I've been doing a lot of reading about mic selection. The conventional wisdom to capture interviews, indoors in an on-location (event) scenario seems to be a Hypercardioid. I would have to deal with whatever type of room I might find myself in. There seems to be good reviews on the AT 4053b. If I want to take the audio to the next level what would be a good choice ($900 - $1200 zone)? Looks like the Schoeps CMC641 with an MK41 is probably awesome although I've seen it described as a Supercardioid as well as a Hypercardioid. Plus it's really out of the budget for now. Ideas?

Hi Robert:

In your range, I would seriously consider...

1. RØDE NTG-3
2. Sennheiser MKH-50
3. Sennhesier MKH-416

You are just under the sweet spot for industry standard mics like the Sanken CS3E ($1,400.00) and the Schoeps but I would consider shotguns as well. It is arbitrary to say that you can only use a cardioid variant for interiors or that you must use a shotgun outdoors.

Learn how to read polar patterns, they will tell you all you need to know about what a microphone will pick up, both in front of the element and behind it. Those microphones with a larger rear pickup will not work as well in live rooms but in a dead or well insulated room, a shotgun can often work great. I inlcuded polar patterns as well as different samples for each microphone that I tested here As I Hear It - Choosing the Right Microphone (http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/right_mic_brockett.html)

Also, listen with your ears, not your wallet. It is great that you have a decent budget to acquire a new microphone but you may hear a lower cost microphone that speaks to your ear as well, allowing you to budget correctly. Your budget should include a high quality mic support, wind protection, a good mic boom pole and quality cables as well as the mic itself.


Dan Brockett

I agree with Dan.

I invested in both, the AT4053a and the NTG-3.
I always compare on location (indoors usually) and I have not once used my AT4053A.
It's kinda disappointing actually, I've been thinking of selling it for quite a while.

The NTG-3 is really that good a mic.

The mic pre-amp (and operator skill) is also a big factor.

Dan - I have read Ken Stone's page multiple times. Really amazing information. I actually considered the Sanken CS3E but all I keep hearing (no pun intended) is that it's a shotgun and not the best to use indoors. I understand every on-location situation is different. I also plan to build up a better audio kit. What I need first is a mic i can use indoors, in different type of environments, to capture interviews from either one or a couple of people. It seems like putting a 4053b on a boom would work (I was looking at the Manfrotto 420b). I also understand the law of diminished returns. Price is a factor but I would consider the Sanken CS3E if it afforded the type of results I'm looking for. I'm certainly not an expert in the audio field so I'm trying to learn as much as possible to make the best decision.

Craig - I think I'll take another look at the NTG-3 (thanks)

Rick - No doubt the mic pre-amp is a big factor. For many scenarios I know I'll be using my Edirol R-44 which does a pretty good job.

The Sanken CS3E has three (3) capsules, and is less prone to the usual single capsule interference tube mic abnormalities. ie; 'early reflections' Much of the side and rear noise cancellations are done electronically opposed to acoustically.

Rick has it right. From my experience, the CS3E does pretty well on interiors.

If you have your heart set on a cardioid variant, I would also seriously consider the Sennheiser MKH-50, that is a really sweet mic and somewhat of an industry standard. I have seen them working on plenty of network shows and features, tough to go wrong with that one.

Good luck,

Dan

I highly recommend the AT4053b for indoor use. I have that as well as the Rode NTG-3 and between the tow I can handle most any room. True you can get away with usable sound sometimes indoors with the NTG-3. but there are issues with shotguns. Those slits on the side that help a shotgun reject side noise, also create an out-of-phase sound when reflections bounce off a wall/floor/ceiling and it those slits. Sometimes it's subtle, sometimes not. Doing post audio for films I hear the hollow sound of misused shotguns often, and there is no fixing it. Just get the right tools for your audio kit and don't believe that one shotgun is all you need.

Here's some testing I did when I first got the AT4053b. It does NOT display the flangey sound of a shotgun getting wall reflections, but when you have one on a moving boom you run into it more often.

