I just a wireless mic but another videographer I know uses a Digital Voice Recorder/MP3 player. Just wondering any thoughts concerning the 2. Thank you.

Just remember this, you will never have drop outs with a digital recorder.

Is the sound quality equal?

In my opinion depending on the type of recorder it can exceed the audio quality of a wireless mic audio quality. The H4n's are really nice recorders, the H2 is very nice as well. The reason why I prefer my wireless mics is that the audio is automatically synced with the video. Where as you have to sync the audio of the recorder in post. One other thing is that with a audio recorder that is one more thing to lose :'(

Digital Recorder: less expensive, no dropouts, but you have to spend time syncing in post.
Wireless: costs more, could have dropouts, but audio is always in sync.

Personally, I'd rather use a wireless because of the syncing issue - that's a big hassle. But you probably need to spend 5x-10x more for a good wireless system than for an acceptable iRiver mp3 recorder.

I've never had a dropout with my Sennheiser wireless, but my first Azden system was terrible.

I use both during the ceremony, but I have been very happy with my digital recorder. I don't find it difficult to sync and it just gives me peace of mind (the no drop-outs part). Another benefit of using a DR rather than a receiver/transmitter is that it frees up one of my cameras to pick up other audio with a shotgun mic. Of course, with a wireless, you can monitor things. Might just come down to my own personal preference though.

I think its nice to have both, I use a wirless mic on the officiant and a digital recorder on the groom. Gives you two options and sync is easy when you have two mics so close togther.

A subconscious "punishment" has been the tedium of synchronizing audio from a recorder to the video. PluralEyes from Singular software has greatly simplified this. It synchronizes multiple tracks for you. I recently edited a five camera plus two audio recorder production of a stage play. Three of the cameras were HDV tape with three tapes per track. The other two cameras were tapeless. A job of this size and complexity would take quite a while to manually synchronize the tracks. With PluralEyes, it was easy and painless.

PluralEyes makes it easier to make the decision to use a recorder because it makes track synchronizing easy. Currently, it only runs on Final Cut Pro and Vegas Pro although I believe they are working on support for other NLE's. I lean more to using recorders now that I use PluralEyes. My concern with wireless is the possibility of interference at a bad moment. The worst is, "Do you Mike take Sue as your wife?" - - "Hiss, pop, crackle." People sometimes say they like to use wireless because they can monitor it on their camera. But if you are shooting a wedding ceremony and hear interference on your camera, what are you going to be able to do about it!? Wireless still has its place but for me, just fewer places.

Michael, do a quick search as this topic has been discussed A LOT on here. There are some great threads with lots of info out there already.

To answer your question, we use digital voice recorders. We've been using DVR's in place of wireless mics for like 6 years now. When we started doing it everyone was telling us we were crazy since we couldn't monitor the audio. But it just works so well.

Yes, you have to sync the audio in post, but we find it only takes us maybe an extra 10-15 minutes total per wedding to do all of the sync work (manually, mind you). We'll take that extra 10-15 minutes of work to have perfect audio to work with.

Oh, and DVR's are much less expensive than a nice wireless set.

I forgot to mention - We've got a couple H4Ns that we use and are very happy with, but we've also actually used the newest iPod Touch on occasions as a back-up as well. Anybody else experimented with this? I just used a lav mic (requires adapter to work with iPod) and the Griffin iTalk Pro app. No limit on record time, records in AIFF, and the iPod can be locked, which means it shouldn't unexpectedly stop recording. Probably not a great idea for your primary recording device, but it works ok.

Adapter:
Griffin Technology | SmartTalk Headphone Adapter | 3016-SMRTLKB

All my wireless mics are being retired this year. I'm going with multiple Yamaha PockeTrak CX recorders (now on sale because of a new model) and Giant Squid microphones. Along with my Zoom H4n and Zoom H2 for musicians I'll have a minimum of 4 DR working.

I just picked up PluralEyes and it works great ... well worth the $150.

Have to agree with Travis. We have been using the Marantz PMD 660 for audio at the ceremony and speeches. We also use Sennheiser Wireless Mics, but we find the Marantz trounces the sennheiser!

No problems with synching in post, frame accurate every time.

Here is a short clip with the voiceover from the marantz. It may take a while to view as it's converting now!

PASSWORD: test


This is a password protected video on Vimeo

I just a wireless mic but another videographer I know uses a Digital Voice Recorder/MP3 player. Just wondering any thoughts concerning the 2. Thank you.Well Michael for the first time in my years of filming events, I had massive dropouts and static with both my wireless system at a gig in a catholic church. I don't know what was causing both systems to go on the fritz but had those two been digital voice recorders I'd had no problems.

