Hi Folks, My 1st post,

Most of you are pro's or avid enthusiasts. I shoot for a different purpose as in exposing the truth so to speak.
In my line of work we often find conditions less than ideal for shooting video. Mostly by street, porch, low ambient shade, or near sundown lighting.

Can you help me choose a rig that will out perform my Panasonic PV GS500?

Color or noise levels are not as important as in being able to identify the subjects.

I currently use a MiniDV Panasonic PV-GS500 (3 CCD) in what they call MagicPix mode when its a dark scene. There is also a 0 Lux MagicPix mode that wants the LCD turned towards the subject.(not applicable for remaining stealth)
MagicPix is barely getting the job done if at all, if I move its chaos, and if the subject moves faster than a walk its not good either.

The MagicPix mode has done OK even shooting through a Minivan's factory privacy glass that is equal to somewhere near 35% or less window film.

Perhaps you guys can point me at a pro-sumer rig that will be moderately to substantially more forgiving. I am a semipro photographer using a Canon 50D DSLR so I can learn to make gain adjustments and such, or learn to not have to use an auto mode.

My preferences are:

A $2000.00 starting point, new or used, the lesser the better.
Good low light performance, at least a noticeable difference than the GS500 under the same conditions.
MiniDV media preferred.
20x optical zoom a huge plus with a minimum of 12x.
HD is NOT a must, SD is fine would like 16:9 but......
Audio (not required) will be muted by inserting a mic plug without the mic into the remote mic jack.
Time & Date stamp needs to be visible during playback.

I am looking at the Sony HDR-FX7 3CMOS HDV 1080i Camcorder @ 2K new. What is the Lux rating on this rig. I see a 4 Lux rating but is that with the gain @ 0 ? Panasonic has the spec listed on the PV GS500 as a 5 Lux.

And before someone starts, and I'm not thin skinned, yes a PI is not the most popular until he is needed and then cost or social status is no object in obtaining the truth. :-)

Thanks

honestly if it were me and I could use SD instead of HDV or such I would drop for a used PD170 or VX2100. They are fairly small and have been considered the king of low light. 1/3 inch chips very adjust in either auto or manual mode and produce a great image even by todays standards.
Of course it is SD and a lot of people say not to buy an older SD camera today but IMO you get the best tool for the job and it really sounds like the PD170 might be it.
YMMV

OK, the FX7 is out, do a little read and you'll find the low light performance is not that great - otherwise a great camera, but also not that discreet size wise - I'll presume you liked the zoom range, and that made it a logical choice. One of my favorite cams I've owned, along with the Japan only predecessor to your GS500, the GS100K!


I'm going to suggest the Sony XR500V, which is "last years model" (you can still find some new unopened stock) of the Sonys with the Exmor "R" sensor which does very good in low lux mode, plus has IR nightshot. The XR550V is the current version, but the lens range leans toward the "wide" end, and while the digital zoom isn't bad, you still lose a bit on the long end, and I've noticed it seems to be more vulnerable to "lens ramping" (meaning that as you zoom in, the aperature closes, and your low light performance drops off). I find it more noticeable on the CX550V than my XR500V's.

I'm leaning towards the XR500 also for the fact that it has a viewfinder so you don't have the LCD illumination while you're framing the shot. Both the XR550 and the CX550 also have a viewfinder IF you can live with the lens range or add a tele adapter - the 550's also have a better image stabilization system than the 500 by a hair, which could make the difference when shooting handheld or with a support of some sort which I'd presume you use to help with longer range surveilance.

The size is right, close to your GS, they are black and very stealthy esp in viewfinder mode, and perform very well if you turn on the low lux mode (which you have to deliberately do, as the setting doesn't stick overnight, but will hold for a few hours of the camera being off... no idea why it does this, it just does). Long life batteries are easily available, as are most other accessories you might find handy. If you shop slightly used on eBay, you're looking at sub $1K if you're patient, "retail" is of course higher, but legit dealers would probably "street" you under $1k if you buy a pair (see below).

Only "sticking point" is that cameras under the $2K price point are now going to be either Hard Drive or solid state flash ram to either internal memory or a memory card/stick - that's where the market has gone. If you shoot HD (AVCHD format), it takes some computer horsepower to play back and edit the footage. You can record in an SD mode with these cams, and it will look quite good.

