If I have to drive 30 minutes to a clients office for a consultation fee for their video what should it cost them or should it cost at all?

$50?

How do you bill it, right there on the spot, or with the potential work you would be doing IF you get the job?

OR do you not even mention it and just add $50 to any jobs that you have to go and do a consultation with?

I know for alot of the corporate jobs I have taken, the consulatation could have been done on the phone, except I am sure the client would like to meet us in person too.

If this is consultation to win a potential client I would consider it marketing and that should be rolled into your overall rates. If this were truly consulting for a project you would have already had the fee worked out and the client would have agreed to it. Then it should only be a matter of when it gets billed.

Garrett

What about consultation for past clients?
They already know you, and they want to "meet" 30-60 minutes away for something new. Usually after such meetings in the past I felt that I could have easily discussed things on the phone, saving myself 1-2 hours of driving (both ways).

For new clients, it seems reasonable I guess.

For existing clients I generally would do any discussions regarding new projects over the phone. Then if they want to move forward I would build that into the rate for the project. But you still have to considered that you'll have spent a 1/2 hour or hour with them on the phone to secure the new project.

I come from a consulting engineering background so I look at it in this way:

I have a certain overhead cost that includes a budget for marketing/business development. That amount goes into my overall calculation for my hourly rates which are then multiplied by my estimated hours for producing a project. So, the cost of doing the BD is already being charged.

This is basically how all consulting businesses that I've been involved with operate. Until you secure the project it is marketing. And you should be giving away work, including preproduction work, before the client has agreed to pay for that work and you have an agreed amount that they will be paying.

Just my approach and other may do it completely differently.

Garrett

I see. I had a client who kept insisting I come out and I kept declining saying we could talk on the phone. I never got the job, but they liked my past work for them.

I only do free consultations with wedding couples in my area of town, or if i am in a area the same day I am willing to meet a new client free there.

I do not like to "work" on plans for a project really until I am sure that I am hired.

I agree with Garrett other than the fact I keep "preproduction WORK" to an absolute minimum until the prospect has become a client (ie. I'll talk in generalities about what we can do for them but won't give away any "secrets or concepts" until I'm "on the payroll").

Marketing YOUR business shouldn't be a cost to the client. But watch out for clients that want WAY too much face-to-face time if you can't bill for it. When meeting with clients for evaluation meetings etc. I charge my Producer hourly rate, plus REASONABLE location expenses (parking etc.) but pitches are NORMALLY at my expense (given that I have built in a certain amount of time INTO my billing structure to ensure that I get paid what I need to to survive).

yes, keeping all unpaid work to a minimum is a good idea.

So the time for "free" meetings should be factored into the hourly or day rate for projects then and watch out for "those" certain type of clients who need to much face to face time.

I see the odd consultation as "built in" to my overhead. If I was to spend 40 hours a week AT work, I wouldn't anticipate being BILLABLE for all 40 hours, even though I AM working... Again, this is why I am opposed to the $25/hr camp that some propose.

So your saying bill by the project then and not hourly?
Thats actually what I usually do. Usually make more with a project rate then day or hourly.
Of course it does nt always work out too though.

I bill shooting by the day or half day and editing by the hour. This is pretty common.

You will almost ALWAYS get "screwed" with project pricing IF you are doing long form projects UNLESS you can command such a premium for your services that even if clients go WAY over the expected time, you're still in good shape.

That makes sense.....actually billing editing by the hour seems like a good idea, maybe give an estimate and then bill for it. whats your hourly editing rate?

Unless I'm hired strictly as a "consultant" I'll sit with a client for up to an hour or so to make sure we're both on the same page. That's part of running the business. the clients I've got wouldn's sit still for a consultation fee. I've gotten work and haven't gotten work forom some clients after the "consultation" but if I'm not out there talking to them someone else will.
Like Shaun, I bill shooting by the day and editing by the hour.

Silas, you do have to assess at what point a client needs "too" much attention to be worth it. If they insist that you meet face to face for everything and they are not willing to pay for all that face time, you may need to decide whether it is more costly to be working with that client.

