I'm starting a project this week for a new client who wants to edit my EX-1 footage themselves. I'm still trying to get all the details as to exactly what they will be editing my footage with (Avid, FCP, ?), but I need to know exactly what I should give them in addition to the BPAV folders. Would Clip Browser alone allow them to open and re-wrap the files or do I need to include anything else? I'm assuming that if they are using FCP, I'd need to include XDCAM Transfer as well, no?

It really depends on what you're agreement with the client is, but for clients that want to edit raw footage themselves I usually agree to give them either just the straight copy off of the SxS using Copy All in Clip Browser or MXF files from Clip Browser. If my agreement calls for it I'll provide QT files.

I don't include any programs that they may need to convert files. If they are going to be doing post I leave it up to them to acquire any conversion programs they need.

Garrett

Garrett, in a perfect world, I'd agree with you completely. But since I still don't know what their editing capabilities are as of today (shoot starts tomorrow), I need to be sure that no matter what happens, they will be able to get these files open without a transatlantic phone call screaming at me as to why they can't view the files.

Adding to your thoughts, if they wanted me to give them .mov files instead of the BPAV's, I've run into issues before where I've given a client a short, converted .mov file and they weren't able to open it. They'd usually get some warning about a codec missing or a similar cryptic messaage. When I convert a file to .mov using Clip Browser, is it "generic"? By that I mean is it still using an XDCAM codec that they probably won't have or would it be openable by ANY decent editing program?

Oops, scratch that last thought. I failed to realize that there is NO option to export/rewrap files from Clip Browser to .mov....only MXF or similar. So, if they wanted .mov's, I'd have to import into FCP via XDCAM Transfer and then do a Batch Export to .mov. But what codec would that carry with it?

So, if they wanted .mov's, I'd have to import into FCP via XDCAM Transfer and then do a Batch Export to .mov. But what codec would that carry with it?

That is the biggest problem, they are all really just wrappers that contain files with a variety of codecs. Most problems with with FCP transfers occur because the QT files are created with the AIC which are unusable to anyone not on a Mac.

The only way to be sure they will be able to open the files will be for you to find out what NLE they will be using and to do some very short trial conversions to make sure they can use the files. If you are beginning shooting tomorrow you should be able to get some info from them on their system before having to convert any of the files. This is why it's really important to have all the technical details worked out as soon as possible and write the file delivery specs into your agreement.

In any case I still would not provide them with any conversion software. At most I would provide them with the program names an possibly links to where they could download them.

Garrett

Thanks for that, Garrett. I've been trying to get the info for nearly a week and have yet to get a clear answer. Keep your fingers crossed for me on this one! ;-)

I'd just give them the BPAV. If they're editing it themselves they should do their own re-wrap or conversion. Yes, I've gotten the follow up phone calls too and I tell the client that a current version of Avid, FCP, Premiere, Vegas, Edius can handle the files.

If they don't have a professional editor that can grasp that then they should hire you. Of course I'll offer to do a re-wrap or conversion for the client but that's another paid service.

I've had clients call me and say the editor can't handle the files because they're not AVIs or MPEGs and I tell them that's not enough info since AVI is a wrapper and actually XDCAM is certainly MPEG, MPEG2 in an MP4 wrapper. Being on Windows is certainly not a "limitation" in format as many here will attest to. Avid, Premiere, Vegas, Edius all run on Windows and all have a means to ingest the files.

Hey Dave, I really feel for you. There are a lot of people out there that think it's simple to just take some footage and edit it and create a DVD. Then, when they can't figure it out they immediately assume that there is something wrong with the files they received.

If they can't get you the specs on the NLE that will be used they can't expect you to be able to guarantee that the files will be able to just be pulled into their NLE.

Garrett

Dave, I shoot with my EX3 for multiple clients. One edits on Vegas, one on Avid, and another on FCP. As far as I know each system as it's own plug in to handle XDCam EX files. At the end of the shoot I copy the folders to hard drives and off they go. Just give them the BPAV folder, they should be able to do the rest.

