I'm trying to set up an internal package pricing formula and was wondering how some of the more established guy have done it. I know alot of it has to do with quality of the product, experience, which events are covered, and so on.

I have broken it down to the most simple aspects of my business. The first is the amount of time that I spend shooting, transfering, editing, rendering, DVD authoring, and DVD/case preparation. I don't think it's far fetched to say that it could be as much as 40-60 hours per client. So then I have to decide how much my time is worth (this is a night and weekend gig for me and I work 44 hours per week with my day job). The next thing I consider is the cost of supplies, such as DVDs, cases, case covers, and ink. If I really wanted to get technical, I could include electricity and personal car mileage. Finally I consider the wear and tear on my equipment, such as camera, computer equipment, sound equipment, and tripod/monopod. If depreciated over a two year period, I have determined how much would I have to charge in addition to labor to make enough money to replace these items, if I do one wedding a month on average over two years. Even if I don't have to replace some items after two years, I still have to recoup the money I shelled out for the equipment in the first place. Additionally, I didn't even include potential advertising expenses.

I was amazed that what I have calculated above is actually very close to what the going rate is in this area. Can anyone confirm or reject my line of thinking? How do you set pricing?

No one has an opinion on this or have I been black listed?

For younger companies and those who do not do this full time, I think the formula needs to be heavily weighted to include the current market value in your area. As you get more experience and the quality goes up, I think you can get closer to what your time is actually worth but I think many of us make a pretty low rate per hour if we were to do the math that way. If you look at photography as an example, there is more demand for that product and it is essentially a staple for any wedding. Because of that, many photographers do very well with providing mediocre quality. If you consider the amount of time that goes into a photo edit as compared to a video edit, as well as the additonal editing equipment needed, a video should be, in my opinion at least 150% of a reasonable photography charge. Now if you try charging that in the beginning, I think you will have a lot of weekends off.

I am sure that most do, however most may consider this a "trade" secret. A quick google search of your area brings up some info:

http://www.thebridesbook.com/marketplace.php

Check out what others are doing. In your area it looks like the starting rate is $775.00 and tops out at $2,000. Do some research. What I charge for weddings will be different than what is charged in Seattle, New York ect. "Know thy market." This is the best advice I can give, if you have an idea what the market is you can go from there. Network with the people in your area. In an informal survey conduted by a group that I belong to, estimates only 10 to 15% of brides actually research and book a videoagrapher so there is pleanty of work to go around. Also look at your skill and product compared to others and "honestly" ask yourself if your product is up to par. Don't talk yourself up and beyond your own abillity. If you promise the moon, you had beter be able to deliver.

Don't rely on your market to set YOUR pricing...

YOU set your pricing according to COST!

Market Pricing is a bunch of people who include those who are setting their pricing at pennies per hour and not operating a true business.

-DJ
www.DavidChandler-Gick.com

This is a wedding related forum. For that type of work, I think it is really poor advice to tell somebody to ignore what the market is doing and focus solely on your costs. Our business would not have started the same way if we had followed that route.

Don't rely on your market to set YOUR pricing...

YOU set your pricing according to COST!

Market Pricing is a bunch of people who include those who are setting their pricing at pennies per hour and not operating a true business.

-DJ
www.DavidChandler-Gick.com

This is simply bad advice. For two main reasons:

(a) how do you know what your true costs are? and even if you did claim to know your entire costs and were able to apportion them properly:

(b) how are you going to compete if someone undercuts you with apparently the same product?

I believe most people come to the conclusion that you price according to your competition and the alternatives the customer is looking at. Every successful business and industry does it this way for a reason. Including, as you say: a "true business" whatever that is.

You are "only" interested in costs, to keep them down, and your margin up.

-----
Martin at HeadSpin (www.headspin.plus.com)

Don't rely on your market to set YOUR pricing...

YOU set your pricing according to COST!

Market Pricing is a bunch of people who include those who are setting their pricing at pennies per hour and not operating a true business.

-DJ
www.DavidChandler-Gick.com

Ok I'll bite, I read the info on your site, I will say that there are good examples on some levels, however most people who don't check out what others are doing will end up out of business as well. For most this starts as a hobby and works toward being a full-time gig. Some don't want it that way though. As for myself I had to "work-up" to being able to do it. By that I mean I looked (and still look) at what the market is doing. When I started I had no desire to pony-up the type of costs that would have me doing it full-time right away. Instead I built a nice NLE system, and would rent the equipment I needed per shoot. (I added this into my cost, and charged for it) It took a little over a year of not making quite what I wanted, however I was able to save and purchase the rest of the cameras and equipment I needed. Now what I make I keep, and am able to re-direct into my advertising ect. This takes time, and while not exactly the ultimate business model, it is the one that will keep you going and pay-as-you-go so to speak. Nobody wants debt, and I think that if you are really going to do this you need to keep yourself out of debt. One of the main reasons business close would be due to un-controlled debt. We are talking about events and weddings, not a company that does corp. work all of the time, paceing yourself is key. Do not spend so much that you take the joy out what is a great job. If you don't enjoy it or are stressed out to the point of pulling your hair out, this may not be the job for you. Money is importaint, yet if you manage your resources well , plan ahead for those shows ect, and use rental to plug the holes and re-direct some profits into your infrastructure I think you will be pleased with the results, you will truly own your business. And that in its self may be enough.

Tim,
I'm in the process of coming up with my prices as well. Devin said to 'Know thy market'. That is EXCELLENT advice. The MARKET sets the price, NOT your costs. Five thousand dollars worth of video gear and another five thousand in editing equipment does NOT justify charging 8 grand per shoot.

The first thing I did was turn to the trusty Yellow Pages and find all the wedding videographers in my area and those fairly close to my area. I went to their websites and printed out their specific packages, rates, etc. If everyone is charging 500 bucks for the works, I know that I would be out of line to charge 1,800. There would be little business, if any. Of course it also depends on how much VOLUME you would like to have. If you want to do only 3-6 weddings a year, charging more may be the way to go. If you never want to spend Saturday with the wife or kids, you can charge a lot less.

I've visited a few sites where I thought that the individual/company was practically GIVING away their services, charging way too little for the amount of work involved. However, for the 'bride on a budget,' it's probably right up their alley!

Hope that helps.

This is simply bad advice. For two main reasons:

(a) how do you know what your true costs are? and even if you did claim to know your entire costs and were able to apportion them properly:

(b) how are you going to compete if someone undercuts you with apparently the same product?

Let's see...

Some schmuck is undercharging for a professional service and in the end is paying himself $1.50/hr, or worse, producing a krappe product that hurts the reputation of our industry, and you think I should look at him for determining what I should charge...?

