Hi all,

Over the past few weeks I have been researching prosumer cameras so that I can get serious about my videography hobby. In the end the EX1R won the day but before I shell out the dough I was hoping that some of you may be able to shed some light on the following questions:

Is there any gossip out there about new models of the XDCAM EX series coming from Sony? I'd hate to buy the EX1R and then three weeks later find that a new model has been released.

In terms of development of the line, do any of you have any insights into where Sony may be heading with future development of memory card recording and XDCAMs?

Does Sony have a reasonably predictable interval between model updates and/or enhancements and if so, where are we now in the cycle?

As you can imagine, shelling out for the EX1R is a big step up from the dear old HDR-HC3 's that I have now, so I'm just a tad nervous.

Cheers

Russ

Sony's product cycle varies a lot with the product line.
For the high end consumer HD cams (SR-12 thru CX550) it's been about a year recently.
For the pro cams, less frequent and real unpredictable.
IMO, the EX1r is pretty refined & may not change significantly for a while.
The new New Thing for Sony is the NEX VG 10- a $2K (APS sized chip) Handycam intended to enter competition with the DSLR video revolution. There is lots of speculation that Sony is cooking up a larger Pro version along these lines- maybe for 2011 release... or not.
My view is that the EX1r is a very rich featured, high quality professional camera that produces absolutely fantastic images. This is not a camera that will fall short of the mark for quite a while.
So, if you truely need a professional level camera, and the EX meets your requirements, it's hard to see how you could go wrong with it.
P.S. You might want to give some thought to just how far you want to take your "video Hobby", and what sort of tradeoffs you might be making. The EX is an awful lot of camera, with a significant learning curve. It has scads of features that you may never need beyond just fooling around to see what it does. It is big and heavy for a "handicam" form factor. Honestly, it is at the limits for hand held shooting, and I am one of the many that can hardly get a decent handheld shot with it.
If your honest apprasial of your ambitions make you suspect that the EX may be more than you really need at this time, there are some very interesting small cams that would be a big step up from your current Sony in terms of performance and imagery- The CX550 is absolutely brilliant for such a tiny cam, the new VG10 is bigger, has a few more manual controls, is a truely new type of videocam, and makes great looking images.
Good shooting :)

Thanks Bob,

the decision to purchase the EX1R was made after considerable deliberation and after seeking the opinions of many peers on other fora. Some background:

My wife and I are semi-retired and only work to fund our travels around Australia. We have been faithfully recording these travels using two HDR-HC3 Handycams but the limitations of these are becoming apparent as we gain more experience. We are getting close to the point where we could sell documentaries of our travels.

Friends and relatives are glowing, but also brutally honest in their appraisal of the work that we've done so far and it is their assessment that they would pay to watch our work if we tighten the production a bit, that drives us to strive for better things. This, alone, was certainly not enough to make us decide on the EX1R. During the process of choosing the right camera it was pointed out to me that there is a dearth of stock clips of the Australian Outback and countryside.

I researched this and found it to be true. So, we concluded that we could combine our travels and an opportunity to make some money by creating stock footage of outstanding places that we visit. Clearly, a very good camera would be needed if we are to offer good product to the market.

I have a technical background - 35 years in electronics and IT- and have already read the Manual for the EX1R to be sure that it was not too complicated to be practical, and I'm satisfied that I should be able to become adept at operating it. I agree fully that it is a hefty piece of gear and most of the time will be used for set shots when mounted on a tripod.

We can afford the camera, so it comes down to "will we use it?" I believe that we will because we have both the enthusiasm and, fortunately, the time to do so.

Thank you for your input and I did check out the cameras you mentioned, but I think I'll go mad and get the EX1R. I very much value your opinion that the camera is unlikely to "date" quickly. That was exactly the reassurance I was seeking. Worst case? I can always flog it off if it turns out to be a bad decision.

Cheers

Russ

After reading the above, the only thing I'd add is that for future use stock shots, you may wish to add something like the nanoFlash, and shoot at least 50Mbs and 4:2:2. Potential customers may find the (broadcast approved) codec desirable.

After reading the above, the only thing I'd add is that for future use stock shots, you may wish to add something like the nanoFlash, and shoot at least 50Mbs and 4:2:2. Potential customers may find the (broadcast approved) codec desirable.

I would agree that the nanoFlash is a great addition to this camera especially if you may be selling stock footage. I would suggest capturing the highest bitrate possible and stick with I-Frame only for that purpose.

The EX1/3 cameras will give you absolutely spectacular images if you learn how to use it. If not, the old saying still applies, garbage in garbage out. It does take some time to learn how to get the most out of the camera. And I'm not talking about the technical stuff. Going from your HC3 to the EX will require you to rethink some of your shooting techniques. Do yourself a favor and really practice using manual controls. In auto mode the EX can give very good images but most of the stuff that blows you away from these cameras are done by very good camera ops using manual settings.

A couple of other things to consider that you'll need to shell out for and will find that, because it is for a "pro" camera there is a premium price tag attached:

Extra batteries, There are some very good 3rd party offerings. I like the larger capacity batteries with a D-Tap.

Plenty of storage, both for the camera and for your editing machine

At least a good UV filter - don't skimp on a cheap filter for a $6k camera (I've got the EX3 which still has the IR issue so I had to get an IR/UV filter which runs about $200. But it also provides protection for the lens.