Since you are already a Panasonc user, you could look at their current offerings, the 700 series low light samples I've seen have been fairly good, although I believe the Sony does a tad better and just slightly less noisy in low light. Still, I''ve seen TM700s for a little over $800 - you could buy two cameras, rig a mount so you could shoot both cameras, set the one on the fixed mount a bit wide, and get a tight shot with the one you're holding so you've got backup and scene setting (with creative editing, you'd have a killer presentation with both a wide shot and the close-ups, be like your own TV show!), and still not spend your entire budget!

If you go with a non-tape camera, you may need to set aside some budget for a new computer, but most any current machine should be up to playback at least. For editing, you'll need a fairly well spec'd quad core.

Those suggestions should get you started, and I'm sure you'll get a couple others. Low light performance is a tough nut to crack, I'm sure the DSLR fans will pipe in, and it "might" be an option, but the short record times of the current cameras would be a tricky thing when I'm sure you want continuous footage (Sony just announced a new "SLT" syle cam with 29 minute record limit).

In my mind, one advantage of HDD and flash memory is you could set them and let them run without worrying about running out of tape or hitting a recording limit... making your job easier

honestly if it were me and I could use SD instead of HDV or such I would drop for a used PD170 or VX2100. They are fairly small and have been considered the king of low light. 1/3 inch chips very adjust in either auto or manual mode and produce a great image even by todays standards.
Of course it is SD and a lot of people say not to buy an older SD camera today but IMO you get the best tool for the job and it really sounds like the PD170 might be it.
YMMV

I'd agree, up to the point where having an extremely sharp clear picture (being able to see a face without ANY waffling or question about who it is) would tilt me towards the HD side of the equation... once I saw how much better an HD picture looked, I wasn't able to go back.

My kids faces and those of their friends on a big stage are ALL clear and recognizable with all the adorable expressions.. SD just can't do that as well. I have been rendering/burning HD versions even though I don't have a BR yet, simply because they look SO much better.

IMO it'd be unwise to not take advantage of the latest technology, especially when you're being paid - I'm guessing that the better, clearer and more detailed the "evidence" the more valuable the service! The "content" is still "king", but here the quality of the footage might count too.

The PD170 or DVX100 would be my top choices in your price range. Yes, HD cameras can get you there, especially something like a Canon 5D. But your budget precludes it. The primary factors that are undoable given budget are:

1. HD
2. Low light performance

You can get HD without the low light performance in your budget You can get SD with the low light performance in your budget. But you won't get both.

Something like the 550D with a fast fixed tele would be great. But I don't know what a 12x or 20x zoom works out to be in 35mm terms. And good lenses like a 300mm 2.8 would blow you budget on their own. Even used.

WoW! Thanks Guys,

OK, because in GA if a video goes to court it has to be on the media it was recorded on to be admissible. Therefore it can be held in evidence for up to 5 years. A HDD camera will not look good sitting there. Memory cards are not cheap enough for me yet because I would have to store them for that long to make sure the client did not need it in court later or if he declined to buy it or the stick (It gets tricky). So I want to try and stay with MiniDV @ $2.25 a tape.

Then the list narrowed to two the with Panasonic falling off because of price and 10x optics over better priced 12x cams.
This left the PD170 and VX2100 standing there with the PD170 loosing to where I would purchase it from.

So with the VX2100 being available from a vendor I trust B&H, I am leaning towards it. I have used B&H for years and for the extra cost and possible extended warranties and such I am looking at the VX2100.

My question is now how much better will the VX2100 be over the Panasonic PV-GS500? I take it with the manual controls of the VX2100 it should be substantial. And for the digital zoom, how much of that will work before it starts to go south?
You are the experienced minds here. I have never had a pro-sumer cam in my hands. B&H will give me a trial period. What do you think? Go for it?

Panasonic used to have a 3 chip DV camera that had a great separate attachment for night vision type recording. It's not in production anymore. The AG-DVC30 had a super night vision attachment that was sold separately. Might be worth investigating.