Here is a link to Sony's XDCAM EX Workflow Videos and Documents page:

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/micro-xdcamexsite/resource.demos.bbsccms-assets-micro-hdtapelessworkflow-solutions-XDCAMEXWorkflowAssets.shtml

It gives tutorials and work flows for every NLE. You can pass the link along to your client.

This week I am actually going to FTP a BPAV file to my client. It's a small file, only 2.7GB, but to big to email or use You Send It. Should be interesting to see if it works.

Reminds me of a shoot that my wife did. They wanted her to shoot it and she signed a contract and was hired to shoot it. They also said they wanted her to edit it as well (no contract for the edit gig tho so she figured that was BS). Well... After the shoot, they said they were going with a different editor (a friend of the producer). The wife says No prob - She offloads the SxS cards onto a laptop that the producer had and lets them know that it is all XDCAM EX footage and to let their editor know that so they can deal with it properly.

About 2 days later, the producer calls and says the editor cannot read the files. The wife explains (again) that they are XDCAM-EX and to just let the editor know that and they should be able to figure it out from there...

Next call - The editor is running FCP 4.5 on a G4 mac. So the wife then offers to transcode them for a fee to ProRes or whatever they want. Now the producer is pissed off saying that we are trying to gouge them and that we knew that would happen - Or that we had done something to the footage to MAKE them come back to us and pay us more money.

So the wife tells them "Hey - You have the footage, I told you it is XDCAM EX, there are plenty of places here in town that will transcode it for you, besides us. I suggest you go and find one of them. Have a nice day.

Really sucks when that kind of thing happens. Basically if someone accuses her of things like that, she just tells them to go elsewhere - But it is a bridge burned in some respect...

The editor is running FCP 4.5 on a G4 mac.

The funny thing is the editor is probably billing out at $100 - $200 an hour :)

Shaughan, THAT scenario is the one that I envision....unfortunately. It's possible that they will figure this out, but I keep getting small clues in email exchanges with them that they don't know enough to tell me what they want. If I could speak with their editor, I think I could head off most of these potential problems.

Just give client 2 prices, in their contract:

1. BPAV folder on their drive, I sometimes sell them a usb/FW/esata drive or DVD's (this can be Bluray if they can deal with them) as part of the contract, or they provide their own, I will also rent out drives. With instructions and download links.

2. The format of their choice transcoded on a drive or FTP'd, for an additional fee. I charge $100 per hr of material transcoded.

Very simple, if they choose option 1, and then call you and say they can't deal with it. They already know of option 2. It is in the contract.

Olof has the right idea.

BTW this issue is NOT specific to the EX series. There are many stories where people hand an HDV tape to the client and then they complain that their DV deck or camera can't play it back. Depending on the HDV format their HDV deck may not play it back either. To me that's a far greater hell.

ANY PROFESSIONAL on any platform can find a way to re-wrap or transcode the EX files and even if they had to go out and buy a plugin, encoding software, upgrade their NLE, all that is likely less than buying a deck.

I have no sympathy for clients who insist on hiring editors who don't know how to do this. Transcoding is a service I offer but certainly isn't needed if they have a genuine professional editor with a modern NLE. I'm also a professional editor so they can avail themselves to either transcoding or editing.

Shaughan, I had a somewhat similar but less hostile situation.

I recently did a 4 camera shoot of a performance for a client. Actually is was three Canon Vixia and one EX1. The client claimed they were 99% certain they were going to edit with me. Never believe that as it's usually a game to get a better price. Don't fall for it. I charge separately for production, dubbing, post production and if they want to firm an edit they can pay a deposit.

I gave them the raw video in their respective folders on a hard drive they bought.

I have them three options: A dub in which all four cameras were synced with time code burn in. This was most expensive as it's essentially requires me to do the first part of the edit. They could pay for that alone though so if they wanted to edit elsewhere they'd have a visual guide and the ability to pick shots. If they wanted to edit with me, that part was paid for. I got no response on this offer.

The second option was to encode each camera video so they could view it on whatever with Quicktime or Windows Media Player. This was obviously less expensive since it didn't require my syncing the video. I got no response on this offer.

The third option was to transcode to whatever they needed although they could do this on their own with a professional editor since such editor would do what was needed to input the video. I got no response on this offer.