A good tripod is a MUST for this level of camera. Expect to be looking at a minimum of $700 for something that you could get by with. If your doing a lot of long zooms you'll probably find that in order to get smooth pans you could be in the $2-3K range.

Depending on what you're shooting you might want a decent shotgun or wireless lav mic.

Finally an probably most important, especially if you're traveling, is a good case. I use Pelican cases which I absolutely love.

I'm confident that you'll be very happy with the camera.

-Garrett

All I'd add is that I shoot with an EX1 (not "R") and I still can't imagine how I'd have spent 6,000.00 any more productively at the time...

I'd also agree on the Flash Nano...

Thanks Bob,

the decision to purchase the EX1R was made after considerable deliberation and after seeking the opinions of many peers on other fora.
Russ

Sounds like you are on it, Russ!!
Definitely, if you are looking to shoot commercial grade productions, you couldn't go wrong with the EX1r.
As mentioned, just be prepaired to work thru the learning curve, and to make the necessary changes in your shooting habits and techniques.
I would highly recommend Doug Jensen's "Mastering the EX1" DVD and his "Handbook for the EX1" (Vortex Media):
Vortex Media: VIDEO & PHOTO Tools and Training (http://www.vortexmedia.com/DVD_EX1.html)
These educational tools will take a lot of the mystery out of the EX. The "handbook" will live in your camera bag and be useful forever :)

Thanks, everyone, for the replies.

I have taken on board your points (and done my sums) and using Aussie prices the accessories will end up costing more than the camera! Mind you, the same could be said about my fishing tackle when compared to the price of the kayak that I fish from....nothing much changes in life does it?

nanoFlash is now on the list. Storage is covered - at least for the editing machine - we have 18 TB of storage atm, of with about a quarter is used. I will seek further advice on this forum about camera storage. I'm interested (but a little sceptical) about these adapters that mount cheaper forms of memory.

Additional batteries is an interesting one. Because the camera is 12 Volt, I can run it from my car, my caravan, the battery I use for my echo sounder and so on. The echo sounder battery is enough to run the camera for about 9 hours going on the specifications I've read. It's relatively small (I could wear it in some sort of pouch clipped to the tripod or my trouser belt.) So I reckon I might get just one genuine spare battery and improvise with the rest. The 12 Volt operation was actually the deal clincher when it came to choosing the camera because we are travelers and everything we own has to be able to run from 12 Volts. (TV, Laptops, Stereo, water pumps etc, all 12V and powered by solar panels.)

Hadn't thought about filters - definitely on the list now. We have a good shotgun mic. but have never used it because the HC3 cameras we have at the moment don't have a mic. input....dohhh! Will definitely be saving for lav mics, but they might have to come a little while after the main cash hit. Thoroughly agree about the Pelican case. We use them now for all of our electronics.

Tripod. Aaaaarrrgh! One bad thing about traveling permanently is that you have to be able to fit all of your worldly possessions into a motor vehicle and caravan (trailer, to those based in the US). We are at capacity now, so something will have to go to fit a tripod in. Weight is an issue as well, as we are right on the Gross Vehicle Mass for the vehicle and the 'van right now. I know that the Sony tripod that we use for the HC3's wont be up to the task, but buying one for the EX1R is going to be as tough a decision as deciding on a camera was!

And the Vortex Media training material...you must be psychic Bob. My next post was going to be a question about just how good is their stuff? I was wondering why their training came on three disks and VASST's EX1 training was only on one disk? Anybody been able to check both of these out and have an opinion about them?

Cheers

Russ

There are 3 or 4 EX1 training DVDs out there. I have seen them all, and I have watched the forum comments for several years- my observation is that there is a pretty solid consensus that the Vortex program is the most comprehensive, well organized, and best presented/produced of the lot.
Some of the others are quite good as well, but if you are just buying one, the Vortex is really all you need.

Russell,
I went through a similar decision when upgrading from an XH-A1. I went with the EX1R in September and am very glad I did. If you've exhausted the capabilities of the HC3, there are many features in the EX1R that you will love from the histogram, colored focus peaking to physical switches for the audio and refined menu structure that reflects two years of field experience. The programmed transitions and 3 fully manual zoom rings are killer. I can finally setup focus and exposure on strictly the LCD with confidence the shot will be right.

If you plan to do handheld, consider the Hoodman Loupe for the EX1 and the Westside AV plate with small shoulder rest. It will also hold your Nano.

Take a look in the private classified section of DVInfo. There was a nice set of Miller sticks and Vinten head for sale at a good price. That will solve your tripod problem. Don't cheap out on the tripod. If you do, you will regret it and end up buying a good one in the end so "buy your third tripod first". :-)

Also, to save you some research on SXS cards, the most popular strategy I have seen is to have enough cards that you don't have to offload during a shoot. Do that at EOD when you can concentrate and avoid human error. Also, it's an advantage to have fewer large cards vs many small cards (subject to the budget of course). I'm only using Sony SxS or SxS-1. YMMV.

I am an EX3 owner and I found the Vortex Media materials to be invaluable. They may seem expensive, but I figured if I was going to spend $8000+ on a camera package, I might as well become an expert at it! And I was right, even though I have been a professional shooter for many years, there are little tricks and advice that I use every day now. I can't imagine going on a shoot without my book in my bag.