Hyper & Shotgun Indoor Shootout: AT4053b Vs. Rode NT3 AND NTG-2 Vs. NTG-3 on Vimeo

... Looks like the Schoeps CMC641 with an MK41 is probably awesome although I've seen it described as a Supercardioid as well as a Hypercardioid. Plus it's really out of the budget for now. Ideas?

This is anecdotal since its out of your budget, but I sat down with my $200 Oktava and my $1700 schoeps and recorded this a few weeks ago. Its normal boom placement on both.

http://www.lakeflyproductions.com/stuff/oktavaschoeps.wav

You can hear the difference. But I'd imagine only way you hear a $1500 worth of difference is if somebody is paying you to deliver the difference. For legibility and function, either mic would work just fine.

I'm not arguing for the merits of either of these mics, just showing the two extremes and how a 4053 would probably sit right in the middle of those two mics.

However, if i could start over now knowing what I know, I would buy a cs3e before the oktava, schoeps or at 4073a. I like all three of those mics, but for video work? I think the cs3e does more to make your job easier, and at the moment that seems to be worth more to me than the nuances that please the audiophiles in the audience.

But thats me..

I have an NTG-3 and am looking for an interior mic. Compared to the MKH8050, MKH50, Schoeps CMC641, is the CS3E really that great of a mic (after I learn to contol it properly) that I should buy it instead of a hyper? Or at this point, should I just practice handling with my NTG-3 and buy some lavs?

Thanks for your time

Will

Phew! Somebody talking sense at last! Andrew's comment on $1500 difference is well put. In fact, I'd go further. They sound different, but which is better? Blind testing on audio equipment isn't done that often. A friend of mine in his audio studio leaves a Neumann U87 on the stand all the time, but next to it is an Audio Technica AT4033 - which is the one he always uses as he likes it's sound so much - the Neumann is in effect, a prop! (Looks good in the pictures too!)

William

I have no experience with the CS3E, but it's supposed to be a great sounding shotgun that also is able to perform well indoors where other shotguns fail. So it's an all around good mic, and I wouldn't mind having one myself. However you do have a great sounding shotgun now with the NTG-3. That I can vouch for. And It doesn't do so bad indoors either. The thing with shotguns is there is eventually going to be some combination of reflective surfaces that don't interact well with the slits on the side of the shotgun causing some sort of put-of-phase type artifact. You can test a shotgun inside, and it may well perform well (as in my video above) but when you are shooting all over with a moving boom you never know what you'll encounter. That's why people go with a hypercardioid for indoor use, as it deals with reflections in a natural sounding way. I can also vouch for the AT4053b hyper, as I own one, and I think it sounds great. They run between 400 - 500 bucks. I'm sure there are better ones out there too. I'm just saying if you already have a shotgun for outdoor use, maybe you should get a mic designed for indoor use next. The trinity of mics for video is Shotgun, Hyper & Lav, so I suggest that everyone have at lease those three types of mics to start with, then expand out from there.

Looks like the Audix SCX-1 is a good choice too...

So a cs3e or a hyper?

I guess this helps:

Current gear- NTG3, H4n, x1 Senn G2 w/ stock mic

I bought the NTG3 for damp outdoor situations and was surprised when helping on a short film the director used it for his interior dialogue situations. I want a hyper for 'worry free' dialogue, and would like something as durable as the NTG3. The CS3e sounds like a great, durable mic, but at a glance looks spec wise comparable to the NTG3, so I'm wondering if the CS3e purchase is redundant. BUT the CS3e keeps appearing in the hyper posts I'm finding.

I'm going to use the mic in various indoor, non-studio locations, but would like to use it in a wet cave should one present itself.

Thanks again for your help.

Looks like the Audix SCX-1 is a good choice too...

So a cs3e or a hyper?

... The CS3e sounds like a great, durable mic, but at a glance looks spec wise comparable to the NTG3, so I'm wondering if the CS3e purchase is redundant. BUT the CS3e keeps appearing in the hyper posts I'm finding.

I'm going to use the mic in various indoor, non-studio locations, but would like to use it in a wet cave should one present itself.

Thanks again for your help.

