Hello,

today I got a Tiffen T1 4x4 for use with the ex1 after I've shot on stage and got a completely brown background :(

That, of course, should have been a black backdrop.
Suprisingly the customer didn't care :)

Today, I did a testsetup and that thing simply solves the problem. Incredible.
Why isn't Sony including that in the camera.

And what I wonder now:
As the filter was pretty expensive, will there be use of it on other or future cameras ?
Or do You think next generation will have that problem solved anyway.

Thanks!

Peter

I am undecided whether to try that filter on my EX1 (weekend after next) for a Dance Recital I have to shoot. Another poster seemed to feel that it would impart a green caste to the footage that is impossible to remove.

Did you experience that for the stage production you shot with the filter?

Thanks,

John

The T1 is slightly green but the idea is to white balance through it then it goes away. I haven't tried using preset then moving it a little to the magenta but that probably will also work.

A Schneider 486 filter will leave you with a slight green vignette that is very hard if not impossible to get rid of but T1 will be fine if you correct for it. Its not brain surgery .

There is also another Schneider but I haven't tried it. The T1 should work fine for you though and I wouldn't shoot without it against a black cloth backdrop or a dance scene with black costumes.

Given that you got a 4x4 mattebox filter, you will probably get more use out of the IR filter than most who are buying the screw on filter. CMOS chips aren't going away for a few years at least.

I first used the IR filter on one of my EX1s a few weeks ago. It made a significant difference. I actually purchased a second one today for my other camera. I wouldn't shoot without it. I haven't had a problem with any green color whatsoever. I do a lot of white balancing.

I also use the T1 filter on my EX3. I have spent ages matching the images to another camera by setting up a picture profile. I'm pretty sure I had to add alot of red to get them to match. Now if I white balance the two cameras at the same time they look quite close. I prefer to dial in my white setting, B&W viewfinders is where I started, but I have found the EX3 very hard to match the other camera. I also must mention that one is a DSR and the other an EX3. Very different cameras I know but we use what is available on each shoot etc.

Yes, It's getting pretty green with the filter, but that something TIFFEN officially says. They recommend to do a white balance when inserting the filter. But I can handle that with no effort. :)

There is something new I am wondering and asking for Your ideas, please:

I would prefer to have a Tungsten and a Daylight-Picture Profile. As I prefer to shoot in that traditional way.
I guess it's not the same thing to do a white balance (which gives me a kelvin numer) as to dial in the same number manually in the picture profile. Right ?

I would like to have 2 addional picture profiles like: Tungsten + T1 and Daylight + T1 to quickly change setting on set.

Is there any way to get the Auto-White-Balance Values into the picture profile settings ?

Thanks!

Peter, the happy T1 user :)

Would you suggest leaving this filter on all the time? Does the screw-in model work with the lens hood?

The screw-in model works with the lens hood.

Personally, I don't leave it on all the time because I use other types of filtration; it's too much piling a polar or grad on top of the T1 because you're cutting down on light entry.

I've never had the green cast because I always W/B once it's on.

As I am using a M2e-Adapter with a Chrosziel Mattebox, I have 4x4 and 4x5.65 filters only. That results in a workflow of ofter changing and mixing various filters. Especially NDs.
So leaving it on is not really an option for my workflow.

But if You are doing event shooting and do white balancing all the time anyway, so why not leaving it on. Maybe I would do that.

Still I am interested in ideas for fixed correction-picture profiles.

Thanks!

Peter

I just got the Tiffen filtre and what a difference it makes. I was getting really tired of seeing a row of what was supposed to be black suits looking like a range of brown shades. I bought the screw-on filtre and I will be leaving it on for all my shooting.

Hi,

Couple of questions...

I already have the screw in version of the T1 but does anyone know where to purchase the 4x4 version?? I can't seem to find it!

We have also just bought the Genus mattebox for our EX1. I'm new to the world of filters so whats it like working with filters and the T1? I presume the T1 is first filter in place?