And to add my advice on tripods: This is an area where I recommend you have to spend twice the amount that you want to spend. I know, I know. Good tripods cost a lot of money, but with good reason. They hold their value. Cameras come and go, tripods remain! Just know that if you take care of it, you'll be able to sell it later for at least 60% of what you spent for it. But YOU MUST GET A GOOD TRIPOD. There is nothing worse than fighting a cheap tripod day after day, but not being willing to get another because you have already spent $$ on this one. Cut to the chase and don't buy two tripods, one to get you to realize that you should have spent $$$$ in the first place. You will hate hate hate a bad tripod, but a good tripod is a joy forever! This is only my advice, take it or leave it!

Russell,

Just be aware that the transition from consumer grade to professional grade can and will be a money pit. You have already witness that in the above posts from the 'extras' you will require. I certainly agree with all of the recommendations and you can already see the costs more than doubling.

What are you going to be editing with? Final Cut? Please keep in mind the cost of Final Cut Studio as well. You may then possibly need After Effects & Photoshop etc. Of course there are Windows based editors as well, but they still cost.

Not wanting to be a party pooper, but these are a fact of life when you move up to pro grade. But the results can be and are stunning. Just wanting to keep you up to date with the overall big picture.

Best wishes with your endeavours.

Hi Russell,

Going back to your original question about cameras around the corner. We know that Sony will be putting out a full frame sensor shallow depth of field camera within the next 3 to 6 months. This is the big one for many. No one is sure of cost. Sony says affordable but speculation is all over the place from even the most seasoned shooters wondering where this camera will land in the pricing end of things. There is also a 3D camera coming out that will be in competition with Panasonic's $20,000 3D camera.

The camera you are looking at, the EX1R is a new revision to the EX1. The EX3 received a tepid revision a few months back. There is no scuttlebutt about anything coming out in the EX line in the near future.

There are a fair number of threads popping up on numerous forums of late asking a similar question to yours. The general response is to wait for the new cameras to come out with those being Panasonic's AF100 (AF101 in PAL land) and the unnamed Sony camera I mentioned above.

Frankly, I would hang tight and put your camera money aside and spend new money on your editing environment or good lighting gear or good microphones.

Below is a link to a page with a video interview with a Sony rep about the new 35mm, full frame sensor camera that is due out in a few months.

http://www.macvideo.tv/camera-technology/features/index.cfm?articleId=3240098

There is a new niche of large sensor video cameras that are creating quite a buzz because they offer shallow depth of field and are more compatible with film style lenses, like film primes. Great for dramatic videos but for a mom & pop crew like you folks seem to be, more of a hassle. For lightweight run & gun 'doc' style videos like yours, the EX1R sounds perfect. Just my 2 cents.

There is a new niche of large sensor video cameras that are creating quite a buzz because they offer shallow depth of field and are more compatible with film style lenses, like film primes. Great for dramatic videos but for a mom & pop crew like you folks seem to be, more of a hassle. For lightweight run & gun 'doc' style videos like yours, the EX1R sounds perfect. Just my 2 cents.

I think 2011 is going to be an interesting year indeed.
The brand new Sony APS chip NEX VG10 is selling like hotcakes. I shot a big event with one a couple of weeks ago. I had also shot the same event last year with the EX1. It is interesting to compare the final BR delivery products.
The EX footage is, of course, excellent and had the sharp, colorful, sort of hyper realistic look of "video".
The VG10 footage leaves a different impression. The DOF, even at f- 5 or 6 provides a subtle, but distinct difference from the EX. The footage is maybe not quite as laser sharp (maybe the lens is not as good, maybe it's just the impression the shallow DOF makes on someone used to looking only at video??), but doesn't look objectionably "soft". Color is very good. Overall, the footage is very pleasing to look at. Maybe it does look more like film. Of course the VG10 is just a first edition consumer cam, but it certainly gives a hint of the possibilities.
For 2011, I would not be surprised to see Sony come out with a larger APS cam, with EX1 features, interchangable lenses, etc. in the same price range as the EX. Or, to avoid eating into EX1r sales at the moment, maybe they will introduce the big 35mm pro version at a higher price, and save the APS version for a later date.
Whatever they release next, it seems to me that this is likely to be the direction for 2011 & going forward.
Sony is going to seriously target the DSLR revolution.
On the other hand, I do believe that the EX1 may grow old, but will not be dying anytime soon :)

We know that Sony will be putting out a full frame sensor shallow depth of field camera within the next 3 to 6 months. This is the big one for many. No one is sure of cost. Sony says affordable but speculation is all over the place from even the most seasoned shooters wondering where this camera will land in the pricing end of things.

Frankly, I would hang tight and put your camera money aside and spend new money on your editing environment or good lighting gear or good microphones.

Below is a link to a page with a video interview with a Sony rep about the new 35mm, full frame sensor camera that is due out in a few months.

MacVideo - Camera Technology - Features - Sony 35mm sensor and 3D camera prototypes on show at IBC 2010 (http://www.macvideo.tv/camera-technology/features/index.cfm?articleId=3240098)

You know what Andrew? I'm so glad that I'd made the purchasing decision for the EX1R, but not committed to an order, because I think I will wait around and have a look at the 35mm prosumer version when it's released. Bob seems pretty pleased with the results he got from the consumer version.

