I plan to buy either a Sony Z1 or a PMW EX1r

either way I will handle mpeg 2 files.

I have a relatively simple laptop to edit

can someone suggest a good software

the requisites are
1) stable
2) not too complicated but still allowing for a few "extra" tricks
3) working with both PC and MAC

I saw good reviews of Vegas, not sure which version though...

It depends what you mean by working with PC and MAC. IF you really mean a product that works on the PC AND the MAC then Adobe Premiere is pretty much the only one though you would still have to buy two versions.
Vegas is PC only. Most NLE's will work with the Z1 HDV but not all will natively work with EX files. Look at Edius 5.5 as it will work with most all formats in native form.
You might find that your laptop may not be up to editing if its not very powerful and only one laptop hard drive.

Ron Evans

thanks Ron

the reason that I would like MAC compatibility is I might buy a mac pro soon.

for this reason, if I do so, I might even consider Final cut

I guess there are so many editing softwares that I feel a bit lost, and even the famous ones will have different versions (express, pro etc etc)

I am pretty sure I will most of the times shoot to create DVDs

Ron,

Both Premiere and Avid run on PC and Mac.

If he just means programs that can handle Mac files, then most any PC can do that as long as quicktime is installed.

Vegas seems to be stable for some folks and not for others. It's stable for me as long as I don't push it hard. If I just have my EX1 files on the timeline, it does pretty good.

Yes, I forgot about Avid. Vegas is stable for me too though most of my video editing is on Edius, audio on Vegas and Sound Forge.

Ron Evans

which version of Vegas do you recommend?
the pro?
is there an entry version?

which version of Vegas do you recommend?
the pro?
is there an entry version?

If you are working with an EX1 or Z1, I don't recommend ANY entry level software. So yes, buy the Pro. Honestly, at this point, I'd recommend Edius instead. But if you must go with Vegas Pro, see if you can find someone to sell you a copy of 8.0c. The current release is v.9.0d. All the flavors of version 9 have been very buggy, and I wouldn't recommend it unless you NEED their capability.

Its really interesting how some people have "buggy" issues with Vegas, and other don't. I am thinking Vegas, was designed to run most efficiently with basic PC machines. It seems like to me the more complex the PC box is, the more issues people have. Machines loaded with high end graphics cards, capture cards, and raid arrays are the one experiencing issues. Not being that up on how all this works, it just seems to me that the more stuff you have on your box, the higher the probability is for some kind of problem. It also seems to me, the same applies to other NLE's.

For basic my basic off the shelf Dell 420 XPS, with 3 gigs of memory, runing at 32 bit. I have been running Vegas 9 c without appreciable issues. I use Cineform as my intermediate editing format, and that appears to help in my editing of Canon 5D avchd, relieving a lot of pressure on the system. I haven't moved on to 9 d, but I will be installing this weekend. I have read mixed reviews on that version.

I too would recommend Edius Pro 5.5. I have Vegas 9.0d, Edius 5.5, as well as CS4 on my PC together with several others. PC is Gigabyte X48-DQ6 MB, Q9450 Quad core, 8G RAM, ATI 3850 video card, running Vista 64. Hard drives are 250G boot, 250G temp drive, 2 x 750G RAID 0 on an Adaptec RAID card, 2 x 1T drives for storage, Quantum LTO3 backup tape drive. This PC is only used for editing and only accesses the internet for program updates, runs no virus or firewall software.

I have no problems running any of the programs on the PC or upgrading any of the latest updates like Edius 5.5 or Vegas 9.0d.

Ron Evans

Just for the record, Vegas Pro 8c is rock solid on my new i7, but all flavors of Vegas 9 are flakey for me (e.g., crash routinely). I mix a lot of images and cineform with multitrack 24-bit audio.

Don't the latest Macs boast that they run windows programs as well ? Hence any program should be OK on the Mac, but I am not a Mac person but my son is, & I have seen his run PC stuff.

I use Vegas and have had some issues but generally it is fine and offers good simplicity for fairly straightforward edits.

RonC.

it just seems to me that the more stuff you have on your box, the higher the probability is for some kind of problem. It also seems to me, the same applies to other NLE's.


I've always been suspicious about this too. Though in my little paranoid world, I suspect that it's the software we run. Virtual This, Virtual That.

It depends what you mean by working with PC and MAC. IF you really mean a product that works on the PC AND the MAC then Adobe Premiere is pretty much the only one though you would still have to buy two versions.
Vegas is PC only. Most NLE's will work with the Z1 HDV but not all will natively work with EX files. Look at Edius 5.5 as it will work with most all formats in native form.
You might find that your laptop may not be up to editing if its not very powerful and only one laptop hard drive.

Ron Evans

I've always been suspicious about this too. Though in my little paranoid world, I suspect that it's the software we run. Virtual This, Virtual That. Something is dicking with Vegas.

I have Vegas installed on 4 machines. None have virtual anything. All a bone stock OS installs with a bare minimum of applications installed. My primary editing machine has no other purpose in life other than to edit video and that's all I have installed. I can't even read the help files on that machine because they require PDF and I don't have the reader installed on that machine.

Every flavor of Vegas 9 has been flaky for me. 8.1 and 8.0c have been very solid. I was chatting online with a friend Friday while dropping some dailies from my current film on the timeline. All XDCamEX stuff, and less than 90 minutes of it. I had to render it in 10 minute sections otherwise I got out of memory errors on a Win7 x64 bit machine with 8GB of RAM. It was absolutely repeatable.

I wouldn't touch that software if I was under the gun or on a paid project.

Well... it just WORKS for me. I drop the footage on the timeline, edit it as needed, and spit it out to the desired format. Boom - done - works.

Well... it just WORKS for me. I drop the footage on the timeline, edit it as needed, and spit it out to the desired format. Boom - done - works.

Edward,


On numerous occasions, you've mentioned how well Vegas works for you. Would you mind very much giving us a brief outline of your workflow on a common project?

1. What type of files you're putting on the timeline (DV, HDV, XDCam, AVC-Intra, etc)
2. What length of project you normally do, and what would be considered a large project for you.
3. What type of editing you are doing. Cuts, transitions, dissolves, etc.
4. What type of color correction/grading you're doing? 3-way color wheel, MB Looks, etc.
5. What type of effects, if any, would be typical for a project for you.

I am curious about this because I can never seem to replicate the stability that you, and several others say you have. And I am wondering how far your workflow is from mine..