Sorry if my questions seem dumb but I'd like you guys to bestow some of your mighty knowledge!!

Many thanks!

Darren,

Try phoning Tiffen. Here you go...

Tiffen International Ltd. Europe (Tiffen Filters, Steadicam Systems, Lowel, Dfx Software, Domke)
Unit 5, Avonbury Business Park
Howes Lane
Bicester OX26 2UA, United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 870 100 1220
Fax: +44 (0) 186 932 1766
email@tiffeninternational.com

or you can order from B&H in the US of A:

Tiffen | T1 Infrared Filter (4 x 4") | W44IR | B&H Photo

VideoGear in the UK have always supplied my Tiffin needs superbly.

When watching the TV it's surprising how many times you can see the IR problem cropping up. The problem is that I never know what the program is all about, I am just looking at the IR contamination. Of course I could be wrong and a lot of presenters are just wearing weird coloured suits.

I too have a Tiffen filter, but have not needed to use it yet - maybe next week I will.

I am undecided whether to try that filter on my EX1 (weekend after next) for a Dance Recital I have to shoot. Another poster seemed to feel that it would impart a green caste to the footage that is impossible to remove.

Did you experience that for the stage production you shot with the filter?

Thanks,

John
I suspect I'm that "other poster".

You can remove the overall green caste by white balancing the camera. What you cannot compensate for is that the T1 changes the spectral response of the red channel. My closest understanding of what that causes is a shift in the primary chromaticity of the camera's red channel. One complaint I've read from other users is this causes a change in skin tones which is subtle but very hard to impossible to grade out. No surprises there. These outcomes are quite predicable from the published spectrographs of the T1 filter. You also loose some light throught the T1 filter.

I shoot mostly stage productions and I have both the T1 and the 486 filter. The 486 from B&W has no impact on the visible portion of the spectrum. Again the published data shows this very clearly, the difference between the T1 and 486 is chalk and cheese. Not only does the T1 introduce a problem with the cameras colorimetry it doesn't cut quite enough of the near IR to totally remove the problem.

On the downside the 486 is a more expensive filter and being a dichroic it does introduce a color shift at low angles of incidence. This is covered in the warning from B&W about the uses of this filter at wide angles. In the real world unless you're shooting as wide as the EX will go and mostly white or pale walls you'll never notice it. Shooting wide with pale backgrounds is very unlikely when shooting stage productions. Getting as much light as possible and not having to do a manual white balance are two positives for the 486 if you want the best possible image quality and can afford the extra cost.

As I said before I have both filters. I knew from day one the T1 was no magic solution to the problem, there simply isn't one, but I bought it anyway just in case I struck a shot where I'd have to use it in preference to the 486. That's quite some time ago and it's only been on the camera while I ran some tests. The 486 has never been off my own camera nor have the 486s ever come off the the other two EX1s or two EX3s we have apart from the rare times a WA adaptor has been fitted.

If you've got a T1 and are shooting a stage production it's certainly going to be better than no filter. Get a tungsten light (an ungelled stage light will do) and use that to white balance the camera. Stage lighting is all over the place color wise anyway so you'll not notice any issues. The magenta shift it the blackout cloth is hard to not notice.

I think sometimes because we are looking for stuff you notice it more. I'm not dismissing the T1's flaws but have clients ever run up to you after you have given them the product and said "Hey I know you have been using a T1 and I hate the picture."

I personally don't hugely like the down converted picture from HD-SD that I do via Compressor but anyone who doesn't know loves the picture. Just so easy to become over critical because we all work with this stuff and see it everyday!

You can remove the overall green caste by white balancing the camera. What you cannot compensate for is that the T1 changes the spectral response of the red channel. My closest understanding of what that causes is a shift in the primary chromaticity of the camera's red channel. One complaint I've read from other users is this causes a change in skin tones which is subtle but very hard to impossible to grade out.

