Hi all,
thinking about getting a D7 as a 2nd wedding cam but have read you can only shoot 12 mins at a time. Could someone explain if upon reaching the 12 min cut off, a new file is created and recording continues (missing nothing in between) or if it needs to be manually rested and then someone has to push record again?

The only drawback to my master plan is that I'd use this cam un manned at the back of the church and therefore if it only rec's for 12 mins this is not an option for me.

The other alternative is using my FX1 to capture from the rear and cutting the footage (50i) in with the 25p footage from my other cams. As there will be very limited movement during the ceremony do you think the difference will still be too obvious?

Cheers,

7D. records approximately 12 minutes. Then stops. It requires human intervention to re-start. The Panasonic GH1 does not have this limitation so perhaps you'd be interested in that one.

thanks perrone, had not even heard of the GH1 until now... I will have to start my research again. Are there any obvious things lacking from it compared to the 7D? Are the same selection of lenses available or do you need to buy converters?

thanks perrone, had not even heard of the GH1 until now... I will have to start my research again. Are there any obvious things lacking from it compared to the 7D? Are the same selection of lenses available or do you need to buy converters?

Well other than Nikon, no one has the selection of glass that Canon does for stills cameras. The GH1 only has a few lenses native to it's fairly new mount. Both the sensor and the mount are part of a new system called micro four thirds, written m43. Several manufacturers have jumped on this bandwagon though and options are increasing.

One of the great benefits of m43 is that it's a mirrorless design with a very short flange distance. This means you can use adapters to put darn near ANY glass on it. Everything from Canon, to Nikon, ot real Hollywood cinema glass. None of it will autofocus though. For video, that's not such a big deal, but for some, they really want hat.

The m43 sensor is somewhat smaller than the 7D sensor, so the crop factor is higher. In the 7D the crop factor if you put full-frame glass on it, is 1.6x. On the GH1 it would be 2.0x. So getting wide glass on it is somewhat more difficult and pricey.

All in all, it sounds like what you want is a big sensor video camera. Well, the GH1 is an obvious choice, but there will be options on the market in the coming weeks. Sony has a product coming perhaps in just a couple of weeks that you might be interested in. Both Sony and Panasonic have announced new products that should be out before Christmas that are more video camera like, though more expensive.

This segment is going to heat up rapidly, so if you're not in a hurry, sit it out until Christmas as see what blossoms. It's an exciting time to be honest.

thanks perrone, had not even heard of the GH1 until now... I will have to start my research again. Are there any obvious things lacking from it compared to the 7D? Are the same selection of lenses available or do you need to buy converters?

I own a GH1. In my research, I found several advantages the GH1 had over the 7D, and very few (no?) disadvantages. My suspicious nature made me wonder why that was and the only answer I could come up with was the fact that the GH1 was designed after Panasonic watched the success of the 5D/7D and simply improved upon that.

Advantages of the GH1 (not necessarily an exhaustive list, but what was important to me):

1. No record limit other than the space available on the SDHC card.
2. Autofocus while shooting (with stock lens.)
3. Smaller size - side-by-side, there really is quite a difference.
4. Availability of C-mount adapter.
5. Price. I paid $1200, but have seen it as low as $950 (with lens.)

David,

I will not get into a "who's camera is better" discussion here because this thread could devolve VERY quickly. Suffice it to say the GH1 has several advantages, and the 7D/T2i has several advantages. There are dozens and dozens of threads describing each in excruciating detail, with a lot of hyperbole and grandstanding on both sides.

To me, it works out like this. The GH1 works more like a video camera and it's supposed to. The Canon cameras work like little mini film cameras, and some prefer that.

Choose your weapon and come out filming!

BUT I DONT WANT TO WAIT!!!!!

ahem... excuse me.

Thank you so much for your advice, I'm going to spend some time researching some panasonic and the differences between that and the 7D.

wow i like it already. Love the flip our LCD too. I'm just worried about lens selection and the increased crop factor to justify upgrading from my D90. Am I right in saying crop factor only affects the angle of the lens, not the quality of the picture? Ie as long as I buy a wider prime (20 instead of 50) then I should have no problem?
Im quite new to photography, will I get a reduced depth of field by going for a 20mm 1.8 when compared to a 50mm 1.8? I'd assume so?