Thanks very much.

-P

I have Vegas Pro 9 32-bit on an XP SP2 machine (actually this laptop) and Vegas Pro 64-bit on a Vista 64 machine. My main shooting format is DV. However, I've also edited a shoot from another shooter who gives me mts files straight from a Panasonic camera card that is 1920x1080 footage. In either case, I simply drop them on the timeline, edit, add effects as needed, and render out to DVD or print to DV tape. My projects routinely run 2 hours long.

well this is interesting isnt it. LOL.
one mans dog is another mans unicorn.
Just a thought, everyone on here would likely have some example of their work on the net, whether it be ads, promo vids, live bands (me ), even the guys doing doco type work must have something out there.
Show your stuff guys, then when one person says its very stable/unstable, other people can get a reference to WHAT he/she is doing when it is stable/unstable.

Perrone, you have been saying for a while now Vegas is causing you problems, what are you doing to it?
I think you mentioned in another thread that you had a clean machine and couldn't get the render done without breaking it up into sections on a recent project, you have shown me recently that your knowledge of PC's is far superior to mine (thanks for your help by the way) surely you dont think that this is normal behavior for Vegas?

Just a thought, I recently had a bit of a dig at Final Cut, you know why I think everyone say's its so stable?
It wont let you do anything, codecs it allows are very limited, frame sizes and rates too, it doesn't want you messing with its head.
When things go bad in Vegas sit back and have a think, What have I got here? Hmmmmmm....
5 different codecs, 3 different resolutions, interlaced, progressive, why dont we throw in a 5k still and zoom and pan it as well.
Vegas is like the fat kid at McDonalds, "Gimme gimme, Ill take it all."
While that is great at first, IMO its what lets the program down as well. It will accept almost anything, but then stumbles as it uses it

If you really want to get serious,
Clean Windows install,
C drive is for Windows, Vegas only ( i have cs 4 on there as well. Even if it does get buggy, reinstall and up and running in 45min, no joke thats how quick it is )
convert all your media to one size, one codec.
get faster drives, my own crashes have stopped since doing this.

If your still having problems after this, buy a Mac and learn FCP.

Ive had a love hate relationship with Vegas in the past, but as I work out the bugs in MY work flow, the better Vegas seems to get.

well that turned out to be a bit of rant, lol
just my 2c :)

Gerald that's a great reply and a good bit of advice.

I've had and still have a love hate relationship with the software. The only way, for me, for a problem free workflow was to sit back and figure out what was causing the problem.

I run Vegas 7.0E on a dual core 2.66 machine with XP Pro on it. It has no internet connection, it does nothing but run Vegas (via Cineform NEO HDV) and runs faultlessly. I used to have problems with crashing but discovered that any Cineform AVI with corrupted timecode or bad dropout was causing Vegas to crash or simply close. In fact it happened the day before yesterday but I know that's the only reason for it happening.

I upgraded to Vegas 8, but just didn't like it so never used it. I upgraded to 9, liked it, but couldn't deal with the unbelievably long amount of time it takes to import new material into a project so have binned it. In fact having V9 on my machine was also contributing to V7 crashing so I binned it, did a system restore and hey presto I'm back to crash free.

I mainly shoot HD, HDV or DV for delivery to DVD, broadcast PAL and web. Even the stuff I deliver to broadcast is shot in HDV or HD, dropped onto an HD timeline and rendered out to DV. It really is easy.

However, as soon as someone asks for something different, like they did the other day........things start getting interesting.

My advice; Choose your workflow, make sure it works for you in Vegas, and try to stick to it. Go messing around with a multitude of formats, codecs etc and you're asking for trouble.

Now.....i want to upgrade our cameras to tapeless, P2 for example.....and I'm wondering whether Vegas is the right software now.......my research tells me not!

Perrone, you have been saying for a while now Vegas is causing you problems, what are you doing to it?
I think you mentioned in another thread that you had a clean machine and couldn't get the render done without breaking it up into sections on a recent project, you have shown me recently that your knowledge of PC's is far superior to mine (thanks for your help by the way) surely you dont think that this is normal behavior for Vegas?


Actually, i do think it's common behavior for Vegas. Forums are full of people having similar problems. SCS has acknowledged several of these problems already, so they aren't just the perception of a few users with rogue machines.

I'm trimming down 3 hours of footage now shot on my EX1. But I am doing it at home on 8.0c because I have to deliver it. I didn't even bother using any of my real machines with V9 on them. I don't trust it any more.



If you really want to get serious,
Clean Windows install,
C drive is for Windows, Vegas only ( i have cs 4 on there as well. Even if it does get buggy, reinstall and up and running in 45min, no joke thats how quick it is )
convert all your media to one size, one codec.
get faster drives, my own crashes have stopped since doing this.

If your still having problems after this, buy a Mac and learn FCP.


Been there, done that. Three times on my primary editing machine, three times on the laptop. New OS from scratch, scrubbed data drives. Same issues with Vegas 9.x

Using a single codec might work, and it might not. But if I am going to do that, I might as well use apps that support it natively and accelerate that codec instead of just limiting myself. If I could lock myself down to just DV, I am sure Vegas would work great. Unfortunately, Vegas chokes on files from my Sony camera, it chokes on files from the 5D/7D, and it chokes on files from the other cameras I need to support.

And buying a Mac is not something I am going to do or even want to do.

I did a fresh install of Win 7 64 bit, did all updates first. Installed Vegas Pro 9.0d, dragged AND imported a single m2t clip from my source drive - Vegas hangs for over 15 seconds and goes non-responsive. That was the last straw for me.

Here's my experience with Vegas Pro any more: out of memory errors and frequent crashes interrupt MY creative workflow

the inability to have full frame playback GREATLY interrupts my creative workflow... I can't even see where to cut

To have to replace the VP9.0d version of the aviplug.dll with the one from 9.0c to resolve slow load times - that's not a professional app in my book. To have the deshaker plug in done by a third party hooking to shareware on the back end while AVID provides a superior route natively and Edius can utilize Mercalli without issues - again, I ask....

In my work, Edius has so slapped vegas around the room that the pro moniker on the Vegas title is, TBH, a misnomer.