Monday

I have been using voice recorder at ceremony for years. Works great for me.

Wireless Mics vs Voice Recorders | L.A. Color Blog (http://lacolorshop.com/blog/view.asp?id=13)

I never find synchronizing is a problem. It's really easy by matching the waveform display in timeline. I just look for the "you may kiss the bride" moment follow with applause. it's really easy to sync.

I have a similar story to Mondays.

After 15 years of weddings 1 am convinced that the frequencies for our mics (here in Australia) are getting too crowded, and i'm getting more and more intermittent dropouts, which I put down to overcrowding, as I've spent several nights watching TV with my camera next to me, and no matter how much fiddling I do, can't get any dropouts there.

Anyway, several weeks ago, a beautiful winery outside Melbourne, late bride, plenty of time to set up groom's lapel, test with the lay preacher and his mic.....then the service!

All went perfectly until the vows when he reached over with his large hand held transmitter P.A.mic within a few inches of the lapel for the groom's response.

All hell broke loose in my headphones! The signal was about 400% overmodulated and nearly blew my head off. I had to literally pull the mic cable out of the camera to stop it leaking through.

(and I do my weddings on a mono pod! Imagine the picture shake for a moment!).

When I checked it in the computer it was so loud the limiter flattened both channels so far I lost the good sound from my Senheiser shotgun as well, so I went from excellent sound to STUFFED in one foul swoop, and ONLY when the preacher reached out his microphone to either the bride or groom. When he talked into it for the rest of the ceremony it was perfect. (I'll have to get them into the studio to fix it).

Thats the first time in 15 years doing events I've had the hand held PA mic literally "take over" my lapel transmitter, so I'm thinking its time to join most others here and move to using my H2 instead.

Cheers,

Vaughan

wowo I'm sorry to hear that. I think no matter it's a voice recorder or wireless mic system, when things like that happen, you can't really do much. There're people disagree with me saying I can't monitor live audio using voice recorder. My defense would be, even if you can monitor live audio.. and if something goes wrong live, what can I do?

Check out this video

Lav Mic Failed in Action on Vimeo

Ok, I'm really close to jumping on board with using DVRs for wedding audio. I have 4 irivers with GS mics, but would love to use my 2 H2s as well. What lav mics do you recommend for them? There are so many choices and types that I have no clue where to start.

Check out my blog. I have a link point to the lav mic that I'm using

Wireless Mics vs Voice Recorders | L.A. Color Blog (http://lacolorshop.com/blog/view.asp?id=13)

I have a Tram TR-50 wired for Sennheiser, but it doesn't work in my Zoom H2. Seems like it plugs in all the way. Maybe I'm just a dunce, but I don't see why it wouldn't work perfectly.

Ok, I see why it's not working. Even with mic power turned on in the zoom h2, it just doesn't provide enough power for the tram tr-50 (that's what some audio guys at Sam Ash told me). So, I just bought a Sony PCM-M10 to try out, figuring I'll use it with my GS mics if the Tram doesn't work. It has a mic sensitivity switch that seems to boost the amount of phantom power provided. On High, it powers the Tram tr-50 perfectly fine, and it sounds incredible. I assumed that the mic sensitivity switch just applied gain to the mic signal, but I've test it both ways with my GS mics, and I don't hear any additional noise with it on High vs Low. Maybe my old ears aren't hearing the difference, and I don't have any fancy gear to test it, but I don't hear a difference at all.

Anyhow, I'm a happy camper now and will test this out on 2 grooms this long weekend.

To those using digital recorders; once the audio is in sync at the beginning, do you ever notice that the sync drifts out of sync as the timeline progresses?

To those using digital recorders; once the audio is in sync at the beginning, do you ever notice that the sync drifts out of sync as the timeline progresses?

It depends ... my iRiver used to drift quite a bit, Zoom H2 was really bad at keeping sync, my 3 Yamaha PockeTrak CX units have been a champ on my first couple of weddings and one dance recital.

for me there is no wireless mic vs digital recorder case.
wireless just allows me to put the mic where it is needed (the best place, near the source versus the worst place , on the camera).
And when connected to the camera, it is digital recorded anyway. Bonus is the sync with picture, and you still can monitor what you get.
I use sony uwp-c1 and v1 and never get a drop. and if i would have one, i just pop out the plugs and go to the camera's mic, takes 3 secondes.
On the other side digital recorder can be great too, but for a totally different use.
I use sometime my iRiver (get 3 of them) to capture sound without using the camera (background sound).
The problem with digital recorder is if you let them unattended, you do not know if something is going wrong. I would use anyway a wireless with a digital recorder just to be able to monitor what i am recording.