The CS3 LOOKS like an interference-tube shotgun but it really isn't one, using a different physical principle to get its directivity. If there's any universal mic for both interior and exterior work, this is probably it. It has the supercardioid pattern of the shots with the good behaviour amidst reflections of the hypers.

The CS 3e is a truly remarkable mic. It rivals most hypers in indoor situations and is at the top of the shotgun selections. For many of my projects, corporate interviews, and indie movies with both interior and exterior shots, I use the Sanken for 99% of my boomed shots. The only thing I am not sure about and am not willing to find out is how durable it is in hostile environments. That's what I keep an Senn ME66 for.

The characteristics of the CS 3e does make it easier for my sound guys as the side rejection is very good. The main reason I went with the CS 3e is its versatility. I often have to be able to go from very different environments and really can't afford the extra time to change out mics. For me, this along with the great sound of the Sanken make it worth the cost. But, only you can judge if it is worth it on your audio demands and your production work practices.

-Garrett

Man the more I hear about it, the more I want a CS-3e.

Chad's phrase "the flangey sound of a shotgun getting wall reflections" is I think very apt. I'd been hearing that sound off and on ever since I started out with an ME66. But I never really knew what it was from. It would appear in some boom positions but not others. Yes, I think it's the destructive interference of interference-tube microphones causing comb filtering, perhaps with effects as air passes over the interference tubes during boom movement, causing response anomalies.

Today I got a chance to use the CS-3e for the first time, indoors in a home. I was truly amazed at the lack of those flangey sounds, in comparison with the ME66. It was just easier to get good sound, less "oh it doesn't sound good here lets try another position". And a bit less of that flangey distortion while moving the boom, which allowed me to follow an actor with the boom whereas with my ME66 I would have probably held the boom still to avoid that sound.

I can't financially justify a CS-3e right now for myself but it really is night and day better at rejecting what you want to reject. I did notice it was a bit more directive than the ME66, but the ability to move it through the air without as many wind/flangey noises makes up for that in some situations.

It turns out the Mic I was using was the one that Garrett bought from Guy's (the same one in Guy's video), so maybe we just happened upon a magic sample. I'm not saying I never hear that flangey sound with the CS-3e, but it happens only maybe 30% as often as with the ME66. Here's to hoping that I can buy this one used when Garrett upgrades to a Shoeps :-)

@ Tom - Don't hold your breath waiting for me to sell my CS-3e. I don't think I'll have enough money to buy a Super-CMIT for a long time. You'll turn blue before that. ;-)

-Garrett

...so maybe we just happened upon a magic sample.

Definitely not a magic sample. The CS-3e achieves its magic by rolling off not just the highs but the mids and lows as well as you go off axis. It's not perfect in this regard, but it's night and day compared to a typical interference tube shotgun. The magic is built into the 3-capsule design.

I still remember the first time I used a narrow interference-tube shotgun. The room had a bad echo and a terribly loud HVAC system. I figured that a narrow-pattern shotgun would be perfect for isolating the voice. We bought the AT815b. Man, was I disappointed when I heard the muddy rumble and flanged vocal sounds! I was never going to get studio quality sound in that room, but a CS-3e and some blankets would probably have done pretty well.

Sorry to bring up an old thread. I'm looking for an indoor/outdoor mic that will be on a boom. How well does the Sanken CS-3e sound for interior/exterior vs. going w/ a Rode NTG-3 for exteriors and AT4053b for interiors?

I'm sure I'm biased since I own a Sanken but I prefer the CS-3e over the 4053b but there are situations where the 4053b does a better job. Between the NTG-3 and CS-3e there is a pretty big difference. The CS-3e has better side rejection and does not suffer from proximity effect as much as the NTG-3. For me the next jump for interior recording will be to acquire a Scheops CMC641, and if I were to go for another shotgun it would be to something crazy like a Scheops SuperCMIT 2U, if I hit the lottery.

Here's an example of the CS-3e in interior locations.

Sanken CS-3e example - YouTube

For the male in the live room, first thing I noticed was the slight echo w/ the Sanken which did a good job in dampening it. How would a hypercardoid such as the AT4053b performed in this same situation?