I WAS a strong advocate for Vegas since version 6 but it has cost me time and money since version 8 with all the workarounds. Grass Valley Edius (personally) and AVID (others I know) both have shown how serious they are at meeting the needs of serious professional POWER users around the world - and they once again proved it at NAB. Final Cut is a non issue since its attached to the worlds largest dongle supplied by Apple and at NAB the SONY broadcast booth was using what NLE to demonstrate? That would be Final Cut Pro (blech)

I've given Vegas many chances in my post production work - yet it has let me down time & time again. When a fresh install of Windows 7 64bit with all updates applied first and then a base install of Vegas Pro only, a quad core Q9400, 8GB matched ram, separate HD's for source and render and a standard m2t clip locks it up (both 32 & 64bit versions) - that's the straw that broke the camels back for me. And it wasn't just a single m2t clip - I tried multiple ones from my tape based HC7's that were ingested to my internal 750GB 7200rpm sata source drive - same result.

Sorry guys - I don't feel the love in SCS Vegas Pro any longer. I'll stick to a known STABLE/RELIABLE NLE like Edius or Avid since they are, IMO, professional tools meant to get paying work done on time and on budget.

My advice; Choose your workflow, make sure it works for you in Vegas, and try to stick to it. Go messing around with a multitude of formats, codecs etc and you're asking for trouble.


This is great advice for people who can absolutely dictate what comes in the door. I don't get that luxury.


Now.....i want to upgrade our cameras to tapeless, P2 for example.....and I'm wondering whether Vegas is the right software now.......my research tells me not!

Well, considering that Vegas doesn't support P2 (without a third party application), and my EX1 files are choking Vegas 9 at the moment, I think you'll understand my position...

Federico:

If you work your way around the net, its always the same people whining and moaning. The way I see using Vegas is to keep it simple.

Simple way to look at this, is if you are doing long complicated projects with multiple codecs, you are tempting breakdown in any NLE. Some will handle it better. But there is another solution.

I convert everything as far as HD goes, to Cineform. It will cost you $160 to $ 500 depending on what you need, but it is of great benefit to working in most NLE. By converting to a common codec, you aren't asking for a problem with mixing codecs in a project. It works clean and simple and for me, there isn't a problem. And because Cinefom is a near lossless codec, I can afford to edit my projects in littler chunks, render, and then edit those chunks into a final total project.

Now I know some try to slap a 2 hour project together in a single project file. I think that is asking for trouble. It seems logical to me to break any project down into small components that don't tax the processor no matter what kind of memory you or resources you have on board.

Keep it simple.

Federico:

If you work your way around the net, its always the same people whining and moaning. The way I see using Vegas is to keep it simple.



I convert everything as far as HD goes, to Cineform. It will cost you $160 to $ 500 depending on what you need



And because Cinefom is a near lossless codec, I can afford to edit my projects in littler chunks, render, and then edit those chunks into a final total project.



Now I know some try to slap a 2 hour project together in a single project file. I think that is asking for trouble.



It seems logical to me to break any project down into small components that don't tax the processor no matter what kind of memory you or resources you have on board.

Keep it simple.

Let me see if I understand this right...

Your suggestion to this poster is to:

A. Buy a $500 NLE
B. Purchase a third party program at $160-500
C. Transcode to a somewhat lossy codec that cost him $160-$500
D. Break his project into little chunks
E. Render each little chunk then bring the little chunks BACK into the timeline for a final project render, losing even more information in the process.

And you consider this "keeping it simple"? And you wonder why people are complaining? Seriously? When you can lay 10 hours of HD onto a single timeline in a $200 program like Edius Neo and have realtime playback and not jump through any of these hoops, and have it be bulletproof?

Or for the same money as buying Vegas Pro and Cineform he can buy the full blown Edius package which is faster, has accelerated single codec workflow (CanopusHQ), and can do everything Vegas can do and more?

Yes, all over the internet, the same people complain. Because the problems never get solved or addressed, and the problems continue to cause headaches for people who can't (or aren't willing to) keep throwing money at the problems for workarounds to a supposedly professional application that should need none of it.

I've never had any issue trying to "slap together" a two hour project in Premiere, nor in Avid, nor in Vegas 6, 7, or 8. I've cut more than 20 hours in the same project in Vegas 8 without so much as a hiccup. And that kind of work is routine in Avid and Final Cut.

Whatever...

Exactly what I am saying. I am simply relating what works for me, that is all I am saying, if it doesn't work for you, don't use it. Intermediate codecs are nothing new and certainly should be considered. There are other benefits that come with Cineform, but that is not what this is about.

You have seemed to make it your personal campaign to malign a decent editing program, and I think that is not what this forum is about. The OP was posting and asking about Vegas, not looking for a sales pitch for Edius or another program.

We all know that as new codecs and ways of acquiring footage come on board, and as new processes develop, the NLE programmers run behind the curve. I think Vegas has shown that it addresses the problems, just the same way that Final Cut, Edius, and Adobe do. Take a snap shot at any given moment, and one will be ahead of the other. But resolutions come.

As a Vegas user I prefer the freedoms that Vegas provides in the GUI, over that provided in the more conventional NLE's, and I think that is wheremany Vegas users find their benefit. Vegas is not for everyone, nor is any other NLE.

Exactly what I am saying. I am simply relating what works for me, that is all I am saying, if it doesn't for you, don't use it. Intermediate codecs are nothing new and certainly should be considered. There are other benefits that come with Cineform, but that is not what this is about.


Intermediate codecs are certainly nothing new. And as simply as you are stating what works for you, I am stating what does not work for me. Two sides of the same coin. I see zero other benefits to Cineform, but it certainly does improve the playback speed on Vegas. The 10-bit is nice as well to be fair.


You have seemed to make it your personal campaign to malign a decent editing program, and I think that is not what this forum is about. The OP was posting and asking about Vegas, not looking for a sales pitch for Edius or another program.


I am in no way trying to malign any decent editing program. I am merely pointing out weaknesses in an editing program based on this posters stated needs. He says he has a moderate laptop and wants to cut mpeg2 based files. You are pointing a finger at me for suggesting a different application that might work better, while you seemingly ignore the fact that you are suggesting he spend money on a different codec that will work better?



We all know that as new codecs and ways of acquiring footage come on board, and as new processes develop, the NLE programmers run behind the curve. I think Vegas has shown that it addresses the problems, just the same way that Final Cut, Edius, and Adobe do. Take a snap shot at any given moment, and one will be ahead of the other. But resolutions come.