It's basic business 101. You do not charge less than cost if you want to stay in business. That's so simple an 8 year old with a lemonade stand understands that.

a) uh... How about something called RESEARCH? Is there even a market for you to join? Or is it already oversaturated with low ballers? What does equipment cost? Insurance? Marketing? Labor? Taxes? Rent?

Ever heard the expression "a failure to plan is a plan for failure?" Ever wonder what they meant by that?

b) you compete on quality. You compete on service. You compete via networking.

You don't compete on price. Aim high. RAISE the bar, do not lower it.

Sadly, so many people think that $900 they are charging is "income" - It's not. It's sales. How about what you pay your labor (including yourself) for work performed. Don't forget the cameras and editing system and electricity consumed. What about business cards, advertising, bridal shows, insurance, vacation? What about continuing education, batteries... Furniture?

These are all expenses that most startups (be it video or a coffee shop) fail to fully account for.

I've been in this biz a long time. I've made the mistakes. I see the same mistakes being made regularly. But hey... What do I know?

Go ahead, stay in the basement. Keep the industry in the toilet.

I'm sorry, but I cannot respect anyone who doesn't respect themselves enough to strive for more, not less.

Ok I'll bite, I read the info on your site, I will say that there are good examples on some levels, however most people who don't check out what others are doing will end up out of business as well.

I don't agree. What the next guy is doing is irrelevant.

Take care of your own business, and strive to educate the next guy in the process.

Videography, unlike a lot of established industries, became an industry bass-ackwards. And that's the #1 reason it's not thriving.

Hobbyists decided to make some extra money on weekends, and quickly, an industry was born. The problem? People are still looking at this industry with that hobbyist mentality, instead of as a BUSINESS.

As it is, it artificially keeps prices down, and businesses dropping like flies when they cannot maintain quality, pace, or upkeep.

I know because I made these same mistakes.

I'm not preaching from some ivory tower, here. I'm in the trenches, doing it day in and day out.

Every week I hear about videographer woes, and it's done to ourselves. BY ourselves.

We are in control of our own destiny.

We want to raise the bar, but when you start out you have to look at the market value of the product you are selling. When your new you don't have the experience to justify the new higher rate that a veteran would be asking for. You need to look at you own work, and the work of others that are making a comparable product, and set the rates according to that.

Brides aren't stupid and they aren't going to pay one and a half times the going rate for the same product that another company can deliver. And they definitely won't do it for someone starting out.

Start at the market rate, develop your skill set, and then raise the level. There will always be people at the lower end because people need to start somewhere, but once you get the first few done you can adjust for the correct pricing that you really want.

When you start out it's a long term investment that doesn't see a direct return on your initial hours.

Ben

Just look at it this way... a potential client comes to you because you are charging the same as the others, only you don't have anything to show for it because you're starting out... who do you think they are going to choose? You have to start somewhere and people aren't going to go with you because you "say" you can do it, you have to show them you can. Set your prices so you'll get the business and experience you need according to your capability, then work your way up.

Let's see...

I've been in this biz a long time. I've made the mistakes. I see the same mistakes being made regularly. But hey... What do I know?

Go ahead, stay in the basement. Keep the industry in the toilet.

I'm sorry, but I cannot respect anyone who doesn't respect themselves enough to strive for more, not less.

Let's not get personal, David.

If you wish to imply:

- I have the logic of an 8 year old,
- I know nothing about business,
- I am making mistakes,
- I am in the basement and keeping this industry in the toilet, and
- I don't respect myself

...well, that is your perogative, but throwing derogatory cliches at me is not very constructive, and I'm not sure whether or how you benefit either.

You make some valid points, as I believe do I, but your approach is that of someone who knows it all better than anyone.

I couldn't get anyone to post for a couple days after starting this thread, but look at it now. Boy did I start something! I can't thank you guys enough for all the different angles. Really, you are all correct. There are so many different factors to consider when setting price. It's probably wise to keep an eye on the market in this area. I would also be nice to have some work to compare against. At the same time, there are justifications for charging more or less than the market price. I DO enjoy this line of work, but at the same time I want to make money as well. I did a freeby for my cousin the first time and charged $500 last weekend. The second one was for the son of a good friend and coworker, and she just happens to direct 12 or more weddings a year. She has already lined me up for two $1200-1400 weddings in September. I hope to charge $1500 for the whole shooting match after that.

I just found it interesting that after paying myself a decent wage for approximately 50 hours of work and throwing a decent amount towards equipment and supplies, puts my pricing around $1500. Thanks for your input.

Tim

I just found it interesting that after paying myself a decent wage for approximately 50 hours of work and throwing a decent amount towards equipment and supplies, puts my pricing around $1500. Thanks for your input.

But what about the 100 hours you spend working on the business, but not being able to bill anyone for?

This is a passionate subject for me. And I see so many people NOT considering everything like they have it figured out. That ignoring the facts make them irrelevant... This is dangerous.

Why re-invent the wheel? Whups... Sorry. cliche.

Why make the same mistakes when you can learn from the mistakes made by others?

All I ask is that you consider EVERYTHING... Not just the feelgood stuff.

-DJ

P.S. to Martin: I don't imply. My apologies for you taking my post in a way that was not intended.

OK, David, I obviously took your post the wrong way.

I, like you, am passionate about pricing being one of the most important decisions for business survival - and I don't think that you should necessarily go as LOW as the lowest in the market, rather be aware of what others are charging when customers are making comparisons.

I have recently found that continually and gradually putting prices UP actually makes you more attractive to some customers...

OK, David, I obviously took your post the wrong way.

I, like you, am passionate about pricing being one of the most important decisions for business survival - and I don't think that you should necessarily go as LOW as the lowest in the market, rather be aware of what others are charging when customers are making comparisons.

I have recently found that continually and gradually putting prices UP actually makes you more attractive to some customers...

I agree, it wasn't until I charged at least $1,200 and felt my skill set was worth the price, that I really started to book.

"But what about the 100 hours you spend working on the business, but not being able to bill anyone for?"

I'm sure I've spent more than 100 hours working on the business, but it takes time to actually build the business to the point that a pure profit is made. I am still in the process of paying for all my equipment. I just had business cards made. I plan on having lettering put on my car. I would like to buy another FX1, tripod, mic setup, lanc controller, mixer, and so on. I eventually want to purchase a web server so that I can host my own web page. I don't think I'll see pure profit for a couple years, but in the meanwhile I plan to acquire some new toys and atleast make "lunch money."

and its that "lunch money" that sets a precedent for pricing in teh video production industry, being that as its not your primary income, your pricing really does not carry the $$ value of what it actually can..
So business hat on..