I had problems a few months back with someone with a spray-on tan. It's long been known that such fake tans can result in slight colour shifts on camera, but the T1 did leave a green tinge on highlights after white balance that was most annoying. I ended up having to do some spot colour correction for the close ups.

I'll state again, I had white balanced.

That said it was the lesser of two evils as the person in question was wearing clothing that was black to the eye but not to the EX1.

The T1 only goes on when I see a problem and comes straight off again afterwards.

Thanks Bob for your informed post on the matter.

-Andrew

I am thinking situation where there is no time to white balance, only a take a preset. Will the green color cast the T1 is leaving be easily correctable in post ? Has anyone already tried it ?

Here is a link to a YOUTube video we made which shows the affect of the T1 filter on the EX1 and EX1R. The problem seesmt o have been pretty much fixed in the EX1R and I don't use the T1 with it.


YouTube - EX1 and EX1R and Tiffen T1 filter test.wmv (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnIn_w6uWM8)

I suspect I'm that "other poster".

You can remove the overall green caste by white balancing the camera. What you cannot compensate for is that the T1 changes the spectral response of the red channel. My closest understanding of what that causes is a shift in the primary chromaticity of the camera's red channel. One complaint I've read from other users is this causes a change in skin tones which is subtle but very hard to impossible to grade out. No surprises there. These outcomes are quite predicable from the published spectrographs of the T1 filter. You also loose some light throught the T1 filter.

I shoot mostly stage productions and I have both the T1 and the 486 filter. The 486 from B&W has no impact on the visible portion of the spectrum. Again the published data shows this very clearly, the difference between the T1 and 486 is chalk and cheese. Not only does the T1 introduce a problem with the cameras colorimetry it doesn't cut quite enough of the near IR to totally remove the problem.

On the downside the 486 is a more expensive filter and being a dichroic it does introduce a color shift at low angles of incidence. This is covered in the warning from B&W about the uses of this filter at wide angles. In the real world unless you're shooting as wide as the EX will go and mostly white or pale walls you'll never notice it. Shooting wide with pale backgrounds is very unlikely when shooting stage productions. Getting as much light as possible and not having to do a manual white balance are two positives for the 486 if you want the best possible image quality and can afford the extra cost.

As I said before I have both filters. I knew from day one the T1 was no magic solution to the problem, there simply isn't one, but I bought it anyway just in case I struck a shot where I'd have to use it in preference to the 486. That's quite some time ago and it's only been on the camera while I ran some tests. The 486 has never been off my own camera nor have the 486s ever come off the the other two EX1s or two EX3s we have apart from the rare times a WA adaptor has been fitted.

If you've got a T1 and are shooting a stage production it's certainly going to be better than no filter. Get a tungsten light (an ungelled stage light will do) and use that to white balance the camera. Stage lighting is all over the place color wise anyway so you'll not notice any issues. The magenta shift it the blackout cloth is hard to not notice.

Thanks Bob,

I ordered a B&W 77mm #486 filter today. I won't even try the Tiffen filter. It's killing me not to use my EX1 for making SD DVDs of stage productions because they look so bad (visible only on CRT televisions) so for $152 it's worth it if the filter gets rid of the unacceptable CA that haunts the outlines of the dancers and actors on stage. As far as the brown that is supposed to be black, that's not even noticeable. But the colored ghosts around the edges of the performers I can't stand. So if the filter solves that problem, I'll be happy I spent the money.

Thanks,

John

That IR filter will not fix the CA problems you are having. Sorry.

That IR filter will not fix the CA problems you are having. Sorry.
=====================

So now over $200 worth of filters and I'll still have the problem?

This is why I stick to my vx2000 for stage productions.

John

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, John. In my limited knowledge of optics, CA is caused by a lens' inability to focus all the primary colors at the same exact spot on the imaging surface (film, digital imaging chip....whatever). Mine has the same CA issue at full telephoto. An IR filter is only going to block IR wavelength light from contaminating your black subject matter. If it did anything to affect CA, it would be purely by accident. Again, sorry.

