Hi all, I need some help understanding something.

I am presently editing a job that I shot 1080 30p Long GOP 100 Mb/s. I have the footage on a "XDCAM HD422 1080p30 (50 Mb/s)" timeline in FCP. Everything is good. It looks great, plays back fine and edits easily. My initial fears of working in Long GOP are completely gone.

The question is about rendering effects. I have a choice to render in the XDCAM codec or in ProRes. Which is better/faster/easier? Any particular up or down sides to either?

Thanks!

ALWAYS render in ProRes when using any Long GOP format in FCP (from HDV onward). This will ensure that you are rendering frames rather than reconforming the GOP structure, which takes considerably longer than rendering.

Ned Soltz

Thanks, Ned.

So it's just pretty much speed related? No real difference in quality?

You can see a qualitative difference even in dissolves and fades. You are rendering in 10 bit with ProRes.

Make sure you set up your "Render Control" settings in your FCP User Preferences so you don't have to manually set it each time you create a new sequence.

-Andrew

Cool... done. Thanks!

Hi Bob,
Unless you need to deliver in XDCAM, edit directly in a Prores sequence.
Set "Render in High Precision".
rafael

Hey Rafael,

Background: I have FCP 7.0.2 and an AJA IoHD. I shot this footage with the nano at 1080 30p 100Mb/s.

So I experimented with a ProRes timeline set to "AJA IoHD:1080p 30 Apple ProRes 422". I get real time preview of video (green bar) and audio seems happy with a grey bar. It seems to happily edit. Real time FX, like 3-Way Color Corrector, doesn't give a real time preview... it sorta flashes between the pre-corrected look and the post-corrected one. (This is something i've noticed working with all Long GOP footage).

I rendered the 10 sec. test clip with no FX and it took about 12 secs... not bad. So what's the advantage of the ProRes timeline. The only penalty I can see is a small render hit.

Thanks for your help!

Hi Bob,
Rendering a clip without any kind of effect is just a transcoding.
I don't think is a test to compare codecs render speed.
Put another 10s sequence with NANO footage , with few cuts and export (no effects).
It make takes more than 12s, just to conform the MPEG-2; and there is no rendering.
I have an ioHD too, but i don't use any preset.
Normally I cut in the EX time-line and when I start to need to render I change to Prores in the Sequence Setting.
Normally the difference is noticeable. XDCAM is a pain to render to.
Anyway, as I said, I don't see the point to export to XDCAM unless you must deliver like that.
Whatever your workflow, it will be faster exporting a self-contained movie.
Sending an XDCAM sequence to Compressor to make a DVD or a web video is a no-no.
As Ned pointed out, you can let the sequence in EX, and set the renders to Prores. If this option exists is because that rendering is faster than XDCAM or HDV.
However this option is not much useful in the end.
If you export (EX), the Prores renders are lost.
Rafael

Anybody knows how the workflow behaves when you send your edited sequence to color, color correct it, render (set to ProRes) and then send it back to FC again.
does it preserves picture quality?

greetings

Thanks, Rafael. I'll give it a try!

Anybody knows how the workflow behaves when you send your edited sequence to color, color correct it, render (set to ProRes) and then send it back to FC again.
does it preserves picture quality?

greetings
Works great.
rafael

MOVED TO ITS OWN THREAD


"Is there a definitive list of the best settings to use in Final Cut with nanoFlash-recorded material? Or a tutorial video that covers this?"

JD

Hi Jeff,
Which problems do you find with the NANO workflow in FC?
Which is your final delivery format?
Rafael

Hi Rafael,

It's not that I have a specific problem. It's just that there are so many variables, so many settings to make in FCP that can affect the workflow and the final product. I gleaned an important one from Ned Soltz's post:

"ALWAYS render in ProRes when using any Long GOP format in FCP (from HDV onward). "

I think that if there was a way to combine all of the knowledge about working with nano files in FCP, it would benefit this entire community. It would probably also ease the tech support burden on the folks at CD.

Jeff

Hi Jeff,
The option pointed by Ned Soltz, is helpful because allows faster rendering: You keep your sequence native XDCAM, but the renders are done in Prores.
However this option have a shortcoming: These renders are just for preview. When you export the sequence, everything will be rendered again to the sequence codec (EX). This happens even if you export a "Reference Movie". So IMO this option is useful when you have to deliver in XDCAM or HDV.