Heres a scenario..
For me who lives off the money i make doing this and relyingon the income to pay off a house, materials, a business etc etc and who charges $500 more than you, i have to compete with you for a job.. OK, fair enough.. we all have to compete..

however, if you charge $500 less, youve already got me on price.. simple, no brainer, ok..
But i get a potential client taking my demo to you, and says to you, i want you to do my video like this .. would you do it? Of course you would, as you want the job...

But then, my work is devalued, as not only have i lost the job to you coz your "cheaper' , but youre also copying my work.. so if you do this afew times, with afew different people, and the next newbie does the same thing.. Im not making any money, but you guys are... why??
Coz ur cheaper...
And when your cheap what happens? How much value is actually put INTO the product once recieved? Forget emotional value, but mentality value.. what mental picture are you drawing for the industry if your giving out a $3000 job for half that?
Are you valuing your skills, experience and equipment or are u just tryin to make a quick $1500??
Are u setting a precedent for the rest of the producers out there? Is it fair to give the public market a view that a $3000 job is actually only worth $1500 because YOURE offering that much? And what happens when youre the only one offering that for $1500? Are u busy dealing with good clients who respect your work or are u dealing with tightassed clients who have a champaigne diet on a lemonade budget?
OK, moving on..
So i drop my prices to get my potential clients back.. ok fair enough.. we all have to make sacrifices.. but considering the fact i live off the money i make, and you dont, this means that im not making as much for the same amount of work.. im working harder to compete with you, as my yearly quote of 40 jobs, needs to increase to 50 to make up the differences in loss because i must compete with you....
Now, Im forced to compete with an amateur or a newbie.. but i have my skill, experience and other goodies up my sleave, not to mention the fact that my product is probably very different to yours.. but in the end, people just want a decent DVD.. no amount of fluff will ever change that...

Ok, so you do this for a year..
Then what??
You notice that your workload is gettin a lil full on and you cant keep up with the editing.. people are asking you to shoot, almost every weekend.. and the clients you thought were ok, are asking u to drop the price for cash payments, they also want preshoots, and interviews and fotoslideshows etc etc..
But your clients are on a lemonade budget arent they? Now they want to pay for more..? U mean to say they actually HAD money to pay full price.. ?? Of course they did... they just didnt tell you coz they were tryin to milk you.. and rip you off.. Mind you they wouldnt go to KMart and grab a hairdryer for 60bux, take it to the counter then offer to pay 40 coz they wanna pay cash.. So what makes this different?

Moving on..
ok... you quit your full time job and focus on this industry..
Alrighty then.. you have a load of gear, kick ass pcs and you know what works for you and what doesnt..
You have a website happening and you get 5 to 10 queries a day for 2 directory listings.. you send out demos, you drive out to see clients and potentials, and all that other stuff...

You have bills but no regular income... your income is now only from the wedding jobs you take...
As you used to be cheap, the money you made went towards new gear.. Your now not making enough money to survive, and as winter is coming theres not much left in the coffers..... but you spent most of your money on new gear... and now you have winter coming and bills to pay.. but no work

So what do you do.. naturally, youd increase your prices to survive..

where are you now??

Your in my shoes..

2 months later.. another dude starts his business down the road and is $500 cheaper than you...

What have you got now??
A friggin ugly circle of bad business practices which DO NOT EVOLVE. Youre left with an industry which CANNOT evolve if these practices continue...

Put it this way, the less "professionals" charge, the more and more precedents are set.
With this, each one of us must continuously justify what we do, when we shouldnt have to. Each one of us must continue to justify the DIFFERENCES as to WHY I deserve more than the next guy.
Now dont forget, the photographer is doing MUCH less work than me.. so why should he make more $$ ? His job is much easier, and doesnt require all the post production crap that i put up with.
But its ok, coz youre happy to take $1500 while the Photogrpaher scratches his ass and laughs all the way to the bank..

The reason the video market is seen as substandard is because WE have made it so. It evolved from a fairly decent living to this..
We offered cheap prices, We accepted the extended work, we took on impossible jobs for peanuts, we gave out freebies to score a job, we were lazy and used preset effects which cheapened the process, we didnt provide the client with what was promised, we offered a crap product and above all, we didnt EDUCATE the client as to how much work is involved.
(We as in, in the past by producers who are prolly no longer in business... )

We MUST change this.. if we want our careers to become a viable source of income, we must work smarter, not harder..

All i can say is that ive seen so many demos that ive increased my prices, why? coz i can, and if people want the cheap shit, they can have it. Teyre not gettin it from me, and im not gonna bust my arse for one more day simply coz im tryin to compete with anyone else.
I now tell my clients that if they want fancy home video, look elsewhere. If they want discounts, forget it. If they want me to price match, I'll offer a product match.
Sorry but people hire ME for ME and MY service, MY equipment and MY talent..
They want to pay for it, good, if they dont, theres the door.
They can see the work and judge for themselves...
They want to know more, read the contract and my website, i leave nothing to mystery.
Ive gotten so angry over the last few weeks about this, that its really pissing me off to a point of throwing the towel in coz of newbies who continue to devalue what we do WITHIN THE INDUSTRY. And from here on, i wont compete with that.
I tell my clients that people get what they pay for.
If they want experience, service and quality, they have to pay for it.

end of rant

Peter,

I remember seeing some of your posts in the past and I believe what you say adds value. I see your point, but I think it's all about experience. I understand your frustration, but the market here just won't pull $3K videographers consistently. This is not Boston, New York, or even Raleigh. Wilmington definitely isn't a major metropolitan area. Secondly, I am less seasoned. I have seen some $3K pieces of work and I'm not there yet, even if the market could support those prices. Before I book a client, I make sure to show them my work so that they know what they are getting for the price. Each time I do an event, my shooting style and editing get more technical. I become more proficient with each event, so that gives me time to add a little spice to the mix. I don't use alot of special effects, yet. But each product I deliver looks even more impressive than the last.

I don't promise the moon and the stars because there's the risk not being able to deliver. My work speaks for itself and my clients know what they are getting. As my experience grows, my skill and my clientel will grow as well. Maybe at that point I can quit my day job and then I'll be in your shoes. In the meanwhile, it's up to the couple to decide whether they are willing to pay for the experience (which likely will result in slightly higher quality). I think there's a market for videographers like both of us. Your experience level gets the big jobs and the people with deep pockets. If your work is reflected in your price, then that's all you. My experience level gets me less deep pockets, but enough to help me get established. That takes the more modest budgets off your hands.

