For all the live event people out there who work in less than ideal lighting situations (i.e. dark wedding receptions with only an on-camera light)...what is the maximum gain that you're comfortable using on the NX5 at 1920x1080 resolution and no slower than 1/48 shutter speed?

As personal preferences vary greatly on the issue of "how much grain is acceptable" I'm hoping we can all chime in here to get a better idea of what we're generally using as a collective. I mention this because when I first began as a shooter, I adamantly stuck to using less gain than I use now, as I only sought out a few other videographers' opinions and had little experience of my own to draw on. I've since loosened my gain restrictions somewhat, having realized that it makes for an overall picture (after editing) that is more pleasing to my eye.

In my dim light tests, after exporting to Blu-ray and watching on a 1920x1080 display, I think a maximum of 12db will be acceptable under most dim conditions. So for now (after one night of tinkering) my gain settings are at -3, 6, and 12.

Alec Moreno
Wedding Art Films - Southern California - Los Angeles - Orange County - Video (http://www.WeddingArtFilms.com)

We don't have the same customs as you do, but I use mostly 6db in the evening/night and if it isn't enough light at the party, I use 12db max.
I use two groups of settings, during the day the gain is set to -6,0,6, but when the evening starts i switch the settings to 0,6,12.

Doesn't this relate to the subject being recorded in these situations? If you don't get a recognizable picture of Grandma, even a noisy one, won't you hear about it? I've videotaped nocturnal tree dwelling animals, palm civets, bushbabies and others. Getting a recognizable picture is everything and I don't usually have any light source except a decent flashlight. I just keeping cranking the gain. Is this ideal? Well, no.

Marc...

Actually, if I end up with a noisy image of grandma it will stand out like a sore thumb against the rest of the film and I will immediately lose all credibility with my clients. It would be about equally as bad as not getting the shot at all. The solution of course is to light her better and move closer if possible. Then, the issue of noise won't be a problem...but this is not always possible.

One idea behind my question is that if I'm able to gain up, that is a far better solution for situations such as the first dance at a wedding. This is because I will be able to see far more of the people in the background than if I rely more on my camera-light (which will drop off considerably between the subject and background). We all agree there is a trade off between quality and brightness of picture, but there is also an upper limit to how much grain is acceptable before the shot can be considered unusable. I can't imagine too many people being comfortable using the extreme hypergain setting in any situation.

The other idea behind the question is that if I'm able to determine ahead of time what my camera is able to handle and what it cannot, then I will be able to plan accordingly. In other words, the camera's ability will determine how I plan my shoot, rather than my shooting plan asking the camera to do something it is not capable of doing reliably.
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Cristian...

Is it common to use camera lights in your customs?
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After some more testing by the way, I'm now teetering between 9 and 12 as a maximum gain along with a picture profile that includes a "master black" level of approximately +10 and a "manual knee point" of 105.0%. I'm sure I'll be tweaking these as time goes on.

Alec Moreno
Wedding Art Films - Southern California - Los Angeles - Orange County - Video (http://www.WeddingArtFilms.com)

One thing I do know: hyper gain is right out.

[...] Cristian...
Is it common to use camera lights in your customs? [...]


Yes, many people around here use lights at night, but some use them only on few occasions. The picture looks amateurish in some way when you have a light on camera, because the subject in front is exposed correctly, but the rest is actually darker because the gain is lower than it would be without the light. So I prefer to use a light only when I cannot get an acceptable picture with max 12db. And the Picture profiles settings used during the day have to be modified to give a good picture at night.

I film mostly weddings. My rule of thumb is a max of 9db unless I amsolutely have to go more and then I'll go to 12. I'll also use 1/30 shutter speed at times too along with the 12db. That will handle just about any dim weddings I've encountered.

I shoot mainly cars and car events. When I shoot at an event at night I pretty much go no higher than 9db depending on what I want to see. This is so far my only video I've done with the NX at night (shot 2 weeks after I got the camera) and went no higher than 9db with shots at 0. Of course the track is well lit but some key areas arent etc. This video was also shot in 720p. I hope this helps you out.

Midnight 1320 Summer 2010 on Vimeo

That was a cool video. It's good to see you did all that only going to 9db sparingly.

Nice video (I can smell the rubber) but it didn't go unnoticed seeing all those "daylight" lighting towers dotted around the venue which no doubt helped. Wish I had the same luxury - if I'm lucky I get warm filament lighting just above 3K.

I have resisted using a camera mounted light for things like a wedding first dance. The poster who mentioned an "amateurish" look has a point - it also breaks a lot of the atmosphere too.

I put a +12db ceiling on my settings at 1/50 sec and try to get in closer with a wider lens (Z5 and NX5) making sure the venue doesn't dim down the lights, although I've had a few who appear to take no notice of my request preferring to see the happy couple washed in red and purple light - nice.

It is in the planning - I have a strategy that works for me most of the time although does require the co-operation of people. If you explain the issue in simple terms, most are happy to help you out when they begin to understand the problem. Other than that - you need to be a lighting director.

