it.

OK my wallet took the plunge and bought an Nvidia FX4800 in anticipation for CS5 - I hope thats not something I will regret knowing Adobe's track record.

I was looking into the Black Magic Intensity Card for monitoring timeline output to an HD monitor or HDTV but I am reading about possible issues with the X58 chipset (socket 1366) and Intel i7 processors. Is anyone running the BM intensity card with an ASUS P6X58D Premium mother board, i7 -960 by any chance with windows 7?

I had read that Nvidia disables PhysX support if an ATI card is detected so using an ATI card for timeline may not be the best option.

I probably would have waited for a final list before making a purchase. I think you will be safe with your choice. Adobe said that it would be compatible with CUDA enabled cards then they gave examples. However most of the nVidia 200 series is CUDA enabled. My guess is that they figure the others will work, but were giving examples. After all, they say a 285 is compatible but there is a 295 on the market. Are they seriously going to say a 295 wouldn't work?

A bit of an impetuous decision agree but I have had my eye on an FX4800 for a while and I picked one up cheap. I know the following cards seem to be good options for timeline monitoring:

AJA Xena-LHe
AJA LHi
Xena HS

As far as the following cards, is anyone using them with CS3, prospect HD and Win7 ?

Matrox MX02 Mini
AJA I/O Express

I was looking into the Black Magic Intensity Card for monitoring timeline output to an HD monitor or HDTV...

Has Cineform fixed the issue with playing out through Blackmagic stuff yet? I see you're already looking at the AJA stuff, but I started to wonder. It's amazing to me that Blackmagic can put together a card with the same capabilities as AJA's for half the price!

As far as the following cards, is anyone using them with CS3, prospect HD and Win7 ?

Matrox MX02 Mini
AJA I/O Express

I'm pretty sure both the Matrox and AJA boxes use hardware codecs. Neither list cineform as a supported codec although Matrox says they can support any codec supported by Adobe Premiere Pro. I'm leaning towards neither working with Cineform, but I don't have any real world experience with either product.

I can't speak to cineform+Premiere Pro+Matrox Mini but I can tell you about Premiere + Matrox Mini. I have one but used it for only two days due to these reasons:

1) 3-5 second delay when switching from Source to Program/Timeline and vice versa. I couldn't stand having to wait.

2) Program window became useless - I like to adjust size and position but this is not possible with the Matrox. If I remember correctly, the Program window was also slow and buggy.

3) You MUST use Matrox's presets for sequences in order to use the Mini, and the available presets are limited (I don't think the Mini supports 24p). Furthermore, these sequences don't work on a computer WITHOUT a Matrox MXO/MXO2/Mini connected. After Effects also crashed unless I had the Mini powered on.

Something I just remembered: Matrox does NOT support CS3 anymore.

I have researched Aja/BM/Matrox for a suitable product that does not limit me. During that research, I remember reading about many people having issues with the BM Intensity.

If I were to get one, I'd look at Aja (I think "Kona" is their Windows version).

Can I ask why you still want to use Cineform when you most likely have a powerful PC? I recently looked into Cineform but it doesn't support Nanoflash/XDR files.

To get around the overlay issue, can't you just move the Program window to the HDTV. This is what I did after the Mini didn't work out (I got an Eizo CG243W for 'monitoring', which is hardware calibrated - this solves my problem of Premiere not being color managed)

You could do that -- and that's what Cineform has recommended -- but it isn't in any way an acceptable solution to me. You're then just looking at a PC display on a TV screen with all the windows stuff around it. It in no way resembles full screen TV viewing.

Steve, my PC is spec'd out with multiple SSD raid 0 arrays, i7 cpu 12 gb ddr3 etc but I am using Cineform as due to its rock solid lossless format qualities and also now for First Light color correction - it's really worth it for this alone.

Getting back to timeline monitoring for a moment, some more info - maybe there is a list of supported cards somewhere and their levels of support within CS3 and Cineform?

AJA Xena-LHe
AJA LHi
Xena HS
(These cards all seem to be cineform approved and will work in cs3 with cineform template)

Matrox MX02 Mini - Only works with Matrox template? (also glitchy - users have reported)
AJA I/O Express - (no real info on this card - probably won't fly though)

Any other takers for timeline monitoring?

but I am using Cineform as due to its rock solid lossless format qualities and also now for First Light color correction - it's really worth it for this alone.

Why do people have the impression that Cineform is lossless? It's an excellent codec to be sure, but it is most certainly not lossless.