Yes, NLE programmers run behind the curve on codecs. But the poster is asking about two SONY Mpeg2 based codecs that have been around for years now. Support for those codecs are in every pro NLE you can name, and most consumer based one's as well. This shouldn't be anything difficult. Nor should it be out of line to ask that a $500 application not need a $500 codec purchase to edit files from a camera by the same company. And for the record, Vegas has NEVER addressed the problem like FCP and Edius do. Those companies have built-in codecs to avoid these issues and then they go so far as to accelerate them in hardware to ensure full playback speed. Something Vegas has never done. At least not in my 7 year history with it.



As a Vegas user I prefer the freedoms that Vegas provides in the GUI, over that provided in the more conventional NLE's, and I think that is wheremany Vegas users find their benefit. Vegas is not for everyone, nor is any other NLE.

You are correct in that Vegas is not for everyone. But in regards to this poster, at this moment in time, Vegas is not a viable solution based on his posted criteria. Yes, workarounds exist. And I've posted them time and again. Just as I can say alternate solutions exist that should also be considered.

Honestly, if you like Vegas and it's working well for you, stay on 8.0c. If you are looking to jump, download a trial of the full Edius program. I'll defer to Cliff on the specifics as he's gone toward Edius while I have gone a different direction.

I just reinstalled Vegas 8.0c for future work. Since 9.x is not backwards compatible, I can't open my current projects in it, but anything from this point forward will be done in 8.0c or 8.1.

-P

I'm all for pointing out issues and discussing them but I've seen about enough in this thread. Let's put this to rest now or I will.

Perrone, Vegas isn't working for you and what you do - fine, we get that. But also tell Sony what issues you're having so they can fix them via their website.

Personally, Vegas does everything I need without your issues so I use it. I like the way it works. I would also be LOST without scripting. I don't break my projects into small pieces or convert to different codecs - even with HD footage. Plus, I don't like the complicated methods found in the other NLEs for the same things I easily do in Vegas.

Perrone, Vegas isn't working for you and what you do - fine, we get that. But also tell Sony what issues you're having so they can fix them via their website.


I've told Sony. Through their forums, through feedback, through their webinars, and I even spent 2 hours talking to the Vegas program manager. They addressed some issues I had with the program (increased support for RED, DPX, captioning) but have left other showstoppers off the list.


Personally, Vegas does everything I need without your issues so I use it. I like the way it works. I would also be LOST without scripting. I don't break my projects into small pieces or convert to different codecs - even with HD footage. Plus, I don't like the complicated methods found in the other NLEs for the same things I easily do in Vegas.

I like the way Vegas works too... when it works (for me). Which is why I've kept it for 7 years. Like Cliff, I kept hoping that they would solve the core issues with each release. And I kept asking my purchasing dept, to renew my versions... I've bought every release since Vegas 6. My workflow doesn't require the use of scripting. And I need to be able to handle a multitude of codecs. Our uses and needs are different. And that's fine.

I do wish people would be cognizant of the fact that I do recommend Vegas to others. In circumstances where I feel it's the right tool. I'll tell ANYONE right now, that Vegas is absolutely the best tool for RED on the PC. That will likely change in a couple of weeks. But for the past year or so, it's been true. It's a terrific editor for self-contained folks doing DV or HDV work. In fact, it excels at it.

The program only begins to show cracks as you need to do more collaborative work with other professionals, or with higher end codecs or digital cinema. That is my impression after years of using it in various ways.

That's all I've got, I hope the original poster has gotten his questions answered and I hope we can put this to bed.

For the OP, I edit primarily from HDV footage from the FX1, sister to the Z1, from the Canon HV20, and from (HDV again), and from the Canon 5D. All of these put additional strain on your processing capability as the system interprets individual frames on the go. Add color correction and other filters, and preview gets bogged down. I use Cineform as an intermediate to relieve some that pressure, and it works well with that. I have also converted HVX200 mxf files in the same manner.

In fact, the earlier versions of Vegas had the early Cineform codec on board for intermediate editing. I have simply carried that forward to current versions, and I am glad I did.

I do a lot of multimedia pieces that mix multitrack audio (using loads of audio VST plugins) with panned/zoomed photos (keyframed a la Ken Burns style) and video with fx (mostly Cineform versions of 24p and 30p-conformed-to-24p 5D2 footage). Vegas 8c is rock solid for this workflow and is so mind-boggling awesome at doing it inside of a single app it still impresses me 'til this day after years of using it. I mean the app is a full-blown audio editor with unlimited tracks, multiple buses, VST-support, automation/keyframing, etc. But to be able to drop video into the timeline with the audio like that, and to be able to pan/zoom using keyframes on photos without leaving the app is just KILLER. But then again, I'm a one-man show, so this works for me. I seriously can't imagine using anything else for what I'm into.

download a trial of the full Edius program.

Edius is tedious. It does not use the standard Windows interface. It has its own black background and the menus are so tiny you need a microscope to read them. No thanks! Vegas is so easy to use. I don't understand why anyone would use anything else. And yes, it is a great all-rounder.

Vegas is so easy to use. I don't understand why anyone would use anything else.

This is absolutely indicative of the issue.

"Easy to use" is not the primary criteria I have for selecting my applications for any use.

On the other hand, you would not want to use a program that requires a Ph.D in rocket science just to even use the most basic of its functions. (This means that a person of even extensive experience spent years or even decades trying to use that software, only to have it not work properly or at all due to usability issues rather than bugs.)

Fortunately, very few pieces of software are so difficult to use that they would frustrate even the most experienced of users. The most complex of NLEs are difficult initially, but fairly easy to use with some experience.

With that said, I found Vegas a bit limiting on a lot of personal video projects that I use the NLE for. I still use it - but as of now, only for the selection and conversion of audio tracks which had been extracted from the video clips.

I like Vegas. I've just loaded 9d and its working fine (in tandem with NeoScene for DSLR footage).

This is a bit of a wacky thread.

I used Premiere from Version 4.0 through P.Pro, 1.0 but then one of my jobs required the use of Sony Vegas 7.0 and I haven't gone back. I think Vegas has the most intuitive interface, a wide variety of built-in tools that let you do "enough" without having to resort to a plugin or another piece of software, and it's relatively inexpensive.

I've used it to edit DV, HDV, and AVCHD. My only beef with this software is that they still haven't satisfactorily programmed it to utilize all the computer resources to run the preview window.


