I think I will rather sell my 330 and buy a Sony PMW 350 and shoot the shallow depth of field scenes with some tele and iris wide open.
It's worth thinking of exactly what the difference will be. The AF101 sensor will be very close to 4x the area of the 2/3" sensor of the PMW350. That will give it a 2 stop difference in terms of depth of field - you'll have to have the PMW350 opened up 2 stops relative to the AF101 for the same depth of field.

But - even the stock lens with the PMW350 is f1.9 (and on a 16x motorised zoom). Hence, for a any given angle of view, you'll need to get about f3.5 on the AF101 to match that, and at least f2.8 or more to substantially better it. That's certainly possible with some primes - but any sort of affordable zoom for that size of sensor is likely to be more like f4-5.6, and not have the benefits of motor zoom etc as well.

So if you go for the AF101, are you prepared to get a set of good fast primes? And accept a lot of lens changing on set? It's also worth pointing out that frequent lens changing with a digital sensored camera carries a risk that didn't exist when doing the same with film. That's dirt - get something behind the lens with film and it may be gone as the film moves on, or at worst give a hair in the gate for a shot or two. Potentially, it's likely to be far more difficult to get rid of with a digital sensor.

Thanks for your comments David.

You are confirming me in what I have also figured out.
And on top of that have put some exact values on it.

Fist time I heard of the AF101, I thought.
“Hey here is an affordable film camera to go in, for film type of work, as my second, and on top of that I can use my Nikons”

The more information I get I can see this opportunity fading away, and that there is more business sense in getting a descend 2/3 camera instead.

On my initial thoughts I would have put my 24-70 and 70-200 f2.8 Nikon lenses in the front.
But as they will bee twice the focal length, it will leave me with no wide angle lens!!
Buying a set of primes is not an opportunity for me, and as you pointed out. It is a nightmare to change lenses all the time. Believe me, I have been there with DSLR.

As it looks from my point of view the PMW 350 looks like a winner as the multipurpose camera for my business.

Maybe the new Sony will fit someone who only goes the film way. But for me the solution will bee too expensive, considering the benefits I will get.

Anything less than 10-bit from the HD-SDI and HDMI ports is just stupid. Panny made this mistake. The usual justification is "10-bit from the HD-SDI would make the camera more expensive," yet no one says how much. Would it be $10,000, $1,000, or $20 more?

Another point worth considering when thinking about using a camera that will need frequent lens changes is the matter of back-focus. One might find that with all the changing, this might go adrift and will need appropriate adjusting...

i only hope sony releases information and estimate price before i buy an af100, cause if 7000cdn will be my af100, could be worth it to put the extra for a 35mm sensor.

Panasonic AG-AF100 Body: $4,999.00 at Vistek.ca (http://www.vistek.ca/store/ProVideoCamcorders/252898/panasonic-agaf100-micro-fourthirds-avchd-video-recorderbody-only.aspx)

...My predictions for this mysterious "affordable" Sony 35mm sensor camera :

- Price: $20,000+

- Will not ship in 2011

I honestly feel that Sony was a little freaked-out by the announcement of the Panasonic AF-100 and had to cook-up something fast as a response.

...My predictions for the Panasonic AF-100:

- It will ship in quantity in the 1st quarter of 2011 ( though initial units will start trickling in at the end of Dec 2010 )

- It will be like the introduction of the HVX200 camera, and sell like hot-cakes in 2011 ( effectively owning this new large-sensor prosumer market for all of 2011 )

- The AF-100 will be a lot better than many people expect

I think Sony will have a similar product to compete with the AF-100 from Panasonic. The community has known about the AF-100 since NAB and I would guess that industry people new about it long before that.

What would surprise me is if Sony did not have a model right around the corner given the NEX camera is already out there.

NAB this year will be quite interesting and I agree, the AF-100 will be a great tool. For me, I am waiting for a servo-driven model that can act more like a video camera if needed.

Hi Guy,

There are a lot of rumours going around right now particularly in the last couple of days about Sony's "new" products. I am not going to feed the rumour mill except to say that apparently Sony is going to have a public announcement later in November that will spell out more details about their "affordable" 35mm sensor camera and it is supposed to be less than 20 grand and THIS camera is suppose to be aimed at people in the Red market and it will have a PL mount. This is not their answer to the AF100/101. Info flying around beyond this is too far of an extrapolation from what Sony has already said about this 35mm sensored box and other cameras that they have not even mentioned in a public way.

I think it is safe to say the AF100/101 marketing has gone nuclear on the net. You sure have to hand it to Panasonic. They played the user input & viral marketing on this extremely well. I sure hope Sony is taking copious notes on this. Take a step off DVinfo and look around at the net buzz on the AF100. It is wild. A full blown juggernaut.

I think Sony will have a similar product to compete with the AF-100 from Panasonic. The community has known about the AF-100 since NAB and I would guess that industry people new about it long before that.

I agree, but I think Sony will be at least 6 months to 1 year behind Panasonic, mainly because Panasonic already had proven 4/3 sensor / lens technology and the AVCHD encoding engine from the HMC-150, so leveraging these in to a mid priced prosumer video camera was a great move by them.