Perhaps I'll have an unenviable choice to make between two excellent cameras?

David, I edit now in Vegas Pro and am happy with it, so no need to spend bucks there. I already have Photoshop as well. Edit PC's are laptops and have the obvious limitations, but I just don't have the room for desktop PC's when we travel. I've learnt to live with those limitations and use two laptops to render out final projects.

Thanks to all who chimed in about the tripod. It's not that I don't want to buy it, and I will, but logistically I'm going to have some real problems storing it when we're traveling.

Cheers

Russ.

Yes Russell the EX1R is an excellent camera. Don't get me wrong. I run with an EX3 which is largely the same camera in terms of it's output quality. I simply think there are so many market pressures out there right now that with these "game changing" cameras about to be released it would be a good idea to wait, not just for these cameras but others that could be released as well. January is a big time for camera announcements. Both Panasonic and now Sony have jumped the queue in terms of their pre-announcements due to the mind share shift that the DSLR craze of this past year (or two) has created.

Your approach will hold you well in your ultimate decision.

Hi Russell,

Just to give you more to think about and another perspective. I shoot now primarily with an EX3 into a nanoFlash. I produce both independent dramatic movies as well as documentaries and event videos.

The thing you shold consider is what will be best for your projects. While there is a huge craze right now for shallow DOF and the DSLR is a very cost effective way to get it, there are some tradeoffs. The current codecs used do not hold up well to any heavy color correction or SFX. So, you better get what you want in camera or you could be screwed in post. I know several fellow filmmakers who learned this the hard way, translated means the expensive way. Explaining why you need extra budget to re-shoot a scene is never fun and sometimes impossible if you can't get your talent back.

Also, depending on your project, a shallow DOF camera could be impractical. I'm starting a documentary where we'll have a lot of fast run and gun, quick setup shots. Not possible with the current selection of 4/3 sensor cameras (at least that are affordable to independents). There's nothing more ugly that out of focus HD, at least in my opinion.

I don't think I'd shoot a documentary such as the one I'm working on now with shallow DOF as my primary type of shot. I love them in dramas, but they don't give me the feel I want for a documentary about the busy world around us.

And, shooting event videos would be almost impossible without a fairly deep DOF. I will probably use some shallow DOF shots for very dramatic effect in my docu and will most likely be using a DSLR or one of the newer more ergonomically set up cameras coming out (we'll be shooting over the next year). But they won't be the bulk of my shots.

Really let your project needs dictate the camera you end up with. I'm not trying to persuade you to buy an EX1r now. If you can wait and don't need a camera now then wait. But remember that there will always be "the new best thing" coming out soon. Heck, I know people who have been waiting to buy a camera for over a year based on Scarlet rumors. The digital camera industry is changing so rapidly that it will be impossible to keep up. It has almost become as bad as the computer industry. The good news is that really good used equipment is becoming more and more available. And, most of the accessories you purchase could last you several cameras if you purchase quality.

Just more things to think about. Just make sure that waiting to see what the next offerings are doesn't cause you to miss a shot because you don't have a camera.

A final thought for scenic shots, Ansel Adams perfected the use of f64 and huge DOF.

Good luck,
Garrett

Shallow DoF is an effect. I was watching a documentary a few weeks back and they had a talking head in a wonderful location. The kind of location you'd want to see.

However the genius director or cameraman had shot it with such shallow DoF that all you saw was a blur behind the subject.

It rendered doing the interview in that location pointless.

I know I am shouting at the windmills with this and I suspect the battle is already lost, but content comes first. Remember when Quantel first came out? All the TV directors went mad with it. These days those effects are only used when appropriate because the novelty wore off. You don't want your reporter standing in front of the Houses of Parliament with the presenter in hard focus and the buildings themselves a total blur. But you might want a certain shot where you want the viewers attention firmly on the foreground.

The EX1 is a great all round camera. Its a workhorse. Certainly when Sony bring out their DSLR beater I'll be taking a look but it'll be a secondary camera for certain uses. Another tool I can bring out to play. Just like my little Canon consumer camera that I had fixed to a mount in a sports car the other day where an EX1 simply wouldn't fit.

I know I am shouting at the windmills with this and I suspect the battle is already lost, but content comes first.

Hey Marcus, You are definitely not shouting in vein. I'm still looking for the script and director who will let me shoot in the very old style, where cameras were so big that you couldn't do a bunch of dolly and crane shots.

I'm considered a minimalist among my other camera compadres but I still long for the movie I can shoot with locked down cameras. Really plan out the shot and think through every detail of what's in the frame,

As you said, shallow DOF has its place and definitely has become one of the most abused and misused techniques in recent indie films.

Garrett

Very good comments.
The shallow DOF, DSLR look is quite the fad right now, but from my limited experience with the Sony VG10, I'm thinking of it as a bit of a specialized sort of thing- narrative film, "arty" stuff, maybe not so much the grunt & groan doco & event shooting
The VG10 has been fun to work with, and I'm still learning about the strong and weak points of big chip shooting (you definitely have to watch the focus like a hawk). The look can be quite attractive, but I'm not sure I would want to be restricted to that- particularly for documentary type shooting.
I would never hesitate to use the EX for a doc, or run 'n gun shooting. Plus, with the fast EX lens, 1/2" chips, zoom, etc. you can set up a shot to manuver the DOF to a significant degree.
I might add that there is more to the look than just DOF. There are differences in the character of the large chip image (at least with the VG10) that go beyond DOF which may or may not be what you want for a particular project.
If I could only have one camera, I think I would probably stick with the EX.