The VX series is the consumer version of the PD series which is the prosumer model. Besides the obvious differences of XLRs on the PD series the VX has many of it's manual settings in menus while the PD series has cute little buttons and switches. Not a big deal. I've used the VX series and have owned PDs for 10 years and still love 'em. The biggest shortfall of either is the 12X lense, I have always wished for something longer. 16 or 18 would have been nice but having said that, I've nevr really had a problem using the 12X. The digital zoom is something I've used only rarely and while it will get you a decent image (decent is a relative term) if it were at all possible I would try not to have to use it especially with the low light situations you might be faced with. IMO that is really the biggest drawback but hey, you might never need it. In any case as long as you could return the camera...Try it, You'll like it! (old commerical punch line)

There are add-on night vision (light-intensifier) devices for various cameras: AstroScope is one manufacturer, B&H Photo (bhphotovideo.com) is one vendor. Like all real light intensifiers, they get pricey, however.

Thanks,

No, I'll not be buying the intensifiers. $$$ Whew $$$!

I guess I'll just have to do a side by side. I called B&H to double check the policies and ask if all the factory supplied hardware would be in the box and they said yes and a 15 day return period and 30 day warranty. A $120.00 2-year MAC warranty is available. So I'm meditating on it big time.

I'm going to read the manual 1st in an attempt to be some what ready to set it up. Any suggestions on a setup starting point for videoing folks under a medium street light would be great.

I guess I would start with a near wide open f/stop and start playing with the gain?

Thanks Guys

The HD vs. low light argument used to be true, but the Exmor R chip does pretty well, and would be better than your GS500, not sure if it would beat the VX/PD, haven't ever seen the two compared, but in low lux mode my XR500 and CX550 can see better than I can when it gets dark... I do know that low light performance has improved a LOT, so what was once true is not so much anymore...

All the small cameras will record to removable memory cards... while not as cheap as tape, they might still be economical enough to pass along to the clients ( I'll guess the $2-3 tape expense is just tossed into your overall bill, while $20-35/hr. for HD recorded to cards would have to be billed separately?).

I don't know offhand what the legal implications are of flash media, I'd presume that the theory behind "original media" such as tape is the difficult if not impossible task of altering the "evidence". I'd see some advantage you being able to dub a copy of the file (before turning the memory card over to a client) and keep it in an archive - if there ever was a question of altered evidence the two files would cross authenticate, along with your expert testimony as to the source of the footage. I wouldn't be surprised if the laws involved haven't caught up with the technology shift, we're all just recovering from the shock!

8Gb cards are not overly expensive, if you record in high quality mode they are good for an hour of HD roughly. If you are recording in SD mode, you can probably record to much smaller (and cheaper) cards as long as they can be written to sufficiently fast. Memory of course is one of those things that's always getting cheaper...

Obviously you have to meet the evidenciary requirements, and that might very well mean a tape camera for now based on what you've stated. HD may take a while to catch on in the legal system <wink>.

Allen .. this might be way off the ballpark, but take a look at these Flip cameras.

Flip Video Camcorders (http://www.theflip.com/en-au/?9gtype=search&9gkw=low%20light%20video%20camera&9gad=5743894271.1&gclid=CJCN79Ws9qMCFQikbwodlVV43g)

There's a range, good specs and they're cheap and small. I was involved with the feds here way back and they would have loved these, exactly the opposite to busting into someones bedroom with a tripod.

I take your point about submitting the original media to court but not all of it goes there and an addon DV tape storage device might work.
Cheers.

Thanks,

Flip camera eh? Well it's illegal for a PI to window peek in GA. Heh, I'm kind of glad. It keeps me from seeing things I would rather not and keeping my head upon my shoulders.

As for the media it will greatly simplify my life if I just stay with tape for now.

I forgot to ask anyone who has used the VX2100, can you tell me if I can keep the date and time stamp displayed while in playback. This is a must have!

Allen,

You might consider the current crop of video-capable DSLRs.

Two factors that GREATLY influence light gathering is the speed of the lens used, and the size/sensitivity of the chip the light is falling on. In both areas, DSLRs are WAAY outperforming camcorders these days.

Something like a Canon 7d with a fast lens and the ISO bumped up, will likely do many times better than a camcorder in low light.

And in SD video mode, you can shoot for a LONG time on a single card - which you can clone for your own files, and submit the original card to the court if the need arrises.

Just a thought.

You might consider the current crop of video-capable DSLRs.

It's a thought. I do have a 17-55 & 70-200 in f/2.8 and a 50 1.8 all canon glass. I also have a 300 f/4.

How does the 200mm equate to a 12x video lens?

The 7D is nice I had one for a while and opted to keep my 50D. There is a cheaper build in the 550D that has the same sensor and such. Hmmm? I wonder?