I'm particularly impressed with the multi-camera editing. I had a project with four cameras, and it was like live switching a show, but if you mess up you can control-z and do it again. Very cool.

As for red frames or whatever, that usually has to do with the files that you're feeding it. There was probably something garbled while capturing. This has only happened to me with M2T files from my HDV camera or my firestore, and what fixes it is running it through the free mpeg repair program that was recommended to me on here.

I've never had it crash in the ways described, either on my Pentium 4 system, or my current Quad-core 64bit Vista Machine, even when editing the four-camera, 2hr concert.

Good evening,

What an interesting read this thread has been!

At this point the only nle I have not really used was Avid, I tried the demo out for a short time.

Today Vegas is my primary editor, I love it in many ways.

I seem to be able to make any program crash at some point, probably should make myself a set a protocal of method that runs smootly.

I have also moved with Edius, and the reasons are obvious for longer more complex projects and real time play back in full resolution (it is nice usually not essential, but essential when under heavy load of cc, graphics and animations). Yes, the gui is not real nice, but it is wizard in its own way.

I am pretty convinced most problems are caused by the individual computers more than the software.

What really should be talked about is how to make our computers more software compatible!!!!

Even though I can't use the 64 bit d I still believe the aforementioned.



Dale Guthormsen

stil using 8.o c and 9.0c 32 bit, on my 64 bit power house.

As I said, the fonts in Edius are way too small. Maybe if I was still twenty with perfect vision I could still use Edius. As I am turning 60 in just a few hours, I find Edius completely impossible to use. Not just hard, impossible. To me it is more important that the software does the job than that it looks fancy. There is a good reason why operating systems have a standardized interface. Fancy skins not only make it hard (and for some of us impossible) to use, they also consume unnecessary resources, waste memory and slow everything down.

As it is, all professional NLEs do the job. I'd much rather do the job with software that does it quickly without too many complications. That is why I use Vegas.

The question was whether Vegas is a good all-rounder software. The answer is yes, it is. It does not do everything, but no software does. The only time I find it frustrating is when working on 3D projects. I wrote my own plug-ins for that and find it limiting in the 3D area because there are things I cannot do with it, not even with my own plug-ins. But then, Sony has never claimed Vegas was a 3D editor. I will probably end up writing my own 3D editor from scratch eventually. But Vegas is a great all-rounder NLE.

As I said, the fonts in Edius are way too small. Maybe if I was still twenty with perfect vision I could still use Edius. As I am turning 60 in just a few hours, I find Edius completely impossible to use. Not just hard, impossible.


You do realize you can manipulate the system fonts right? But in any event, I COMPLETELY agree about programs being impossible to work in. Really cramps your day.



To me it is more important that the software does the job than that it looks fancy.


Couldn't agree more. Which is why it's so frustrating when loading footage into Vegas causes the program to hang (9.0d), or dropping jpegs on the timeline cause red/black frames (9.0, 9.0a, 9.0c), rendering long-GOP codecs on the timeline produces out of memory errors on machines with 8GB of RAM or more (all flavors of V9), preview window cannot play back even one stream of long-gop 1080p footage with effects applied (V8.x, V9.x), timeline shows ghosts of projects that are no longer loaded, especially text(V9.0/9.0a) etc. These are well documented and acknowledged problems by Sony. Check the knowlegebase. They are there. Check the SCS forums, they are there.

Tell you what. Rather than argue the point of whether Vegas 9 has significant issues or not, or whether these issues are just "rogue machines with bad hardware on installations", I'll refer you to the release notes for V9.0d which gives the updates and fixes along the 9.x path.

Referenced document is available here: Sony Creative Software Inc. - Vegas Release Notes (http://sony-250.vo.llnwd.net/dspcdn/releasenotes/vegaspro90d_readme_enu.htm)

For Brevity, I will omit feature enhancements, and only list bug fixes:

V 9.0a

# Fixed an issue using some Generic MIDI controllers that used polyphonic aftertouch.
# Fixed a Video Capture issue that was recreating default capture directory.
# Fixed an undo issue that could occur when Preferences > Display > Automatically hide docking area was enabled.
# Fixed an issue that prevented the Video Preview from updating immediately if the project field order was changed.
# Fixed an issue with incorrect generated media (e.g. Text) settings being used when switching between projects that were created from a common project (using Save As).
# Fixed an issue that could cause incorrect behavior if multiple clips were loaded into the Trimmer from the Vegas Explorer.
# Fixed an issue with Import from Hard Disk Recording Unit where only the first clip would appear in the Project Media window.
# Fixed an issue with Import from Hard Disk Recording Unit with files with discontinuous timestamps.
# Fixed an issue where subclip comments were not being preserved when media was relinked during load.
# Fixed an issue where media comments were not being preserved when media was copied with the project.
# Fixed an issue with supplying time information to some VST plug-ins.
# Fixed an issue where using Apply Non-Real-Time Event FX with the Simple Delay plug-in was not including the effect tail.
# Fixed an issue with Apply Non-Real-Time Event FX using monophonic sources.
# Fixed an issue with tempo-synchronized effects when used with Apply Non-Real-Time Event FX renders.
# Fixed an issue in the MPEG-2 reader that could cause black frames in certain cases.
# Fixed an issue which could cause crashes with Windows Media Video (WMV) content.
# Fixed a freeze that could occur previewing MOV files on an external display via IEEE 1394/DV.
# Fixed an issue that prevented smart rendering from being used when rendering MXF DV to AVI DV.
# Fixed an issue with running out of memory during AVCHD rendering.
# Fixed an issue that could cause the Video Preview to freeze when using IEEE 1394/DV external monitoring.
# Fixed an issue that could cause the frame to turn white when using Best mode, Track Motion, and 32-bit floating point pixel format.
# Fixed an issue that could cause a crash during rendering with certain audio plug-ins.
# Fixed an issue that could cause a crash while opening certain MP3 files.
# Fixed an issue reading certain MP3 metadata.
# Fixed an issue that could cause a freeze when using the Video Preview Split Screen View feature with Clipboard contents.
# Fixed an issue that would not show correct preview during fast forward/fast reverse during HDV capture preview.
# Fixed an issue that could cause incorrect playback with clips from certain Panasonic HDV cameras.
# Fixed slow startup times for users with many FX packages.
# Fixed a rendering freeze when using Acoustic Mirror on a bus.
# Fixed an issue with video event masks not rendering in the correct location.
# Fixed a crash rendering MainConcept AVC with the Two-pass check box selected.
# Fixed a crash that could occur when using Undo while dragging a pan/crop rectangle.
# Fixed live update of Video Preview while changing RED File Format Properties in the 64-bit version of Vegas Pro.
# Fixed a problem reading multichannel audio from RED camera files.
# Fixed a render freeze with certain projects.
# Fixed a crash that could occur when attempting to record if the drive containing your recorded files folder is offline.
# Fixed issues with custom templates in Print to Tape and XDCAM Explorer export.
# Fixed an issue with partial conforms in the XDCAM Explorer.
# Fixed an issue with rendering surround projects to multiple mono files.
# Fixed an issue that prevented stereo render templates from being displayed for 5.1 surround projects.
# Fixed an issue with Center control resetting to 0.0 dB (if it was over 0.0 dB) after moving the pan position.
# Fixed an issue with trying to save 32-bit files as FLAC; we now limit these to 24-bit.
# Fixed an issue that caused other file types to be displayed when All Project and Media Files was selected in the Files of type drop-down list.
# Fixed an issue that prevented .veg files from being displayed in the Import Media dialog under Windows XP.
# Fixed an issue rendering 32-bit floating-point project to DPX format if the project contained levels above full brightness.
# Fixed an issue opening some FLAC files.
# Fixed performance issue reading CineForm media when Video Preview is in set to Half or Quarter size (or Auto when it uses these sizes).
# Fixed an issue with certain large images not scaling correctly (resulting in slightly reduced quality).
# Fixed an issue with the ProType Titler not using character animation if you closed the property page while editing the text.
# Fixed a video resampling (e.g., velocity envelope) issue with certain combinations of source media and project formats when Adjust source media to better match project or render settings is enabled.
# Fixed an issue with event mask feather amount jumping in certain cases while panning across an image.
# Fixed an issue that resulted in very dark levels for certain DPX files.
# Fixed an issue reading XDCAM HD422 proxy files generated with newer deck firmware.
# Fixed a crash that could occur saving a customized keyboard map.
# Fixed an issue that could cause a crash when running the application with the Device Explorer window open and certain optical discs (such as Blu-ray Disc media) loaded.
# Fixed an issue with rendering to AVI using a custom template when the audio format was set to anything other than "uncompressed."
# Fixed an issue in capture entering timecode when the device's dropframe/non-dropframe state differs from the previous clip.
# Fixed an issue reading MXF templates from previous versions.
# Fixed an issue with Mixing Console fader positions when switching between automation and trim modes.
# Fixed an issue with the Text generator that caused the Outline and Shadow settings to revert to the default values when turning off the effect.
# Fixed an issue that could prevent the 64-bit version of Vegas from prompting you to save your project when shutting down Windows.


V 9.0b

* Resolved an issue that could cause the contents of media generators (most often text generators) to change when the Undo command was used.
* Fixed a bug that could cause Vegas to crash during startup on some computers running Windows XP.
* Fixed a bug that could cause still images to appear out of focus when rotated via Event Pan/Crop.
* Fixed a bug that could cause audio dropouts in XDCAM SD (DVCAM) MXF files.
* Fixed a bug that could cause an error when conforming trimmed XDCAM clips on the PDW-U1 deck.
* Fixed a bug that prevented some QuickTime files from reading audio properly.
* Fixed a bug that prevented metadata from being imported with 720-50p XDCAM clips.


V 9.0c

# Fixed an issue where XDCAM EX essence markers were not displayed for clips imported using the Device Explorer.
# Fixed an issue reading QuickTime audio when using QuickTime 7.6.4.
# Fixed a crash when displaying the Audio tab for QuickTime templates when using QuickTime 7.6.4.
# Fixed an issue that could cause certain large clips of XDCAM (MXF) audio to have small dropouts.
# General compatibility improvements to XDCAM HD MXF files.
# Fixed and issue with smart rendering MXF/DV content to AVI/DV format.
# Fixed an issue with saving a project with trimmed MXF/DV media.
# Fixed an issue where the audio proxy for nested projects might not fully render.
# Fixed a crash that could occur while creating a custom AVI render template.
# Improved audio/video sync in Sony AVC and MainConcept AVC.
# Fixed an issue with AVCHD markers not appearing in the correct location.
# Fixed a hang that could occur rendering AVCHD with AC-3 audio.
# Fixed an issue reading certain AVC files (64-bit version).
# Fixed an issue creating a template with a custom bit rate in MainConcept AVC/AAC.
# Fixed an issue rendering certain projects to MainConcept AVC/AAC (64-bit version).
# Fixed an issue with removing 2-3 pulldown from AVI/DV 24p sources.
# Fixed an issue that could cause the Windows Secondary Monitor to display incorrectly after performing a prerender.
# Fixed an issue with prerender or print to tape to certain progressive formats when media generators are used without effects or compositing.
# Fixed an issue that could cause a glitch in the audio if two envelope points were at the same location.
# Fixed image preview during HDV capture (64-bit version).
# Fixed an issue where 64-bit VST plug-ins would not appear (64-bit version).
# Fixed an issue that could cause the Vegas90.exe process to remain in Task Manager after closing Vegas (Windows XP only).
# Fixed Project Media window Timecode In/Timecode Out fields to not use project ruler offset.
# Fixed an issue that could cause events created using Render to New Track to be misaligned if Quantize to Frames was enabled.
# Fixed an issue that could cause the Add as CD Track command to create events without media for some file types.
# Fixed an issue with setting the recording path in the Project Properties dialog.
# Fixed an issue that could cause Open Copy in Sound Forge to change the audio bit depth of the resulting take.
# Fixed an issue with DPX file row padding.