What are your opinions on the stock 18-140 lens and how does the auto focus work? I like the idea of using the standard lens without the recording limit for a B cam at a wedding, and then throwing on a prime and using manual focus for artistic shots during the photographs... It's already pushing the 7D out of the picture but I am very easily persuaded! :(

if youre buying it in england you'll have a 30mins record limit, as opposed to the non EU models

whoa.. that changes everything... So there is no model that will shoot 25p instead of 24p and have no record limit?

The length of 12 min has never been an issue for the ceremony or speeches which are the longest at any wedding. During the ceremony I start and stop and lose about 1-2 seconds. I find that I stop it around 8-9 minutes since during the ceremony there are always little breaks. If you are doing two camera shoots then it will NOT be an issue at all.

The camera freezing up on me has been my biggest issue. This tends to happen when the camera is over used and the room is warm, but its rare that it happens.

When I do one camera shoots if I have to stop then I have to stop and I just edit the ceremony in a clever way, but it has only happened once in the 25 weddings I've used the 7D.

I'm now looking for a second one.

if youre buying it in england you'll have a 30mins record limit, as opposed to the non EU models

I believe that applies to shooting SD rather than HD,

from what i remember both models shoot all the same frame rates but the EU model is limited to 30 mins in HD and SD due to some tax reasons (GH1 owners correct me if im wrong!)

The GH1 is a nice camera but has serious codec issues which were recently 'solved' by a hack, but which make the camera a little less stable from what I gather, also there was a mention that the latest GH1s in the shops were unhackable.

if youre buying it in england you'll have a 30mins record limit, as opposed to the non EU models

Nope. The 7D has a 12 minute record limit in HD, 30 min in SD whether you buy it in Amsterdam or New Amsterdam.

If you are doing two camera shoots then it will NOT be an issue at all.

The issue is that it will be a 2 cam but 1 cam operator shoot. I.e - the DSLR will be unattended at the back of the aisle so needs to record continually, unless I suppose I use that at the front but until I start using a DSLR and can trust it a bit more I'd have to double up on cams at the front.

What is the codec issue? I know AVCHD is very demanding to edit. I have a panasonic HF20 and can't mix the footage from it with my FX1 captured 50i footage, however I think thats because my HF20 is the 60i model.

have a search for 'mud' and 'gh1'.. lots of test videos around, AVCHD is at a very low bitrate on the gh1

OK, back to the OP...

I believe the 12min record thing has to do with the EU & taxes. Still cameras & video cameras are taxed differently when you purchase them, the 12min cap makes it so it is considered more of a still camera than a video camera. After all, no real video camera just stops recording after X # of min.

This is what I've remembered seeing before, but I can't find it now to back it up.

If this is the case, I don't know why Canon just didn't release a EU version with the cap & another version w/o the cap to the rest of the world.

whoa.. that changes everything... So there is no model that will shoot 25p instead of 24p and have no record limit?

Sorry David, I did not pay attention to the fact that you are in Europe. Yes, EU version of the GH1 stops recording at 30 minutes. If it recorded longer, it would be classified as a video camera and taxed higher.

However... there are firmware hacks freely available that remove the 30 minute limit and enable 25p recording. A Google search will reveal the details.

The more I read up the more I find out that this camera relies on 'hacks' to do the job I'd want it to do... the removal of the 30 min limit, the 50mb bitrate, removing the 'mud'.... It just sounds so risky.

Is it going to be a case of the iphone with Panasonic refusing to offer any service/advice if the device is hacked.

Yeah, I guess that's what happens when you want a piece of equipment to do what it was not intended to do (at least in the EU.)

Here in the USA, I've been using my GH1 as it came out of the box with no complaints.

but the mud and low bitrate is nothing to do with the EU model. I've seen some great clips on vimeo of the autofocus on the 14-140 at work and its tempted me more... I suppose there are no automatic firmware updates like with hacked iphones etc so surely once its hacked and working ok theres no risk of it being locked/bricked in future...? I hope...