As far as how to bill a project, I give them a set to produce the project and in the agreement I have all of the assumptions listed, which do include an assumed number of meetings. I have never had to strictly enforce the number of meetings and admit that I do have to meet a couple more times for each project but it does make the client thing twice before calling me to meet over something that could easily be handled on the phone.

Shaun, its not so much that I have any "secrets" that I'm not willing to divulge. I've just been burned before. I'm willing to put down some ideas and work through some details but I learned quickly that giving too much information can backfire.

For one of my first pitches I had prepared for (probably over prepared), I worked out a great concept for a local "Boot Camp" trainer. I met with him for about an hour and a half and convinced him that the best thing he could do to raise his conversion rate was to put a good video on his website showing what his program was about and show it in action. We talked a lot about what could be done in the video and what some very good ways were to get more people to follow up and contact him to join. We left the meeting with him figuring out when he could financially best get the video made. So a couple of months go by and I'd been doing my usual follow-up calls and emails to try to keep everything on track. So months later I look at his web site and he has this horribly made video up there trying to execute all of the concepts we talked about. It was pretty obvious that he or one of his friends just took a handycam and shot a bunch of crap footage, then took iMovie or something and just slapped it together.

So now I do my homework, work on the concepts in preparation for a pitch, but am careful to gauge how much info to give away. I try to figure out how much is enough to wet their appetites, just enough to make them want to at least hire me for more concept development. I'm sure there have been projects that I still go over on and some that I could have won if I gave out more details but, live and learn.

Garrett

Don,
Do you factor in this time in your work somehow?

It seems like you could waste a lot of valuable driving time by driving to meetings that may not work out. (Some clients just want to find out information, not book you).

I like to make sure we are on the same page but for a "meeting" I like phone better.
And if they really want me to come in and meet or have a consultation, I am fine with it free if its in a nearby part of town. But if its over 15 minutes away I figure I need to add something to the price of the project to cover my gas and time.

Garret,
It it unreasonable, in your opinion, that if the project is worth it to them, they can come to the area of town I am in? (Just like you take your car to a service station, or you go to a store).

Of course, if its a huge client, like the goverment or something, then some exceptions are fine.

But in general for small businesses, restarurants, event planners, speakers, training video people.....

they can come to the area of town I am in? (Just like you take your car to a service station, or you go to a store).

I think it depends on whether you operate a "store front".

I USED to operate one and had clients come to ME because then I could "show them around and samples of my work". Now I work out of a segregated section of my home and don't have clients in. My choice so now I am the one who is mobile.

Don and Shaun,

For projects where you are hired for concept to final delivery do you still bill editing time separately by the hour? I maybe stuck in my old consulting mentality but I could see billing an editing job by the hour (which I do) but for complete projects I figure I can control the process enough to give a good estimate for the completed project.

I may need to rethink how I set up my agreements??

Garrett

Garret,
It it unreasonable, in your opinion, that if the project is worth it to them, they can come to the area of town I am in? (Just like you take your car to a service station, or you go to a store).

Of course, if its a huge client, like the goverment or something, then some exceptions are fine.

But in general for small businesses, restarurants, event planners, speakers, training video people.....

Silas,

I look at it as part of the cost to doing business. If I were to be looking to hire a second camera operator for a shoot, I wouldn't expect that I would have to go to them to discuss the possible business opportunity. I'd expect that they would be willing to come to meet me at my place or a place of my choosing and I would not expect to have to pay them to meet with me. This is were having a certain budget allocated for marketing is important and knowing how to best use that budget. Again, it's part of my overhead cost or the cost of me doing business. I have to manage that cost or my overhead rate will go too high and I'll have to charge too much to make it viable for me to be in business.