EDIT------- 12x = 420mm on a camera.

It's a thought. I do have a 17-55 & 70-200 in f/2.8 and a 50 1.8 all canon glass. I also have a 300 f/4.

How does the 200mm equate to a 12x video lens?

The 7D is nice I had one for a while and opted to keep my 50D. There is a cheaper build in the 550D that has the same sensor and such. Hmmm? I wonder?

EDIT------- 12x = 420mm on a camera.

Re: the HDSLR... see my first post.

The 7D is $1500. If you are going to shoot in low light (god I hate that term) F2.8 isn't going to cut it. You need to be in the F1.8 range. Try looking to see what long glass faster than F2.8 costs. That's why I didn't recommend it.

I have a 550D. It's nice. But the cost of the body is NOTHING compared to the cost of the glass. If you are going to want to sit across the street and film a house, you're in the 200-400mm range. And a 300mm F2.8 is in the neighborhood of $2500 *used*.

So you say a 12x zoom is 420mm eh? Says who? As far as I know, a 12x zoom merely means the long end is 12x the focal length of the short end. The short end could be 18mm or it could be 50mm. Unless you know what the short end is, saying a 12x is meaningless.

So you say a 12x zoom is 420mm eh? Says who? As far as I know, a 12x zoom merely means the long end is 12x the focal length of the short end. The short end could be 18mm or it could be 50mm. Unless you know what the short end is, saying a 12x is meaningless.

I stand corrected. The VX2100 lens spec is: Aspherical Lens 6.0-72.0mm f/1.6-2.4
43.2 - 518.4mm (Camera / Memory Mode)

And it looks like the VX2100 is still in the running.

I am still sweating the question if the time and date can be on the playback even when downloaded to DVD or converted to .wmv.

I am still sweating the question if the time and date can be on the playback even when downloaded to DVD or converted to .wmv.

Ah, you're asking for professional features now. You're choice of preferred mini-DV won't let you play. Sorry, you don't get to play cheap on the tape format, and have the pro level features. You have to step up to pro level for that. Or go file based and bite the bullet on handing over a card.

It can be on the PD series. The menu will take you to "display time and date" which will burn it to the tape so when you edit and go to DVS it's there, like it or not.
Now this is not a time code per say but the time and date of the shoot. The clock shows the time just like any other prosumer camera.
Having said all of that I am about 99.99999% sure the VX series can do the same.

I hope So, I just read in the manual where it says you can toggle if it displays or not.

I can do it with my PV-GS500. The below may make some of you pro's laugh but its the only way I know as a self taught individual.

The tape stays as is for possible courtroom purposes. I do copy it to DVD's for editing to make a money shot only version. In this trade you just let it roll. If you try and anticipate when to start and stop the REC you miss the money most of the time.
I playback from my camcorder to my set top DVD burner and see the time and date displayed on the TV.
It burns showing the Time & Date to a DVD-RW I use for transport to a PC.

I then put the DVD-RW into the PC optical drive and use DVD Dcrypter and pull it off to a folder. I eject the DVD-RW to be formatted for next time.
Then I use IfoEdit to tweak the flags to default it to play in 16:9 and create an image.
I then burn the image (uncut version) to a DVD-R for ease of playback in the office without needing my camcorder to play back the tape.
Now I use Amerisofts video converter to convert it to a .wmv file, and use MS Movie Maker to edit out the non money shot content.
Then we upload the .wmv files in chapters to our case management site where the client can log into from anywhere and see the results.

99% of the time the .wmv files are enough. When the guilty party sees it they fold and negotiate.

Oh, I see what you're saying. You actually want a burn in... yea that's different and most cameras can do that. I thought you are after something more akin to time code, and that's generally not available on consumer models.

Well, sounds like you have what you're looking for. Best of luck!

Oh, I see what you're saying. You actually want a burn in... yea that's different and most cameras can do that. I thought you are after something more akin to time code, and that's generally not available on consumer models.

You gave me a scare,

You actually want a burn in...most cameras can do that. Actually, most can't, not anymore, not since VHS. In the DV realm from Sony, the PDs do but the VXes don't. On the VXes, you can display the date during playback by choosing DATA CODE > Date & Time, but this isn't burned into the tape.

Most pro cams can but most prosumer and straight consumer cams don't actually burn the date and time into the picture.