As to filming wildlife - a different host of issues. Who holds the torch (sorry - flashlight)?

I find that a max db of 12db adds a little too much grain personally. 9db seems to be tha most acceptable imo. What beneifits can I see if I lower my shutter speed to say 1/30 as another member suggested combined with a max of 6 or 9db? Will this not slow down the frame rate of my 24p shot? Also what are the benefits of using the -6db or -9db settings during the day as far as grain limitations? Can I adjust some settings within the picture profile to also provide more light or brightness? I've recently found that raising my lcd brightness greatly improves my perception of how well lit the shot is. Having it on the default mid setting always had me thinking that the shot was darker than it really was.

If you ask me (and maybe you don't) then I'd say that bumping the gain to +15dB (if needs be) on a first dance shoot is far less damaging to the footage quality than halving the default shutter speed. The latter gains you 2½ stops, the latter a single stop. The former leaves camera and subject movement looking completely natural, the latter is a poor man's progressive scan and the stutter is noticed by all.

I use my 126 LED lamp on my NX5 for such dances because even if the Toastmaster swears he'll keep the lights on, invariably someone else thinks it will look a lot more romantic in pitch darkness. The vignetting is not a problem as no light is going to cover my 17mm equivalent and anyway, I reckon it looks better with the couple beautifully lit and all the guests in the gloom around the perimeter of the room.

I agree that a movie light can disrupt the atmosphere somewhat but then so too can countless electronic flashes - they're all part of this couple's day.

Chris - HDMI your cam to a big TV and sit close, using the TV as a huge v'finder. Now dial in the negative gain settings and note how quiet (grain-free) the picture becomes as you turn it more and more negative.

tom.

Chris gain is not an absolute it's decided by the engineering designer as to what 0 is going to be. My XR500 has much less grain at all settings than the NX5U. For me 9db on the NX5U is acceptable much like on my FX1. Most times my settings at 3,6 and 9 with gain limit set at 15 db for auto mode, with slow change set too, so that if all else fails I can move gain to auto and know it will not go beyond 15db. All my shoots are in the theatre none outside so never encounter really bright light. All are shot at 60i.

Ron Evans

Chris...
Lowering your shutter speed will not affect your frame rate. What it does do is brighten the picture at the cost of making it more blurry...and the faster the motion, the more blurry it'll be.

With the NX5, I'm a lot happier with lowering the shutter speed, compared to gaining up too high.

Alec Moreno
Wedding Art Films - Southern California - Los Angeles - Orange County - Video (http://www.WeddingArtFilms.com)

. For me 9db on the NX5U is acceptable much like on my FX1. Ron Evans

Ron,
I'm coming from the FX1 camera body myself...would you say the gain (and the noise ) settings to be very similair in appearance between these tow cameras?

My cameras arrive tomorrow and thankfully I have about a 4 week break before the shooting schedule gets intense...have some time to play and tweak the setting...thanks for any help

As I said in my previous post gain settings are decided by the engineers not some standard. I think that the NX5U gain settings are set high. That is, 0 on the NX5U is more like 6db on the FX1. It's not quite at this level but close and not linear. 12db on the FX1 is about the same as 9 on the NX5U in terms of grain both are a lot noisier than the XR500 at almost any gain setting up to 18db on the XR500. I would not use the NX5U above 9db if I can help it as the grain becomes obvious. I don't think it is much different than the FX1 but since I mix with the XR500 or the EX3 it becomes obvious then.

You may also find that focusing is critical on the NX5U and it will be worth using both the expanded focus aid as well as peaking to get the sharpness you need.

Ron Evans

The NX5 uses 1/3rd inch CMOS chips whereas the Z1 uses 1/3rd inch CCDs. Both zoom lenses have a maximum aperture of f/1.6 and they both ramp (lose speed) equally as you zoom towards telephoto. My tests show the newer camera is very nearly a stop more sensitive than the Z1.

This isn’t as much a deal-breaker as you’d imagine, and in practical terms mean that you’d be filming with the Z1 set on +6dB of gain up whereas the NX5 would be on 0dB under the same low light conditions. Both cameras get pretty grainy at +18dB of gain up, but the Z1 ‘s gain is less objectionable on screen, and I’m pretty sure it has to do with the in-built noise-reduction circuitry.

The Z1 gets softer as the gain’s applied whereas the NX5 plumps for sharpness retention and the grain looks more objectionable. You can’t do much about either situation; there’s no menu option to trade one against the other as there is with digital still cameras. The extra sensitivity of the NX5 means the third neutral density filter is welcome as it absorbs that extra stop out in the sunshine.

tom.

Thanks Ron...12db was all I ever wanted to go on the FX1...i just dropped the shutter as long as no real fast actions or limited to no pans were done. Guess I adjust the NX5s accordingly.