Without getting into the techno bable or off topic of the thread, I think "Visually Lossless" is the correct term, yes lossy to some degree but a good compromise.

Cineform added support for AJA I/O Express in december (Build 233) just wondering is anyone using this interface with cs3 and first light?

Steve, thanks for the advice on the Matrox Mini it sounds like it could be trouble for now :)

As far as other solutions go, here is another interesting product - Moto HDX-SDI
Unsure what if any cineform support there would be for this device? - Looks like it only works with cs4.

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From website - MOTU.com - HDX-SDI Overview (http://www.motu.com/video-products/hdx-sdi)

"If you prefer to edit more conveniently at a lower data rate, use Apple ProRes, ProRes HQ or the codec of your choice in Apple Final Cut Pro or Adobe Premiere Pro. Because the HDX-SDI delivers 10-bit uncompressed video to the computer, you are not limited to a particular codec and are instead free to go with the host-based workflow of your choice, including many popular file-based formats now supported by today’s video editing software.)

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I have had my eye on an FX4800 for a while and I picked one up cheap.

what is cheap here , and where did you buy it from?

I notice that thet sells around 1k USD at ebay ( Norwegian prices are about x 3-4 though )

i would better interested to know if Cineform will use CUDA.
Since Adobe Premiere CS5 is heading largely to to let the graphic card do the calculation (for AVCHD at least , it will be mandatory to have such an expensive card.
Even if you do not plan to shoot/work AVCHD, there are chance that you will need to export to AVCHD one day or later.
So it would be nice if we can give some value to that expense by using it with other product (like cineform), to have additional speed. I am pretty sure that part of the calculation done in Cineform could benefit CUDA.

Cheap being $725 on eBay -

$725 - WOW, thats a great price.

For monitoring: have you looked into the Blackmagic Decklink HD Extreme?

Thanks Steve, the card was a swift purchase!
As far as BM decklink and BM intensity, unless I am wrong Cineform does not yet support them for timeline output using cineforms preset in cs3 or 4. Although using BM preset it works.

Perhaps not using the cineform preset is not such a big deal anyway given todays hardware standards. My system could handle it but I am so used to using cineform presets in cs3, I am worried there could be some slow down somewhere + cineform effects & color won't work on the timeline I guess, although I do most color in first light, some shot by shot tweaks I make in premier, how about renders out and additional time to render etc?

I sent an email to Moto about their new HDX-SDI breakout box interface that supports timeline monitoring and this is what I got back.

Q: Do you have Windows 7 64 bit drivers?
A: Not yet. Win 7 drivers are currently in development and are due to be released within the next month or so.

Q: Will this work with Premier CS4 and Cineform codec, using the cineform templates within
CS4 and provide timeline monitoring to HDTV?
A: Premier support yes. Cineform support maybe.

Q: Any plans for Premier CS3 compatibility, and how about CS5 (rumored to be released out
in April)?
A: CS5 support yes. Backwards compatibility for CS3 maybe.

Q: Will this work with any Intel i7, Asus x58 (lg1366) chipset board
Should be no problems.

A: Any issues running this with other video cards (Nvidia FX4800?)
Should be no problems.

I'm running win 7 64bit 4ghz i7 6gb ram and gtx285 2gb Cuda graphics - HDMI output from time line is great with everything from RED to SD.

There is a HUGE BUT:

There is a problem with Nvidia cards which creates "tearing" or slicing on the output, as there is no way to syncronise the cards refresh function to occur during the vertical blanking period of the monitor. You therefore get these horrid random errors, mostly seen during rapid panning or horizontal movements within your footage, where sections of your output frame are horizontally offset in blocks.

This is a well known problem for gamers too, but most off-putting when your client wants to his or her pristine 4K RED clips in all there glory in real time.

I'm still not sure whether the more expensive Quadro cards produce perfect output from the timeline or not - I do know that you can buy from Nvidia, a G-Sync card to externally lock systems together, and they do offer a V Sync setting too, I wonder if its as ineffective as the V sync settings in the Nvidia control panel?

Also, if I spend a whopping £6000 on an FX5800 4gb HD SDI card, will I still get the same problem, I wish I knew someone who had a card lying around, cos it sure says nothing about this on the Nvidia website, nor have they responded to my detailed request through the usual support route, all I got was an automated reply about checking my interlace settings - rubbish indeed !!

Anyone with any practical solutions, ideas or experiences, please reply, I gota know what to do here, as I need clean RED from Prem Pro somehow - and who's to say that a Quadro card with CS5 and Mercury will actually work properly either.

Paul