And just to be clear, when you display the time and date by using DATA CODE > Date & Time, this does not go out over the firewire so there's no way to burn it onto a DVD or permanently put it on your files for editing unless you just do an analog dub via the Composite A/V port. It just displays the date & time when played back on the cam or any compatible device, which must also support this feature (i.e. a Sony Deck like the DSR-11). If your DVD burner accepts Composite a/v in then this should work.

There is also a utility called DVDATE which will automatically burn in the time and date while editing with DV files, but it doesn't work with HDV. But again it's not burned into the camera original tape, only the rendered files, which courts may not like.

Thanks Again All,

I need an optical zoom equation solved now or a link to the answer. I have been googling but cannot get a clear or layman's explanation.

My Panasonic GS500 lens spec is:
Auto iris, F1.6 to F2.8, Focal length; 3.3 mm to 39.6 mm, Macro (Full range AF) 43mm filter dia.

The VX-2100 lens spec:
58mm Aspherical Lens f (Focal Distance) 6.0-72.0mm f (35mm Conversion) 43.2-518.4mm (camera mode) 43.2-518.4mm (memory mode)

Both are 12x zooms. So, I take it the math has the VX2100 showing a closer image when both are zoomed on the same subject from the same distance when zoomed all the way in?

Well, I pulled the trigger on a used VX2100 in "Demo" condition unit from Adorama for $1610.00 shipped with a 2 year MAC warranty. B&H's best refurb was $1699.00 starting out. Adorama started negotiating prices as soon as I started to end the call. I was just calling to see what was in the box and to ask about the policies. He got me. She will not ship until Monday due to the Jewish Holiday.

This is supposed to be in like new condition. So I will be seeing for myself and reporting here on what I find as far as time stamp transfer, low light and zoom comparisons between my it and my PV-GS500.

I have 15 days to put her through the paces and decide to keep it or loose shipping costs as long as I do not fill out the MAC paper work until I decide.

To save time I will be wanting to ask (after I receive it) about a menu setting starting point as far as low light conditions and wonder if I should start a new post in another category? I will most likely be shooting from inside a factory tinted glass vehicle at street or porch lighted scenes.

Thanks Guys

I think you'll be very happy with the VX, especially for that price.

So the burning in of date and time is not a critical function for you? I thought most courts wanted camera original with the date and time burned in.

You can't really compare lenses by their actual focal lengths because the tele factor is really dependent on chip size. As you've seen, most Sony spec sheets specify the focal lengths in 35mm cam equivalent but Panasonic doesn't, so it's difficult to tell which will get you closer, the VX or the GS500. I suppose the only way you can compare the lenses is to put them side by side when your new cam arrives and see which one goes closer.

Thanks,

From the manual,
Recording date and time is not displayed during shooting, however it is automatically recorded on the tape. You can check the recording date and time during playback by pressing DATA CODE.
DATA CODE * To display date and time during play back.

So, what I'm hoping for is when I playback via S VIDEO out to the set top DVD burner and press DATA CODE it will display the date & Time. If it does it will be on the DVD. My burner records what is displayed in the screen. This will be a deal maker/breaker for sure.
If it works over firewire that will be good too.
I like S VIDEO because I can avoid the audio if I somehow got some in the recording. Unless I'm doing an interview I usually have an external mic plug inserted with no mic. We avoid sound because of embarrassing things like bodily function noises, office or personal phone calls, comments like "Look at the great a** on that!" winding up on the tape playing back in the courtroom. :-)~

It should work over SVideo, but it probably won't over FW. If it doesn't work over SVideo it'll come out over composite a/v. No real advantage to using SVideo over composite as your image will be pretty crappy due to the low light anyway (unless your DVD Burner doesn't take regular composite a/v).

Thanks Guys,

I have the VX2100 and the low light difference between the VX2100 and the panny GS500 is amazing. I directed both cams toward scene at dusk and put both in their AES low light modes and the VX produced a scene and the GS was pitch black. It was at an umbrella on my neighbors back porch with no light source. I think the GS needs a source where the VX did not. I was impressed with its ability to auto focus at all, even though I know I will have to use manual on a case to make sure.

It looks like this cam will get me at least an hour more shooting time at sunrise and dusk. With some ambient light provided the detail will improve I'm sure. Now to get into the manual controls fun.

Do you guys know what the VX2100 uses for shutter speed in its low light mode and if I can match it manually?
What is the lowest shutter speed you would use to record humans at walking speeds or less?