To be honest...although we all like to see significant gains when we move to new camera bodies, I had four succesfull years shooting with my FX1s...granted they didn't have the quality o other cameras (costing more) ...but I made money with them and I was happy, for the most part with the quality. Even a minor rise in quality will be icing for me...as I no longer will have to spend all day Sunday capturing footage from Saturday's gig.

Although they performed flawlessly for all that time...I was concerned of having some kind of tape drive failure at some point... and I knew the shelf life of the camera was coming towards the end.

I did not want a huge learning curve as my shhoting season is about to explode in a few weeks so I wanted a camera similair to what I had but like the idea of tapeless and also the idea of 720/60P.

I moved from the FX1 for similar reasons. I film with others, EX3 and also use my XR500 and SR11. The FX1 was the only tape camera and also looked less sharp and noisier than the others. Time was also important for my theatre shoots so not having tape was also a goal. I have now got a lot more used to the NX5U and now take much greater care to focus as this seems more critical than it was on the FX1. Auto focus is about as poor as on the FX1 when compared to the XR500 or the SR11 and I would love to have the touch spot focus on the NX5U that is on these consumer cameras. As Tom says the NX5U is a little more sensitive whereas a lot of my theatre shoots were at 6 to 12 db on the FX1 they are now 0 to 9 db on the NX5U. Personally I just think the engineers moved the scale when they allowed negative gain !!!!

Gains in moving to the NX5U for me are mainly convenience ( no tape to change ), transfer to PC is faster than tape, better audio than FX1. Picture quality is better too but not startlingly better than the XR500 which is a lot easier to get a spot focus with.

All files are now AVCHD ( other than the few EX3 files) and I put everything into one directory and back up to LTO3 data tape. Backup is very important as there are no video tapes left for you to go to if you erase from the PC.

Ron Evans

Ron what are the benefits of backing up to LTO3 data tape other than archiving purposes? Because in this day in age you can get a 1tb hard drive for 69$ at Bestbuy or Futureshop. To me it seems more convenient to purchase 3 or 4 external hard drives then to start backing up to tape. Are LTO3 tapes expensive? What is the process do you need some sort of HDV tape drive in order to do it?

My Quantum HH Ultrium 3 drive cost $1100 Can and the tapes are about $25 for 400G. That is enough for about 40 hours of AVCHD. Software is Retrospect backup software. Tapes are about the size of 3 DV tapes. Backup and restore speed is about as fast as the hard drives will go and in my system that is about 65MBps sustained. So will backup and verify/ compare 2 hours of AVCHD in about 10 mins.

The linear tape is much more reliable than a hard drive and unless you want instant access is easier to manage. Hard drives are not very reliable and one would need a RAID 5 or more to maintain some level of security. I keep source files, editing project and finished output on the tapes. I clean off the hard drives when editing the project is finished. I do keep a DVD and Bluray image on a hard drive for quick access. Don't really care if it fails as I can just load from tape again.

As a bonus it will of course backup the whole PC too.

Ron Evans

Ron,
Not meaing to go off topic...but how does battery life compare between the FX1 and the NX5.

I had planned on getting some new 970s...but already have a good array of them...

You won't need more. The NX5 draws 7.7 watts, the FX1 7.9 watts because of the tape deck motor. The catch is this - to make the NX5's top screen match the FX1's and be usable in daylight you have to bump the brightness to full in both menu options, and I'm betting this means it tops 8.5 watts easy.

tom.

All my projects are in the theatre so LCD on both FX1 and NX5 are on bright. I haven't really noticed any difference really. Use the same 970 as I used on the FX1 and it seems to run just as long. I can do a two to three hour show and still have several hours left on the battery. I take the 770 that came with the NX5U as a backup but have never used yet. I use the FMU and SDHC cards at times too.

Ron Evans

Chris...
Lowering your shutter speed will not affect your frame rate. What it does do is brighten the picture at the cost of making it more blurry...and the faster the motion, the more blurry it'll be.

With the NX5, I'm a lot happier with lowering the shutter speed, compared to gaining up too high.

Alec Moreno
Wedding Art Films - Southern California - Los Angeles - Orange County - Video (http://www.WeddingArtFilms.com)

Alec, I wanna ask you maybe little bit out of topic here, what will happen if I lowering shutter speed and I record some panning and faster moving? will it interlaced?
thanx

AN

Adjusting the shutter speed will not affect the format (interlaced or progressive). The format is selected elsewhere in the menus and will not change (unless you use the slow motion feature).

Lowering shutter speed will cause the image to blur. If the scene and camera are absolutely still, you probably will not be able to see any blurring. However, camera and/or subject movement will cause blurring. The faster the movement, the more the image will blur in that portion of the image. From what I can see, there is a little more blurring when shooting in 720p compared to 1080p. Try some tests though to see how far you can comfortably push the camera for what you're shooting.

As I mentioned though, I'm very happy with the NX5's ability to produce a good image at 1/30 shutter speed.

Alec Moreno
Wedding Art Films - Southern California - Los Angeles - Orange County - Video (http://www.WeddingArtFilms.com)

okay alec, thanx for the information, i will try to make some experiments..