What would surprise me is if Sony did not have a model right around the corner given the NEX camera is already out there.

Sony is terrified of harming their prosumer camera lines, which is why none of their consumer video cameras have something as simple as a 24P mode. ( Canon and Panasonic consumer cams have had 24P for a few years now )

I feel that Sony will sit on their hands, much like Canon prosumer video did for the past couple of years, because they are not willing to take this risk.

The NEX-VG10 is a "dead-duck" as far as market share goes. It's too expensive and awkward for consumers, with virtually no prosumer features for the professionals. ( I was surprised at how bad the moire is with this camera, and I don't understand why Sony didn't fix this )

NAB this year will be quite interesting and I agree, the AF-100 will be a great tool. For me, I am waiting for a servo-driven model that can act more like a video camera if needed.

The problem with "servo-driven models" will be the cost of the lenses. I expect a servo-driven prosumer lens that covers the 4/3 format to cost upwards of $3,000+ ( maybe upwards of $5,000+ ), which might be too expensive for this new large-sensor prosumer market.

Being able to buy a fast and sharp Panasonic 20mm f1.7 prime for under $400 is what I think the AF100 market is going to be about. I expect to see a lot of new fast primes in the 4/3 market in 2011-12, with pricing in the $500 - $2,000 range.

...My predictions for this mysterious "affordable" Sony 35mm sensor camera :

- Price: $20,000+

- Will not ship in 2011

I honestly feel that Sony was a little freaked-out by the announcement of the Panasonic AF-100 and had to cook-up something fast as a response.

...My predictions for the Panasonic AF-100:

- It will ship in quantity in the 1st quarter of 2011 ( though initial units will start trickling in at the end of Dec 2010 )

- It will be like the introduction of the HVX200 camera, and sell like hot-cakes in 2011 ( effectively owning this new large-sensor prosumer market for all of 2011 )

- The AF-100 will be a lot better than many people expect

Jan Crittenden, is that you?

I am not going to feed the rumour mill except to say that apparently Sony is going to have a public announcement later in November that will spell out more details about their "affordable" 35mm sensor camera and it is supposed to be less than 20 grand and THIS camera is suppose to be aimed at people in the Red market and it will have a PL mount.

I hope this holds true, as it will be interesting to see RED finally have some competition in their price range.

This is not their answer to the AF100/101

I agree, but so far Sony has done little to clear up this misconception. When Panasonic announced the AF-100 the day before NAB opened, it really seemed like just Sony threw together a large-sensor "affordable" mock-up to show that they were still in the game. The timing and the lack of details from Sony seemed very odd at the time.

I think it is safe to say the AF100/101 marketing has gone nuclear on the net.

...Which might be justifiable, as this is the first prosumer video camera to deliver a DSLR video image without all the DSLR problems at a $5K price tag, and that is a big deal to many shooters.

The AF-100 won't replace ENG cameras for ENG style work ( I'm keeping my HMC-150 ), but I definitely plan on buying one for my corporate and indy film-making work. ( I'm not an early adopter, so I'm going to wait until May before I take the plunge. I want to be certain all of the bugs have been shaken out. )

Jan Crittenden, is that you?

Ha! ...Yes I drank the Panasonic AVCHD Kool-Aid when I bought my first HMC-150 eighteen months ago, and I expect this new camera to be my favorite piece of gear for 2011.

I agree, but I think Sony will be at least 6 months to 1 year behind Panasonic, mainly because Panasonic already had proven 4/3 sensor / lens technology and the AVCHD encoding engine from the HMC-150, so leveraging these in to a mid priced prosumer video camera was a great move by them.
Hmmm. I think Sony has equally proven comparable technology in their consumer still cameras, and surely AVC-HD has been one of the most criticised elements of the AF101 design? Many people have said why couldn't they have AVC-Intra 100 or XDCAM 422 50Mbs?

If Sony do bring a similar product to market, I hope it will have at least 35Mbs XDCAM as the codec (ideally 50Mbs) - not AVC-HD.

Guy,

I fully back what you are saying about the AF100. In your position the AF100 makes complete sense for all the obvious reasons, not the least of which is the matching or close to matching colour space you will have between cameras since you already own a Panasonic cam.

My hunch is the "35mm" camera will be around 15 grand US, street price that is, and maybe lower particularly if they leave it as an XDCAM EX camera. They might opt to sell "the brick" without a sizable viewfinder below 10 grand, who knows. The competition right now is fierce with not only in units to be sold but also mindshare. Panasonic has such a compelling product that people could jump ship. Everything will depend, in my view, on how well Sony handles this in the next few months. Their first window to navigate is the next 4 to 6 weeks by stemming some of the tide shift that is going on with the AF100 and the second window will be post Christmas CES and then lead up to NAB.

If Sony doesn't pull themselves out of their corporate shell and engage in the guerilla style internet marketing that Panasonic has done they are in big trouble.