OK, back to the OP...

I believe the 12min record thing has to do with the EU & taxes.


I was under the impression that it was because of the FAT32 maximum file size, which is theoretically +/- 4gigs.

12 minutes * 330mpm (megabytes per minute on the 7d for 1080p footage) = 3960 megs, or about 4 gigs.

No. Yes that math works out, but other VIDEO cameras are subject to exactly the same math, So when one file reaches it's limit, they start another file immediately, and keep recording. Unlike these cameras which simply stop and do NOT start another recording.

I have both the GH1 (with the hack) and 7D.

Both have their own strengths.

GH1
- longer recording limit
- much smaller/lighter with articulated LCD and very good EVF
- greater choice of recording formats, HD & SD
- very adaptable to 3rd party lenses, with manual focus and aperture control
- fast and usable AF in video mode
- probably the best all-around 10x zoom out there in DSLR land.

7D
- many more fast and wide lenses to choose from, 17-50/2.8's with IS/OS/VC (Canon, Sigma and Tamron all make one), Tokina's 11-16/2.8 and also other fast and wide primes
- CF cards are still cheaper and faster than SD's
- better battery life with an option of a battery grip
- more robust
- I also use the custom C1, C2 and C3 settings on the dial alot

I was wanting to go with the GH1 route but I joined the party late. All the Gh1 out there I can find is unhackale. That makes the low bitrate AVCHD quite inferior. Panasonic decided to block the hack so they would think consumers would go with their higher end camcorders? I ended up bought 3 canon t2i instead.

The 12 min limit ties to the SD card FAT32 format that each file is only 4GB. Gh1 will increment the next file automatically so that would be an issue. The EU tax issue limit is 30 minues (29:59). Good thing for T2i that support the latest SDXC card that can record 30 minutes at a time.

I was worrying about the 12 minutes will be a big problem when shooting weddings. It ended up it is not an issue. I just always remember to stop recording and record again. With 2 cameras taking turns, still have continously coverage. The overheating is another concern anyway.

Taky, have you experienced the overheating then? Is that with the GH1?

How can you tell if a GH1 is hackable before purchasing? I've seen one on ebay that claims to be on 1.3 firmware..?

I don't own any Gh1 anymore so I don't knwo about the overheating issue with it. But for 7D and T2i,

firmware 1.3 is not hackable. I don't think you can find any new stock that is hackable these days.

But after trying out with Gh1 and T2i, I don't like GH1 design. T2i is much easier to use. I use it with battery grip, and there're plenty of lens choices.

I have not experience any overheating with my GH1. However, when it starts a new file at 12 minutes (4GB), it misses a half-second or so of material. While that doesn't seem like a big deal, I'm always worried it'll happen over an important word during a presentation or something like that.

I don't think you can find any new stock that is hackable these days.

how can you tell before buying? this has stopped me in my tracks... i was ready to buy!

how can you tell before buying? this has stopped me in my tracks... i was ready to buy!

You can't. I suspect that's stopped a lot of people in their tracks.

Why not wait and see if the GH2 arrives in the next weeks (Photokina or IBC?)

You can't tell. I considered myself wanting to join the party late in July. There're still people getting the 1.2 firmware from B&H at that time. When I got mine in mid July from Amazon, it comes with the 1.3 firmware.

I wanted to like unhacked GH1. But the low bitrate, clunky operation, and extremely bad footage in low light turns me off. Then I bought T2i. Love it!

I was under the impression that it was because of the FAT32 maximum file size, which is theoretically +/- 4gigs.

12 minutes * 330mpm (megabytes per minute on the 7d for 1080p footage) = 3960 megs, or about 4 gigs.

Just to elaborate... I've shot with a HVX on P2 & Firestore, EX1, & Sony Z7U (tape / CF), all of these format cards in Fat32 which run into the 2GB file size limit. But all of the cameras just start recording a new file w/o missing a beat.

If you have a good NLE system & all the plug-ins, then when you bring the video in the files get stitched back together seamlessly. I use FCP w/ all these formats & it is better than capturing from tape, IMHO.


