Hi,

Long story short, the shotgun mic I use with my Canon XHA1 did not work so well at a loud college football game along the sidelines. Almost everything was clipping.

Last year, some nice folks on this forum recommended this mic:

AKG Perception 170 - Small Diaphragm Cardioid Condenser Microphone

I finally have the spare cash, and was wondering if the above mic is still a good pick? Would it fit well on my Canon XHA1?

The next time I shoot a football game, I really want to capture some good audio (i.e. I need a mic suited to the loud environment).

Suggestions?

Many thanks in advance, I really appreciate it!

Cheers,
Micky

Have you got a friend in a band with a Sure SM57 or SM58? Or you could probably pick one up in a pawn shop anywhere in town. I would use one of my Electrovoice 635s. Autzen stadium doesn't seem like the kind of place you need a sensitive mic like any kind of condenser.

Do you have to mount the mic on the camera? Are you moving around or in a fixed location?

More than likely the clipping occurred at the pre-amplifier stage of your camera, and not the mic.
Your mic as well as the one you ordered should be more than capable to handle the volume levels however the dynamic range of your camera's audio system cannot handle it well, most broadcast games you hear have the microphones going to a truck where the signal has dynamic compressors/limiters that compensate for the loud volumes.probably if your camera has AGC this is probably one of the good times to use it.

hope this helps.

Hey Richard! Nice to chat with a fellow Oregonian. :)

Thanks for tips! I have no friends in bands, but I would not mind dropping the cash on new/used equipment.

Pretty good prices:

Shure SM57-LC Microphone

Shure SM58 Cardioid Microphone Kit - Includes SM58 Cardioid Microphone, Star-Quad Microphone Cable and Matching Color Windscreen (Black)

This one looks interesting:

Electro Voice 635A/B - Omni-Directional Handheld Dynamic ENG Microphone (Black)

Heck, maybe I should pick up both? If you had to pick, which one would you say is better for a (Duck) Football game? :)

Thanks for the suggestions!

Cheers,
Micky

Hi Jay and Gerry! Thanks for the replies, I really appreciate the help.

Do you have to mount the mic on the camera? Are you moving around or in a fixed location?

Doh, sorry, I should have specified. More often than not, I am moving around (typically with a mono-pod). So, the mic would be mounted to the camera.

More than likely the clipping occurred at the pre-amplifier stage of your camera, and not the mic.
Your mic as well as the one you ordered should be more than capable to handle the volume levels however the dynamic range of your camera's audio system cannot handle it well, most broadcast games you hear have the microphones going to a truck where the signal has dynamic compressors/limiters that compensate for the loud volumes.probably if your camera has AGC this is probably one of the good times to use it.

hope this helps.

Thanks for that info! I forget if the XHA1 has AGC, I will have to re-read the docs. I typically shoot manual everything, including audio levels (but I have never played around with any AGC switches/settings).

If this is of any help, the mic I have (er, for the company video camera) is:

Rode NTG-1 Condenser Shotgun Microphone

Thanks all for the help, I greatly appreciate it! :)

Cheers,
Micky

Maybe I'm just cheap, but I wouldn't go out and buy a new mic for a specialty application like this. (High-level ambiance.) Unless you have $$$ to burn, I would save my microphone budget for more demanding applications: Like having a good shotgun with boom and wind protection for outdoor dialog, a decent hyper-cardioid for interior boom, and a lav or two (depending on what kinds of things you shoot.) THOSE are the applications where you need to spend some $$$ to get good quality, low noise, etc. Loud background noise can be done with a $10 microphone in my philosophy.

And, as Mr. Gallegos reminded us, this is certainly a prime application for the built-in limiter.

I have a long-standing preference for Electrovoice over Shure and I would take a 635 any day over a 57/58, It is just a more solid product. But the Shure products are popular with amateur musicians and I'd bet there are half a dozen in local pawn shops.

OTOH! The Rode NTG-1 is rated for "139dB SPL" Even Autzen Stadium doesn't get THAT loud! So the microphone should be able to handle it. Your problem is in the next stage or two. The mic input settings on the camcorder.

Maybe I'm just cheap, but I wouldn't go out and buy a new mic for a specialty application like this. (High-level ambiance.) Unless you have $$$ to burn, I would save my microphone budget for more demanding applications: Like having a good shotgun with boom and wind protection for outdoor dialog, a decent hyper-cardioid for interior boom, and a lav or two (depending on what kinds of things you shoot.) THOSE are the applications where you need to spend some $$$ to get good quality, low noise, etc. Loud background noise can be done with a $10 microphone in my philosophy.