As a +20 year veteran in the advertising world, I am very impressed with Panasonic's prowess in generating user enthusiasm over this new product. Jan Crittenden is to be commended. Who BTW has been nothing but gracious in a competitive manner towards Sony. I have not seen one cheap shot come from Panasonic's bow towards Sony and I have been watching this unfold very carefully.

Like I said in a previous post, I hope Sony is taking copious notes on this as they are being seriously schooled on this right now.

The one thing I disagree with is the "throwing together" of the 35mm "behind the glass" camera for NAB. I would have thought that earlier and did in fact but it was explained to me the process that the big video camera manufacturers go through in making a camera and that camera, according to this process was at the mockup stage that Sony or Panasonic for that matter would have about 6 to 8 months before the production version of the camera is finalized. It is commnplace to have prototypes like this with port holes covered up with tape and so on.

If Sony is true on their word that this camera will be released in EARLY 2011 then we should seen a near finished prototype at this late November press meeting that has been rumoured about recently.

Hmmm. I think Sony has equally proven comparable technology in their consumer still cameras, and surely AVC-HD has been one of the most criticised elements of the AF101 design?

Many people have seen lots of bad AVCHD and assume that all implementations of AVCHD are the same, which is completely false. This is why I alway ask if people have worked with native AVCHD files shot with the Panasonic HMC-150, which from my experience is probably the best example of good AVCHD encoding.

Many people have said why couldn't they have AVC-Intra 100 or XDCAM 422 50Mbs?

...And Panasonic ( or at least their reps ) have explained why:

AVC-Intra 100 : Too expensive for the $5K price point, but you can use the Panasonic AG-HPG20 ( or another high bit-rate recorder ) to record AVC-Intra 100 from the 4:2:2 uncompressed HD-SDI output. I expect to see some enterprising company create a "bolt-on" high bit-rate recorder for the AF-100. ( the side handle comes off leaving 3 mounting bolts, so why not add a bolt-on recorder )

If Sony do bring a similar product to market, I hope it will have at least 35Mbs XDCAM as the codec (ideally 50Mbs) - not AVC-HD.

If you've checked Barry Green's comparison between 21 Mbit Panasonic AVCHD and 35-Mbit Sony XDCAM-EX, you can see that AVCHD holds up better than XDCAM-EX, even when XDCAM-EX has a big bandwidth advantage :

XDCAM-EX vs. AVCCAM (http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/article.php/25)

Crews.tv posted a great article comparing video shot with the AF-100 preproduction camera that was simutaneously recorded as both AVCHD 24 Mbit and AVC-Intra 100 Mbit, and even posted full resolution uncompressed screen grabs to illustrate that visually AVCHD 24 Mbit comes very close to looking like AVC-Intra 100 Mbit. ( the Crews.Tv guys claimed that nobody could pick out which was which when looking at the footage at their editing station )

Comparing the uncompressed images, you can see for yourself how good the AVCHD CODEC is for low-motion video. I expect to see a much bigger difference once high-motion images are introduced, but for regular video work AVCHD is great.

Crews.Tv Comparison of AVCHD and AVC-Intra (http://crews.tv/blog/2010/10/22/af100-images-pushed-to-the-limit/)

The Panasonic implementation of the AVCHD CODEC is one reason why I think the AF-100 camera is going to surprise many people once they get to see native footage shot with the camera. ( it won't be crappy consumer AVCHD any more )

In your position the AF100 makes complete sense for all the obvious reasons, not the least of which is the matching or close to matching colour space you will have between cameras since you already own a Panasonic cam.

I've always like the Panasonic color "mojo" which looks more like film to me than their competitors cameras. ( I come from a 10+ year advertising photography background, so color is a big deal to me )

My hunch is the "35mm" camera will be around 15 grand US, street price that is, and maybe lower particularly if they leave it as an XDCAM EX camera. They might opt to sell "the brick" without a sizable viewfinder below 10 grand, who knows.

This would be a very big problem for RED unless they are prepared to be price competitive with Sony.

The competition right now is fierce with not only in units to be sold but also mindshare. Panasonic has such a compelling product that people could jump ship. Everything will depend, in my view, on how well Sony handles this in the next few months. Their first window to navigate is the next 4 to 6 weeks by stemming some of the tide shift that is going on with the AF100 and the second window will be post Christmas CES and then lead up to NAB.

If Sony doesn't pull themselves out of their corporate shell and engage in the guerilla style internet marketing that Panasonic has done they are in big trouble.

Sony ( and Canon ) is such a conservative company, I have big doubts that the upper management is ready to adapt to a new internet savvy marketing model.

Jan Crittenden is to be commended. Who BTW has been nothing but gracious in a competitive manner towards Sony. I have not seen one cheap shot come from Panasonic's bow towards Sony and I have been watching this unfold very carefully.

Jan believes in her own product, and has never slagged any competitor. She almost seems to epitomize the "slow and steady wins the race" no matter what form of craziness is running loose on the web.

The one thing I disagree with is the "throwing together" of the 35mm "behind the glass" camera for NAB. I would have thought that earlier and did in fact but it was explained to me the process that the big video camera manufacturers go through in making a camera and that camera, according to this process was at the mockup stage that Sony or Panasonic for that matter would have about 6 to 8 months before the production version of the camera is finalized. It is commnplace to have prototypes like this with port holes covered up with tape and so on.