Thank you all. Geez, I'm more confused than ever now, but the good thing is that all of this peer knowledge will help to ensure that when I do open the wallet, the money will be spent in the best possible way.

Garrett, you make a very good point about whether the work I do would be best done with an EX1R or a shallow DOF camera and having reviewed some of my material, shallow DOF would have been nice in a few scenes but not such a big deal if I didn't use it. Let's face it, I don't have it now!

Bob, from your experimentation, if I were to shoot a doco largely with the EX1R and mix in a few scenes of shallow DOF stuff shot with the consumer VG10 camera, would the quality difference be so pronounced that the average Joe Public would notice? This assumes that the end product is most likely going to DVD and maybe Blue-Ray for a couple of users. I cannot in my wildest dreams ever imagine selling anything to a broadcaster.

The reason I ask is that this could be a way of having both, albeit as a compromise. I simply can't afford Prosumer cameras for both, given that my productions are essentially for friends and family.

Cheers

Russ

Bob, from your experimentation, if I were to shoot a doco largely with the EX1R and mix in a few scenes of shallow DOF...

The reason I ask is that this could be a way of having both, albeit as a compromise. I simply can't afford Prosumer cameras for both, given that my productions are essentially for friends and family.

As an alternative you could get a camera like the EX1r and say a Canon Rebel T2i that could double as a good still cam and be used for specialty shallow DOF shots. This is something I'm considering bu since I'm a Nikon still shooter I'm hoping Nikon comes out with something in the D700 next generation range that will give a good clean HDMI signal. That would allow me to use it for special shots and capture to my nonFlash for better post capabilities.

Just to add to your variations.

Garrett

Bob, from your experimentation, if I were to shoot a doco largely with the EX1R and mix in a few scenes of shallow DOF stuff shot with the consumer VG10 camera, would the quality difference be so pronounced that the average Joe Public would notice?

I'm sure you could mix the footage successfully, and I do think it would probably be a very good idea to experiment with a less expensive DSLR to explore the big chip issue. There is a lot of commotion about shooting with big chips, but outside of the "film maker" crowd, I do not believe it is anywhere close to being a mainstream approach. In a way, there is a little more smoke then fire on this topic for the sort of applications we are discussing in this thread.
As I had mentioned before, the EX is perfectly capable of significantly shallow DOF. If there is little motion in the frame, you can open the iris fully, jack the shutter speed up to whatever is necessary (or use an external ND filter along with the internal one), zoom the lens a bit, and those 1/2" chips will provide quite shallow DOF. You can set the programmed "Shot Transition" feature and the EX will give you one of those cinematic rack focus shots that's about as good as anything you've seen from Hollywood.
I've noticed that the VG10, even at mid range f-stops, still has fairly shallow DOF that is hard to escape from. Which means that you've constantly got to keep the subject in sharp focus, or you've got an unusable shot. Unless you are shooting with a high quality monitor, it's hard to tell for sure from the LCD (even tho it is hi def) that you are on the money. Where the bad news is usually discovered is in post, which is a little too late :(
Pro versions of the big chip cams should have peaking, etc. which will help, but it's still something you have to constantly stay on top of. Maybe not a problem on a movie set, but not always easy for run 'n gun.
You are accustomed, more or less, to the sort of shooting and results that you would get from the EX because of your prior experience. The big chip cameras are a different sort of paradigm. I would advise against purchasing an expensive pro version without carefully exploring the landscape with something fairly affordable like the Canon Rebel, or maybe the new Sony NEX 5 (It's the still camera version of the VG10- maybe $700-$800- but shoots very similar video to the VG10).
Honestly, I think part of Sony's strategy, jumping into this market first with the VG10 instead of a pro model, was because they could provide shooters a big chip experience in a video cam form factor for only $2K- and $800 of that is the lens- so it's a $1,200 body. People can get their feet wet on the cheap; if they love it, maybe they will have the confidence to move up to the pro model and stick with the Sony brand. People who are +/- about it will still end up with a very nice big chip cam to supplement their mainstay equipment, and haven't broke the bank over it.
At the end of the day, the Sony EX series has been absolutely one of their most successfull pro cameras.
It carries the Sony Cine Alta badge.
They are still selling lots of them.
There is a reason for all of that.

I disagree with advice to wait for the big chip cameras to arrive and settle. Here's a good article on it by Alister Chapman: XDCAM-USER.com Micro 4/3, Super 35, DSLR and the impact on traditional Pro Camcorders. (http://www.xdcam-user.com/?p=1040)

For the OP's "tripod-less" travel videos for friends and family, I think the EX1R is a spectacular if not totally overkill, upgrade from the HC3, no video DSLR with all their shortcomings needed. As someone who's come up the same route of outgrowing lesser cams vs downsizing from Pro-cams, I think in many ways, the video DSLR cameras are a step backward for someone that's worked on the craft and simply outgrown a consumer handycam. I think the EX1R is a gargantuan step forward and will be a great teacher of the other important aspects of the craft such as storytelling, lighting, audio, composition, grading etc.