Interesting! Excellent advice. I think I have a tendancy to buy the cheaper stuff when I have the cash, vs. saving for the really good/diverse equipment. Some of this stuff my work provides, but due to the economy, if I want to make my videos better, I have to pay for the extras like the right kind of mics for the different type of situations I might shoot.

I will definitely check out the local pawn shops for the mics you mention... But, then again, it is sounding like the problem is not the mic, it is the camera itself... It is looking like I need to learn how to use its audio features better.

And, as Mr. Gallegos reminded us, this is certainly a prime application for the built-in limiter.

Now that I know what to Google for, I found this thread:

XH-A1 Audio Limiter (http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-xh-series-hdv-camcorders/109735-xh-a1-audio-limiter.html)

No audio limiter unless you use AGC.

I typically shoot manual audio levels... Should I bite the bullet and use the AGC instead? Looking like I might not have an option.

This might be a silly question, but could I connect an external limiter/attenuator between the shotgun and the XHA1 XLR input? If this would be a viable option, what equipment would you suggest?

I have a long-standing preference for Electrovoice over Shure and I would take a 635 any day over a 57/58, It is just a more solid product. But the Shure products are popular with amateur musicians and I'd bet there are half a dozen in local pawn shops.

Thanks for the advice. I like the idea of saving a few bucks also. :)

OTOH! The Rode NTG-1 is rated for "139dB SPL" Even Autzen Stadium doesn't get THAT loud! So the microphone should be able to handle it. Your problem is in the next stage or two. The mic input settings on the camcorder.

Yah, it is looking like that is the case. :(

Thanks so much for the help!

Cheers,
Micky

You might also consider the AT8004, it's a low-sensitivity omni dynamic similar to the EV635. It's $79 everywhere online.
More importantly though, do check the mic input attenuation settings on your camera.
Generally shotguns don't sound good when surrounded by loud noise coming from all directions, but it's also critical that you have matched the camera's input sensitivity to the sensitivity of your mic and the loudness of your environment.
The mic input sensitivity can be overloaded before the signal gets to the recording level controls, that's why it's so important to have this set correctly for each situation and mic.
Some cameras have either attenuation or sensitivity controls built-in, sometimes as switches and sometimes in a menu.
You can also add an external inline attenuator. They are available in switchable or fixed values, usually -5db or -10db is adequate unless you have a really powerful mic connected to a really sensitive input.

You might also consider the AT8004, it's a low-sensitivity omni dynamic similar to the EV635. It's $79 everywhere online.

Nice! Thanks for suggestion:

Audio-Technica AT8004 Handheld Omnidirectional Dynamic Microphone

Not a bad price.

More importantly though, do check the mic input attenuation settings on your camera.
Generally shotguns don't sound good when surrounded by loud noise coming from all directions, but it's also critical that you have matched the camera's input sensitivity to the sensitivity of your mic and the loudness of your environment. The mic input sensitivity can be overloaded before the signal gets to the recording level controls, that's why it's so important to have this set correctly for each situation and mic. Some cameras have either attenuation or sensitivity controls built-in, sometimes as switches and sometimes in a menu.

Interesting... I have never done this before.

Is there a trick to doing this?

For example, with the XHA1, it looks like there is not a limiter unless using AGC; If I am using AGC, don't I lose the ability to match the camera's input sensitivity to the sensitivity of the mic and environment loudness? I guess this hits on your next point:

You can also add an external inline attenuator. They are available in switchable or fixed values, usually -5db or -10db is adequate unless you have a really powerful mic connected to a really sensitive input.

So, in my case (XHA1, AGC off, and the NTG-1), I should experiment with a -5db/-10db inline attenuator... In other words, when I am on location, if I need to limit the audio, I would then plug-in one of the two attenuators? This sounds like a pretty decent solution.

Would you also recommend an inline XLR audio mixer? If so, any suggestions for a brand? Of course, I am not sure if I would want to be lugging around something much larger than a pack of cigarettes. :)

Thanks so much Jay!!!!

Cheers,
Micky

Typically AGC (Automatic Gain Control) is disliked due to the fact that it not only lowers the gain when the noise is too loud but it also turns it up when the ambient noise is too low, (double edge sword) but in your scenario it is unlikely that the noise level will be so soft that it turns the gain up and introducing hiss.
AGC in your scenario is like having a guy riding the gain for you as things get louder.
There isnt going to be a microphone on earth that will solve your problem other than just being better sounding, or having a lower output. adding a limiter or compressor not likely to work as most arent portable not to mention most have line level only, requiring you to have a pre-amp to turn your microphone's mic level to line level for a compressor to work. not to mention the additional cables required.

or

you can just turn on AGC.