It just seemed like such an odd coincidence that this vague Sony camera prototype just happened to show up mid way through NAB. If this was not the case, then I would have expected Sony to clearly explain what they plan on doing with this camera, the way Panasonic did at NAB. It always seemed like the Sony reps were making it up as they went along, with no clear idea of what this new camera was supposed to be or what market they were targeting with it. Just the fact that the price is still so vague today, seems very bizarre to me.

If Sony is true on their word that this camera will be released in EARLY 2011 then we should seen a near finished prototype at this late November press meeting that has been rumoured about recently.

Sony should clear up the rumors and plainly state what this camera will do, who this camera is for, and what it will cost. This is the same type of baloney that Canon dishes out, that does nothing to build confidence or hype in their new product. ( they should take a page from Panasonic and make their stand )

Agree with everything Guy including the clumsiness of Sony's press conference at NAB on this upcoming camera.

Imagine being in a tightly controlled Corporate environment where you can be fired on a moment's notice for not being "on message" and Sony execs find out at NAB that they are being trounced by their primary competitor at the most prestigious tradeshow of it's kind in the World. They have to do something but their corporate culture and fear of getting off message is preventing them from coming out swinging. I think that is close to what happened.

This time the landscape is different. It isn't a matter of incrementally raising the bar and making sure they don't cannibalize their higher end stuff. Things have got so mixed up with their paradigm of incrementally releasing new features with the way Panasonic has delivered so many goods on this new camera.

What hasn't really settled in here or with the general Sony camera user is that the version of the AVC codec and bitrate that Panasonic is using yields as good and in some instances a better result that XDCAM even with heavy movement in the image. It's all in the I,B and P frame cadence, as you know, but knowledge of this isn't widespread yet. Yet. BTW I am a Sony user.

What hasn't really settled in here or with the general Sony camera user is that the version of the AVC codec and bitrate that Panasonic is using yields as good and in some instances a better result that XDCAM even with heavy movement in the image. It's all in the I,B and P frame cadence, as you know, but knowledge of this isn't widespread yet. Yet. BTW I am a Sony user.

I generally like Sony products and admire what Sony created with both the PD-150 and EX-1 cameras when they were first introduced. ( both are fantastic cameras for the respective times )

...What got me to switch over to Panasonic was the DVX-100, which while limited by the DV25 format, still produced such beautiful color when properly tweaked. The documentary "Iraq in Fragments" winning "Best Cinematography" at Sundance 2006 is a testament to the DVX-100 camera and the color it records.

Upgrading to the HMC-150 and working with the AVCHD files it creates, made me realize that AVCHD is a damn good CODEC when properly implemented, but few people have seen this type of high quality AVCHD footage, so this CODEC gets slagged all the time.

This is why I alway ask if people have worked with native AVCHD files shot with the Panasonic HMC-150, which from my experience is probably the best example of good AVCHD encoding.
Yes, my experiences are with HMC151 files, and I was somewhat disappointed with the results, at least in 1080 mode. It seems quite good for motion - but gives noticeable static artifacting around sharp edges, at least on a full 1080 plasma. The artifact patterning seems to twinkle at the GOP rate (about twice per second) which makes it pretty clear that it is a codec issue. Maybe it's less obvious on a camera that's not quite as noisy as the HMC151?
...And Panasonic ( or at least their reps ) have explained why:

AVC-Intra 100 : Too expensive for the $5K price point,
I remain unconvinced by the explanation. Canon have put a fully approved broadacast codec into their far cheaper XF100, and still using cheap memory - why can't Panasonic do it? AVC-Intra 100 may have too high a bit rate for SDHC - but be fine for SDXC. An AVC-Intra coder chip shouldn't cost any more than AVC-HD, so the only penalty should be the enforced use of SDXC.
If you've checked Barry Green's comparison between 21 Mbit Panasonic AVCHD and 35-Mbit Sony XDCAM-EX, you can see that AVCHD holds up better than XDCAM-EX, even when XDCAM-EX has a big bandwidth advantage :
IIRC, Barrys results were comparing motion handling, which is only one aspect of the "goodness" of a codec. I don't believe he ever compared them with areas of high levels of static detail. Based on what I've seen with HMC151 files, I suspect that would have lead to different conclusions about that aspect.
Crews.tv posted a great article comparing video shot with the AF-100 preproduction camera that was simutaneously recorded as both AVCHD 24 Mbit and AVC-Intra 100 Mbit, and even posted full resolution uncompressed screen grabs to illustrate that visually AVCHD 24 Mbit comes very close to looking like AVC-Intra 100 Mbit. ( the Crews.Tv guys claimed that nobody could pick out which was which when looking at the footage at their editing station )

Comparing the uncompressed images, ............
There is a huge problem with that article, which I've already commented on in the thread about it. Namely that you are not comparing the AVC-HD footage with uncompressed - you're comparing it with AVC-Intra 100. As said before: "Both AVC-Intra and AVC-HD are (unsurprisingly!) based on AVC - and it is highly likely that for STILL images they will therefore each take a similar approach to how they compress. In other words, slight differences between them only tell you how they differ - not how good OVERALL either of them is.The difference map approach is far more revealing when the tested codec is being compared directly with uncompressed.