I don't think that it would be horrible if all or even some of my potential clients would pay up front to basically interview me to see if they wanted to hire me. But, unfortunately my name isn't Cameron or Lasseter so I don't have the cred to ask people for money upfront. Maybe some day after I make that block buster movie....
;)

Garrett

For projects where you are hired for concept to final delivery do you still bill editing time separately by the hour? I maybe stuck in my old consulting mentality but I could see billing an editing job by the hour (which I do) but for complete projects I figure I can control the process enough to give a good estimate for the completed project.

I tried this and found that the mentality of most clients is "I'm paying to get EXACTLY what I want so 'let's try some things' " which means often ignoring the good advice they are being given solely because now they have the "right" to see if that idea we said wouldn't work, really wouldn't.

My proposals and budgets state "this is what we normally could expect the project to run, based on our extensive experience. Yours could come in cheaper if we don't need all the revisions that we anticipated but it could also go WAY over if the scope changes or additional input that wasn't discussed at the onset is suddenly required", which often happens in a corporate environment - the person you are dealing with may not actually be able to sign off on the project once Corporate Communications gets hold of it.

My OPINION is that line item budgets protect BOTH parties. Of course, there are those that disagree. You know YOUR clients and business model and I know mine. That way, if I tell the client we are running out of money, I can show WHERE we are facing overages (and it is USUALLY in the client evaluation/changes area - after 12 years, I've gotten pretty good at estimating how long something will take and will usually "make good" on my budget IF I'm the one "at fault" for missing something or wanting to go above and beyond).

Thanks Shaun,

I think we're close to the way of preparing our agreements. I do break down budgets by different tasks and milestones. that way I can also be payed by the milestones as they are completed. I have assumptions so that there is a basis for out of scope work but do you actually put hours in your agreements?

Thanks,
Garrett

I do list hours and keep pretty accurate track of edit hours during the process - I have an edit log that I use to keep track of time on project, breaks, WHAT I'm working on during any given session... and I HAVE had to use it to prove that I really WAS expending the hours on more than one occasion so I'm unlikely to change that any time soon.

Of course, I SHOULD point out that I have one client that gets a "per commercial" price because we have mutual respect AND I have complete control over process and concept so overages ARE my fault in 99.9% of cases.

Thanks Shaun,

If you don't mind telling, what is your average amount of hours spent editing on say a project with a running time about 10 minutes? Also, do you estimate more hours if the client provides footage to you and you just do editing?

Thanks,
Garrett

ASSUMING a lot of things, including quality is intended for broadcast or similar AND it is my typical "character driven" style whereby clips are lifted from interviews for "narration" AND I am the one performing the story edit as opposed to working from a script or EDL, I'd usual plan for 50 hours of edit (5 ish hours per finished minute for long form IN MY WORLD is pretty accurate, including client revisions). Having said that, that number is only a rough estimate based on having ZERO idea what I'm facing. 2 minute talking heads with little or no coverage... SIGNIFICANTLY less...

And it MAY take me longer to edit if the client provides JUST the footage but sometimes it goes WAY faster because I don't have to try to get inside someone else's head.

Just wondered while we are talking about fees.

under 24 hour notice?

over 24 hour notice?

calling to postpone right before the appointment (for a short or long job)

Thanks Shaun,

That sounds pretty much what I'm looking at for a starting point in estimates. It's always good to check sanity levels.

Silas, for anything that becomes a "rush" job gets a premium charge. It really depends on my availability. If I have the bandwidth I'd take a project that's a rush with little extra charge especially if they are a good repeat client.

If the client has to postpone I would consider charging small fee and have them reschedule. But I have to admit this has very rarely happened to me and it was for very good reasons so I just tried to reschedule. My agreements are written so I get partial payment upfront so usually the clients aren't going to flake.