For me so far the best system have been editing in a native sequence, and change the sequence codec to Prores.
If I'm just cutting, I keep the native codec till I have to export.
Normally I use Color in all my jobs. I cut native and send the sequence to Color.
When the sequence have more effects, layers, graphics, etc, that needs rendering, I change the sequence codec from the beginning. You get the same benefits of the option suggested by Ned, but you don't lose the renders.
Anyway for me the most important is not to keep these renders or not, but to have enough RT and work fast. Normally before the final export I trash all the renders. For the master export I set "Render in High Precision", and "Render Motion Effects: BEST".
Those setting improves the rendering, but also slow it down. Set them on just before exporting the sequence.
rafael

Hmmm... what you are saying Rafael, NOW sorta makes sense to me. Here's why.

I am editing my first job with nano footage... 1080 30p Long GOP 100Mb/s. I used Ned's method and edited on an XDCAM timeline and set the rendering to Apple ProRes. Mostly high quality interviews and b-roll. After the basic edit was done, all of the clips were treated with a few Tiffen Dfx filters as well as 3-Way color corrector. All went well and the renders were pretty fast as you indicated.

The "problem" is final export. Regardless of whether I use the "Current Settings" or an Apple ProRes settings, the entire timeline has to be re-rendered... again, as you indicated... a major time suck!

So, the method you suggest... putting the XDCAM footage on a ProRes timeline from the start... will save this render time on final export because the ProRes renders are final, not previews? If so, that's the way to go. I also just did some quick tests with the XDCAM footage on a ProRes timeline and the footage plays back fine in real time, displaying only a green (preview) render bar at the top of the timeline. That gives you speed for the initial edit. Once treated with filters, you lose that. But you can't have it both ways! Is all this correct?

One interesting note and question. Whenever I used a "real time" (bolded) video filter like 3-Way Color Corrector, it doesn't work in real time. It sorta flashes slightly. Is this because i am working with Long GOP footage that has to be constantly decoded, negating the real-time filters?

Thanks!

So let's say that you have a situation like I do right now. I have a XDCAM timeline where the renders have been done in ProRes. And I'm gonna take a render hit on final export, regardless of what codec I use. So what's the "best" codec to use? "Best" would be defined as the sweet spot between quality and render time, favoring quality.

Just trying to figure out a workflow here... any suggestion welcome!

Bob,
In the end a codec is like a container.
Its allows a certain quality; if you want more quality you need a bigger container.
You start withe the quality of your picture.
When you CC, you are adding something to your picture. You need room for that.
If after CC, adding effects, graphics or whatever you compress again, you are crunching a lot of what you just had added.
If you shot in a 411/420 format, render at least in a 422 format.
If you shoot in 8b, render in 10b. Try to avoid re-compression; whenever you have to send stuff from one application to other, try to do it as uncompressed as possible.
The only format that do not produce degradation when rendering is 444 Uncompressed (even 422 Uncompressed rendering degrades the picture).
We can not work in 444, neither in 422 Uncompressed. The closest option we have is Prores.
Is a great solution. Is to you to chose between the different flavors. I work with Prores HQ.

About your rendering problems (green line etc), I don't know which computer are you using.
I work with a MBP (two years old) and I can put a couple of layers with 3W-CC, crop and a Boris 3D title on top, and I have RT (green line).
You may need a bit of System maintenance (Permissions, DiskWarior,..).
rafael

Remember the other part of Real Time editing of large data rate files such as Pro Res is the data rate the drive or drives that the timeline accesses.

High speed large data rates from raids arrays with their own controller cards capable of 600mbps or more definitely improve your RT capability. If an expensive raid is not possible, then lower end raids are still better or even a separate fast drive that is different from the operating drive. But if you are trying to edit files stored on the same drive as the operating system and editing application, you will not achieve much RT with large date rate files like ProRes or much of anything for that matter.

Is a great solution. Is to you to chose between the different flavors. I work with Prores HQ. rafael

So, essentially you are saying to edit the XDCAM footage in a ProResHQ timeline. That will:
- give reasonable real-time performance
- result in higher quality
- preserve the renders during final export

Yes?

Thanks!

Remember the other part of Real Time editing of large data rate files such as Pro Res is the data rate the drive or drives that the timeline accesses..

Hey John,

No troubles here with data throughput. I have a Rorke HDx with FibreChannel. Fast.

Thanks!

So, essentially you are saying to edit the XDCAM footage in a ProResHQ timeline. That will:
- give reasonable real-time performance
- result in higher quality
- preserve the renders during final export

Yes?

Thanks!
Is like that Bob; However as i said, I recommend you render in "High Precission" (32b FP).

This will slow the rendering down although ensures a better rendering.
Normally during editing I render just to have an idea of how things will look.
In the end I set "High Precision" and I re-render all the sequence.
rafael

Cool! Thanks, Rafael!