I could just be dreaming up a non-issue here but feel it's worth discussing... it seems an odd decision for Sony to have designed a body with a native PL-mount (as seems to be suggested on the CVP product page).

(IIRC) PL has a flange distance of 52mm while Nikon and Canon have 46.5mm and 44mm respectively. This means all those stills lenses will be forced to function like macros and all lens distance markings will be thrown way-off, not forgetting the inability to focus at infinity! Don't know about the rest of you but I'm in no position to even consider replacing my crate-load of Nikons with PL equivalents!

I really hope the native mount turns out to be something much shorter (maybe like the EX3 at around 28.9mm, or even E-mount at 18mm) so that there is far more choice for lens(+adapter) options - seems a no-brainer to me, just hope Sony engineers have thought the same way. Alternatively, perhaps Sony has another model in their pocket that will sit somewhere between this and the VG10. Hmmm... so many questions!

Sony need to clarify these basic details soon, or at least make some sort of pre-announcement ahead of the late-November press event. The internet rumor-mill left un-checked can quickly damage perceptions if there is too much fog hanging around new products. Sony should recognize that there is a big difference between "creating a buzz" to feed the followers and "creating a fuzz" that feeds the doubters. I'd say that we're still very firmly in the "fuzz" phase!

Yes, my experiences are with HMC151 files, and I was somewhat disappointed with the results, at least in 1080 mode.

I've not experienced the artifacting that you are describing. Some people are disappointed by the resolving power of the HMC-150 imagers which are not full 1080P, but rather something closer to 720P. ( Barry Green posted about this, if I remember correctly it's something like 1440 x 810 pixels ) I knew that it wasn't a full-raster camera when I bought it, so this did not bother me.

I remain unconvinced by the explanation. Canon have put a fully approved broadacast codec into their far cheaper XF100, and still using cheap memory - why can't Panasonic do it?

The Canon camera you are referring to is NOT a large sensor camera, and it is NOT a camera with an interchangeable lens mount, thus you are comparing apples and oranges. Completely different cameras.

Currently there is no other prosumer large sensor video camera, and I expect the AF-100 will keep this market to itself for the next 6-12 months.

IIRC, Barrys results were comparing motion handling, which is only one aspect of the "goodness" of a codec. I don't believe he ever compared them with areas of high levels of static detail. Based on what I've seen with HMC151 files, I suspect that would have lead to different conclusions about that aspect.

If you had actually taken the time to properly read Barry's article you would realize that Barry stated that the AVCHD and XDCAM-EX CODECs performed the same for low-motion subjects, but that the AVCHD CODEC was a "significantly superior" when the more difficult high motion subjects were filmed. Here's a quote from the article:

"So -- conclusions? Easy -- AVCCAM's 21mbps PH mode is a clearly superior codec over XDCAM EX. No question, no argument, no doubt. While XDCAM kept up with AVCCAM in almost all the testing, it took nearly 70% more space to do it. And then there were the codec-stress times when AVCCAM was just significantly superior. Any way you slice it, the recorded image of the AVCCAM was as good or better"

There is a huge problem with that article, which I've already commented on in the thread about it. Namely that you are not comparing the AVC-HD footage with uncompressed - you're comparing it with AVC-Intra 100

This issue is not about how good the CODEC is compared to uncompressed raw footage, the issue is about Panasonic's choice of using the AVCHD CODEC when some people think that other CODECs might have been a better choice. Which is why I posted the link to Barry Green's article that demonstrated that the Panasonic 21 Mb implementation of the AVCHD CODEC is "significantly superior" to Sony's 35 Mb XDCAM EX CODEC. Lots of people like the Sony XDCAM EX CODEC, so they should love an even better quality Panasonic AVCHD CODEC.

I would be curious to see a direct comparison between the Canon 50 Mbit 4:2:2 CODEC and the Panasonic AVCHD CODEC, as I have a feeling that the AVCHD wouldn't be that bad. ( 4:2:2 color space will always beat out 4:2:0, but the actual image might be comparable )

Some people are disappointed by the resolving power of the HMC-150 imagers which are not full 1080P, but rather something closer to 720P. ( Barry Green posted about this, if I remember correctly it's something like 1440 x 810 pixels )
The theory is well defined on this, and mathematically very similar to Bayer theory. Pixel shift will give a luminance resolution improvement of up to 1.5X on the native sensor OVERALL. When H&V pixel shift are used together (as in the 150) that means you get a factor of sq rt 1.5 overall - about 1.2x on each axis. So expect 1.2x(960x540), or about 1150x650.

This matches well with what is observed in practice - no observable resolution change when switching between 720 and 1080 recording modes.