What have you got now??
A friggin ugly circle of bad business practices which DO NOT EVOLVE. Youre left with an industry which CANNOT evolve if these practices continue...


Phew - one can clearly see the passion - and the point.

I must agree with Peter. Its the new people screwing it for the older hands. My first two weddings were for FREE - with the clear understanding that my equipment was new and I had to gain the experience with the cameras and made no promises as to what would happen if something went wrong - that I made VERY clear - there were no promises as to what I would deliver (what I did say was that I promised to do the very best I could).

After delivering both those first two dvd's, I have been referred by these same two couples - its become like a family tree from there. I can mostly trace a referral customer back to these first two couples.

Once I had done these two - I set my pricing and didn't budge one iota on pricing - and I still don't and will not! In fact, I have done pricing comparisons in our industry and would say that I am a wee bit more expensive than others - but then I get the jobs which I WANT to do - not those that I am forced to because I need the money - and yes, this business and the other video work I do pays my bills and keeps me eating.

Do the practice for free with a clear understanding and THEN set and stick with your pricing - if you know your work is good, charge for it. If you offer cheap prices, people must be happy with cheap quality - and it DOES irk me that a photographer gets the best end of the stick, we do do a damn side more work than they do and mostly get the hind t*% when it comes to payment!

just my .02

Cheers

hey tim, i didnt mean that post to be directed at you, but i was showing teh circle in which we "evolve' or dont evolve actually..

I see where your coming from, and my first solo job i scored i charged 400AUD ... now the edit itself was far more valued than the shooting, as i knew what shots i wanted, but i didnt know how to get it..
This was more for learning than anything else..

but until then.. in my early days i was charging like 800AU JUST to get a portfolio..
once these pissy jobs came out, people started digging deeper..
this went on for like 6 months..
the cheap jobs got EVERYTHING... but in teh end i had a product to show for it..

people then moved to the larger packages as within these smaller packages i offered what the larger packages had..

then i slowly killled off the smaller packages..

from there it just blew and pretty much all the work is now anything between 1700 and 3grand AUD sometimes we hit 4 and even 5grand.. but on average were looking at about 1500 to 2500USD

Now the more of these i do, the more of these i show.. in the meantime, i slowly cut out elements from the smaller packages.. such as highlights etc .. and offer that as an extra OR these "come standard with the larger packages" .. see where im going with this?

Slowly migrating the product to a higher value and ADDING value to a product by forcing a sale or by selling a larger package altogether.
Also, with the smaller package ($1400AUD nothign to sneaze at) I have a disclaimer saying that it may not be available during peak season. Reason that is is that i dont wnat to make peanuts at a time when i can be shooting a job which will give me 3 times that much money. very simple concept. If they want us in peak season, theyre not gonna get us unless theyre happy to pay for a FULL package...
Eventually that final small package wil be killed off also. but i use it as a marketing tool to get people in at least.. so having somethgn realtively cheap can work, if to only get peoples attention.

Anyways, Id rather go without that job and focus on editing if thats the case.
Take advantage of the seasons.. everybody else does..

now it took me1 yr planning, 2 years with open business and one FULL advertised season to get to this, full season i mean November through to March (summertime here in AUS) Now thats not a long time.
I learnt the hard way and im still sufferng from it.. i worked my ass off.. but it paid off and im still working on jobs from the last season.
My coming season has alrady started.. so ive evolved those prices.. and ive also set DIFFERENT prices for people gettin married NEXT YEAR.. why should they pay this years rates??

see what i mean??
Theres alot more to think about than just doing the job.. charge what your value is worth and evovle it with each job.
Also being so cheap people may not take you seriously..

but we all gotta start somewhere..

Peter - you should be asleep already - it must be WAY past midnight in Oz :)

Cheers

Peter,

I completely agree with your sentiment. I also plan to expand my packages and phase out the smaller packages in the future. At that point, the smaller packages may not be available during peak season. I don't want to spend the peak months doing smaller jobs when I can be doing larger jobs. Once again, I'm not there yet. IMHO, $1200 to $1500 US is reasonable for doing rehearsal dinner, ceremony, bridal prep, and reception for a less seasoned videographer like me. My product is professional, but it may not be award winning just yet. As my product is polished, I will start charging around $1500 for bridal prep, ceremony, and reception only. I will have larger packages for that plus rehearsal dinner, highlight clip, and other miscellaneous items. Maybe one day I'll be able to hit $3K US, but for now I want to get my name out there. I want my clients to feel that they got their moneys worth and then some. If they feel that way, they'll surely refer my services to others. As my experience grows, so will my prices. You won't see me doing anymore $500 weddings for sure. I have already taken off those training wheels. The $500 wedding was for the son of a family friend, coworker, and WEDDING DIRECTOR. She has offered to promote me to her clients. She has convinced her wedding director friends to promote me. Her best friends own a bridal boutique and she has them excited about promoting me. And finally, she has already booked me two jobs for September. It's nowhere but up from here. Thanks for your guidance.

I've seen conversations like this before, and it always seems to boil down to established people trying to convince newcomers to charge more so they won't have to cut their prices to compete. But we all know that the best way to get started in this business is to offer modest prices, because no one's going to hire an inexperienced person if they're charging as much as a company that's been doing videos for 20 years.

So it's inevitable that the newcomers are going to charge low prices because they have to to get started, and that means it's up to more established folks to command the price they feel they deserve through superior quality and salesmanship. If you can't convince a customer to pay you $3000 for a wedding video because there are several other companies willing to do it for $1500 and the customer likes their work, then it's up to you to improve your presentation to the customer to change that. If everyone reading this raises their prices to $3000 today, there will be another crop of $1500 videographers tomorrow, so there's no point losing sleep over this.

Like it or not, it's the free market that ultimately sets prices, not what any of us think is fair. If supply versus demand of videographers means the average going price for a wedding video is (say) $1500, then that's what it's going to be. Either figure out a way to rise above the average, find a way to work with the average, or find something else to do that pays you what you think your time is worth.