GG

No audio limiter unless you use AGC.
I typically shoot manual audio levels... Should I bite the bullet and use the AGC instead? Looking like I might not have an option.
This might be a silly question, but could I connect an external limiter/attenuator between the shotgun and the XHA1 XLR input? If this would be a viable option, what equipment would you suggest?
Camcorder AGC and limiter are identical cousins. Yes, absolutely I would use the built-in facilities of the camcorder. Chances seem excellent that that will completely solve your problem.

I see no reason to use any other external equipment, unless an additional inline (passive) attenuator is needed because you can't crank the gain down far enough on the camcorder. IMHO, a mixer is NOT indicated for this problem. Maybe for some other kind of problem at the other end of the dynamic range.

The salient question, neither asked nor answered, is "what sounds are you after"?

Crowd sounds (behind you), grunts/ collisions on the field (in front), what?

A mixture of both, perhaps?

I can't hazard an answer to a question that hasn't been asked, so, spell it out.

What, exactly, do you want on the soundtrack?


CS

I would suggest just flicking the AGC on for one match and listening to the difference it makes. I think you'll be happier with the outcome than if you bought a new mic and left the audio on manual. Saying that, it's always good to be able to afford a better mic than the stock ones you generally find coming with cameras, but for shooting a football match I think AGC will make a more positive difference.

The salient question, neither asked nor answered, is "what sounds are you after"?
Indeed. I was assuming that Mr. Hulse was simply wanting the ambient sounds of the spectators, and not specific sounds like interviews or on-field speech or noises. My assumption was based on the reputation of Autzen Stadium for being one of the more noisy venues in the league.

Hi everyone! I can't thank you folks enough for the help! I really appreciate it. See inline replies below:

Excellent information everyone! Thanks for sharing your pro knowledge and experience with a noob like me, I greatly appreciate it.

...<snip>... you can just turn on AGC.

Like you say, I should test AGC the next time. I always shoot manual audio, I have gotten it into my head that auto audio sucks, but in this case, it might be for the best. :)

...<snip>... Chances seem excellent that that will completely solve your problem. ...<snip>...

Looks like AGC is my best option! I have not tested AGC in an "arena" situation... I will do this the next time I shoot.

...<snip>... Crowd sounds (behind you), grunts/ collisions on the field (in front), what? ...<snip>...

Doh! Sorry. Crowd noises. So, like people cheering/screaming/yelling/jeering... Last time, I was asked to produce a b-roll type of video, shot from along the sidelines, with a focus on the fans.

I would suggest just flicking the AGC on for one match and listening to the difference it makes. ...<snip>...

Great points. I am not sure why I did not try this. I will definitely test AGC the next time I shoot a game. :)

Indeed. I was assuming that Mr. Hulse was simply wanting the ambient sounds of the spectators, and not specific sounds like interviews or on-field speech or noises. My assumption was based on the reputation of Autzen Stadium for being one of the more noisy venues in the league.

You hit the nail on the head! Sorry that I was not more clear in my original post.

Thanks again everyone!!!! I owe ya'll a beer or two. :)

Have an excellent day!

Cheers,
Micky

I've been using my NTG 1 with the FX1 to record Rugby League games and no distortion.

Hi Gan! Thanks for the help! I appreciate it. :)

Just curious, do you have AGC turned on while shooting audience b-roll?

Thanks!

Cheers,
Micky

Just for kicks did you try the camera's built in mics? I know some people may find this revolting, but in a stadium it might work pretty well. Also it doesn't cost anything to try.

Just for kicks did you try the camera's built in mics? I know some people may find this revolting, but in a stadium it might work pretty well. Also it doesn't cost anything to try.
Indeed. This is one of the VERY few applications where the built-in microphones are likely adequate.

Been there done that. I think Kevin is spot on. A criticism of built-in mics is how they are so "omni" and pickup EVERYTHING which, in this case, is EXACTLY what you want. Flip on the AGC switch and let those stereo mics do their job. You'll get some of that nice roarrrrrrr ambience in the audio. Then, if you don't like the texture, think about a different mic.