The CS-3e perfomed well in in the female footage.

Thank you for posting this comparison. Definitely Schoeps CMC641 and CMIT5u for interiors and exteriors once the budget allows.

Just for reference, here's my demo video f the AT4053b on 3 voices. Miked just out of frame, maybe a little higher. Within 18" I'm fairly sure.

AT4053b Demo - 3 voices. on Vimeo

Interesting discussion. I have both the NTG-3 and AT4053b and would recommend both microphones. Both are excellent performers.

Several years ago, I PMd Garrett Low and asked for a recommendation within a 'specified budget' for a Shotgun Mic and a remote Lav system. He recommended the RODE NTG-3 and the Sennheiser ew 100 ENG G3 Wireless Microphone System. At the time, I believe Garrett said, 'You'd have to spend a considerably larger sum of money to beat the performance of the NTG-3'. Or, words to that effect. Both, microphones have served me well, while at the same time not completely emptying my bank account.

Now, that my ears are a little better trained, I 'hear' the shortcomings of both systems. However, do I get $1,500 to $2,000 less performance from either system? Not at this point! I'd like to have some of the better performing microphones, but an increase in performance vs. the cost is just not required for what I do. And that's a key point. If you 'need the performance' of the Sanken, Schoeps or another high-end microphone for your production, then by all means, get it.

On the other hand, I don't care if you've got the greatest microphone made on the planet, nothing can ruin a very good video like poor audio recording technique. Conversely, if you've got 'good' equipment and 'good technique', you can achieve excellent results.

I also have an impedance matched pair of AKG c414XLS and AKG c451 B. But, these are for special occasions where I'm recording acoustic music or if I have access to a studio.

Regards,

J.

It's hard to really compare without a side by side comparison like some of the other ones that Chad has done. For the interview with the male, the room was super live. Even a great hyper like the CMC641 would have some problems in there without some serious sound treatment. This was the lobby of one of the the Treatment Clinics at Stanford University. It was on a Saturday so there was still some very light traffic so we couldn't totally take over the space and put up tones of sound blankets. There floor was tile, ceiling and walls all hard surfaces. It looked great for the subject matter but a nightmare from a sound perspective.

The Female video was shot in her living room which was much more intimate and had a lot more soft nice absorbing materials. There was still a hint of reverb in the room and there was a couple of frequencies where the room would ring but overall not bad.

The thing I like about the Sanken is that it gives a really nice full tone and it has one of the best side rejections out there. It also maintains tonal consistency better than a lot of other mics. So if you're slightly off axis it isn't going to penalize you as much.

If I had a CMC641 I'm sure I would have used it in both situations. But, budget doesn't allow it right now.

James, you hit the nail on the head. First and foremost, technique will win out over any priced equipment. Take a $4000 mic and just plunk it down anywhere an you'll most likely get crappy sound. Take care with a $200 mic and you'll be superior sound. Take care with a $4000 mic and you'll get superb sound. Will you hear $3800 worth of difference. Probably not.

For me the key is if the piece of equipment will pay for itself. If my clients demanded that I use a $4000 mic and I could recoup the cost in a reasonable amount of time, I would invest in it. The reason I went with the Sanken was that I was able to find it at a good price and it yielded enough gains over my previous mic (ME66/K6) that it was worth the expense. Doing corporate videos I often shoot in less than ideal locations. The Sanken was the mic that allowed me to make the interviewer sound good and gave me enough versatility to be able to use it in several situations.

That said, if I hadn't found a good price on the Sanken I would have probably gone with the NTG-3. I've also got a couple other mics I use for various other recording needs so if you are serious about getting good recording you are not going to only have one mic. That's be like saying I'm only going to have one lens to shoot every video. At least that's my opinion.

Based on Chad's video, don't spend more money on mics. Spend money on shoes. They seem to make good diffusers. :)

I was thinking the same thing! Those shoes made the room sound professionally treated.

Based on Chad's video, don't spend more money on mics. Spend money on shoes. They seem to make good diffusers. :)

Yeah, but with the price of shoes now a days you'll spend more than $4000 on them.