I like my Z7, but partly b/c the 12min record, the audio, the... etc. etc. I use it as a limited tool & don't view it as a real video camera. The 7D is a video camera like a SUV is a home entertainment system. First & foremost the 7D is a still camera, first & foremost a SUV is a vehicle. Can they do more? Sure thing boss, but they have their limitations, and depending on what your needs are, there are other options out there.

The right tool for the right job.

Why not wait and see if the GH2 arrives in the next weeks (Photokina or IBC?)

it looks like i'm going to do just that now.. can't take the risk of getting an unhackable GH1 :(

Then I bought T2i. Love it!

Hi Taky,

I'm not familiar with the T2i or the 550d as I believe its called here. How does this compare to the 7d and 5dii? Is it the same size sensor as the 7D?

I'd never considered this one in the past but a friend of mine is buying one shortly so I'll have the opportunity to try it out first which interests me.

Thanks

Hi David.
I have a 550D, its every bit as good as the 7D, yes, same size sensor.The 7D is of course a much better camera. Its build quality is far superior to a 550D, exceptional weather sealing , clean, in betweem ISOs etc etc. It also costs twice as much. The under development Magic Lantern firmware for the 550D will give you.
Audio meters
AGC over ride
Manual audio adjustment
Zebra
Histogram
You will not get these features with the 7D.
These cameras, and dedicated video cameras are going to move on in leaps and bounds over the next year or so. In buying a 550D you will be saving money, and still have an extremely usefull tool in your kit bag.
I shot a gig last week, used the EX1 as A cam and roamed the stage with the 550D, amazingly good match, mind you with stage lighting you get away with a lot.
Niether camera will dissapoint, but one of them will save you a lot of cash.
Hope this helps.
Colin

Hi Taky,

I'm not familiar with the T2i or the 550d as I believe its called here. How does this compare to the 7d and 5dii? Is it the same size sensor as the 7D?

I'd never considered this one in the past but a friend of mine is buying one shortly so I'll have the opportunity to try it out first which interests me.

Thanks

I tested T2i video quality against 7D. There is not visual difference. 7D has some superior features over T2i as in photo mode. Since I mainly need the camera for video, I go with T2i.. and bought 3 of them.

Thanks guys. The only thing is I play on using it for a split of photography and video. Is there magic lantern in the pipeline for the 7d?

Why not wait and see if the GH2 arrives in the next weeks (Photokina or IBC?)

in the UK yax goes up at christmas so i have to get my camera soon! were there any announcements at those exhibition that would be worth considering over a hackable gh1? I'd particularly like something with a full frame sensor

At present, the Canon 5F Mark IV is the only full frame sensor HDSLR.

A little bit of searching will show you that Panasonic announced the GH2 at Photokina that addresses many of the issues with the GH1 discussed here and in other threads (including bitrate) and were the reason the GH1 was being hacked.

There were additional new models from Sony which also are not limited to 12 minutes of recording as the Canon's are. A listing at B&H will show you the models that are expected to ship over the next few months.

thanks Les, I will certainly look into the GH2 and sonys.

At present the full frame element does interest me so does anyone know if there is/will be a magic lantern hack for the 5d that will allow it to do everything you can currently do with the hacked 7d?

@David Payne - I think maybe you mis-typed. Currently Magic Lantern is only available for the 5D (with the 550D / T2i in progress.) ML development for the 7D seems to be on permanent hold. As it stands, the Canon firmware update for the 5D enables just about all of the features that ML originally made available - minus the histogram.

thanks Jeremy that clears it up.

The reason for the confusion was that I was talking about getting a 7D and someone recommended a 550d because of the magic lantern in development (I got confused and thought he's recommended a 7d over a 550d but obviously not)

Thanks again

The limit is because the FAT file system on the memory cards support files up to 4GB. And 12 minutes of HD video makes about this 4GB ... thats why.

the FAT file system is at best coloration & not causation.

if FAT file size was really the limitation to the record time then P2, SxS, AVCHD, & the MRC-1 would all have record limits. yet all of these can record until you run out of media because as soon as the file gets too big it just starts a new file seamlessly w/o missing a single frame.