P.S. Everyone who charges less than *I* do should raise their prices. :-)

Well said Kevin! I don't plan to stay with those rates long though. Supply versus demand is key here. As clientel increases, experience increases, and quality increases, thus so will rates.

wow, this is turning into quite a passionate topic.

imho, this is actually the same in wedding photography. the inexperienced guys charge around $500, the middle-of-the-road guys charge about $1500 and there are guys that charge $3k and beyond. the difference is in experience and quality (which are not mutually exclusive). add to that the guys that have no porfolios that do weddings for free. heck, it's the same in any business in the creative industry (print, web, animation, direction, post production, etc.): charge less at first or do some free gigs to get the word out, build a portfolio and recoup some startup cost, then adjust to the market as you get established. eventually, you get to step 3, which is quit your day job and live off of the profits.

do you think an inexperienced film director with a limited reel should charge as much as stephen speilberg? even if they do, will any studio be stupid enough to bite?

an inexperienced or low-quality videographer charging $3k for a wedding is not going to get any business. therefore, they charge less so they can gain experience and get better. we've all been there. it's part of the two year business plan. imo, this does not hurt me, because i am not in the market of doing budget weddings. to the guys that undercut me by $500 bucks, i can tell brides with confidence that my work is better. i can show it to them by showing them my work. they can choose to save $500 or spend it to get a better quality product and service.

i'm in southern california. starting out, i did 2 weddings for free and one for $200 (answering a craigslist ad). after that (and now armed with a portfolio with varied examples of my work), my packages were from $1500- $2500, where they stay today. next year, prices are going to go up because i'm getting really good at this, and my 2005 reel will show it.

in this market, i compete against guys that charge anywhere from $800 to $7k. i don't worry about their prices. what i worry about is competing on quality. i see some of the great work on this board and i try to do better while keeping my distinctive style. that said, you have to look at other people's prices to make sure you are in sync with the market. not being sensitive to market trends in your industry is simply not taking care of your business.

am i doing this for lunch money? i guess you can call it that because i make videogames in the daytime. but no matter how lucrative my wedding business gets (i'm doing pretty darn well, actually), i love making videogames and i will probably continue to do so for a very long time. i like the fact that from monday to friday i can work on creative ways of killing people and then get a break to do the romantic stuff on the weekends. it keeps me grounded, and gives me and my projects variety. i love both jobs, why do i have to choose just one?

when videogames cease to be fun to make, i will quit. when wedding videos cease to be fun to make, i will quit. i've worked with some jaded vendors, and that's not going to be me. i'm not going to be the guy complaining about why i have to use the same etta james song day in and day out. if that ever happens, i will evolve and find another way to make money while remaining creatively challenged. for now, i love what i do and i bring that joy to every project i work on, bloody or bridal. ;-)

IMHO, $1200 to $1500 US is reasonable for doing rehearsal dinner, ceremony, bridal prep, and reception for a less seasoned videographer like me.

10 years ago BETA SP single camera setup with audio package would get $750-$1500 day rate - JUST FOR PRODUCTION! No editing.

Let's see, 10 years later, gas goes up.

Milk goes up.

Newspaper goes up.

Housing goes up.

Professional Video goes down...

"I've seen conversations like this before, and it always seems to boil down to established people trying to convince newcomers to charge more so they won't have to cut their prices to compete. "

see this is where my point is missunderstood .. to a certain extent......
Its not JUST about competing with a newbie.... as a whole, its about CREATING a market and manipulating it in a way to increase its true value for what its really worth..
We cant do that if this circle continues..
TO me, if a newbie wants to get into the industry I HIRE THEM. I let them shoot, and they can keep a copy. From there they create a portfolio with MY clients. THEN when they get afew jobs under their belts, they charge the approximate industry rate (but not stupidly cheap), AND i still have another camera guy who i can call on when i need them.
It works wel for everyone, and the value remains at a decent level.

Newbies can charge less, hell you gotta start somewhere, BUT theres gotta be a point where one says to himself.. what PRECEDENT am i setting for this industry 5 years down the line?
Where will i be 5 years from now?
What other gear will i need in 5 years? How much more work is required?
Think about HDV as an example, not only are you needing to aqcuire a HDV cam, but you need to adjust your workflow to suit... this takes time and money and if you DONT charge whats appropriate, theres no point in upgrading... why? to make another $5?? TO be better than the next guy??

If your in this game to have fun, then its a pretty expensive hobby if you ask me.. but if your in it for the love of it, and for the fact that you can enjoy what you do while making money, then do it properly and think ahead.
Be cheaper if you have to, but dont join the bandwagon and be stupidly cheap.. not only does it make it hard to justify higher prices, but it also stuffs around with peoples mentalities as to the VALUE of what we do...
If we can VALUE what we do, we can charge accordingly.
Its convincing people that there IS value in video.... and you cant do that by looking at the production as a game...

With my system of taking on a newbie, it works well, ive done it for 4 guys in one season, now i have 4 camera rigs of my own, and their own 3, i can easily take 7 jobs on for the same day.... now not only does this give me an exceess of work which is ridiculous, but $$ worthy, but it taks business away from the other video producers, whod be able to focus more on the client than the numbers...
BUT these guys also being newbies, are now running theyre own business' but theyre not charging LOW LOW prices.. Thyeve got the experience coz i gave them the opprtunity to gain it... theyve got the portfolio coz i give them copies of their work.... So all that is established BEFORE they go public with their business..
Yes, theyre cheaper than me, but theres a reason for it, but at least theyre not slitting their own throats 5 yrs from now..
Then when ANOTHER newbie starts and approaches them for work, they will do the same for this guy, and when this guy is ready to spread his wings, he WONT NEED to be CHEAP CHEAP...

So if this system is used over and over again, with different crews and companies, even newbies can start charging reasonable rates on the outset... but not screw up the $$ value or the way the industry is seen...
Eventually the value of video will increase and continue to increase...
Photographers have been doing this for years... im just baffled as to why video hasnt followed..

David,

Your comparing apples and oranges.

10 years ago beta was a very expensive format to get into. In addition, the operator had to be a professional to properly utilize the camera. It was high end then and even today a beta cam will still get a better picture in some ways than a dv camera will. Operators are still making between $750 and $1200 a day right now for production only, but the format now is HD.

Today, video entry costs are very low and equipment is self explanitory. Thus, the lower cost of productions. The income is not as high, but neither is the investment.

Compare VHS camera rates from 10 years ago with DV camera rates from today and see what you get.

Ben Lynn

"Today, video entry costs are very low and equipment is self explanitory. Thus, the lower cost of productions. The income is not as high, but neither is the investment.'

see this is where the problem lay..

"video costs are very low and equipment is explanatory"
Yes, youre right 100%, no doubt about it, you hit it on the head.. BUT you mention "lower cost of productions"

Why is it lower? Is it lower because i bough my camera at a cheaper price than it was 5 years ago?? But, by doing that does WHAT I DO WITH IT mean that MY time, effort and skill are of a lower value?? the amount of time i spend editing... is that less in value coz my computer is now cheaper... ?