V 9.0d

# Fixed a crash that could occur during startup when using the 64-bit version of the application with certain RAID controllers.
# Fixed a crash that could occur when adding certain audio effects to the Master Bus FX chain.
# Fixed a hang that could occur while changing FX parameters with an external DV monitor enabled.
# Fixed a hang that could occur when using 32-bit VST audio effects in the 64-bit version of the application.
# Fixed a hang that could occur after capturing HDV clips.
# Fixed field order in reader for certain H.264 files.
# Fixed Import Stereo as Dual Mono when dragging media from the Device Explorer window.
# Fixed a smart render issue with XDCAM HD.
# Fixed a smart render issue with MXF PAL DV rendered to AVI PAL DV.
# Fixed timecode reading for 50p and 60p XDCAM MXF media.
# Fixed an issue with waveform drawing accuracy when very quiet events are normalized.
# Fixed an issue that could prevent audio from appearing for certain AVI files.
# Fixed a crash that could occur when rendering many markers to Sony MXF format.
# Fixed a bug that could cause clicks when using certain Track EQ automation settings.
# Fixed an issue where deleting one Track Motion preset could cause others to be removed.
# Fixed a slight artifact that could occur when using the Broadcast Colors video effect.
# Improved support for VST audio plug-ins written in Delphi.
# Fixed a problem that could cause summary data to be lost when using custom Windows Media Video rendering templates.
# Fixed a problem with enabling the audio stream when using custom Windows Media Video rendering templates.
# Fixed the ability to capture from HDCA-702 MPEG TS Adaptor.
# Fixed the ability to render to multiple mono files using PCA format.
# Fixed the ability to seek in files rendered using the MainConcept AAC/AVC format.
# Fixed a problem that could cause corrupt video when rendering to QuickTime format using the 3 Mbps Video template.
# Fixed the operation of the Proportional check box in the Checkerboard generator plug-in.
# Fixed an issue with media generators not using a changed pixel aspect ratio.
# Fixed an issue saving and restoring templates in the Command Properties dialog.
# Fixed an issue that prevented JPEG from being used to save image sequences.
# Fixed an issue with Trimmer Fit-to-Fill not creating the correct media start time.
# Fixed an issue with scrubbing in reverse past the media start time in the Trimmer.
# Fixed issue with Event Pan/Crop Match Output Aspect when Adjust source media to better match project or render settings applied to the source media.
# Fixed an issue that prevented markers from appearing in the correct position for rendered FLAC files.
# Corrected a problem that could cause black frames in MOV files after installing the QuickTime 7.6.6 update.

Continued:

3.0 Known Issues

* Windows Vista® manages memory significantly differently than Windows XP. In some situations of high memory use by Sony Creative Software products, performance can suffer. The effects are more pronounced when working with media that requires large amounts of memory such as HDV.

Microsoft has released an update for Windows Vista that alleviates some of this behavior. More information on the update is available from Microsoft: How to improve the performance and reliability of Windows Vista if you cannot upgrade to Windows Vista Service Pack 1 (http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=938979)
* The Windows Media Audio 9 Voice codec is not included with the Windows Media Player 11 update. If you've installed Windows Media Player 11, rendering to Windows Media Audio 9 format will produce an error. For more information, please refer to Knowledge Base article 932390 on the Microsoft Help and Support site.
* If you are printing a rendered file to HDV tape, the file must precisely conform to the target HDV device and file type requirements, or the print-to-tape operation will fail. Rendering using the provided HDV MPEG-2 render templates—unmodified in any way—is required to successfully print to HDV tape.
* Vegas Pro templates for rendering multichannel audio in .wav/.wav64, .avi, and .mxf formats may be visible in other Sony Creative Software Inc. applications that do not support multichannel audio. Using these templates in other applications will not produce the desired result and should be avoided.
* If you do not have the Microsoft .NET Framework installed before installing Vegas Pro 9, you may — under some conditions — be unable to log on to your computer if you log off and then attempt to log on again without rebooting. Rebooting your computer will allow you to log on, run, and register Vegas Pro 9.
* Under some uncommon conditions on multiprocessor machines, you may encounter stability problems when using some Waves 5.2 plug-ins. In most cases, the stability issues can be resolved by clearing the Enable track buffering check box in Vegas Pro 9 (Options > Preferences > Audio Device).
* You may not be able to render files larger than 4 GB using some combinations of settings in the Sony AVC encoder.
* If you have multiple Sony applications (such as ACID, Sound Forge, CD Architect, etc.) installed, uninstalling other Sony applications may cause your audio plug-ins to be removed from Vegas Pro. To restore your audio plug-ins, uninstall and reinstall Vegas Pro.
* When the Show Video Monitor button in the Trimmer window is selected, video that you preview from the Vegas Explorer and Media Manager windows is played back in the Trimmer. Because the Trimmer is placed in the same window dock as the Explorer and Media Manager, you will not see your video preview. To preview Explorer and Media Manager video, you can drag the Trimmer to a new dock group, or you can turn off the Show Video Monitor button to preview in the Video Preview window.
* The Step Forward and Step Backward buttons in the Capture window are not supported by all HDV devices.
* If your project contains still-image sequences or segmented .r3d files, do not select the Copy media with project check box in the Save As dialog. Some frames or segments may not be saved when this check box is selected.
* The following features are not available in the 64-bit version of Vegas 9.0. If you need to use the following features, you can share projects between 32- and 64-bit versions of Vegas 9.0 installations, performing editing as needed in 32-bit Vegas 9.0 and finishing the project in 64-bit Vegas 9.0:
o Rendering templates created in 32-bit Vegas 9.0 are not available in 64-bit Vegas 9.0.
o Cinescore support is not available.
o Gracenote support is not available.
o AAF import and export are not available.
o Third-party plug-ins will work only if they are 64-bit plug-ins. Please check with the plug-in vendor for available updates.





These are only the acknowledged issues. Various users have submitted other serious issues yet which have not been formally acknowledged.

Clearly SCS is trying. But just as clearly, 9.X was not ready for primetime upon release and has cause major headaches from numerous users. You don't get this kind of list from a few rogue internet users moaning on the internet forums...

I have been using Vegas for a couple of years and I find that's its perfect for my needs. I totally agree with what Edward Troxel has said in all his previous posts. If it works for you then that's really all that matters. FCP, Premier, Edius, Vegas they all do the same thing, it's wise to know a little about every one of them, you never know for who you will be editing.

Workflow elements I like is that I can open Vegas no questions about project name or where you want to save it, the software just opens and is ready to go. Drag and drop all my files into the timeline which gives me an instant view of all my footage so I know exactly where everything is. The rest is simply standard NLE, the only thing I would like is After Effects communication.