I did get a phone call saying they couldn't import the video since it wasn't AVIs or MPEGs. Since it was clear the "99% certain they were going to edit with me" was BS I gave them a very short and professional response. I list the current versions of NLEs that professional editors use and stated all had the means to import the video. I got no response to this. I suspect they either figured it out or are otherwise struggling with this and can't afford to pay for my dubbing or post services.

I wont treat an ignorant client hostilely. I give them the options (just as Olof suggests). If they're not going to pay for additional services I just give them very basic info if they need to look for a professionally competent editor. "These are the NLEs such editor should be using as they all handle the video import." This simply puts in back into their "court" to decide what to do.

I'm starting a project this week for a new client who wants to edit my EX-1 footage themselves.

But since I still don't know what their editing capabilities are as of today (shoot starts tomorrow),

Dave,

I see it this way. Your clue. Your new client wants to edit the EX footage themselves. They told you this in advance of the shoot. That tells me that they "know" what they are doing. (you know - professional amateurs as I call them). Then by virtue of that, all you had to ask was which flavour of EX do you wish me to record for you? The rest is up to them. It is their responsibility to carry on as they pay you for your shooting services and that's it.

What their editing capabilities are is really of no concern as you are not being paid to be involved in that part of the production and as they wanted EX footage, you have to accept that they can competently take it from there.

I have had a few jobs (not terribly many) like that and all went perfectly well. I shot, transferred the SxS cards via CB onto their external HD and they were happy clients. No other discussion took place except for payment talk.

Hope all goes better than planned for you.

Well, I spoke to the shop who will be doing the edit. They are using an Avid DS Nitris edit system on Windows XP 64bit and they are saying that this software can't import my EX files directly. I'm not an Avid guy so I don't know what the story is with that program. Here are the options they offered....can you guess which one I'm going to use? ;-)_

<quote>
Our Avid DS Nitris edit system does not support direct import of XDCAM EX files, however we have two options

1) You send us the raw footage on the original SxS PRO memory cards and we rent a Sony PMWEX30 XDCAM EX Memory player/recorder, play back the footage and capture it in real time to our edit system and ship you back the cards.
2) Or you sends us the raw footage on Disc or hard-drive and we import the files into an Avid media composer and transcode the files into a format that the Nitris will recognize.
<end quote>

I think this will work out okay and I want to thank everybody who offered advice. You guys are the best.

I wont treat an ignorant client hostilely. I give them the options (just as Olof suggests). If they're not going to pay for additional services I just give them very basic info if they need to look for a professionally competent editor. "These are the NLEs such editor should be using as they all handle the video import." This simply puts in back into their "court" to decide what to do.

The wife never gets hostile with clients. In this instance, after they accused her of trying to gouge them, she politely told them that she did not want their business...

She is a realist - She figured that the "We want you to edit it" comment was worth the paper it was written on. No surprises there :)

Yes if a client accused me of price gouging, I'd send them packing too. They're always free to find someone less expensive.

The wife never gets hostile with clients. In this instance, after they accused her of trying to gouge them, she politely told them that she did not want their business...

Our Avid DS Nitris edit system does not support direct import of XDCAM EX files, however we have two options
I wouldn't be surprised if an update might fix this but given the possible cost of Avid upgrades . . .
Hard drive to Media Composer seems like the best bet.

1) You send us the raw footage on the original SxS PRO memory cards and we rent a Sony PMWEX30 XDCAM EX Memory player/recorder, play back the footage and capture it in real time to our edit system and ship you back the cards.
2) Or you sends us the raw footage on Disc or hard-drive and we import the files into an Avid media composer and transcode the files into a format that the Nitris will recognize.
<end quote>

I think this will work out okay and I want to thank everybody who offered advice. You guys are the best.

2. On THEIR hard drive. The way they should have worked it out in advance of asking you to shoot EX and not having to involve you at all!!!

Cheers

Bit late but you could always shoot HDV on the EX1 and then dub to tape. People don't really argue with tape which is one of the reasons why I'm hanging on to my Z1. Rather use that than potentially lose a job because the "professional amateur" gets confused by tapeless media.