"The income is not as high but neither is teh investment.. "
OK, well, consider a 2 cam company runnign 2 edit stations.. lighting, tripods,wireless mics blah blah...
Now consider a photographers rig.. 1 camera, 4 lenses, memory cards a PC and photoshop... maybe a range of albums, outsource work to a developer.. and thats it.. this whole setup would cost me 1 friggin video camera..

But not only are their cameras cheaper, but they dont have buy a load of software.. they dont have the post production work, but they charge double what we do.. .
So what you say.. to me anyway, carries no logic and carries no weight..
Nothing personal, but those comments only verify that yes, prices are cheaper NOW for the aqcquisition and edit, however, can you value someones skill and experience WITH those acquisition tools??

i can get a toolkit for a hundred bux or a toolkit for a grand and tune up my car..
whether or not i do a good job remains to be seen..

Everyone take a deep breath.......Now exhale.

It's just the way it is at this point in time. Photogs make more and video makes less.

Peter, which is easier for a new person to operate, a full size beta, or a mini dv handycam from your local electronics store? The beta requires training by a professional who's used it before, but the camcorder can be picked up and worked with by anyone.

And yes, people starting out don't make as much as others. YOUR time is worth a lot, but a new persons time is more of an investment than a money maker. I'm not going to pay a new shooter a high rate just to keep the industry looking good, I'm going to pay what their worth. And new people are worth less than those who've been in the business longer. That's how it is in any profession and it makes sense.

No one wants a seasoned pro to take a pay cut, but give the new people an oppourtunity to make their mark in the industry.

Ben Lynn

The beta requires training by a professional who's used it before, but the camcorder can be picked up and worked with by anyone.

Okay, this is twice now you've pushed this idea. The first time I had a response all set to go and I decided not to add fuel to the fire.

But a second time? This I cannot let pass.

BullKRAPPE!

You show me the Rule of Thirds button on that camcorder.

Show me the Headroom button.

Show me the Storytelling button or the Rack Focus for Effect button.

Show me the Smooth Pan button.

Show me the Proper Exposure button.

No?

Maybe they're hidden away in a menu somewhere. Check the Users Manual and get back to me, okay?

why why why?

Why is it so difficult to see how devaluing the industry is NOT A GOOD THING?

I honestly do not understand the process behind that kind of thinking.

People are ignorant. They don't know what goes into a professionally produced video. They do not understand the costs, the time, the talent. They see "wedding video" and think one's as good as the next.

When the bar is so low, it hurts EVERYone...

Why is it so difficult to see how devaluing the industry is NOT A GOOD THING?

I honestly do not understand the process behind that kind of thinking.

People are ignorant. They don't know what goes into a professionally produced video. They do not understand the costs, the time, the talent. They see "wedding video" and think one's as good as the next.


I feel the pain of most of these quotes, but just understand for your own health, there is NOTHING you can do about the situation. All you can do is create the best product possible, and market yourself and your work.

And David - you make some good points, but also some bad ones, which (mainly because of your attitude and style) make you look bad...

You say "I don't agree. What the next guy is doing is irrelevant." This is an abusrd statement in ANY business, and certainly this one. You need to keep in mind many of your points, but also look at the field and then make an informed decision.

"I feel the pain of most of these quotes, but just understand for your own health, there is NOTHING you can do about the situation. "

wanna bet??

look at my model of taking on trainees.. by the time im finsihed with them, their running their own business's with the appropriate skills and experience required to be successful..
In training, not only are they learning how to shoot, but how to edit.. how to manage, how to deal with a client, how to deliver to a client, how to sell to a client and most importantly, how to chat up the hot lil bridesmaid....
;)

So in effect, once theyre established, they come back to me for system support, edit suport etc etc and i make afew freinds who i can rely on.. on top of that, by the time they branch out, they have enough experience to charge whats relevant so as to NOT devalue to the product..

now i understand that being cheap helps a newbie.. but why cant a newbie do what my newbies do and work for someone for about 6 months, make some cash, learn some techniques, get a folio and THEN go out and do it for themselves.. and NOT have to undercut anyone else...

At least theyre not offering crap on the outset.. coz they HAVE the skill... They have the experience.. like some customers say... any Schmo can film a wedding.. but just coz they can does it mean they should???

Why is it so difficult to see how devaluing the industry is NOT A GOOD THING?

I honestly do not understand the process behind that kind of thinking.

People are ignorant. They don't know what goes into a professionally produced video. They do not understand the costs, the time, the talent. They see "wedding video" and think one's as good as the next.

When the bar is so low, it hurts EVERYone...

While you have very valid points, how you've presented them and passed "your" opinions off as "what must be done" is where I take issue. No one wants a de-valued industry; however we must allow that each person values things differently (Viva Le USA). That being said, people also have very different approaches and measure successes in different ways. You must allow that while making your house payment is your measurement, buying that new camera or building your skill set may be enough for others. Why is this the case?
I use the term Cottage Industry, as it sums up where we are at with this. I know we have WEVA yet ask your clients honestly, how many even know what that is. What unites us other than this board? Yes we all shoot, but the different skill levels and knowledge bases and standards that we use keep us from really educating the public at large. Where is our unity? How do we change public opinion of what we do? Why are we different from real production work? Why is it when I go to Videographer get togethers, when it is revealed I do weddings I get that Ooooh so sorry look? It’s because we are not united, no real entity that backs what we do, and it’s also because we spend too much time arguing amongst ourselves. There is allot of energy on this topic, where is our energy to really enact change. Being passionate is fine, yet are we putting this passion into the right battles?

It’s because we are not united, no real entity that backs what we do, and it’s also because we spend too much time arguing amongst ourselves. There is allot of energy on this topic, where is our energy to really enact change. Being passionate is fine, yet are we putting this passion into the right battles?

Now this point I will agree with. The sad part is that nowhere in the world in there a 'regulating body'!. Yes, WEVA does exist, but how many users out there really tout that is being an 'industry controlling body'. Don't get me wrong, I do not devalue or knock WEVA, without them, I'm sure the world of wedding videography would be much worse off than it is.

Its just sad that its centered mainly in the USA. Our local organisations in SA (and I'm sure elsewhere in the world) are more of a "lets see what this guy is doing" scenario than sharing information. And like Devin has said, you get the skew eye when people know you do weddings. I do the dang lot, anything that brings money to the table - thats what I am prepared to do to keep my business afloat.

I've been to two of the 'local videography' meetings and must honestly say its a waste of time. It was started by someone very passionate but without help, he's gotten no further than the second lamp post down the street. Its one reason why HE says, "is it all worth it". I cannot speak for WEVA as i am unlikely to be at their meeting being about a few thousand miles away.