You can get around the CA problem in both After Effects and Photoshop (Extended edition) see my thread here, I have posted a few examples too.

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdcam-ex-cinealta/479353-chromatic-aberations-ex3-question.html

That IR filter will not fix the CA problems you are having. Sorry.

Some very quick tests someone else conducted indicate it might. The longer wavelength of IR means it is refracted at a different angle and hence can cause what looks like CA. A quick test using a res chart with the 486 on and off showed less apparent CA with the 486 on. Same would apply with the T1 as well to some extent.
For certain it's not going to cure all the CA but every little bit helps.

I've only just learned about the IR issue with the EX3. In a shoot I did last weekend I noticed excessive red, particularly in the clouds (see image). I was using built-in ND as well as a linear polarizer in a Cavision matte box.

Am I correct in assuming that this IS INDEED the EX's IR issue? I'm just about to order the Tiffen T1 77 mm which (from what I've been reading) is as close to the fix as I'll get. Right call?

Anthony

PS. It's already been suggested that it appears more like it needs a white balance adjustment but I had done one within the hour and it looked fine in the viewfinder.

To me, it just looks like the rosy hues of sunset.

It was about 2:30 pm on a bright sunny day.

It was about 2:30 pm on a bright sunny day.

You've discovered the "day for early evening" trick of filmmaking! :-)

Before the filter was on sale, Carey Duffy from Tiffen UK and I shot this little test with the prototype:

Tiffen T1 Filter Test (http://mikemarriage.lunarfilm.co.uk/Blog/files/category-tiffen-t1-ir-filter-test.html)

I bought three of these filters a few weeks back based on the comments in this thread.

The green cast is quite annoying... and I don't think white balance solves the problem.

Why would white balancing solve a green tint ? White balance runs on a scale between red and blue, green shouldn't be affected ? If white balancing affected green too it'd be an RGB value.

I removed the IR-cut filter from an old DSLR and I put on a Infrared only lens... I know based on the images I've taken with the camera that some of my black socks reflect large amounts of infrared (in the pics I've taken they appear solid white while everything else is exposed properly).

This is a frame grab from an EX3 with the sock present.

I'll see if I can reproduce this with the T1 filter later today and my IR DSLR.

P.S. Lighting makes a big difference, these socks show up as pink under infrared heating lamps (some restaurants have them).

The slight green cast can be removed very easy, just add a touch of Magenta. I use the Green Channel on curves and pull the centre curve downwards - Presto all gone :-)

I don't have the camera in front of me, but I remember the last time I searched for the green channel I could only find R-B, G-B, G-R etc. I'd assume Magenta is the equivalent of R-B ?

Whatever the case I'll give it a try, thanks for the advice :) .

Sorry, I didn't make this clear enough. I meant use your NLE software to adjust the colours. Although you could set up a custom profile to bias towards Magenta when using the Tiffen filter.

The T1 is also necessary for ex1r?
I bought one week ago and aa discovered that the greens is a very very big problem.
Any balance that you may do, THE PICTURE IS STILL G R E E N.....
Maybe less than before balance, but the problem exists....
I am NOT impressed with the filter, but with the very bad picture that produces to my ex1r.

The filter works very well and you can get rid of any slight green cast using the above technique.

In an ideal world we shouldn't have to worry about an IR problem or how to correct it and then apply a secondary correction for the green cast. The reality is that we are not in an ideal world, just about everything we buy or use has to be customized to our own requirements. Yes, we have spent a lot of money on a camera and don't expect any problems. We can either complain about it or just get on with shooting and being creative. I know the option I chose.

Giannis Pass wrote :

The T1 is also necessary for ex1r?


I don't think it is necessary for the EX1R... I think they included an improved IR Cut filter in the EX1R.