I have given thought to switching to other software packages like Edius or Final Cut but I'm spoiled with "Excalibur" - a automated powerhouse. I can't edit without the automation that Excalibur offers to Vegas, nor can I imagine editing in any other platform without the automation of scripting. So in essence Edward Troxel you ruined me for other platforms with Excalibur.

thanks to everyone

WOW so many opinions...
I am having a hard time finding a store that sells Vegas 8c, but as I am not an advanced editor I think I might start with Vegas (the other option would be to switch and buy a mac pro and use Final Cut Pro, but I don't want to open a can of worns : ) )

from what I understand (and because I will be using the Z1 and/or the EX1r) I will be needing Cineform Neoscene right?
is it really needed even with the EX1?
will it be crucial to get the intermediate codec in my situation?
would you guys think that using Sony Vegas on an Apple Machine (that runs windows too) would be more stable than the on a PC?

many thanks
Fed

Federico you don't need Cineform for the EX1, I edit raw EX1 footage all the time in Vegas with no hassles. Cineform only becomes useful when you edit 5D/7D footage. If you have the money for a Mac Pro buy one it's worth the money and will run Windows beautifully with the added benefit of the Mac OS also available to you. If you are on a tight budget a powerful PC running Windows 7 is as stable as a Mac.

I think to sum it all up, YES Vegas is perhaps the best all around software for Video editing, in other words, if you had to restrict the yourself to a single application, Vegas probably does more things well than any of its neighbors. It's also the cheapest and the easiest to use. One caveat: Never go past version 8.0c unless you love drama in your life.

Federico you don't need Cineform for the EX1, I edit raw EX1 footage all the time in Vegas with no hassles. Cineform only becomes useful when you edit 5D/7D footage. If you have the money for a Mac Pro buy one it's worth the money and will run Windows beautifully with the added benefit of the Mac OS also available to you. If you are on a tight budget a powerful PC running Windows 7 is as stable as a Mac.


thanks Nicholas: just to be clear - if I buy a Mac Pro and run Windows 7 with Vegas 8c, will I be able to use an external bluray player?
does Vegas 8c support it?
I ask because I read some users saying Vegas 8c doesn't allow rendering full HD on AVCHD files....but should be fine with Mpeg 2 I suppose

also: does Vegas 8c fully work with EX1 raw files (mp4)? I read different opinions

Yes an external blu-ray will work fine with a Mac running Windows. I'm currently running Vegas 9d except for the extremely long load time on projects it's okay. To encode and make menu's for blu-ray I use Adobe Encore, brilliant software. DVD Architect from Sony is not the best software for this.

thanks Nicholas: just to be clear - if I buy a Mac Pro and run Windows 7 with Vegas 8c, will I be able to use an external bluray player?
does Vegas 8c support it?
I ask because I read some users saying Vegas 8c doesn't allow rendering full HD on AVCHD files....but should be fine with Mpeg 2 I suppose

also: does Vegas 8c fully work with EX1 raw files (mp4)? I read different opinions

8c should have no problems rendering full HD in AVC (AVCHD is a marketing term and doesn't really apply here). However, based on some rather odd issues, you may want to render to a lossless codec in Vegas and let DVD Architect actually do the transcoding to AVC if that's what you want to do.

Vegas 8.0c does NOT work with the MP4 raw files in the EX1r. The camera comes with Clipbrowser. It re-wraps the mpeg2 codec inside that mp4 container into an MXF container which 8.0c is able to ingest. There is no quality lost at this step, but it does take a bit of extra time.

I am using 8.0c at home and this is exactly the process I follow. No big deal really and actually has some advantages. Like being able to pre-trim footage, add essence marks, fix partially exposed frames from the rolling shutter, add metadata, select print takes from non-print, etc. It's a nice way to work.

I can't give you any advice about Bootcamp. Others will have to chime in on it.

Oh, and in regards to Cineform or other intermediates, you shouldn't need it, but read the Known Issues section of that version release. You can get out of memory errors trying to go from EX1 or HDV files to another long GOP codec like AVC. It's happened to me, and it's happened to others. So I do a lossless transcode to a intraframe codec, then transcode to AVC and that works. It's a PITA extra step that I shouldn't need to do but I plan for it anyway. If I am going to be applying any effects, I just do this anyway because I know it will be an issue.

A couple of notes. I think Edius is a nice application. It is not what I migrated to. I chose Avid for numerous reasons. I am glad you took the time to try Edius though and were able to see that some of your fears were perhaps unfounded. The current version of Edius is 5.5, but I am not sure what you downloaded. This version can edit several streams AVCHD files without transcoding if you're on a decent machine.

Edius offers a 30day trial. So does Avid. Premiere in Adobe's infinite wisdom offers NO trial. Other than Vegas, these programs do have a more structured feel, and a more structured workflow. Obviously some will not like that. However, it also contributes to their being stable, it contributes to their ability to be used by people used to that style of editing (many professionals), and for those NOT used to Vegas, it's likely easier to pick up.

All of these editors have various ways to accomplish tasks. I was quite surprised to see Avid had about as many ways to do various tasks as Vegas did. Vegas is not unique in that regard though some seem to believe it is.

All I am saying is though Vegas has a lot of really nice features, TRY other programs and see what they have to offer. Dispel all the internet hoopla and get your hands on different things. You might be pleasantly surprised.

Perrone,


First, I always appreciate your posts!!!!

this is frome your post:
rendering long-GOP codecs on the timeline produces out of memory errors on machines with 8GB of RAM or more (all flavors of V9),

Sene I have 10 gigs in my machine, If I move back to 6 I wont get these stupid out of memory issues??????



I tried the edius 5.0 Trial, did a project on it , and while I did not fallin love with it I did see its advantages and went ahead and purchased it.

Oh yea, I am 60 and find the type a wee small but felt I could get by (spend about 4 hours a day at the editor), and now I read you can change the type size. Will have to search that one out.

thank you for your valuable and interesting posts.


Dale Guthormsen

This was worded poorly on my part. I meant to say that EVEN on machines with plenty of RAM this is still an issue. Even with the 64bit version. I had an out of memory error last Friday working with 22 minutes of MXF files (right off the EX1) on my machine with 8GB of RAM. I was just trying to do a timecode window burn to 720p. I am working on a movie and wanted to prepare dailies for the director. The only effect was placing timecode on top of the videos.... Render failed 2 minutes in. That was in 64bit Vegas 9.0c by the way.

Perrone,

Well, Darn. I have been getting the memory issue prretty often!!!! Running 64 bit. I have reverted back to 8.0c for now.

When I get a chance I am going to do a totally clean install of the OS then just vegas and try it on again!!


DAle