Thanks.

Hi Guys,

Well, I sent the VX2100 back to Adorama because the internal batteries were bad and they opted to refund me. So I am shopping again.

Again, I'd go back to the PD 150 or 170. Unmatched in low light and readily available, cheap. And solves your date/time issue.

B&H has one of each as well as a couple of 2100s. Of that list the 150 looks to be the best value.

Used Pro & Prosumer Camcorders (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?ci=15330&N=4294210518+4291215468)

Sorry your last purchase didn't work out but you could look at this as an opportunity to get the perfect cam for you at a pretty good price from the most reliable vendor out there.

I'm most likely going to take your advise. I have to get the funds back into my hands first.
Adorama keeps taking holidays. Geesh! They need some folks of another faith to hold the fort while they honor their faith.
I'm no atheist but before I make another purchase from Adorama or B&H I'll have to look at the dates to see if they interfere with my shipping or return policy term.
Since I have made the purchase they have had two holidays that have inconvenienced me a great deal. This and some bum batteries has me a tad bitter.
To top it off I have had assignments that I needed the camcorder on. Oh Well. I'll live.

Again, I'd go back to the PD 150 or 170. Unmatched in low light and readily available, cheap. And solves your date/time issue.

B&H has one of each as well as a couple of 2100s. Of that list the 150 looks to be the best value.

Used Pro & Prosumer Camcorders (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?ci=15330&N=4294210518+4291215468)

Sorry your last purchase didn't work out but you could look at this as an opportunity to get the perfect cam for you at a pretty good price from the most reliable vendor out there.

The 150 is more money than either of the 2100's. what do you like the 150 better? Thanks.

It's only $100 more for a tool you will use for your business for a long time, and solves your date/time issue. If the 170 were only $100 more than that I'd recommend that, as it's newer, but it includes a WA adapter you don't need and costs too much.

If this was just a hobby and you were doing three-minute YouTube skateboard videos I'd say go with the VX, but this is your livelihood.

This time of year is particularly bad for all the holidays. All I can say is you gotta work around them. At least B&H always has a huge banner when you go to any page so you can't possibly miss it.

Thanks, Just to make sure I am reading you right. How does the 150 solve my time stamp issue.

We covered this in posts 18 through 23 of this very thread. The 150/170 has a feature called DATE REC that the VXes don't which permanently burns the date and time visually into your picture, no matter how or where it is played back. It's why most PIs and Lawyers use this cam. The date and time cannot be erased or changed so courts love them.

WoW! I totally missed that. THANKS

........
Adorama keeps taking holidays. Geesh! They need some folks of another faith to hold the fort while they honor their faith.
I'm no atheist but before I make another purchase from Adorama or B&H I'll have to look at the dates to see if they interfere with my shipping or return policy term.
Since I have made the purchase they have had two holidays that have inconvenienced me a great deal. This and some bum batteries has me a tad bitter.
To top it off I have had assignments that I needed the camcorder on. Oh Well. I'll live.

At Adorama we do appreciate that our closing times can be inconvenient to some of our potential customers.
Adorama's owner is an observant orthodox Jewish gentleman, whose beliefs prohibit him - his family and his business - from operating on the Sabbath and on many of the religious holidays (which all begin an hour prior to sunset the evening before the day of the holiday, which is why we close early on Fridays).

We can't employ non-Jews here during those days, because to do so would involve the company conducting business - which is forbidden in Jewish Law.

Most holidays are actually only one or two days; two are week-long holidays. We do try to minimize inconvenience to our customers, by publicizing our closing dates well in advance.
After the holiday(s) end(s), we do reopen our sales and shipping departments as soon as possible in order to deal with the inevitable backlog of orders.
We would also take on add additional staff in the customer service, sales and shipping departments if necessary to help reduce backlogs and speed up the service to our customers.

In this era of 24-hour commerce, I guess it's unusual to find that there really are still people who consider their spiritual duty to be more important than squeezing money out of our customers at every opportunity. I receive frequent emails from customers who state that in this day and age it is comforting to know there are people around who do not place money before all else.

Many businesses in the US and elsewhere in the world force employees to work on holidays when the time is better spent with their friends and families - or just relaxing by themselves.