No, the problem is still there on the EX1r

I just got my T1 and I'm not convinced that I can accept a definite green tint over an occasional IR problem. I shoot mainly outdoors and am looking for a "solution" that offers the fewest compromises. I've also considered the Schneider Platinum 1/2 stop IR filter but I haven't read enough about to be sold on it as being superior to the T1.

I shot some samples... and fluffed one of them up (the one wb'ed for outdoors but shot under tungsten lighting).

The unlabeled image in black and white is Infrared only... shot using a modified DSLR (has no IR-cut filter) plus a Tiffen 87 IR-only filter. The only *true* black in the image is the cover on the one lens adapter.

All the socks look black to the human eye.

The problem seems to get worse with an increase in gain.

I just got my T1 and I'm not convinced that I can accept a definite green tint over an occasional IR problem. I shoot mainly outdoors and am looking for a "solution" that offers the fewest compromises. I've also considered the Schneider Platinum 1/2 stop IR filter but I haven't read enough about to be sold on it as being superior to the T1.

THAT'S IT.....
BRAVO.....
Better a little brown, than a GREEN picture.
This filter is only for someone amateur....
No one pro can accept this GREEN S**.

THAT'S IT.....
BRAVO.....
Better a little brown, than a GREEN picture.
This filter is only for someone amateur....
No one pro can accept this GREEN S**.
Giannis, what a strange comment regarding "someone amateur". The filter can be very helpful in a lot of cases, and perhaps.
No one pro can accept this BROWN S***
I have certainly found it helpful on a number of occasions, in a hall full of black suits, half of which stick out like a sore thumb because of the brown tinge.
It has nothing to do with amateur or pro, its just an aid to the inherant problem of EX cams, and used with good judgement, it is an enormous help.

someone amateur....


Haha, yes Mr professional.

Colin Rowe wrote :

and used with good judgement


Every tool has it's purpose... I think the filter should only be used when there's severe IR contamination... like in a theatre. It may not be that useful outdoors, although IR can also cause green leaves to look brown on plants. If you notice it, use it. We're going to be shooting a stage production very soon with about 7 seven cameras... that'll allow me to test the effectiveness of the filter in a stage scenario.

I seem to have made a mistake earlier about white balance being only red/blue... white balancing does seem to reduce the green tint quite a bit.

-edit-

Below is an example of where the filter will help... both shots were taken under Tungsten lighting (Redhead) and white balanced. They're just normal black cotton trousers. Synthetic materials are particularly bad...

If the T1 IS going to remain part of my kit then I think I need to return the 77 mm version and go for a 4 x 5.65. I don't see dismantling everything should the need to use the T1 arise. I'd much rather just slide it in.

Wait a sec. Let me rethink my last post...

If the issue is made worse with the use of ND, I shoot mostly outdoors and will therefore USE ND, then instead of plunking down another $300 on a 4 x 5.65 T1, maybe I SHOULD try the Schneider Platinum IRND 4 x 5.65.

In theory (I wish I was able to find more to read about its ACTUAL use) this should eliminate the risk of the red issue and the Platinum IRND (vs. just the IR) is said to be color neutral.

With that, I'm outdoors using built-in ND, I see off-blacks, I slide in the Platinum IRND .3 and fix the blacks, retain the ND (adding another layer if I need/want it) and no green tint.

Sound like the ideal solution?

Hmm. If it IS the solution, the only place I can even find part number 68-060356 (Schneider IRND .3 4 x 5.65) is at FilmTools and they aren't expecting any until mid-August. And this seems to be the only place to get them! The rare nature of this filter is making me lose confidence in it as my "perfect plan".

these are 2 different conferences ... both speakers are wearing black suits ... the No T1 IR filter was shot before I got the T1 and the other after. There were no complaints about the brown suit so I can say I skated on that one but it made me get that filter. The second example is with the T1 IR filter and lighting in both cases were hotel conference room tungsten lights ... T1 IR had a small spot I provided for the speaker ... 5600 K LED spot to counter balance the house lights.

No samples attached...