1440x810 is what can be expected from a 1 megapixel sensor in the arrangement used in cameras like the Z7, the layout arranged to equalise res in H and V axes.
The Canon camera you are referring to is NOT a large sensor camera, and it is NOT a camera with an interchangeable lens mount, thus you are comparing apples and oranges. Completely different cameras.
No - the Canon is not a large sensor camera, and I never said it was. I only said that Canon have proved that it is possible to get a fully broadcast approved codec into a camera at a pretty cheap price. No mention of sensor. Putting the same or comparable codec into the AF101 in lieu of AVC-HD shouldn't add much to the price in technical terms. Marketing's a different matter.

I suspect the confusion becomes because to Panasonic "fully broadcast approved" now means AVC-Intra 100, and at the time the camera was under development that meant P2 to handle the data rate. Nowadays, SDXC can handle 100Mbs comfortably.

The only other thing I'll say on codecs is that the EBU did highly extensive testing on acquisition codecs not long ago at a very scientific level. They gave XDCAM 422 50Mbs and AVC-Intra 100 full approval. Those two codecs are fully approved - AVC-HD isn't.

I

Currently there is no other prosumer large sensor video camera, and I expect the AF-100 will keep this market to itself for the next 6-12 months.


Well, except for the Sony NEX VG-10 that is. It is not nearly as professional as the AF 100 is cracked
out to be, but I WOULD call it a 'prosumer large sensor video camera' but that's just my opinion.

And as far as opinions go, I have yet to see the CAMERA that shoots AVCCAM that looks nearly
as good as the video from the EX-1 or 3. Again, just my opinion, and also, it MUST be noted, that
this is probably because of the CAMERAS that shoot in the AVCCAM's format and NOT the codec
itself. My suspicion is, that the EX cameras produce such nice images because of the larger chips
and their non pixel shifting nature, as well as the very nice lens on those cameras. I would guess,
that a camera that did the same and shot into AVCCAM would also look very good......and I
expect the AF-100 to produce imagery on par with the EX series of cameras with the added benefit
of shallow depth of field. However, I have decided to wait for real world footage, as I don't like being
one of the pioneers on the 'bleeding edge'.

The HMC150 is really not the best example to determine the codec quality. In good lighting, the HMC40 is much more detailed.

Well, except for the Sony NEX VG-10 that is. It is not nearly as professional as the AF 100 is cracked out to be, but I WOULD call it a 'prosumer large sensor video camera' but that's just my opinion.

I was very keen when I first heard about the NEX VG-10, but then I was expecting it to have the same features as the top of the line Canon or Panasonic consumer cameras. When more details came out, I was disappointed that Sony was still building crippled high-end consumer cams. I honestly don't see a market for this camera as I think it's too awkward for amateurs to shoot with, and it lacks most of the features that prosumer shooters want.

And as far as opinions go, I have yet to see the CAMERA that shoots AVCCAM that looks nearly as good as the video from the EX-1 or 3.

I agree completely. It has nothing to do with the AVCHD CODEC and everything to do the rest of the camera. I think the AF-100 is going to be the first AVCCAM camera from Panasonic that will seriously challenge the Sony EX-1 / 3 cameras for non-ENG work. ( the same goes for Canon's new XF 3xx line )

I expect the AF-100 to be a big seller once it's in the stores. I think it will sell so well that Sony and Canon will be forced to release their own equivalent cameras in order to stay competitive, and the prosumer market will be permanently changed for the better.

The HMC150 is really not the best example to determine the codec quality. In good lighting, the HMC40 is much more detailed.

...We are talking encoding quality, not how detailed the image is. Yes the HMC-40 has full raster 1/4 inch chips and shoots more detailed images in good light than the HMC-150 does.

I was very keen when I first heard about the NEX VG-10, but then I was expecting it to have the same features as the top of the line Canon or Panasonic consumer cameras. When more details came out, I was disappointed that Sony was still building crippled high-end consumer cams. I honestly don't see a market for this camera as I think it's too awkward for amateurs to shoot with, and it lacks most of the features that prosumer shooters want.



I agree completely. It has nothing to do with the AVCHD CODEC and everything to do the rest of the camera. I think the AF-100 is going to be the first AVCCAM camera from Panasonic that will seriously challenge the Sony EX-1 / 3 cameras for non-ENG work. ( the same goes for Canon's new XF 3xx line )

I expect the AF-100 to be a big seller once it's in the stores. I think it will sell so well that Sony and Canon will be forced to release their own equivalent cameras in order to stay competitive, and the prosumer market will be permanently changed for the better.

Yeah, I agree, that's why I was calling the NEG VG-10 a 'prosumer' as opposed to professional
camera. However, maybe it's just a consumer camera.....I haven't done anything more
than look at some of the video it produces, haven't had my hands on one at all.

As for the AF-100, I sincerely HOPE it is a HUGE seller and forces Sony and Canon to release
something similar and the ensuing competition keeps them all producing better and better cameras.
That way, when I DO decide to buy one of them, probably next year sometime, I will get the
most for my money!

I still say using the HMC40 as an example is better than using the HMC150 as an example. The chips matches the EX1r more so than the HMC150 (It's mostly a size difference) and because of that, a codec test would be more accurate.