We are grateful for the understanding of our customers that this is an important element of our owner's value system. Perhaps the following links to articles in the Washington Post & the New York Times will help to make some sense of our closure policies:


Ruling Guides Orthodox Sites' Sabbath Sales - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB109269113906892796-IVjg4NnlaJ3o5yubXSHaK6Jm4.html)


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/09/technology/09ecom.html?_r=1&oref=slogin


BTW I'm only an email away for advice and / or after-sales support with any order from Adorama Camera.

Congratulations on such a cogent response, tho' I do hope you guys really don't spend too much time "squeezing money out of our customers" (the long shadow of the "Merchant of Venice" hangs a bit heavy over that phrase) that would never do at all.

Let's stick with "making an honest buck", sounds infinately better.

More power to your elbow for that and for sticking to your beliefs, heck, not too many today believe in anything.

My belief in wine, women, cigarettes and the wife is unshakeable, tho' of late the wife has been looking a tad dubious at times (probably mutual) and the "women" have seemingly gone extinct (must have been an asteroid impact) but still, it's a belief system.

Good luck with yours, er, theirs, er, whatever, not half as much fun as mine, but each to their own.


CS

I too commend your boss for taking the stand.

If only a few more in executive position committed to the moral high ground versus the bottom line, much of our current social malaise might be alleviated.

The argument that we must flog the workforce to compete with offshore labor conditions is flawed and longterm creates an unbalanced economy in which increasingly more people cannot have a place.

Even if we so strip away work conditions that our workers also have little time off, make camp in the carpark because there is no longer time to commute and have to piss in cans at the workstations so that productivity won't be lost, the offshore countries will find ways to drive their own workforce even harder.

Once the spring on the dancing bear has wound down and our own economies have collapsed because everyone is fair average backside hanging out working poor or unemployed, then the our own big players and offshore companies will have no furthur use for us and our own society and values will have been sacrificed - for what?

Free enterpise will not change the rules. Competition decrees that it cannot afford to. It is up to governments to set the benchmarks and for people of real moral worth, conscience and committment to get involved.

I would hope that your boss or such as him of similar moral conviction would become such persons eventually even if prejudice against his particular faith might unfortunately prevail. We certainly do not need people who lie, mislead, play smart games and steal valour to manufacture their political cachet to drive our economy and our moral worth by flawed leadership into the ground.

If this involves the reinstatement of protective tariffs to preserve an essential core of skills and intellectual property and punish those offshore economies who take commercial advantage of our own work laws by abusing those of their own people, then so be it.



Sorry about the political rant. (Button pushed and red mist has risen.)

Thanks for your understanding; in a society that these days seems to take for granted that we all sleep with our i-phones under our pillows and work a relentless 60 or 70 hours a week, this really is a special time for us to be with family and friends.

OK, OK, I just vented my frustration over all the breaks in the action I get from you and other vendors of the same faith. No disrespect for the faith but gosh! When trying to do something in a timely manner and a vendor keeps tossing in delays for WHATEVER reason, its still a major pain on my end.

The holidays aside, you guys have been great!!!
I will continue to consider you but will ask on the phone of the holiday schedule before ordering and see how it comes into play with my schedule.
Perhaps you can post a calendar? Or did I miss that too?

Thanks

Jewish holidays 2000?2050 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_holidays_2000-2050)

Rosh HaShanah 2 days
Yom Kippur 1 day
Sukkot 4 days
Pesach 4 days
Shavuot 2 days

However, if any of the holy days fall on a Saturday, this would be included in the above - not tagged onto the end.

Allen,
Since you are still shopping I would take a look, as previously mentioned, at the Panasonic AG DVC30. You can still purchase them used. I had one for 3 years and used it in low light conditions with good results. It is small, built like a tank (metal exterior) and has excellent optics with a 16x lens. It also has "time stamp" which is what you need. I always felt it was designed for covert work. You can read about it here http://www.panasonic.com/business/provideo/support/includes/pdf/resource-center/application-solutions/AG-DVC30M.pdf
and very long discussion here http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/panasonic-dvx-dvc-assistant/22519-ag-dvc30-various-topics.html
Should be able to get one under $1,000 with less than 200 hours on it. Also K&M Electronics http://www.kmelectronics.com/index2.htm over in Loganville, GA works on them and you might want to give them a call.

Sorry for the delay here as I don't like leaving my posts hanging. You may have found in other threads I have a PD170 now and am Very pleased.

Thanks Guys