I think the EX1R is a gargantuan step forward and will be a great teacher of the other important aspects of the craft such as storytelling, lighting, audio, composition, grading etc.

Amen to that.
Alister Chapman's article was spot on as well.

I just ordered an EX1r from B&H. I was tempted by the Canon XF305, it seems a toss up, but figuring I already have the Sony .8x wide angle adapter and a Century .55x fisheye for my EX1, plus lots of extra batteries and cards, it was a no brainer. It's an awesome camera. I'm hoping to be in a position to buy an Epic when it's released, or soon thereafter.

Look at the review of the Canon 5D MKII from Philip Bloom, and can asure you, that your next movie/commercial/documentary will be shot with a DSLR.
For weddings/shows/sport events/ENG-work however, the professional video-cam is still king.
Four big advantages of the DSLR over the videocam for the jobs i mentioned are: DoF, Low light, size/weight and price

I wouldn't be so sure about that if I were you. The only real advantages of a DSLR are the shallow
depth of field, and the low light shooting you get from the big chips. And against that, you have the
moire and aliasing (you DO know, those stills cameras actually skip lines when producing video
right), plus the form factor is all wrong to shoot video with. And that is why Panasonic is producing the
AF 100, coming out Dec. 27th, Sony is putting out their big 35mm camera in early 2011 and has already
released the consumer NEX VG10.....and I bet others will be jumping in soon as well. These cameras will
have the advantages (depth of field and low light shooting) of a DSLR, as they have big chips, but they are
actually OPTIMIZED FOR VIDEO, NOT STILLS!!! So, my prediction is.......big chip VIDEO cameras
will be the new 'fad'.

My PMW 350 is very comparable, if not slightly better than a 5D Mk2 in low light. The other night I shot something under moonlight alone! Sure it was grainy but it would be feasible for a documentary in desperate times.

Picture quality wise, I think DSLRs are not as good as a decent HD camcorder either. The resolution is lower, the compression is severe, the rolling shutter turns movement to jelly and they alias like hell. For extreme shallow DoF they are great but that effect is now so accessible, cheap and overused that I am becoming very bored of it.

DSLRs are however very useful for covert filming when you don't want to stand out. They are a great tool for specific purposes but don't replace a proper video camera. Having one a B cam/production stills camera represents great value, especially with the price of the 550D.

My PMW 350 is very comparable, if not slightly better than a 5D Mk2 in low light. The other night I shot something under moonlight alone! Sure it was grainy but it would be feasible for a documentary in desperate times.

This is moon shot with EX3 and ND1 on - http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/1572004-post8.html - no grain at all, even after this huge compression still looks and plays very well.

Picture quality wise, I think DSLRs are not as good as a decent HD camcorder either. The resolution is lower, the compression is severe, the rolling shutter turns movement to jelly and they alias like hell. For extreme shallow DoF they are great but that effect is now so accessible, cheap and overused that I am becoming very bored of it.
Absolutely correct!

DSLRs are however very useful for covert filming when you don't want to stand out. They are a great tool for specific purposes but don't replace a proper video camera. Having one a B cam/production stills camera represents great value, especially with the price of the 550D.

We are using 5D to present a bad camera used to shoot commercial on our show right now! Works like charm...hahaha, you don't need to try that very hard... 5D does its video job perfectly poorly!
Look at the chart below and make some conclusions on your on
Cheers

Agree Mike the low light performance of the PMW-350 is fantastic.

Luben where did you find that resolution chart?

Oh my goodness. Look how good the RED stands up on that chart even against the Sony F35. Wow!

Thanks for posting that up Luben.

We are about to see a bifurcation in the industry. Several of the posters are alluding to it. Keep in mind as Canon tweaks its DSLRs it also just came out with the XF series 300s and now 100s. The latter are fixed lens 1/3" MPEG2 4:2:2 codec.

I think they set the divide well, XF is run and gun with a codec that holds up in post. The EOS is large chip, interchangeable lens for a low price. From the people I've spoken to at Canon (just reps at trade shows) they don't seem to have an interest in making a large chip video camera. What makes the DSLRs attractive is the relatively low prices for the body compared to video cameras. It'll give you something to use with care and handling until Sony and Panny get their big guns out.

While S&P may have a more video friendly body than Canon, I don't think they'll be run and gun cameras. Even on the high end there was the divide between 2/3" cameras and digital film cameras. The needs are different. Of course some hope and expect a "merger" for their "acquisition" there may be a host of issues that may need to improve for the "one camera to rule them all" to occur.

Hey Marcus, You are definitely not shouting in vein. I'm still looking for the script and director who will let me shoot in the very old style, where cameras were so big that you couldn't do a bunch of dolly and crane shots.

I'm considered a minimalist among my other camera compadres but I still long for the movie I can shoot with locked down cameras. Really plan out the shot and think through every detail of what's in the frame,

As you said, shallow DOF has its place and definitely has become one of the most abused and misused techniques in recent indie films.