Garrett

OK Lets see. I'll start with Garrett first. Actually most of my billing is and has been by the project and since there's always room for jello, (at least in my head) I figure in everything I know I need to complete the job and then MAY or MAY NOT add a fudge factor just in case. As you know there are so many variables. What I thought was going to be a 10 hour edit job really ends up being 12 or 13 and not the fault of the client. I missed something on gear rental, I forgot to add enough for VO, dumb stuff on my part. Luckily it doesn't happen often, but we all make mistakes or have that project from hell. I have worked with clients in the past that wanted to know my hourly rate so they could fact check me when I gave them the proposal which would be a complete project figure. What they forget is that the rate is for ME as a camera operator or with 1 basic camera kit ONLY. No rental, no VO, no graphics no nuthin'.

Silas, in this business you can not exppect to get every job you bid on and with the larger companies they generally expect a bid process and may very well have 3 or 4 or more vendors come in to bid on the job. Many times you work with people that are very knowledgable and have packets at the ready for you with all of the RIGHT information so you can make an informed bid, many don't have a clue but in any case to me it is not a waste of time to pursue these bids. If I spendt 2 hours a week meeting with potential clients, drove 75 miles round trip to meet with them (90 minutes round trip), paid the gas and tolls, bought lunch, smoked a cigar and gave the potential client a business card, did this 5 times a week (which I don't) 4 weeks a month (which I don't) 52 weeks a year (which I don't) and only booked 20% of the work it would 1) prove to me I'm bad at selling me and 2) would more than pay me for all the other time I "wasted" on the other potential clients.
I'll give a quick example. I once did one of these "consults"-there were 3 other guys bidding. After a bit of time I got a call from the company. Can I help them out? They told me they gave the contract to someone else and he proved to be unreliable and was not able to perform as he quoted. I looked at my bid, and told them to add 10% becaue my rates had gone up since they rejected my bid. They got a bit huffy, I said fine call me when you're serious. (I swear I did, that's my personality) Next day they called me and agreed to my new terms. Guess how long I did work for them. Almost 10 years. Did I have to meet with them everytime? Nope and most time over the years it was a phone call. Other times we'd meet on the golf course, sometimes for a meal but it became a pleasant "partnership" and BTW, it paid me a lot of money over the years.
It's only a waste if you have no interest in doing the work.
Hope that answers everyone questions.

Thanks Don,

Always good to hear form so many seasoned veterans.

Garrett

consulting is such a funny thing. It has so many meanings.

I do "consulting" for several video shooters and editors as well as audio "consulting" for several voice talents who I've built studios for. Essentially this is training so I charge a fee or barter for their skills. I have a fantastic pool of people with various skills that I can call on if I need help and I know they know what they're doing 'cause I trained them!

Consulting for businesses is very different from bidding on a project or trying to add them as a client. Consulting is a billable service, either retainer or hourly. Basically they want my knowledge and that costs money.

Having to meet with a potential client or write up a bid or spend time on the phone is marketing which is a business expense.

Having been a real estate agent for several years (in a past life) I can't tell you how many miles and hours I spent with potential clients trying to win their business. (well actually I can because travel is tax deductible) But it's all free for the client until they sign the contract. Part of doing business.

Putting things in writing is something I learned from real estate biz and it's saved my arse many times. Doesn't have to be fancy, just concise and precise.


For me, big projects are generally a single fee (carefully concocted with built in fudge factor) with the half up front clause, balance upon delivery of final. Smaller projects are menu style with day rates for shooting, hourly for editing, and separate fees for motion graphics/voiceover/music/etc.

Estimating is such an interesting and important process critical to getting work and making it profitable. Shaun and Garrett make good points imo.

On meetings ; personally I ask lots of questions right away and try to judge the potential of every job and that drives what I will do prior to securing it. Its a spectrum; on one end I try to limit things to a phone call and an emailed estimate for projects that look small, low budget or unlikely. At the other end of things if a job is large, high budget and has real solid potential then its worth a greater investment of my time with meetings, calls, emails. I do reserve lunches for existing clients though. Also I am very wary of doing much of any pre production work before a deal has been struck.