I was basically agreeing with some that the codec alone doesn't determine quality but at the same time, I was also saying that an HMC40 is better to go against the EX1 than an HMC150.

Well the press announcement date for the 35mm sensored Sony camera has been announced by a reputable film magazine. The date is Wednesday, November 17th. Less than 2 weeks away.

Sony 35mm Mystery Camera Film and Digital Times: Blog (http://www.fdtimes.com/news/?p=2914)

What else is under that shroud?

Just enough resolution to be true 1920x1080p and APS-C sized sensor please.

Eww... APS-C?

That's like asking for a 1970 Barracuda with a V-6.

(I kid... flame suit on and running.... ;)

Just posted a soon to happen news Q & A from Sony in the UK on their much anticipated 35mm sensored camera, now called the PMW-F3.

You can read the DVinfo post below and it will take you to Sony's related announcement and Facebook page where the Q & A will take place with Sony engineers etc at 10:00 am UTC Monday, November 9th, That's 2am for those in the Pacific time zone.

You want it. Fill your boots.

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/digital-video-industry-news/487125-sony-uk-announce-pmw-f3-10am-utc-facebook.html#post1585815

Thanks, Andrew. Very interesting info. But the links to the F3 aren't working right now.

True Glen, true. But there is still a decent read on the webpage itself. And there is the prospect of seeing this Sony chap baked to crisp on Facebook by the would be participants. Actually I don't think that is going to happen because only six people in the entire world know this is going to happen. Sony's gotta smarten up with their internet marketing. It really appears to be quite hamfisted.

...My predictions for this mysterious "affordable" Sony 35mm sensor camera :

- Price: $20,000+

- Will not ship in 2011

...It looks like one of my predictions has proven accurate ( the $20K+ price ), according to a new post by Philip Bloom:

Sony announces the PMW F3K! | Philip Bloom (http://philipbloom.net/2010/11/08/f3/)

It looks like Sony is going after RED ( not Panasonic ) with this new camera. Wow things are changing fast!

Sony : PMW-F3K (PMWF3K) : Product Overview : United Kingdom (http://www.sony.co.uk/biz/product/xdcamcamcorders/pmw-f3k/overview)

If it's listed it's going to be shipping in the reasonably near future.

Personally I'm surprised Sony is giving the entire under $10K market to Panasonic. Maybe they thinks it's a battle they can't win . . .
So they come out with a $20K+ camera using 35mbps MPEG2 4:2:0 Long GOP? Add cost of ConvergentDesigns or AJA attached recorder.

To me it looks like it should be an $8K camera. Does it really have any major serious advantages over the Panny AF1--?
Is this really a competitor to RED? It looks like the "stepped down" camera for those who want "Ease of Use" over RED but that's it.

I am NOT convinced by any of the specs that this camera is $15K better than Panny nor am I convinced this is a RED competitor.

Criag, I think you are hitting the nail on the head. After watching the AF-100 come to light and now seeing this new Sony camera I can not see the $10,000 price difference either.

When Canon puts out a $6,000 50mbps 4:2:2 camera it is a bit strange for Sony to stay with 35mbps 4:2:0 in a new $15,000 camera body that is basically an EX-1r with a large sensor.

As a non-cinema more video oriented shooter I like the idea of an EX-1 shallow DOF companion but not at this price. They have passed me up as a potential buyer.

Strange that Panasonic can find the way to offer basically the same style of camera for 1/3 the price.

I won't say too much other than, wait for the U.S. pricing. Once upon a time, (pre release EX-1) I was told
by a Sony rep that the EX-1 would be 'around 6 grand'. So I posted that on various internet forums
and was called 'crazy' because more expensive prices were being 'calculated' with exchange rates and
such. Until we actually find out the US 'street price' I am going to withhold judgement. Remember,
the 'official' MSRP of the EX-1 is $7790 or some such figure as well.....but you can get it from a
Sony dealer for the 'street price' of $6299 which is about $1500 less......

50/ 60p in 720p mode only. Just like my $800 Canon T2i. At least is can do 10bit 4:2:2 out of the SDi socket... but as mentioned, you'll need more equipment to make use of this mojo.

PL lens mount doesn't help the high pricing either,

For $6 K, it'd be a nice camera, but I don't think this will steal away any new potential DSLR buyers, AF100 buyers, or any RED buyers for $20K.

A strange product considering the current market.

The EX-3, which is interchangeable lens, might be a fair comparison. B&H has is for $8,320. Given the description of the new camera there is no feature or market justification for a price much above $10K. The prices people are claiming have to be WAY OFF or Sony has a DOA product IMHO.

OK here's word from what appears to be a reliable news source. If we all call up Sony at the same time and SCREAM into the phone maybe they'll get the message. Looks like I can justify buying a Canon D60 now unless the Panny camera grabs me.

"The F3 is scheduled to ship in February 2011 at $16,000 for the body only or at $23,000 for a kit that includes three Sony-branded T2.0 PL-mount prime lenses at 35mm, 50mm, and 85mm. Sony is formally introducing it with film-school-oriented launch events this month at USC in Los Angeles and next month at NYU in New York City."