Cheers

"Where is our unity? "
This si what ive been saying.. everyone is slitting each others throats to make a buck that there IS NO UNITY...

How do we change public opinion of what we do?
((Ive answered this one.. education.. very simple.. many focus on the sale and not the actual job at hand.. before i give them a $$ figure, i makes sure they understand the work, and the contracts..

the more producers try to keep secrets from the public, the more concern the wedding clients have. The less we educate the client, the more questions are raised.
Be open and theryes no problem, but keep a secret, and theyll want to throttle you. Hell, go to my website and youll see how much info i give poeple.. this is what they NEED.. theres only about 6 lines of actual sales pitch lines across the whole site, but the info i provide is like 20thousand words... the site is not for sales, its for information. The information then sells the product without me having to use dodgy sales tactics...

they may not want to know what i do and how i do it, but if theyre oblivious to it, thats their problem. I tell them why i charge what i do.
At least my clients can breathe easy knowing about what i do and how i do it.. and the fact that its publicly available, theres no excuses for complacency.

change the sales techniques, educate the clients as to the true depth of what we do, and youll notice the attitude to video will change..
When people are tyrekicking, I ask these potential clients, how much tv do you watch.. how many movies do you enjoy? do you like to just sit back and chill out of a night with a nice glass of a wine and a movie? Think about it.. What we offer as porfessionals is a product which is a part of the BIGGEST industry in the friggin world. what is it really worth when almost every human on this planet watches TV... ))


Why are we different from real production work?
((Were not.. but it depends on your definition of "REAL"... to me, someone who gives me a dollar to film something is "real". To work out how to use a new piece of software is "real" production work.
The difference however has been stated in another post..
Cost.. yes initial outlay may not be as expensive as a broadcast studio, but were all capturing tape, were all cutting, were all delivering.. irrespective of the material, were all doing the same thing.. it might be on a differnt level to other people.. but in the end, were all creating something which is enjoyable to watch... ))

Why is it when I go to Videographer get togethers, when it is revealed I do weddings I get that Ooooh so sorry look?
((Coz weddings can sometimes suck when you have to deal with Bridezilla.. Also corporate work pays about 4 times as much for much less work.. on average id make 3 times what i make on a wedding.. irrespective of the duration. ))

It’s because we are not united, no real entity that backs what we do, and it’s also because we spend too much time arguing amongst ourselves.
((I wouldnt call it arguing.. in the market place, if u argue u look like a dick.. but to the client many business like to badmouth other business' as opposed to trying to sell their wares... ))

There is allot of energy on this topic, where is our energy to really enact change. Being passionate is fine, yet are we putting this passion into the right battles?"

((I agree... but it also needs to be put out in the open...))

As for Johns, comments, i agree 100% with everything he has written

(mainly because of your attitude and style)

Yeah I keep forgetting no one wants the elephant in the room pointed out to them.

...how you've presented them and passed "your" opinions off as "what must be done" is where I take issue...

Why?

Because the alternative has been such a resounding success?

Listen, I call 'em like I see 'em. Sometimes the most difficult truth is the truth in the mirror. I argued the same arguments... Just ask Jenny Lehman. I learned. I realized.

So if that makes me zealous, so be it.

...I use the term Cottage Industry, as it sums up where we are at with this. I know we have WEVA yet ask your clients honestly, how many even know what that is...


Exactly! This is what I mean when I said this industry was built bass-ackwards. It wasn't a cottage industry. It was a professional industry. It's actually de-evolved over the years.

And the excuses of competing on price is both cause and effect.

WEVA, for all that it is, is a victim of it's own success. But, IMO, they have never really promoted professional wedding videography to the customer like a national (international?) association could do.

see this is where my point is missunderstood .. to a certain extent...... Its not JUST about competing with a newbie.... as a whole, its about CREATING a market and manipulating it in a way to increase its true value for what its really worth..

The question is, are you more concerned about how much people charge for wedding videos, or about the quality they're offering and how that reflects on the industry as a whole? Either way, my point is that there's probably nothing any of us can do to stop the current trends in wedding videography services and pricing, so you may as well learn to accept that. If you think customers need to be advised that there is a difference between an inexpensive video and an expensive one, go ahead and tell them that. If you think fledgling videographers need to be educated on how to make better videos and price their services accordingly, then invite them to join your local videographers association. But no matter how many videographers get trained to do things right and charge a fair fee, there are going be more new ones coming in behind them because it's increasingly easy to get started in this business. That's a fact of life we can't change now, so don't waste your energy trying.

The good news here is that if there are more videographers offering wedding videos at a wider range of prices, that means more people will be able to afford a wedding video and there will be more of us available to meet the demand. The one legitimate concern here is not to have the industry tarnished by a flood of poorly done videos, but how exactly would you propose to minimize that risk?

Yeah I keep forgetting no one wants the elephant in the room pointed out to them.

So smug...

Most of what you point out is obvious, but you think you're revolutionary (if you want the truth). Like I said, can't do much about it, but maybe you've found a way.

And interesting that you did address the point about your bad information...

not smug... saddened.

I don't see other industries so content with mediocrity.

Bad information?

The only bad information is that which promotes the status quo... That keeps this industry in the mud.

And don't pretend that you have me "figured out"... If what I say is so obvious, then why is there even any discussion?

Oh yeah... Must be repeat season on TV. Not enuff drama.

Get it or don't...

I'm done with this topic.

David: you seem to be convinced that there could be some course of action which would help keep videography a more tightly organized profession with higher average prices, but that defies any logical assessment of the situation. What's happening is totally normal for an industry which starts out with high investment costs and then gradually becomes easier and more affordable for people to enter into. The best thing any of us can do is keep helping each other learn how to be more professional, and try to reach out to the newcomers who are just starting their learning process. Grumbling about inevitable trends won't change anything.

I'm done with this topic.
You had better believe it, you're done with this topic. Please understand that when you post within the DV Info Net community, you do so only by the good graces of our community policies. Chiefly among them is the basic behavioral guideline of well-mannered conduct, civility, and mutual respect. This means absolutely *no* flaming and *no* confrontational posturing. I don't care how good your advice is. The key to successful continued participation here is a combination of good advice and good manners. It's not an either-or proposition. Take the best advice giver out there; this community will abruptly part ways with that person if that person refuses to concede to the most basic plea for friendly, well mannered discourse. "Good advice givers" are actually relatively easy to find. It's the polite ones that we like to retain here at DV Info Net.