If you want to "talk to an individual in all that noise, you'll need the opposite (i.e. you want to eliminate the surrounding noise. There, you'll want a Shure SM58 (not an SM57), Evolution or Electrovoice "Dynamic" mic. A dynamic mic is unpowered and has a smaller "reach" (e.g. will pick up your subject well but the surrounding, not so well). Unfortunately, the A1 puts the switch between XLR and Built-in mics in the menu. Learn it so you can switch back and forth quickly. I'd switch to manual audio for that too.

Also, get some ears on and listen to the world through your camera.

Wow, great ideas!! I am so glad I asked for help. Many thanks to everyone for the help!

Just for kicks did you try the camera's built in mics? I know some people may find this revolting, but in a stadium it might work pretty well. Also it doesn't cost anything to try.

Indeed. This is one of the VERY few applications where the built-in microphones are likely adequate.

Wow, I did not even think of that... I don't think I have used the built-in mic once since I have had my hands on the XHA1. I will definitely try this. :)

Been there done that. I think Kevin is spot on. A criticism of built-in mics is how they are so "omni" and pickup EVERYTHING which, in this case, is EXACTLY what you want. Flip on the AGC switch and let those stereo mics do their job. You'll get some of that nice roarrrrrrr ambience in the audio. Then, if you don't like the texture, think about a different mic.

I can't wait to give this a try!!!! :)

If you want to "talk to an individual in all that noise, you'll need the opposite (i.e. you want to eliminate the surrounding noise. There, you'll want a Shure SM58 (not an SM57), Evolution or Electrovoice "Dynamic" mic. A dynamic mic is unpowered and has a smaller "reach" (e.g. will pick up your subject well but the surrounding, not so well). Unfortunately, the A1 puts the switch between XLR and Built-in mics in the menu. Learn it so you can switch back and forth quickly. I'd switch to manual audio for that too.

Excellent tips! Thanks so much!

Sorry if silly question: The mics you mention, are these hand-hold only, or could I fit them into a shock mount and connect it to the A1?

Also, get some ears on and listen to the world through your camera.

Definitely. I have a nice pair of Sony studio headphones... I always wear them while I shoot (even if I look a little geeky).

Actually, that was the sad thing the last time I was at the football stadium -- I could hear the audio sounding like crap while I was shooting... I knew things were bad, but I was not sure what I could about it; Of course, I was shooting manual audio, and adjusting the audio levels was of no help (it just made the bad-sounding audio quieter).

Again, I can't wait to try out all of these tips/idea. Thanks a billion everyone!!!! :)

Have an excellent day!

Cheers
Micky

Sorry if silly question: The mics you mention, are these hand-hold only, or could I fit them into a shock mount and connect it to the A1?

They are handheld and that's what you want. You have to get the mic close to the source. A shotgun on the camera won't do that. Proper use of a handheld mic is to pretend it's an ice cream cone and you hold it as if you are about to lick it.... up at lip level (not the chin) and less than a tongue length away.

Some "hand-held" mics also have a body shape (straight) that's easier to mount in a camera's shockmount. Some have the classic hand-held tapered body. This would be one more factor you would need to decide when picking a hand-held type mic in the future. Do you want it for hand-held almost all the time, or for those situations in very loud environments when a low-sensitivity dynamic mic works well on-camera for ambient-sound-only-tasks, do you want to also easily mount it there?

Using ANY microphone you can mount ON the camera will be inadequate for something like an interview or stand-up report in a football stadium. (At least for the AmEnglish definition of "football", or the BrEnglish definition of "World Cup") :-) The camera is almost ALWAYS too far away from the source for adequate mic "reach", especially in a noisy ambient like Autzen.

Good advice from everyone.

I'd just like to add -


GO DUCKS!!!!

Good advice from everyone.

I'd just like to add -


GO DUCKS!!!!

+1 :)

Yes thanks all for the pro tips and advice! This forum is the best on the net 'cause of all the cool folks on here.

Also, thanks for the clarification on the hand-held mic usage (Richard, Jay, Les)... I will definitely add this mic to my backpack of equipment and tools. :)

Thanks a billion!

Cheers,
Micky

Hi all,

Just as an update, the SM58 just saved my butt for capturing audio!

Oh, and auto audio levels (which kicks-in AGC on the A1) also did the trick!

I shot with my shotgun mic for XLR input #1, and plugged the SM58 into input #2.

The shotgun mic actually did worse than the SM58 for the really loud/screaming fan situations.

Anyway, thanks all for all of the pro help! Ya'll saved my day!

Now, if only there was a device I could buy to help me become a better videographer!!! Oh well, I guess practice makes perfect. :D

Cheers,
Micky