Garrett

Right on Garrett! DOF has a place but so many shooters right now dont even think of composition and just fuzz everything. The EX is a great camera and always surprising. It has an always surprising noise floor, a solid codec and tons of control. Oh, and if you do want to lose the background, its nice how far you can push it back with even the native lens. It just ran as b-cam on a shoot with an MX and pairs up great. IMO better than 5Ds and 7Ds. You can capture quite a bit of DR out of it with the menus. Its versatile and if you get one Russell and the next cam comes out, you'll have something to pair it with well :)

Hi Russell: The EX1R is great, (I just got one in the last month) but after reading all the posts I thought I would throw a different idea into the mix.

How about a Sony HXR-MC50U & a GoPro Hero. The MC50U sells in the $1,500 range. Looks like it might be good for life on the road. Obviously it's a step down from an EX1R, but given plenty of light these little cameras seem to do pretty well. Also If you'll be doing a lot of handheld shooting you might find it more comfortable than an EX1R, which is OK but awkward. It could be used with a smaller tripod, which you said is a concern. Also no need for special insurance with a less expensive camera. I'm going to get one of these myself for use as a wide shot during events.

For audio if you won't be recording interviews and doing complicated setups, you may be OK just with the on-camera mic. The Sony has a small shotgun on it. Can still plug in an external mic or a wireless.

Here's a sample clilp with a pretty wide range of footage in it: YouTube - First video with my New Sony HXR-MC50U! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8dYtik55tM). Adam Wilt has also recently done one of his great reviews on it.

You would also have room in your budget for a fun action/sports camera like the GoPro Hero. The company is very good at marketing so don't know how solid it truly is, but seems pretty good for shooting 1920x1080 at less than $500. Very basic, but the demo footage is pretty impressive for such a tiny camera. Could give you some interesting shots that you'd never attempt with an expensive (and heavier) camera. It also does time lapse recording, which is one of the nice features on the EX1R — but something lacking I think on the MC50U.

You'd also still have money available for some nice accessories, like a screw-in wide angle adapter and a circular polarizer filter.
I know that these little cameras wouldn't be much good for collecting stock footage for later sale, but thought I'd mention them as options -- especially as you mentioned your target audience would be friends and family.

The only thing that I have to say about 5D/7D is - "for every train there is a passenger"!

Regarding the 5D or 7D just remember one little thing - what do you do when You would like to post your video material here or YouTube or any other place on the internet - you compress it so hard (everyone usually apologizes for the quality) with H.264!! If you do not remember what compression is used on 5D and 7D, the answer is - H.264
The difference in the Film Industry and the so called “revolutionary technology” is that the one is looking for a way to record uncompressed most of the time wile the other is oriented for web streaming or viewing on HD TV set or computer screen.

Just my 2c
Good luck to you

Cheers

Hi Russell: The EX1R is great, (I just got one in the last month) but after reading all the posts I thought I would throw a different idea into the mix.

How about a Sony HXR-MC50U & a GoPro Hero. The MC50U sells in the $1,500 range. Looks like it might be good for life on the road.

Hello Keith,

thanks for the ideas. I actually already have a Go Pro Hero "Surf" camera and it's neat in its own way. I used it recently to film birds at a birdbath. They splash water everywhere with their wings when bathing, so using a non-waterproof camera was not an option. It took the birds a minute or two to work out that the camera wasn't going to harm them, but after that they played happily as I filmed. I made no concessions to lighting or anything else, but was happy with the result.

He is the clip on Vimeo:

Bird Bath on a Busy Day on Vimeo

I've tried underwater shots but lighting will be necessary to get decent shots. Fish and coral lose their brilliance with the natural light filters in seawater.

As for the EX1.....after all of the to-ing and fro-ing, I have decided that it is the right camera for what we do. I will also get a nanoFlash unit so that I can take Stock film clips of Australian scenery (very much in short supply) in 4:2:2. I will be ordering it soon.

For arty farty shots with shallow depth of field I will get a Canon 60D or similar (body only) and pair it up to the extensive collection of Canon EF-S lenses that I already have for my EOS 20D. At least I can save some money that way.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone, both on this forum and others, whom have contributed their time and knowledge and so help me to make the decision to buy an EX1R.

Cheers

Russ

Hi Russ.
Thanks for posting the bird bath video, I can see a lot of uses for a little camera like that!
Now I know it's kind of late to bring this up as you've made a decision (just what you need, more choices!!!) -- but have you looked at the new Canon XF300? I see in your post that you may get a Nanoflash so you can record at higher bitrate. For what it's worth, the Canon natively records 4:2:2 video at 50Mbps onto CF cards. Pretty much a direct competitor to the EX1R. I really had a tough time deciding between the two.
I'm happy with my decision to get the EX1R, but next camera upgrade I'll be getting my hands on all contenders for full day tests. So many little things you don't really notice until you've shot with it in a variety of situations. Hope you keep us in the loop as to how you like your new camera when you get it.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone, both on this forum and others, whom have contributed their time and knowledge and so help me to make the decision to buy an EX1R.

Cheers

Russ

Russ,
You will be a very happy camper with the EX1r, and will have a lot of fun learning to use it.
If you really take the time to traverse the learning curve carefully, it will propel you several levels higher in your video production skills.
Best of luck

Agree Mike the low light performance of the PMW-350 is fantastic.