*Please* keep that concept fixed firmly in mind when posting here. I would hate to have to close this thread. Thanks in advance,

Brides are not dumb.

If you have a quality product you can charge for it. We started at $1600 for a standard wedding package and now get $2000. We won't get hired by the deal hunters, they go for the $500 dude. Fine, I don't want that work anyway. I want to work for people that appreciate quality and know the difference.

My point? Know your target. If you want to capture the budget crowd, charge $500. If you want to go after the higher end crowd, charge accordingly but make sure you have a product that backs it up. People WILL pay more if they value quality. Just not all people. Choose your clients.

Mike

Dear all,
Let me take an outsider point of view to this pricing issue. To me wedding videography is a very new industry, comparing with engineering, medical, law... I am sure that all these old industries faced the same "new kids lower the price (and standard, may be)" before they were crowned "professional". What the old guys in these industries did to solve the problem was to set up standards and so-called professional groups to protect their own interests (and may be the consumers' interests).

I can see that the wedding video industry is also trying to establish such standards and "professional" groups (like the WEVA). However, I believe that ultimately it would be up to the general public to decide whether to respect these new standards/groups/reputation. The professionalism concept works very well in engineering, medical, etc as people think that standard is IMPORTANT, it's about life & death. However, for industries like culinary, photography and may be wedding videography, I think the consumers consider the pricing according to the "artist's" work and services, much more than on the "artist's" experience or which organisation he/she belongs to.

So, I would say don't worry about how the new kids price their services. Videographers should worry about how to educate the consumers. If the consumers are "dumb", do not value the high standard services delivered by the experienced videographers and they give jobs to the new kids, then that's life, that's free market economy.

All this BS I said is nothing new. I am a professional engineer and have been involved in the local operation of an international professional engineering institution. I would hate to see the wedding videography industry following the same old professionalism route. Professionalism often means protectionism. In the engineering industry, they keep raising the bar for new comers in a way to protect the benefits of those already in the circle. Of course, I am new to the videography industry and speaking as an outsider (consumer).

I need to add this last line. Reading the posts in this forum is already a very good way to raise the standard of all people in this industry.

"So, I would say don't worry about how the new kids price their services. Videographers should worry about how to educate the consumers. If the consumers are "dumb", do not value the high standard services delivered by the experienced videographers and they give jobs to the new kids, then that's life, that's free market economy."

THANK YOU..

now THAT makes sense.. Education is the key, but i see how standards, or lack of are a key element here... ill get to that in a minute..
Now most brides will love their wedding presentation.. even if WE see it as being crappy.. the reason they love it is not for its technical and artistic content, but the fact that its THEIRS

We might look at afew shots and think them to be unacceptable (In teh past, before i shot for myself, i used to edit.. which I had done on numerous occasions and have spent copious amounts of time in the edit fixing) but in the end, even though i hated it and would never use that material as a demo... but the guys i edtied for DID... so what i think is crap, other might think is incredible.. then again im a picky prick..
With regard to standards, there ARE standards for DVD and Audio delivery which can be taken onboard your business if that suits you. I carry licensed for a variety of different process and delivery options.
BUT when i see my clients, i SHOW THEM the documents to verify that our goods meet and exceed commercial DVD Standards... as opposed to a "bridal service" standard which was put together by a clever guy wanting to make some money who offers fancy logos for business to bolt onto their websites..
Associations mean nothing.. from what i have seen, they have done NOTHING to increase traffic or improve the public outlook on the Industry in general.
Yes, strong words, but why are we still struggling while the photographer works half a day and makes twice as much $$.. thats my point..

Also software manufacturers are marketing video as being easy to edit.. yes it IS technically easy to edit, but how easy is it to be artist? How easy is it to run a business? How easy is it to compete with th eopposition, how easy is it to make sales pitch, how easy is it to adapt to a different situation and client each day, how easy is it to pay the bills...
If you see your work as a form of art, as a TRUE business and not a hobby, then maybe the industry itself would change the colour of light we are under.. i cant say, "Im a hobbyist Dr so yes, i can cure you, but i only do it on weekends, so you need to get back to me then... " life and death.. ok, well how important are peoples memories? What if youre a hobbyist and your out on a shoot, youve charged the couple 500 bux for your pocket money but your camera shits itself on the day of shooting? What do you do? Its a hobby, so would yo be carryin a back up camera? Hell i know professional outfits that dont even use backups... and thats jsut my point.

These half hearted efforts damage the industry as in worst case scenarios, if something goes wrong, your f*cked. Not only that, but the experience will be heard on every bridal forum and negative comments will be made which, even though bare no weight on all of us, it will still damage your money making hobby and the industry as a whole.

If you want standards, there are options open to you for that. If you want to stand out by being one of the few who are standardised on a commercial level, that option is there also.
Dolby, DTS and the DVDForum all offer levels of standards which you can apply for.
Dont tell me there are no standards, there ARE. These are TRUE standards, and every DVD on the shelf must meet them.
These TRUE standards, are not some half cocked idea from a bunch of guys sitting around sharing a beer and coming up with an idea to make afew extra bux....
Like i said, associations are a waste of time, some even only market the bride (like the ones here in Aus ABS and ABIA <ABIA being the awards association, which is a joke considering i can buy voting forms for myself and get my friends to vote for me.. lol), and yes, some may assist with sales, but in the end, it really carries no weight on the product's workmanship considering these associations will take on anyone with afew bux to spare...

Go and get standardised and then youll see the difference in workmanship.. over half the members of these associations wouldnt even make it past the review stage... and the other quarter would be too scared to be scrutinised... youll see business fold and go under as they cant meet the mark, and youll see backyard dodginess come to the fore as the industry goes underground... in the end though, if every registered video production company required standardisation, then there wouldnt as much competition, prices would reflect the workmanship, therd be no ammunition for one company to badmouth another, and in the end, the final producs will be worthy of watching

is that a good thing or a bad thing? you tell me..

I just finished my third wedding of which I got $2200. I paid my assistant $200 and pocketed most of the rest. It is not impossible to get 2k-5k when you are starting out. I am definitely a newbie but from past experiences understand what it takes to market myself. I live eat and breath video techniques and have watched most of the demos listed on this forum 20 times. I don't market myself as a newbie. I market myself as energetic, creative, personable, fresh... If anyone wants to learn how not to go through the typical price issues associated with starting, read "Spin Selling" . I don't ever read this sort of propaganda but this book will change the way you value and market yourself and product. I intend to be the highest priced company in my area within the year.

Peter,

Please rant on. I am new and agree with your rational and hope I am helping veterans like you to continue to stay profitable.

Peace,

Dan