To those using digital recorders; once the audio is in sync at the beginning, do you ever notice that the sync drifts out of sync as the timeline progresses?

Yes, we deal with drift. Each recorder seems to have a slightly different rate of drift. So mark your recorders and figure out what each of their drift rates are. Then, as you edit future projects, you will know how much to adjust the speed of the audio for each recorder.

I have to adjust the speed of the audio clip from the Olympus recorder from 100% to 100.06%. Then it will be a perfect sync.

I have several audio recordings going n at the same time. Never miss a thing. In the UK frequencies are getting crowded. A wedding videgrapher friend of mne has had a "sonic boom" several times this year in church. He uses the Sennheissers. I have the American Lectrosonics and they work of a different bandwidth and I am yet to have any problems.

I also use a Edirol R-09 recorder. Brilliant. Place it on the lecturn for all the readings and use it at the specches at reception. Saves wiring up the best man.

Use both. Safety in numbers. Takys video disaster clip where the groom started fidling could easily have been avoided with a recorder placed close by.

I have to adjust the speed of the audio clip from the Olympus recorder from 100% to 100.06%. Then it will be a perfect sync.

THAT is great information. I use Olympus recorders too. Thank you so much for posting that.

Again, the adjustment is going to vary per recorder. For the two Olympus DS30's that we use the adjustments are 100.18% and 100.12%. You're going to have to figure out the drift for your own recorders unfortunately.

I agree on that. You might have to experiment your own to find out the speed value. It isn't difficult at all.

Again, the adjustment is going to vary per recorder. For the two Olympus DS30's that we use the adjustments are 100.18% and 100.12%. You're going to have to figure out the drift for your own recorders unfortunately.

Hey Travis, and anyone else. I have a couple of Irivers, I would imagine that the main difference between my irivers and the olympus is what you talked about, the adjustment you can do. So, is there any Olympus out there that you don't have to adjust? Something like this that records in WMA? WS-600S (http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/product.asp?product=1514)

I haven't looked into the newer models that Olympus has so I don't know. Maybe jump on their website and check them out?

Thanks Travis. I had already looked. I'll see if I can figure it out.

No problem. I wish I could have given you an answer but I just haven't had time to research the newer stuff. Let us know what you find out. d;-)

I called Olympus and they advised me of two models, the DM-520 which is here DM-520 Specs (http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/product.asp?product=1473&page=specs)

and the LS-10 LS-10 (http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/product.asp?product=1350)

My hope is to replace my Irivers with something that I don't have to audio stretch etc. With me, I don't mind spending the extra money if I can save time in the edit room.

During the ceremony and the reception I always connect the zoom to the DJ board and get great sound. For backup i wire the groom with digital recorder.
The zoom is 100% perfect with my camera and no adjustment in post. the Olympus need some adjustment but I always and up using the zoom only.
with Sony veges and plural eyes, sync is not an issue.
I think that if you don't have a very high end wireless Mic the best is to use digital recorder.
I have video sample of the reception when the zoom was connected to the DJ board.
Israeli Wedding in Miami By Dror Levi On ExposureRoom (http://exposureroom.com/members/Dror/d967187a31b645f3bfe0b4a7d3db1384/)

Yeah, audio has been a beast for me. I've spent years with these stupid air frequencies around here. I work in a crappy area. So I can have good audio off my Sennheisers and then boom, drop out for no reason at all. I've gone as far as have a Sennhieser rep help me out, but if I am in this stupid town, I will get random drops, but then again, maybe not. No rhyme or reason to it.

I have a pair of Zoom H1s that I use for ambient stuff, like special music or readings.

The timing of this thread reappearing has been perfect, because I am at this decision right now as well.

Like most, I am looking at the audio quality/cost ratio too. It appears from what everyone is saying, I can get equal or better audio from two DVR setups for less than the cost of one Sennheiser. Please correct me if I am making that wrong assumption.

My question which is a bit off topic, how do you go about calculating the drift ???

Some time back I had heard about drift, and in that thread drift was considered reason enough to not go DVR, but wireless. There was no discussion in that thread of how to calculate it or how to deal with it in post. General discussion was more of the "just stay away" nature.