Luben where did you find that resolution chart?
Hi Paul,
Thank you for the question. I work intensively with RED and it is a blesing! The DIT on my last show knows all the big guys at RED and he has all kind of information and charts regarding RED and other cameras. Hope that helps.
Cheers

Thanks Luben great info.

Well, this thing ended up bigger than Ben Hur. I digested the advice of many on this and other fora and ended up going completely insane and spent over $18,000.00 on stuff that was recommended to me.

So, next week I should take delivery of the PMW-EX1R, a couple of BPU-60 batteries, an extra 32GB SxS card, RODE shotgun mic, Sennheiser wireless lav mic,nanoFlash unit and two 32 GB CF cards to go with it, Miller 1852 tripod system, a Zoom H1 recorder, custom cases for the gear, cords and cables.

I have moved from "it doesn't matter if I get work to pay for the camera" to "Jesus Christ! I hope I can get some work to pay for all of this!"

Still, the wife hasn't threatened me with divorce and I do my first wedding in February - even if it will be a "love job". At least I'll have something for my portfolio.

Thanks again, everyone, for the considered responses to my ponderings. Be prepared for a barrage of questions as I try to figure out how to make it all work.

Cheers

Russ

Regarding the 5D or 7D just remember one little thing - what do you do when You would like to post your video material here or YouTube or any other place on the internet - you compress it so hard (everyone usually apologizes for the quality) with H.264!! If you do not remember what compression is used on 5D and 7D, the answer is - H.264
But there's H264 and H264, the quality varying widely with bitrate and other factors.

And the REAL problem with aliasing is not that it necessarily looks so bad immediately, or even through the edit, but that it can cause problems at the final stage, when the material gets compressed more heavily.

So, an aliased image will require a higher bitrate than the same image without aliasing, for the same quality and using H264 in each case.

It may not sound obvious, as it's easy to think that if you can't see any problem on the original material, so what? The theory is that aliasing on video will move in the opposite direction to a moving object that is it's source. It may just seem like a bit of "twinkling" to the eye on the original - but will cause the motion estimation part of a codec disproportionate problems, cause it to waste data rate, or drop quality.

David hits on key points about H.264 and compression.

The people that I've spoken to at Canon (not higher level people) have said they have no intention of changing the form factor of their DSLRs (which does not preclude coming out with a video form factor camera if they were so motivated). I've often thought the next step in their evolution would be a camera or firmware upgrade which would allow the complete (albeit already pixel row skipped) signal out of HDMI. That would allow an Apple ProRes recording rather than H.264.

Some people have assumed that the given that the DSLRs H.264 is "better" then that found in AVCHD cameras because it has a higher data rate. Others have pointed out that the DSLR recording is actually only I and P frames (I do not know this directly) rather than IBP GOP. That would be an example in which the higher data rate may possibly be lower quality given the inefficiency of the codec in DSLRs. That would could also mean another "evolution" would be DSLRs that can record 24mbps AVCHD with greater efficiency.

Of course one would argue that the above two things are addressed in the Panasonic AF100 but it remains to be seen what real world results are once we get based the marketing hype stage and real world workflows are engaged.

It may be there's another generation to go before large chip sensor cameras work through the "kinks" in the price range of the EX1

Russell -- that sounds terrific. One more item you might consider if you aren't aware of it: instructional DVD set for the EX1 and EX1R by Doug Jensen (Vortex Media), who is one of the regulars here on DVInfo. It was included when I got my camera last month. Good way to learn the basics.

I've often thought the next step in their evolution would be a camera or firmware upgrade which would allow the complete (albeit already pixel row skipped) signal out of HDMI. That would allow an Apple ProRes recording rather than H.264.
Sorry Craig, that won't really help. Even if you recorded uncompressed, let alone ProRes, all that would mean is that the motion aliasing gets faithfully preserved through the main production chain - ready to hit the final coder and mess it up. The only answer is to not let the front end of the camera produce the aliasing in the first place.

Unfortunately, the only easy way of doing that with DSLR type chips severely reduces the still capability of the camera. So not much use in a DSLR...... ;-)
Of course one would argue that the above two things are addressed in the Panasonic AF100 but it remains to be seen what real world results are ......
The two things that the AF100 really addresses are usability etc, and in quality terms by putting an optical low-pass filter on the chip, which is still fundamentally a 12 megapixel still camera chip. It seems that the AF100 chip will still pixel-skip - but the OLPF will mean that the aliasing level will be substantially reduced. That's a big step forward - but don't then expect the AF100 to have good resolution as a still camera!

It seems that the F3 will have a dedicated video sensor, so no need to pixel-skip at all. The implication is it will give better performance still, and I'd expect substantially in terms of sensitivity. That's likely to be reflected in the extremely low noise figures being quoted, and that's what means they can sensibly start to consider 10 bit recording and S-log. There's no point even thinking about that in cameras with higher basic noise levels.

Russell -- that sounds terrific. One more item you might consider if you aren't aware of it: instructional DVD set for the EX1 and EX1R by Doug Jensen (Vortex Media), who is one of the regulars here on DVInfo. It was included when I got my camera last month. Good way to learn the basics.

Hi Keith,

Already done! Winging its way over from the Yooonited States as I type this. I actually ordered it before I ordered the camera.

Thanks

Russ