On estimates ; I have adopted and used with much success a hybrid approach between bidding it by the project vs by the hour. Hourly rate estimates tend to ignore the intangebles I bring - my story ideas, my understanding of branding, my vision, etc. Hourly only bids can lead clients into thinking that they can compare three vendors by rates alone and that all other things are equal which is rarely true especially with higher end work. An even bigger issue with hourly rates is that maybe you can do a job in half the time as another vendor and yet with the same quality. Hourly rates can have the effect of penalizing you because of your experience and proficiency because the client is looking solely at hourly rates without the other component of total hours required to do the job.

Bidding solely by the project has pitfalls of its own though. As projects progress often complexities and additional work are discovered by everyone or added by the client. A project bid can lead the vendor to eat all those extra hours / expenses because he bid X for the project, which is not good business of course.

I estimate the entire project but with line items for expenses like crew or rentals as well as line items for fees such as shooting or editing. That way a client has both the all important bottom line number as well as a glimpse into the details of how that number came to be.

The hybrid approach shows the client where the money goes. In the process it reminds them that much of it is simply a flow thru expense vs it all going in my pocket. It also allows them to judge for themselves the cost vs benefit of an action they are considering like adding a day of shooting. I also include a detailed project description including how many hours we have allocated for each task like shooting or editing. Mission creep is always a danger with any job so this detailed description helps everyone know when we are going beyond the original scope (and cost) outlined.

Like Shaun I include a boiler plate statement that while our invoices usually closely match our estimates, the client will be billed based on actual hours invested and actual expenses once the job is complete. If we can save time or expenses it will be reflected. If the scope is ramped up that too will be reflected.

I also spell out exactly what the deliverables are. I have found this to be critical in preventing the clients from saying that they thought xy and z were included when most likely they just had not thought of it at the onset. It also keeps everyone working toward the same goal (getting the footage the 30 second spot, period) vs "hey lets shoot some extra B roll for our archives while you are here".

I also include a "what to expect / how we work / industry norms" white paper with each estimate. It covers stuff like "we need a sit down lunch for the crew sometime between 11 and 1 each day" or "we work 8 hour days, beyond that we charge over time" etc. What mine says isn't important but laying out how it will go is again critical in my experience - otherwise its 12 hour days with no lunches which is a silly situation that being proactive can prevent.

How we get paid is another interesting area that I am currently playing with. I am experimenting with specifying that we get half on the first day of shooting and the other half upon delivery of the finished product, which I do in person. I am hopeful that this will fly but we'll see. My experience has been that if you provide a vision / service / skill set that clients really want and if you articulate in advance how you work that you can have a smooth process, hopefully that includes this payment schedule. So far so good but like everything else regarding selling and estimating jobs its a constantly evolving experiment - one that benefits from comparing notes with peers you respect.

Thanks to all participating in this discussion.

I also include a "what to expect / how we work / industry norms" white paper with each estimate. It covers stuff like "we need a sit down lunch for the crew sometime between 11 and 1 each day" or "we work 8 hour days, beyond that we charge over time" etc. What mine says isn't important but laying out how it will go is again critical in my experience - otherwise its 12 hour days with no lunches which is a silly situation that being proactive can prevent.

Thanks so much for the input, Greg. Great stuff. And you are right - "little" things like coffee, meal and washroom breaks(!) CAN bit you in the bottom with SOME "clients" if terms AREN'T discussed or laid out. I once had a client ask if we could shorten a meal break to get more work in if he catered in sandwiches. I talked to the crew and we were amenable so that we could get a long day "in the can" before we ran into losing our light. I thought we'd be getting subs or something. The PA went and bought a loaf of bread and a jar of peanut butter!

Peanut butter, too funny. My experience has been that even good people will act goofy once they are the client, if I let them. So I guess its all about being proactive and leading clients to do the right thing. We usually request that they have carry out menus for us to review at 10am. They typically have them around anyway, we peruse, order and lunch is there by midday. it sounds anal to spec small stuff like that but without it stuff happens, or in this case doesn't happen. Much better to have a happy crew that feels respected, and full :)

Peanut butter, too funny.

AND it was No Name! And the bread was store brand Cracker Thin White...