Another question in this same vane, once you have the drift calculated, exactly how do you adjust, or what do you adjust in post to compensate for it ???

Thanks all !!!!!

It depends on which NLE you use to tweek the speed of the clip. For Premiere, right click on the clip in timeline and select Audio speed or something.

I line up the clip at the beginning. while synch, then checked the end to see how far it went. Then keep adjusting the speed. That's how I found out my Olympus voice recorder record in WMA will need the speed set to 100.06

My H2 recorded in mp3 which synch perfectly without the need to adjust speed.

I called Olympus and they advised me of two models, the DM-520 which is here DM-520 Specs (http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/product.asp?product=1473&page=specs)

and the LS-10 LS-10 (http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/product.asp?product=1350)

My hope is to replace my Irivers with something that I don't have to audio stretch etc. With me, I don't mind spending the extra money if I can save time in the edit room.

I like the DM-520 except it doesn't show support for the Mac platform. That doesn't necessarily mean it won't work, but $200 is a lot to just give it a shot. I like that it has a smaller form factor than the LS-10, and it only takes AAA batteries so it's even lighter. I wish the LS-10 had specs for it's frequency range like the DM-520 does, just for comparison. Range is really important. I'm assuming it must be similar or better given it costs a 1/3 more.

EDIT: was doing more digging and even though the official specs don't show support for the Mac, in the overview it claims compatibility. So I'd go with the DM-520 I think.

FYI to anyone, I was using DM-420 at one point and I was getting weird static (what sounds like drop-outs). Although, I wasn't exactly sure what was happening and I didnt want to take up time to figure it out so I returned it. Now I have a Zoom H4N and although these things are great, they are a bit bulky to have a groom wear it. What I miss about the features of the Olympus is how small it was to conceal. The batteries also lasted very long.

Hi Chris,

That's odd about the DM420. I've been using three of them for quite a while and haven't had (luckily) the problem you had. Are you sure it was rubbing against something like the corsage? Or was it happening all the time at every event?

Chris, your situation sounds like maybe an issue with the wire for your lav. Perhaps it is damaged internally from getting bent? It's also possibly an issue with the DVR itself, although I'd guess it's the lav wire.

I agree that the H4n is pretty bulky to use on a groom or officiant. I would see if you can get your hands on a different mic (preferably new) and try your Olympus again.

I should have been more clear on how I set it up. During the ceremony, it was hooked up to the church's PA system via 1/8 TRS plug. During the reception, it was also hooked up on the DJ's output via RCA to 1/8 TRS. I didn't get to use it on the groom via lav mic since I already had them hooked up to a Sennheiser wireless mic. The "dropouts" were happening both during the ceremony and the reception. It could possibly be that it was a bad DVR since it was happening at random times. I have to admit though I did really like the device's form factor.

are you recording in WAVE format?

i believe it was mp3 not wav.

It depends on which NLE you use to tweek the speed of the clip. For Premiere, right click on the clip in timeline and select Audio speed or something.

I line up the clip at the beginning. while synch, then checked the end to see how far it went. Then keep adjusting the speed. That's how I found out my Olympus voice recorder record in WMA will need the speed set to 100.06

My H2 recorded in mp3 which synch perfectly without the need to adjust speed.

Thanks Taky, I too use Premiere.

Did Premiere show the number 100.06 as you adjusted the speed, or was that a calculation you arrived at via doing a math equation ??? I am assuming that is 100.06%, correct ???

are you recording in WAVE format?

This may be a stupid question, but is there a "preferred" format to use ???

Typically I would go with WAV over mp3 to maximize quality over file size, if I had that option.

Thanks Taky, I too use Premiere.

Did Premiere show the number 100.06 as you adjusted the speed, or was that a calculation you arrived at via doing a math equation ??? I am assuming that is 100.06%, correct ???

I calculated this number myself as I try different number so the clip is synch perfectly. Funny after I typed 100.06, premiere will not show the value (or it just round up.. not sure).

also, this is from my particular model of my recorder. You should try out your own to find out if the drift occured.

This may be a stupid question, but is there a "preferred" format to use ???

Typically I would go with WAV over mp3 to maximize quality over file size, if I had that option.

I read from my H2 zoom recorder, sometimes recording in WAVE file the memory card has problem catching up the high data rate.. thus drop out occurred. I recorded in mp3 in 256kbps. sounds good to me,

Drop out and interference has caused me too many problems so I use 2 olympus WS-311M recorders and a ZoomH2 for more ambient stuff - you'll need to re-time a litle in post but they have never let me down

Pete