So that would probably mean around $14K "street" for the body. We'll know when it pops up at B&H.

Studio daily says it's $16K body only, 23K with lens:
Sony's PMW-F3 Targets Indie Filmmakers | Studio Daily (http://www.studiodaily.com/main/news/headlines/12703.html)

Still too much though... but perhaps after the promised firm-ware (in a year), but by then who knows what will be out?

I was just at a small press briefing with Sony on the F3 and got to fondle the prototype (StudioDaily was present and that's the source of Craig's info).

I think we have to keep in mind that Sony is looking for a higher end solution than the AF-100 encroaching on Red territory.

One of the things that we discussed today with Sony, in fact, is the positioning of the device.

Sony sees this as an ideal second unit camera for F-35 shoots, for example. And once the optional S-Log software upgrade is released, it will be possible to apply identical LUTs to footage from both cameras to enable scene matching.

Another factor here is the Super35 sensor. While Sony declined to provide us specifics about the sensor, it is a new sensor and they claim among other things that it siginificantly reduces "jello-cam."

Another position for this camera is indie filmmakers. Note that while it is recording XDCAM EX 4:2:0 to cards, it outputs 10-bit 4:2:2 via SDI. Makes the nanoFlash or KiPro an ideal companion.

Much more portable than a Red.

Those who might purchase an AF-100 for indie feature might considering forgoing the purchase but rent the F3.

But I think we have to await actual footage from the camera before we make any final judgments.

Ned Soltz

The only advantage I see is your "much more portable" than RED. I'm not sure what portion of the RED market, given its feature set, really is going to go for "much more portable." It looks like it's stuck right in the middle of two market niches, not really satisfying either. Sony might see a void to fill between the two markets but they may just find . . . a void.

Sorry to be critical but if it were a "killer" $20K camera it could be a challenge to RED for less money and faster setup. If it included the Dual Link feature NOW, that might be a claim for example. If it included 50mbps 4:2:2: for those who don't want to start attaching things to it, that would be convenience with a usable 4:2:2 codec. It looks like it's not quite enough to compete against RED and way too much more without too many advantages to cause someone to consider renting over buying an AF100 . . . or renting a RED. It just seems like too many compromises from all sides. What do I know though, maybe the reality TV shows will buy it like hotcakes.

Thanks for your input Ned. (hope all is well)

I just don't get it. The Panasonic AF-100 has everything the F3 is offering outside of dual-link SDI and S-log for work with the high end F-35. And will retail for $4990 (with 1080p60 to boot).

If the F3 is going to be along side the RED offerings or F-35 the 35mbps EX codec stands out like a sore thumb. So this camera really costs a decent amount over $20,000 to get up to the "B-cam" for the upper end cameras with the needed add-ons. Essentially leaving a lot of people in the dust.

It seems they should offer a lower end model at an EX-1/3 pricepoint with the 35mbps codec and SDI output just like the EX series and also offer the higher end camera to interface with their F-35 gear.

As Craig put it, it is in the middle serving no market completely. I want to think there is another model but I do not see what they could take off to lower the price sigificantly.

I will wait and watch but am a little surprised at the price.

I see everyone's point.

Sensor size differentiates the AF-100 and F3. Micro 43 vs Super35 is a big difference.

The true test, though, will be real world tests of both AF-100 and F3.

We live in interesting times.

I am only surprised in the price, now that I am clear on how they are positioning it, in that the dual-link HD-SDI is an add on cost. This is what puts it within shooting distance of Red. Apparently you can't even do overcrank without the software upgrade (depending on which bit of Sony marketing material you read). At 16 grand USD for the box with dual-link and S-log it would be a RED contender otherwise it is neither appealing to the people who want to go upscale from an AF100 or to the indie cinema crowd that now largely use RED.

Sony should be giving them a no-fuss box with the goodies in for one price (save the lens option), then it is a clear sale to all the markets, otherwise it pisses off all except the SRW-9000 shooters who Sony say should own this camera. That market is teenie-tiny to all the others.

Sony have two clear wins on this camera if they follow what I have said above. A 16 grand camera that has a much more cost efficient workflow than RED. Anything else and the value proposition isn't clearly there and the ease of decision becomes much more difficult to swallow.

My biggest gripe? The ridiculous screw mount that Sony say is the same as on the EX1R. A camera with a PL mount HAS to have 3/8" threads! ...and the price is a little high.

I meant to post this earlier but my server has been playing up:

Sony PMW-F3 Announced (http://mikemarriage.lunarfilm.co.uk/Blog/Blog.html)

Here's a graphic comparing the AF-100 sensor size to the Sony PMW-F3 sensor ( made with the AbelCine FOV Calculator )

AbelCineTech - Field of View Calculator (http://www.abelcine.com/fov/)

If I were RED I'd thank Sony for making the Scarlet worth producing again without worrying that it'll cost a bit more than they originally thought.

Ned and Guy, what you describe is exactly why Sony could have had an $8K camera that people might buy instead of a $5K Panny AF100.

The should have made a better camera or a lower price point for this.